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New NSA-Funded Code Rolls All Programming Languages Into One
An anonymous reader writes "What's your favorite programming language? Is it CSS? Is it JavaScript? Is it PHP, HTML5, or something else? Why choose? A new programming language developed by researchers at Carnegie Mellon University is all of those and more — one of the world's first "polyglot" programming languages. Sound cool? It is, except its development is partially funded by the National Security Agency, so let's look at it with a skeptical eye. It's called Wyvern — named after a mythical dragon-like thing that only has two legs instead of four — and it's supposed to help programmers design apps and websites without having to rely on a whole bunch of different stylesheets and different amalgamations spread across different files.
Why? What's the worst that could happen? What's the best?
Why is the NSA interested in something like that directly? What is the potential for abuse?
Is it to make code analysis that much more centralized and (supposedly) simple?
Why didn't this come up with itself before now?
I arrived at America pretty late - at the 60's - but at least at that time America had several institutions doing all kinds of wonderful basic research
Bell Labs
Xerox's famous lab at Palo Alto
The Skunkworks
And at that time Darpa funded a lot of basic research as well
Today, all gone
Even Darpa's funding are not aiming at basic research - such as what TFA has outlined - what they are doing at Carnegie Mellon is actually an applied research ... taking what has been known and add another layer onto it
What's happening in America nowadays is very worrying
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I looked up images of Wyvern on Google images. Don't think it's a good choice. Reminds me of the NSA's overreach over our lives. I think they should have named it Pussy Cat.
Is that a roll of dimes in your pocket or are you happy to see me?
CSS and HTML5 are not programming languages. You don't "choose" html5 over, say, php.
(And don't fucking say HTML5 + CSS3 is turing complete)
"What's your favorite programming language? Is it CSS?"
Why yes, I just love writing VoIP systems in CSS.
Hate to break it to you, but HTML5 and CSS are not programming languages.
Wasn't there some discussion on how effective a special, compiler-embedded virus would be? This seems like a good candidate for that.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Uh, and DARPA created the internet, so what?
Let's all applaud NSA on this one. Seriously whoever came up with this one deserves to be NSA's employee of the month. I think Obama just had a wet dream.
Yes! Finally, a programming language and development system from a serious organization we can all trust to help us produce secure applications! I am so happy I'm doing the little Snoopy Dog House Dance! Oh-Joy! More Exclamation Points Please!!!
You have n programming languages. You think "That's to many, let's invent a programming language that combines all of them!", and then do so. You now have n+1 programming languages...
Yeah, again....
As you'd expect from CMU, the papers themselves are pretty interesting. Just read the abstracts instead of trying to guess from the summary or vice article, which are both way off the mark.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aldrich/papers/ecoop14-tsls.pdf
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aldrich/papers/maspeghi13.pdf
At the NSA they KNOW a bigger haystack is a better haystack, so why not extend that idea to a programming language.
By understanding all the languages you get the strengths of all the languages and none of the weaknesses, programmers can just ignore the weaknesses then they arent there,
Why should programmers have to put up with those pesky syntax errors when you can just make the language accept any (stupid) command.
Forward to the future !
Sound cool?
Nope. I don't wrote Web crApps.
Why in the hell would you need to look at something with a skeptical eye just because money came from a certain source? Is the reputation of carnegie mellon suspect or something? And if so, shouldn't that in and of itself be the reason of suspect?
The submiter is a shallow person suffering from guilt by association which is never a valid premise. I mean i know skin heads who donate to planned patrenthood specifically because they have all their abortion clinics in areas with high minority populations and keep the minority populations in check. Does that mean we have to look at them wiyh a skeptical eye too? Of course not- or at least npt because a source of their funding has issues most of us find repulsive.
The merrits of this will rest on its own. There is absolutely no reason to put the integrity of the development into question simply because the NSA gave funding.
