Involuntary Eye Movement May Provide Definitive Diagnosis of ADHD

Zothecula writes: If a child who's simply very active is mistakenly diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), he can end up on pharmaceuticals such as Ritalin unnecessarily. The problem is, it can be quite difficult to determine if someone actually has ADHD, and misdiagnoses are common. Now, however, researchers from Tel Aviv University have announced that analyzing a patient's eye movements may be the key. "The researchers found a direct correlation between ADHD and the inability to suppress eye movement in the anticipation of visual stimuli. The research also reflected improved performance by participants taking methylphenidate, which normalized the suppression of involuntary eye movements to the average level of the control group."

Comments

I don't know what they're talking about

[sandytaru]

I can stay focused just fine (*flicks eyes to where Outlook just refreshed*) and concentrate for long periods of time (*glances outside - cute squirrel!*) and I can assure you my eyes stay glued firmly to the screen. (*twitches and changes tabs because the title bar just changed on one*)

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[Anonymous Coward]

I can stay focused just fine (*flicks eyes to where Outlook just refreshed*) and concentrate for long periods of time (*glances outside - cute squirrel!*) and I can assure you my eyes stay glued firmly to the screen. (*twitches and changes tabs because the title bar just changed on one*)

So, what you are saying is, distractions distract? Say it ain't so!

I'm serious. If you think your example is some example of ADHD, then no wonder we are drugging our kids up into zombies. *Normal* brain gets distracted by distractions, especially when task at hand is not engaging or otherwise deemed important by said individual.

So close Outlook, close other programs you don't need, turn off Slashdot instead of looking to drown out said distractions with drugs.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[JMJimmy]

They need to be specific, this applies to ADHD-H. This does not apply to ADHD-I and is questionable with ADHD-C. I have ADHD-I and I have the problem that my eyes get sore from hyperfocusing to the extent that my body forgets to blink.

Besides, they already have a definitive diagnosis. A brain scan. Aside from the very obvious differences in brain wave patterns, the structure of the brain is physically different. ADHD-H will show the centre of the brain growing at an accelerated rate compared to the other areas of the brain. ADHD-I will show under development of the frontal and/or temporal lobes and a noted size difference in the rear of the brain (something on the right side rear is smaller)... I'm totally not awake so all the appropriate terms and thoughts in general aren't coming to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?... --this lecture talks about it... it's split into a bunch of random pieces so I don't know which one the ADHD-I brain portion is in... that or there's a 3 hour video with it all (I think it's the same lecture)

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[sandytaru]

I actually have to do just that a lot of the time. Also, music helps a bunch - background noise that isn't random allows me to keep my mind on the task at hand instead of bouncing all over the place.

We also a problem of celebrating the ability to multi-task as an adult, and yet getting on the case of any child who exhibits those abilities because they're not "focused" enough.

Re: I don't know what they're talking about

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone recently diagnosed, my experience has never been one of distraction, per se. I would force myself to sit at my desk and stare at a project. I might read an article every now and then, but I was never constantly going back and forth. My problem was actually forcing my brain to work on the task when it wasn't particularly interesting. If the task took no concentration it was much easier. If the task was highly stimulating (I.e. learning lots of new stuff) eventually I'd slip into "the zone". But for most stuff it was a daily struggle.

For 15 years I worked 60+ hour weeks (sometimes 80+), partly because I had to compensate with time for my inability to focus on work.

I thought I was just undisciplined. But in any event meds changed my life completely. Now I can work an 8 hour day, and while its sometimes still a struggle I don't feel like a failure at the end of the day. (A psychotherapist thought my anxiety about work was what kept me from focusing. But I kept telling her it was the other way around. Once I met a psychiatrist he understood immediately and even had anecdotes about a friend from medical school who exhibited my behavior.)

For anybody in my position, don't think you're stupid or it's your fault. I have an IQ in the 99.99th percentile, actually managed to fumble through a good law school, and I'm a well paid software engineer. In retrospect my "issue" helped make me who I am. It explains, at least in part, my varied interests and ability to deeply focus on stimulating activities. But in our culture it began to make my life miserable, especially in middle adulthood.

I used to be skeptical about ADHD. The list of symptoms reads like a horoscope; that is, everybody can identify. But frankly I don't care about any of that anymore. Psychiatry may still be in the stone age in many regards, but I'm doing much better now. So much about my life, even as a kid, makes much more sense now. I had invented all kinds of explanations for why I was the kind of student, worker, husband what I am. But in retrospect ADHD is such a much more elegant explanation.

I'm also a life-long stutter, which also fits the pattern. But ironically my stuttering helped keep me more reserved than the stereotypical ADHD kid or adult. To not stutter I always have to carefully and deliverstely think through what I want to say aloud, which mitigates my tendency to interrupt others or speak in a hyperactive manner.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[tomhath]

Joke aside, being distracted by something you see wasn't part of test. They detected involuntary eye movements when the subject anticipated seeing something. If you've ever known someone with real ADHD you'll understand this; they get distracted thinking something is about to distract them, you can see it in their eyes...

