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German Intelligence Employee Arrested On Suspicion of Spying For US On Bundestag

Posted by Soulskill on from the and-you-thought-the-NSA-thing-was-winding-down dept.

New submitter Plumpaquatsch writes: Deutsche Welle reports: "A member of Germany's foreign intelligence agency has been detained for possibly spying for the U.S. The 31-year-old is suspected of giving a U.S. spy agency information about a parliamentary inquiry of NSA activities. During questioning, the suspect reportedly told investigators that he had gathered information on an investigative committee from Germany's lower house of parliament, the Bundestag. The panel is conducting an inquiry into NSA surveillance on German officials and citizens; yesterday an ex-staffer told it the NSA was 'totalitarian' mass collector of data."

74 comments

  1. Gentlemen.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...we've found ourselves a scapegoat.

    1. Re:Gentlemen.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if they have ways of making him talk.

    2. Re:Gentlemen.... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Beer?

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    3. Re:Gentlemen.... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      That would be exceedingly stupid. The real problem is that the US paid this guy and thereby demonstrated that it does not have "friends", just servants and victims. That is not an attitude that is compatible with being a member of the modern world.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    4. Re: Gentlemen.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which modern world are you living in, friend? Do you actually believe that any nations after WW1 conduct their domestic or foreign affairs with such antiquated concepts as "friendship" or "solidarity?" If so, friend, you've been well indoctrinated, and I would urge you to contemplate purchasing this bridge that I offer you as a token of friendship.

    5. Re:Gentlemen.... by Aighearach · · Score: 0

      All workers get paid, since when is being an unpaid volunteer (read: independently wealthy) a requirement for assisting the US? Or anybody?

      As far as him getting paid by America goes, Germany has an data-sharing pact with us and he was collecting data for them just by sharing it with us. I'm not sure how they can accuse somebody else of them spying on themselves, or how they can claim it is spying.

    6. Re: Gentlemen.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he is talking about the modern world where one has to realize that doing business with US companies is just a problematic as doing business with Russian ones.
      In general you are better off when you don't. It's better to just let their economy tank than having to deal with their industrial espionage.
       

  2. In Soviet Germany... by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    the Americans spy on YOU!

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:In Soviet Germany... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      He was arrested on suspicion of being a Russian spy. He told investigators that he was actually spying for the Americans. Would he have been arrested if that had been the initial suspicion?

    2. Re:In Soviet Germany... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Would he have been arrested if that had been the initial suspicion?

      Likely yes. In is illegal to spy on your own country, even for the benefit of allies. Just ask Jonathan Pollard.

    3. Re:In Soviet Germany... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's the theory. In practice, Generalbundesanwalt Range didn't even want to start investigating the illegal surveillance of Angela Merkel's mobile phone by the NSA. He still refuses to investigate any of the other allegations of US spying on German territory. The two major political parties in Germany refuse to hear Snowden, because they fear damage to transatlantic relations.

    4. Re:In Soviet Germany... by fazig · · Score: 1

      Most certainly he would have been arrested.
      At this point in the "NSA-incident" the current government probably would like nothing more than to get some dirt on Russia.

    5. Re:In Soviet Germany... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Three ideas to bring the arrest into focus, Economic Espionage, Industrial Espionage and Extortion. So no matter the country, no matter the origin, get busted being a "FOR PROFIT" double agent and you are screwed. That the US was paying him will in fact piss off the Germans more than if the Russians were doing, they would expect if from the Russians, from the US, oh yeah, they will be hunting down those doing the paying as a matter of principle. Don't forget the US just made the German intelligence service look like a bunch of amateur idiots.

      The most appropriate German response would be to punch a hole in US security and specifically let the Russian and Chinese in. This to provide a real sting in replacement for capture, enhanced interrogation and execution. Which is the legal response for spies.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    6. Re:In Soviet Germany... by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      This is beyond obvious by now. I'm somewhat surprised that the two major political parties don't suffer a larger loss of popularity over this (the SPD is gradually losing in the polls, but arguably for other reasons).

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
  3. NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by MarkvW · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You idiots! This is all happening because you insist on spying on your fellow citizens. I will support any politician who votes to gut your damn budget.