... without having to rely on a whole bunch of different stylesheets and different amalgamations spread across different files
There's nothing I love more than editing each embedded style sheet in a tree and searching through monolithic source files with thousands of functions...
No, it doesn't "roll all languages into one". It just allows embedding of the text of another language, such as HTML, into a Wyvern program. Variables can be substituted. Like this:
(except that the last 3 lines above should be indented, because this language uses Python-style block notation.)
Of course, everybody does that now, but the way they do it, especially in PHP, tends to lead to problems such as SQL injection attacks. The idea here is that Wyvern has modules for the inserted text which understand what kinds of quoting or escaping are required for the embedded language text.
I just glanced at the paper, but that seems to be the big new feature.
Yeah, about as skilled and effective as past Israeli-Palestinian negotiators...
To write better Apps and Websites?
Are these what the kids call programming languages these days?
It doesn't sound very serious.
CSS: not a programming language.
HTML: not a programming language.
PHP: not a programming language.
Note: I'm a web developer mostly these days, I write a bucket of each of these. I'm a computer science educated professional and I also write a lot of code in Java and C++. I really like PHP. It is however not a bloody programming language, it's a scripting language.
One code to rule them all, one code to find them, One code to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
This program is valid C and, when saved as "test2.java", valid java code. Compilation with the C compiler results in a program that doesn't behave the same way if it were compiled with java:
//\
//\
//\
/*
#include "stdio.h"
/**///\
public class test2 {
//\
public static
void main
(String[]a)//\
/*
(int argc, char *argv[])//*/
{
System.out.printf("hi, I'm java\n");/*
printf("hi, I'm C\n");//*/
}
//\
}
And we know how well that worked the last time.
Why is Snark Required?
This thread has been seriously spammed by bots
The problem is /. itself can't stop bots from spamming it, and does offer visitors to 'un-friend' the username under which the bots are using
What I want to know is, is there a way to get rid of all the goddamn spams ?
Too ACCURATE for SAND People!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
At the very least slashdot should offer us an "un-friend" feature so that we can click on that user tab - in this case, user jelIomizer (3670957) - and then "un-friend" this fucker and all his spams will be forever filtered out of our screens
I really don't understand this. Almost every site I go to does the same damn crap with Javascript and all of it could be done with other technologies.
May I point out that the LLVM logo is a wyvern? http://llvm.org/Logo.html
- Henrik
- when the Shadows descend -
I thought we already had Perl to combine all programming features into one language.
Hahaha wait were they actually serious when they called css, html5, php and javascript programming languages? I thought that was a joke because of the triviality of combining them. I am waiting for when I can roll gcode, java, c, c++, c#, python, multiple plc languages, scala, latex, matlab and lisp in one. Because really who considers wordpress site functionality for hardcore services programming, machine learning, graphics, manufacturing automation, sensor, biometric analysis and robotics. This isn't elitism is is just practicality of the interfaces, functionality available through the services management, and security used across different engineering clients. Really people reinventing the wheel and then claiming innovation is disgusting. At least they could of done a web search first. Claiming that more human readable lexical structures harks way back to the COBOL days... back in the 1960's. Lessons learned people. We don't need more "programming without understanding" tools we need education. Last time the accountant went programming they were wondering why their freetext entry could not be saved to a boolean. Nuff said.
It's supposed to help the NSA, and to hurt you in the end.
It doesn't do what the summary says.
If it did, that would take care of half of my bugs. Within a 30-minute period, I might well work in PHP, Perl, ActionScript, JavaScript, and some other language. A large portion of my errors are things like using empty() in JavaScript. Especially, ActionScript is almost the same as JavaScript, and a lot of Perl is also valid PHP, so when switching between these it's easy to absent-mindedly tap out a line in the wrong language.
Once upon a time, I used vim syntax highlighting, which doesn't typically catch using the right syntax, but the wrong function name, but does make missed braces and such obvious. Maybe I should right a vim plugin for "wrong language, dummy." It would look for echo (phph vs print (Perl), etc.