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[sillybilly]

"Diagnosing" someone with ADHD is equivalent to eugenics, especially if you act on your "diagnosis," and force them, or pressure them at least, into taking substances into their body that alters their thinking. If they come to you and ask for help, then you can whip out the, well, we have this concept of ADHD, and these are supposed to be the solutions, but we're not sure they really work, but I recommend trying this one first. And let the patient maintain their dignity, and self determination. An eye-movement or ADHD alone is not enough to condemn someone to a lifetime of substance abuse.

By the way I can take completely sane and absolutely normal people, and make them have involuntary eye movements by mental process overload. It usually has to go at something very core in the psyche, like identity, race, survival, honor, justice, or anything they care about, if you can find anything like that. For instance, tell somebody Jewish, a joke like "What's the difference between pizza and a Jew?" Answer: The pizza does not scream when you put it in the oven. That will sure get any sane person get involuntary eye movements, but it has to be told by not somebody they trust, or feel close to, like another Jew, because they might find it funny, but somebody they are weary of, like some German guy. You can crack similar jokes about black people, or there is almost nobody on the planet that could keep it together and not go into an involuntary eye-movement thing, maybe some really expert Buddhist monks or ascetic self denying Hindu, or even some really old Catholic nuns that have been through caring for wounded in wars, they might be hardy enough at the core not to sweat the small stuff. Without exception every person I've ever come across in my life, that I had a chance to have long conversations with, I ended up having them do involuntary eye-movements, just cuz that's the way I am. There were some I deeply respect, and even if they talked to me at length sometimes, it was rarely about topics that would stir emotions, and they avoided long talks on such topics and stuck to the point, or the talks they did were while not facing each other, but like sitting side by side in a car, and I never saw them stir eyes, or loose their cool, in fact their ex training shined through every time there was deep difficulty, even if not being geniuses, they were steadfast and bold headed and unafraid, and that's how they make good leaders, by not stirring their eyes in difficult situations, but almost energized by them, even if their voice shakes and you can tell they are under a lot of stress. It's very easy to make me stir my eyes too, btw, so I'm not as hardened at the core as some people I met. People stir eyes, or have sudden obviously involuntary and slow multiple eye blinks in very quick succession while looking up to the ceiling as if they were going to sleep (as that's the sign of complete mental overload of the psyche with something shocking and not funny, fast but slow repetitive blinking, a funny shocker being relaxing and laugh bursting), even when supposedly relaxed. In fact funny and involuntary eye movement go hand in hand, especially in situations where you walk the fine line between being offensive and being funny, pretending to be funny, but stepping on the offensive side, as anything funny is a brain shocker and creates a bursting of laughter, but anything truly offensive, and also not coming from somebody completely trusted, shocks the brain into involuntary eye movements. In fact that's the way to inspect how much you can trust somebody, by how far you can push the boundaries of offense, and if you can trust them, they will laugh at your bad jokes, if not, then you get the eye movements. Any time they are weary of you. Normal people. Normal in the sense of being virgin-like souls, unhardened by a religion or hard life and suffering through past experiences. And when you talk to these people, you yourself might enter into this mode of the psyche, as in mental overload, as in, why is this person I'm talking to so overlo

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[sillybilly]

Oh and I forgot to get to the people who are constantly eye-shuffling, and constantly mentally overloaded. They really need a change of environment because they are either stuck with toxic people, or they've been through some very horrible experiences, and the solution to the problem is not medication, but love. Love from other people, and love from pets. And time. Time heals everything. Sometimes you see black people stuck in a white world like that, on the bus sometimes, but nobody who comes from the south and grew up completely among black people, never seeing a white person, has issues like that, constant eye movement and mental overload. Or sometimes there might be different "bloods" between black people where they don't self-identify with each other, and then there is a lot of stress. Sometimes it's best for people to be segregated, live in very tight and well cooperating groups that interact along the fringes, and in public life, like in a store, or market, but a job is a touchier subject, and a really difficult one is marriage, which has a very high failure rate between different kinds of people.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[sillybilly]

And I've seen some depressed cats too, mentally tortured to the point where they stopped grooming themselves licking their paws and washing their faces like that, or licking their fur. Cats are born to be very clean animals by nature, it's in their genes, but it's possible to overcome it by sufficient environmental pressure and life experiences. And you can make a cat like that instantly purr too, if you are only nice to them, give them food, and stroke them, and talk to them, they start purring. Sometimes it depends on the breed of cat though, as there are some breeds, that, though completely healthy and sane, and undepressed or unstressed in general, well groomed too, yet are not very "handy" for lack of a better word, hand loving, they don't seek out human interaction, or being stroked, though sometimes it's possible to have them come close to you, and sit in your lap, and even purr for a little while, but they get distracted by things such as monitoring their territory, watching for invader cats, that's just how they are, and that territorialness takes a toll on them as far as other activities go.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[sillybilly]