    Now you're going to spy on me, I'm sure. Because you're not good Americans.

    Get the message, dammit!

  4. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They are already spying on.

    Both because they already spy on everyone, and because you are visiting Slashdot and the NSA considers anyone that knows a thing or two about technology to be an extremist.

  5. Yes we do by MRe_nl · · Score: 2

    The Men Who Stare At Goats

    --
    "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
  6. Uh Oh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama caught masturbating again.

  7. They already know how to deal with this. by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

    The US has no problem trading a few prisoners to secure the release of their operatives. Surely they can find 6 Germans in US prisons.

    --
    I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  8. There is some history here by MRe_nl · · Score: 2

    The relationship between the CIA and the BND predates the CIA : ) and is at times complex. This book goes into some of the background for those that are interested:

    http://www.cambridge.org/us/ac...

    and volume 2.

    --
    "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
    1. Re:There is some history here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it predates the CIA, the CIA was not born, so how could there be a relationship between the BND and CIA?

      Please explain, you may use diagrams.

    2. Re:There is some history here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The CIA was formed in 1947(?) but the services that were to "become" the CIA were already active in Germany (see, for instance, Operation Paperclip).

    3. Re:There is some history here by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      [US government dept tasked with spying] --- renamed ---> [CIA]
      [BND exists] - - - - - - - >

      How's that?

    4. Re:There is some history here by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If it predates the CIA, the CIA was not born, so how could there be a relationship between the BND and CIA?

      German and allied intelligence agencies cooperated DURING ww2. In 1943, the leader of the Abwehr, Wilhelm Canaris, offered to assassinate Hitler, announce an immediate ceasefire, and negotiate a German surrender. Winston Churchill turned him down flat out, and said there would be no ceasefire, and the allies would accept no terms other than unconditional surrender.. So the war continued. In 1944, another group of German leaders again offered to negotiate a surrender, but they botched the assassination of Hitler, and, again, the allies refused to negotiate, dooming the coup. 90% of America's casualties in WW2 occurred after Germany offered to surrender the first time, and 75% occurred after Germany offered to surrender the second time.

    5. Re:There is some history here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it predates the CIA, the CIA was not born, so how could there be a relationship between the BND and CIA?

      German and allied intelligence agencies cooperated DURING ww2. In 1943, the leader of the Abwehr, Wilhelm Canaris, offered to assassinate Hitler, announce an immediate ceasefire, and negotiate a German surrender. Winston Churchill turned him down flat out, and said there would be no ceasefire, and the allies would accept no terms other than unconditional surrender.. So the war continued. In 1944, another group of German leaders again offered to negotiate a surrender, but they botched the assassination of Hitler, and, again, the allies refused to negotiate, dooming the coup. 90% of America's casualties in WW2 occurred after Germany offered to surrender the first time, and 75% occurred after Germany offered to surrender the second time.

      Because ceasefires with Germany worked so wonderfully in the lead up to WW2, right?

    6. Re:There is some history here by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Yes the many deals with the US e.g. by Reinhard Gehlen by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...
      Then you had the Gehlen Organization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G... with US Army G-2 (intelligence) and what was to be/is now the "CIA".
      Packed with former Nazis with ww2 networks in Russia to offer. As many where open to WW2 related blackmail by the Soviet Union some where turned.
      The Soviet Union and East Germany gained many insights into the early role of the CIA in West Germany, emerging West Germany methods and department structures.
      Any CIA networks in the East where quickly turned or removed.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    7. Re:There is some history here by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Yes, because leaving Nazi Germany intact under a different Fuehrer was such a great idea. They wouldn't possibly use the separate peace with the Allies to fight the Soviets at all.

      Nazism had to be utterly wiped out. There could be no negotiating with a Jew-killing ideology.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    8. Re:There is some history here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They wouldn't possibly use the separate peace with the Allies to fight the Soviets at all.

      What is Operation Gladio?

    9. Re: There is some history here by Zoxed · · Score: 1

      Your final statement is not supported by your proceeding data. In neither case did "Germany" offer to surrender - it was a single man/group of man. High ranking maybe, but not speaking for either the nation or the leadership.

  9. Before by arbiterxero · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What the article gets wrong and EVERYONE forgets is that the spying did not start AFTER 9/11 but BEFORE new york was attacked.