There's a comment threshold feature that effectively eliminates your ability to see low rated comments, which these ravings are rendered to with a quickness thanks to a rather decent moderation scheme.
Caveat: two or three of the smartest things I've ever read on here were, at least at one point, low threshold.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
If it can't do Fortran, I don't want it.
If it's useful, take it and make it your own. It ain't the One Ring. Real technology is not magic that secret cabals can control through arcane "Logicks." If the NSA thinks they could control something as useful as this is advertised, then they're simply deluding themselves. And if it's not very useful, then their nefarious schemes won't matter anyway.
Is this Haskell but aimed at the CGI domain? I don't understand if the tools that back this language even compile or do something like that for the various parts of the web chain (cgi, web server, database, browser). It would be better if this was a project to bring the disrupt way of life to the www (when NSA is not involved it's a good thought, for many reasons), but remains interesting if it's a project that would challenge in the Dart and Curl arena.
If dragons are mythical creatures, who's to say that they have 4 legs and not just 2, anyway?
Does it do APL ? Forth ? 6502 assembler?
I created A.I. with HTML5 and CSS3. Get on my level.
There already is a language that can generate HTML5/Flash(Actionscript)/NodeJS/PHP/C++/Java/... applications, it's called Haxe, and it's been developed for years (targetting mostly Flash and games, AFAIK), so I'd guess it's mature enough for anything.
I'm surprised that I couldn't find ANY comment about it in this thread...
They've re-invented PL/1!
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
The NSA's reputation has been annihilated. There are good people that work for such organizations. People that could and do benefit our society on a regular basis. Their institution was simply coopted by irresponsible people that sadly destroyed everything. Its a shame.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
"...and here's another one!"
Koans and fables for the software engineer
New filesystems and databases might show up as less people trust the same old tame providers that decrypt for the US gov as installed. :)
But the good news for the USA is the data will still have connect with say international billing and other US set global standards.
Thats where a system like this might be fun. You dont have to care what the backend was, just what is sent as known, expected, decrypted data.
Pulling useful data from new bespoke communications streams will be like setting the old standards. You still get to collect it all at some point in on the NSA's global network no matter how fancy nations and firms get internally.
Re 'Why didn't this come up with itself before now?" because it was all like ENIGMA 2.0 - plain text for the USA/UK over decades thanks to tame exported crypto that always had a trap or back door.
Now you have to hunt for fragments of the same messages in strange new net code. The standards are still US set, so you know what your looking for
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
It runs on the JVM. Looks like they merged scala syntax with python formatting. Mostly it's just an interpreter from what I can tell... Mostly innocuous looking.
If this wasn't on the JVM I'd be more suspicious. Then again, maybe there's a reason they chose the JVM.
The bigger question is now, do you trust the JVM?
And look where that is today....
Initial reaction: they've reinvented VMware player (an easy to use x86 virtualization tool)
Subsequent reaction: this is more about making syntax extensions to the core language, easy to do. And still preserving static typing.
So in short . . . anyone who understands it could trivially write extremely obfuscated programs that still run correctly. Primary competitor: C++
http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/
Jellomizer has multiple posts all dated with 7:12 PM. Now, as a Slashdot member over the years, with excellent karma, I can't even post that fast, regardless of what I'm posting. What allows Jellomizer, without the consent of the editors/admins, to post spam repeatedly, without any time delay?
Allowing blatant spam to drown AC comments is likely the goal. Still not sure how Jellomizer posts over 20 (20+!!!) posts in under 6 minutes even IF they had excellent karma. This smacks of a slashcode bug or editor collusion. Normal users won't suffer because of the karma bonus, but affected users will include any ACs making relevant points. Allowing the spam to continue unabated will simply result in controversial viewpoints (held legitimately, posted AC to preserve reputation) being drowned out. For further reference, google Forum Slide.