There is also ADHD-gamma coupled usually with Lemperger's syndrome. Back in the 1850's there was this saying amongst peasants that he's contracted a rich person's disease. A poor peasant would have a back ache, a sore throat, a fever, pain the legs, pain in the stomach, headaches, something plain English like that, but a rich person could go to a doctor and get diagnosed for such and such Syndrome, or that and that disorder, of course, in view of today's knowledge that diagnosis being total bologna, just like today's diagnoses centuries from now might be looked as boloni. Poor people have aches and pains, maybe bad or damaged body parts, but they don't have the money to pay for a fancy diagnosis, like any kind of somebdy's name-disease, or syndrome, or disorder.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[JMJimmy]

Proper diagnosis is not baloni anymore. 8-12 hours of intensive testing that objectively measures performance against millions who've taken the same tests gives a very reliable result that can be backed up with a CT scan or MRI.

Re: I don't know what they're talking about

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing that has bugged me for a while: I wonder if there is a tendency for ADHD sufferers with high IQ to not be diagnosed as children? I'm in a very similar boat to yourself, and have struggled for years to get an official diagnosis (here in the UK, the clinical guidelines set by the government actually didn't allow diagnosis of adults with ADHD until only a few years ago) based largely on the fact that the first question I'm always asked is how I performed at school, to which I have to answer that I got above average grades. The fact that I was in probably the top 5% of my school intelligence-wise yet got a result that was merely better-than-average never comes up: I didn't *fail*, so clearly I don't have ADHD, so what am I doing asking a doctor to diagnose me... clearly I must be trying to score some cheap drugs.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[Anonymous Coward]

Proper diagnosis is not baloni anymore. 8-12 hours of intensive testing that objectively measures performance against millions who've taken the same tests gives a very reliable result that can be backed up with a CT scan or MRI.

Unfortunately, the currently-used "objective" tests aren't actually very good at diagnosing ADHD. They diagnose whether you're paying attention to them or not... a child with no interest in the test is quite likely to be simply not pay attention and get a diagnosis. An actual ADHD sufferer can find the tests the most interesting thing they've done in the recent past, focus on them beyond the point that normal people would give up, and end up with the diagnosis rejected.

Questionnaires about historical problems given to the patient and a close relative actually correlate better with the presence of the condition. See research by Russell Berkley.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[Megol]

Yet another load of bullshit linked to an ADHD article...

People that can juggle a lot of things in their head simultaneously can multitask. Most people can't and for those trying to multitask will strongly reduce work performance.

People that can't concentrate on things _may_ have ADHD. Or some other conditions or just bad genetics.

There's a huge difference between those things. Having ADHD doesn't give one a multi-tasking enhancement.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[sillybilly]

Exactly. But I'd even go as far as ADHD is a rich person's disease, created by the doctors out of thin air to get some badly needed money. As in they'll tell ya anything if it means dough in the pocket, like some fancy abrakadabra "diagnosis." I even dislike the word diagnosis and put it in the same category as statistics. As in there are lies, damned lies, and statistics is the superlative of them all. But, compared to "statistics", "diagnosis" is so far off the chart that it gets its own category in degrees of lying. Like they have any fucking clue what's wrong with you, unless they took something themselves and infected you with it on purpose. But otherwise, the give you a "diagnosis" is a similar situation to the Mad TV Alien Abduction Therapist gig, that you can probably find on youtube. Here, I found it for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Re: I don't know what they're talking about

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is my drug of choice! Thank you very much.

Re:I don't know what they're talking about

[Anonymous Coward]

What does ADHD stand for....

Attention Deficit....OHHHH LET's Ride BIKES!

inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's just called being a kid!"

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

It is. ADD and ADHD are fake "disorders" invented by doctors and pharmaceutical companies to get kids addicted to their drugs and make lifelong customers.

When I was a kid, nobody had ADD/ADHD because it hadn't been fabricated yet.

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

It is. ADD and ADHD are fake "disorders" invented by doctors and pharmaceutical companies to get kids addicted to their drugs and make lifelong customers.

When I was a kid, nobody had ADD/ADHD because it hadn't been fabricated yet.

It's just no discipline.

Re:inb4

[p00kiethebear]

It must be nice to jerk yourself off with a story like that. You're absolutely right. Millions of scientists and doctors and pharmacists are all fucking conspiring to sell your kids ritalin! Are the corporate overlords also making you get vaccinated? It must be nice where you live, being able to stick your head in the sand and make up stories about why things don't exist rather than looking deeply for reasons why they DO.