    This was not in response to the twin towers, this was well under way before then.

    1. Re:Before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah but yanks love to glorify 9/11 and rub the rest of the worlds noses in it and use it as an excuse for their past, current and future actions.

      I personally regard 9/11 vocallers, like car alarms, i am desensitised to the cries of 9/11 and just switch to listening to Weird Al Yankovich songs in my head.

    2. Re:Before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, but to be clear, it is still Bush's fault.

    3. Re:Before by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It is. You don't even need to specify which Bush. But they didn't act alone. The administrations both before them and after them were also complicit.

      I'm moderately willing to believe that Jimmy Carter was as honorable as a president can be, but not anybody since him, and damn few of those before him. Before Truman I'm relying on history, so I don't trust my sources, but believing that there was a sudden change just as I started noticing things strains the imagination.

      That said, some were worse than others, and often the ways in which they abused their power were different.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    4. Re:Before by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Obama and his cursed time machine!

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
  10. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Devil's advocate : They all do it in secret. Even Germany. NSA got caught and exposed. Right or wrong, it's become ubiquitous.

  11. Everyone just calm down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You keep this up, and we will have 4 more dead in Ohio.
    Because freedom isn't free, but global warming is.
    And bush.

    1. Re:Everyone just calm down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free bush? Where?!?

  12. Re:So, now the Germans are spying on the NSA? Trol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are you observing a secular holiday? Get back to work, laggard.

  13. Too many secrets by Solandri · · Score: 1

    A member of Germany's foreign intelligence agency has been detained for possibly spying for the U.S. The 31-year-old is suspected of giving a U.S. spy agency information about a parliamentary inquiry of NSA activities.

    So the investigation into the NSA's secret spying activities, is itself being conducted in secret under penalty of espionage charges should any German violate that secrecy?

    We seem to be forgetting why people object to the NSA's activities. Something about governments being open and transparent in their operation so the public can be assured their actions are trustworthy. Any investigation into the NSA's activities should be done publicly and openly, to demonstrate a contrast with how the NSA operated.

    Unless that is the German government has something it wants to keep secret from its own people. But in that case they become the pot calling the kettle black.

    1. Re:Too many secrets by jiriki · · Score: 1

      Unless that is the German government has something it wants to keep secret from its own people. But in that case they become the pot calling the kettle black.

      Well the parliament has the oversight over the secret service (in theory at least). So they have to be told what the secret service does. This information should be secret, because why bother having a secret service, otherwise? While I agree that most political decisions should be transparent, it makes some sense to keep things secret in this case.

      Also I don't think the US would react in a positive way, if the BND published all information it has on the CIA in the parliament.

    2. Re:Too many secrets by cpghost · · Score: 1

      Suppose the inquiry board wants needs the testimony of anonymous whistle blowers (NOT Snowden, he's known). How do you suppose the anonymity of those testifying can be granted, if the inquiry is being public? I guess the NSA through the BND wanted to know who was testifying there, and what they exactly said.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    3. Re:Too many secrets by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Better yet, a member of the German agency that spies on foreign countries is accused of helping a foreign country spy on Germany...Karma, etc.

      Calling him a double agent would be like calling Snowden a traitor. Oh wait.

    4. Re:Too many secrets by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      A member of Germany's foreign intelligence agency has been detained for possibly spying for the U.S. The 31-year-old is suspected of giving a U.S. spy agency information about a parliamentary inquiry of NSA activities.

      So the investigation into the NSA's secret spying activities, is itself being conducted in secret under penalty of espionage charges should any German violate that secrecy? We seem to be forgetting why people object to the NSA's activities. Something about governments being open and transparent in their operation so the public can be assured their actions are trustworthy. Any investigation into the NSA's activities should be done publicly and openly, to demonstrate a contrast with how the NSA operated. Unless that is the German government has something it wants to keep secret from its own people. But in that case they become the pot calling the kettle black.

      So when is the NSA going to publish all the data it liberates from foreign governments?

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
  14. Stop Spying on Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doesn't matter; still wrong.

  15. Just a thought by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

    Maybe if you are spying on an inquiry about your spying, you should take extra measures to not be caught doing so, or just not do it in the first place.