That thing is a bot, and the multiple posts went through a bug within the Slashcode which /, never bother to fix
Furthermore this bot homes in threads that are related to "NSA"
CSS & HTML5 ***are*** code languages for programming machine behavior
*at the presentation level*
it's not an "original gangster" hardcore badass super 1337 C#+! language...it's not complex or "bragable" at a gathering of dorks trying to impress each other...
but it's symbols that form a code that humans use to 'program' machine behavior...that's a programming language
just accept it, once and for all, and stop all of you....just stop
it doesnt make your skillz any less bragable...it's a coding language...mostly visual design oriented...
***HTML5&CSS are not threats to your bragging rights***
Thank you Dave Raggett
http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html
Made by N**! Sound secure and legit, probably no complex backdoor features when you are working on your security encryption modules or whatever.
Login, mark him as a foe, his posts will no longer show for you.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
...someone comes along and tries to re-invent the wheel and gift us with the ability to write in a single "unified" language that crosses the lines demarcating server and client.
Except it's inevitably a pile of hacky shit that is founded on a basic faulty idea.
It sounds awesome but no way in hell I'd use anything funded by the NSA. :( Whoever accepted that funding is a damn troll, and a good one at that.
I can tell you now, I'll never use it.
Anthing based upon HTML or CSS is guaranteed to be a unmaintainable crap. Put them together, and you have the largest pile of shite ever !
"Jack of all trades master of none".
Lisp doing that for so long. Look up for "common lisp reader macro".
Your post makes various other points that sound reasonable to me, but I have to call out the above line from a couple of angles:
1) using the phrase "bad press" implies a virtuous subject that has been distorted by a reporting industry with a non-virtuous agenda. NOTHING OF THE SORT has happened to poor lil' NSA here... they FUCKED us, straight up, and got caught red-handed.
2) Whatever the extent to which the NSA is "interested in security", it might as well be the extent to which a wolf is interested in "keeping chickens alive"... yes the wolf wants a food supply, but that doesn't make the wolf a proponent of livestock. The NSA is all about surveillance at this point; their putting on the badge of promoting security is a means to an end. I won't rehash the extensive list of public standards they secretly compromised to that end; it speaks for itself.
Again, I think much of what you wrote makes sense, but in this particular line you stray notably too far into something approaching neutrality about the NSA. They are bad people with a bad agenda, and they'll fuck YOU the first chance they get.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
What did Neo say? Oh, I remember: No.
Without having looked at the post or scrutinized the language, here's a couple of guesses:
1) looks like C: i.e. verbose, vacuous, loopy.
2) has crappy (i.e. industry-standard) array-handling.
3) fails to incorporate any of the decades of research about how people approach problems versus how programming languages do.
Though since this is Slashdot, there's virtually zero chance this is the first (or the last) instance of a disgruntled nerd with some coding skill.
Can't you just picture the editors, worked up into a frenzy this Monday morning, feverishly pursuing a solution?
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
I have been gone too long...
import wyv:parser.wyv
import java:wyvern.tools.parsing.ExtParser
import java:wyvern.tools.parsing.HasParser
import java:wyvern.tools.parsing.ParseBuffer
import java:wyvern.tools.typedAST.interfaces.TypedAST
type Calculator
def eval():Int
metadata:HasParser = new
def getParser():ExtParser = new
def parse(buf:ParseBuffer):TypedAST
val oNum = CalcParser.CalculatorParser.create(buf.getSrcString()).E()
~
new
def eval():Int = $oNum
This is supposed to make me feel this is a)secure and b) more bug free?
Because if they control the compiler, they can put any backdoors they want in any code.
"Many bugs are of course a simple "oops"or "l forgot that. I knew, and it slipped my mind". - by raymorris (2726007) on Sunday August 10, 2014 @06:20PM (#47643835)
2 links show us that much (care to tell us how 'great you are' now, raymorris?) http://slashdot.org/comments.p... where you outright stated blatant falsehoods on Windows, and shut your mouth vs. 100's of facts on hosts files, raymorris? Did you shut your mouth out of politeness (since you said you use that in that post above), or since you had to "eat your FALSE words" again, *trying* to say "oops"? Eating your words != good nutrition raymorris. Having your foot RAM THEM DOWN YOUR THROAT after you stuck your foot in your mouth isn't healthy either, now is it? Nope. Lastly "washing those words down with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat" & running like Forrest too? Please: I suggest a diet change, as well as to quit 'bragging' on how 'great you are' when you obviously aren't and have been shown to be *anything but* knowledgeable in that link above by someone who illustrates your motives and rather weak technical skills in that link above.
presentation is behavior...in fact, if all you have is a monitor **all behavior is presentation**
if use HTML5 to tell a computer to display a black background when you go to a URL
OR i could do the same to ****PROGRAM**** the computer to display a white background when you go to a URL
either way, user enters data (URL in browser) and computer returns a ***PROGRAMMED*** response
programmed using HTML5 so that the browser knows it's the *background* that is to be black, not another part
that's programming no matter how you define it...the definition of programming is clear
what's not clear is why people think HTML & CSS are not programming
it is...accept it
Thank you Dave Raggett
you can't redefine "coding" by calling everything "data"
it's instructions for a machine...that's coding...
you're playing linguistic games & no matter how you do it you're still wrong functionally
Thank you Dave Raggett
I'm honestly astounded at the lack of basic language understanding among /.'ers...
plain text are ***symbols***
just like for machine code only when 1 and 0 are used...the 1 & 0 are symbols....doesn't matter how many symbols a language has
all languages, coding or human or chimpanzee, are made up of symbols
yes binary could be called a 'language' b/c it's a set of consistent symbols that orders instructions for a machine
it doesn't have to be human-readable to be code
Thank you Dave Raggett
This is the problem with languages that try to be everything...they aren't really good at anything.
This is just another attempt to implement a programming language panacea (fantasy). Ada was promised to be the end all language, and it turned into joke, and the Govt had to abandon it. This (Wyvern) will go the same way, as its too abstract in most cases to be successful in the main stream. And with the NSA attachment, most software developers will not touch it. Big brother is still big brother.
CSS + HTML + Javascript is how your HTML file used to look... (A big fucking mess).
Massive monolithic source files are not helpful. What is the purpose of this?
That language was supposed to include all possible necessities, and wound up a bloated pile used only by people forced to by government contracts
Go, swift were supposed to be more global Internet languages than their predecessors.
Then too, corporate derived projects arent necesarily as good as a celver grad student project.
If the NSA has a hand in it, let's name it Newspeak.
Where is the official rule that "programming languages" have to be Turing Complete?
They are to a good hacker.
Table-ized A.I.
i thought we were past this 'turing complete' shit...
seriously, given the right conditions, I can piss in a jar and it can be 'turing complete'
Turing did some very good work, obviously, but the whole computability function test has been shown to be reductive and just an abstraction
machines execute instructions. end.
Thank you Dave Raggett
PHP is no less a programming language than Java, for those morons who insist a "programming" language produce machine code...
Sounds like the Racket implementation of Scheme.
ADA++
Ken
that we keep HTML and CSS separate? And isn't there a reason that we keep javascript light and transportable? Etc, etc?
I don't the the modern web framework has gotten to its current state because we had to simplify the way things were 10 years ago (btw, we did - it has gotten much simpler with tools like sass, js canvas, webkit, etc). Things are where they're at today because the priorities for dev shops are often (A) Performance of the product (B) Maintainability and scalability of the project behind the product.
Using something 'easier' like Wyvern will come with a tradeoff for the developers looking to get organized. Also, the code looks like garbage :(
The news release of -every- new computer language says it will replace all others. It has not happened yet, maybe next century...