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  16. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by Sique · · Score: 1

    Devil's advocate: Does a wrong become right if you are caught?

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  17. Wait a minute! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1
    How could this be? I thought noone but the USA had foreign intelligence types, from all the howling I've heard over the last few months whenever it was mentioned that the NSA's job is to spy on foreigners.

    And yet, here we have a German, working for Germany's foreign intelligence agency, at least theoretically spying on foreigners (by German standards - note that spying on Americans would count, since we're foreigners to Germans)

    Yeah, he was working for the US's foreign intelligence agency at the same time. And deserves to be nailed to tree (figuratively, of course) for that. But can people now shut up with the whinging that the it's wrong for the NSA to spy on other countries?

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    1. Re:Wait a minute! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, not until there's proof the Germans has infiltrated the Pentagon and tapped Obamas phones.

    2. Re: Wait a minute! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not wrong to spy on other countries. But it is wrong to spy on friends, allies and their heads of states, the entire world population, subverting encryption standards, undermining and ultimately destroying any trust into US companies by knowingly and unknowingly bugging services and devices (like the Cisco stuff), bypassing conventional laws and democracy by using FISA and national security letters, destroying every single bit of privacy, etcetera

      There is a difference between normal intelligence work and the bullshit the NSA perpetrates.

    3. Re:Wait a minute! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But can people now shut up with the whinging that the it's wrong for the NSA to spy on other countries?

      It is wrong for the NSA to spy on anyone that is not even suspected of a crime. It is also wrong if Germany is doing the same (which this specific case does not indicate).

    4. Re:Wait a minute! by DarkOx · · Score: 2

      Spying on your enemies makes sense, they are after all your enemies.

      Spying on your allies makes sense to a degree as well in that everyone has always done it. You might for example want to develop your own assessment of their military readiness and capabilities. You might try to obtain information about their long term economic prospects such as total mineral reserves and stuff like that as well. What you generally do not do is industrial espionage and you probably should not be directly spying on their secret government proceedings and the like, least it be discovered and you suddenly take on the unfriendly appearance of possibly attempting to manipulate or subvert their sovereignty; that is the sort of thing that turns allies into enemies.

      Its a fine line, but at least when we are talking about a stable and relatively open society I think we should be erring on the side of "don't do it", especially if you think the revelation of it would be the least bit astonishing to anyone not completely naive about statecraft.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    5. Re: Wait a minute! by cpghost · · Score: 1

      Is it really wrong to spy on the worldwide communication infrastructure, as long as you can? This ubiquitous spying can only spur the deployment of more encryption, anonymizing protocols and generally hardening the infrastructure. As long as that infrastructure is so easily vulnerable to snooping, why should the NSA, GCHQ and other spying agencies refrain from exploiting it? After all, it's our fault that we keep communicating in the clear, and that we keep trusting commercial companies that provide closed source products that we can't inspect (at least in theory).

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    6. Re: Wait a minute! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Trust. But verify."

    7. Re: Wait a minute! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quote "Is it really wrong to spy on the worldwide communication infrastructure, as long as you can?"

      Yes. Bullshit question.

      I could kill people. Doesn't make it right.

      North Korea can imprison half it's population. That doesn't make it right.

      The rest if your drivel isn't even worth quoting so bullshitty is it.

    8. Re: Wait a minute! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that YOU destroy the trust others put into you. Trust isn't a one-way road.

    9. Re:Wait a minute! by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Spying on your enemies makes sense, they are after all your enemies.

      Spying on your allies makes sense to a degree

      . . . if you spy on your allies enough . . . you can make them your enemies.

      . . . and if you spy on your own citizens enough . . . read "The Open Society and its Enemies"

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  18. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by Ceriel+Nosforit · · Score: 1

    I have a more devilish advocacy for you.

    This is a solid way to get evidence for a court case if you can get a foreign country to recruit your loyal. It's not exactly a double-spy spiel (hah!), but sort of a one-and-a-half one.

    You just have to get the courts to play along, so that your guy who is actually a patriot becomes a traitor in name only. Perhaps establish a penal colony on some tropical island. Get three witnesses like this and you have some very specific, irrefutable things to accuse a nation of.

    --
    All rites reversed 2010
  19. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, on the contrary, not getting caught is the only excuse when you're a spy.

  20. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by Sique · · Score: 1

    But this seems to be the general excuse for the NSA's doing: It's not as bad, because the others do it also, they just didn't get caught.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  21. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

    You idiots! This is all happening because you insist on spying on your fellow citizens.

    Err, no - this is all because the NSA spies on Germans.

    --
    Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
  22. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by cpghost · · Score: 1

    Well, Germans are Americans too (in a certain way...).

    --
    cpghost at Cordula's Web.
  23. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They all do it

    Repeat after me : whataboutery is never a justification

  24. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So the NSA excuse is that they are careless and incompetent thus got caught but it's alright because the other countries employ competent spies that don't get caught?

  25. both true by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    He was arrested on suspicion of being a Russian spy. He told investigators that he was actually spying for the Americans.

    hell both are probably true...he probably started out working for the US & got disillusioned & flipped

    once these guys have been out in "the field" for awhile they get sociopathic...hard not to...your "work" is basically hacking society & everyone you know is part of the con

    it's just rough work...and they **get turned**....then **turned back**

    at some point, after double spying, then tripple...these people just become mercenaries

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
  26. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Generations of West Germans who tapped into the copper, grew up with the change to optical and digital where all happy to help the NSA.
    Later they selected Germans who tapped into the to optical and digital networks. They where all happy to help the NSA.
    Generations of trusted, cleared German staff who know nothing but ensuring the NSA gets its 24/7 "collect it all" feeds and other special tasks.
    In East Germany you had generations of trusted, cleared German staff who ensured Moscow got its daily updated on dissidents and any spy networks East Germany had established.
    If this news is true and not some trust us "We found FSB" distraction it shows a new side to internal German security.
    German staff members more loyal to the USA or Russia are not just able to report over decades so Germany can be allowed to play big politics.
    Some clandestine units in Germany could finally be protecting Germany interests, jobs, trade, science and their own gov secrets - for real this time.
    Thats great after so many decades of collaboration: east or west.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  27. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by FawdNoor · · Score: 1

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  28. The dam breaks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this witness, former NSA technical director William Binney with 40 years NSA service under his belt, only the first in a range of ex-NSA personnel following in Snowden's footsteps?
    The linked article certainly suggests so -- Snowden Leaks only Tip of Iceberg:

    http://www.dw.de/snowden-leaks-only-tip-of-the-iceberg/a-17068905

  29. + twist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a positive twist to all the Snowden and Assange's wikileaks revelations, and Jimmy Wales' wikipedia allowing people to confirm these things are real, all thongs wiki does have an impact. It's likely imo that national governments of the remaining handful of sovereign states - Germany, Russia, China, others will lock down their security all the more and keep the bidding for global dominion open to competition. My take at least..

  30. + twist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ahem *things XD

  31. Re:NSA: Stop Spying on Americans by mrbill101 · · Score: 0

    Time to Revolt

  32. NSA suspicious of german treason against Poland. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just you understand: Merkel's Germany has made a pact with Russia, wherein they sell neighbouring Poland and the Ukraine to Putin, in exchange for siberian oil and gas. It is essentially a new Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, except it is a secret, rather than public one.

    On the other hand, the anglo-americans are eternally grateful for Poland's contribution to the common defence during WWII (the 1940 Battle of Britain, etc.) and the brits have a lot of guilt about handing over the many tens of thousands of ukrainian resistance fighters at the conclusion of WWII, to Josif Stalin, who promptly had them exterminated. Thus, the anglo-americans are not going to abandon the poles and the ukrainians this time. That is why GCHQ and the NSA are closely investigating Germany. They suspect the current german fuhress (fuhreress?) Angela Merkel made love with Putin, back in the 80s, when then the russian tyrant was a mere KGB resident-in-training deployed to East Berlin.

    The very day, when german Leopard-2 tanks start rolling into western Poland, while russian T-90 tanks roll in from the east, the anglo-american aerial superiority will be there and ready to interrupt the Merkel-Putin duo's panzerlied with an aria of sorrow!

  33. NSA suspicious of german treason against Poland. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    holy crap man what ARE you smoking!

    can I get some?