Re: inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Also, ADHD (but without the name) has been known for over 100 years.

Re:inb4

[tbq]

"That's just called being a kid!"

It's also called parents not parenting their children, which makes it very difficult for teachers to deal with these unparented kids in class. Drugs are a relatively easy band-aid for dealing the behavioral symptoms of kids that are raised by TVs, computers, and other gadgets rather than their parents (who were likely raised the same way). There may be huge, negative ramifications for dosing a significant percentage of an entire generation up to their eyeballs with meds in the foreseeable future.

Re:inb4

[PRMan]

It is overdiagnosed. I've seen kids with ADHD that can sit and play a videogame for 3 hours. They can watch a full-length movie no problem. But when it's time for homework or school, they "can't focus". THOSE kids DO NOT have ADHD.

And then I've seen kids that can't do any of those things. Every 5 minutes they HAVE to do something different. They can't watch a 30-minute TV show. Those are the real cases and need medication.

Re:inb4

[robsku]

Ignorance is a bliss. ADD and ADHD can actually be physically shown as disorder of the brains dopamine system - but you wouldn't know that since you haven't actually studied any real information about ADD/ADHD as it's easier to hold on to your pre-determined opinions when you have no facts to confuse you.

Also, that ADD/ADHD is a "children issue" only is something that makes me angry. I was diagnosed with ADHD at age of 26. Since I've started with medication my life, in certain areas has become much easier - some would say much more "normal", but I like to avoid that term. I was finally able to get through education on IT field - something people like you claimed I had problems only because of lack of motivation. They say that lack of motivation was the reason I couldn't pass a 3-year education even though I tried for 5-years, and they happily miss seeing anything illogical in their statement.

I do sometimes wonder how different my life had been if ADD/ADHD had been known when I was a kid. For sure I would have avoided many problems with school as well as with other problems I made my family go through... Child services tried to find ways to help me and my family, but they didn't know about ADHD back then, so the reasons behind my misbehaviours remained mystery.

May I presume you are a US citizen? I apologize if I'm wrong... However if I'm right then I have less problems understanding how, no matter how ignorant and irrational, you have come to your conclusions. It is true that medical industry is milking this thing - and USA is the leader in over-diagnosing of ADD/ADHD. Still, just like with chronic depression, the fact that some doctors are over diagnosing a medical condition and the fact that pharmaceutical companies are always more than willing to milk such errors to the maximum does not mean that said medical condition is false. Also it's logical fallacy to say that because a condition had not been known before a time, it didn't thus exists before said time.

Re:inb4

[JMJimmy]

It is. ADD and ADHD are fake "disorders" invented by doctors and pharmaceutical companies to get kids addicted to their drugs and make lifelong customers.

  When I was a kid, nobody had ADD/ADHD because it hadn't been fabricated yet.

You were born prior to 1775? Must suck stepping on your balls so much.

Re:inb4

[robsku]

I so wish I had mod points :)

Re: inb4

[robsku]

Actually, no. I presume you are talking about MBD (minimal brain dysfunction)? It's a broad generalized diagnosis that was often the diagnosis for ADD and ADHD people before medical science progressed to know of, understand and diagnose ADD and ADHD. It covered (and still covers?) many other medical conditions that were not fully understood back then.

Re: inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound like someone who either has "perfect" kids or none at all. Spend a few days with my kids unmedicated and I'll bet that you'll be reaching for a bottle, either their meds or something "medicinal" for you. They are very good, loving, and caring, but they just have some miswiring in a small part of their brain. I have had ADHD all of my life and wish that I was diagnosed as such as a kid so that I could have the help I needed, just like my kids and all of the others who fight ADHD and its variants. I envy you who live with "perfect" kids or spouses. I'd love for our family to have a stress-free life. But I know that my kids will be that much stronger for having to conquer this adversity now then when they are older, like I am.

Re:inb4

[robsku]

You make a good point that would be hard to disagree with and not look like fool, but going to the other extreme and denying the whole existence of ADD and ADHD (especially in countries where over diagnosing of it is not rampant as it is in USA) would be irresponsible as well.

Re:inb4

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Nice diagnosis doctor assface.

Check the research.

Basically, ADHD isn't being able to sit still for a long time, it's not being able to focus on things that aren't fun.

For most brains, being able to get through say, homework, isn't a problem. You just sit down, figure, it's going to take about 20 minutes to do all the math problems and you go play video games.

For someone with ADHD, the brain is constantly craving rewards. So video games, movies, etc. all basically jam a fork into the pleasure centers of the brain. So ADHD kids can sit still and enjoy the fuck out of it. When the gears shift, and into say work mode, there's nothing jamming against the pleasure center and the mind loses focus.

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

The ability to "hyper-focus" on certain stimuli (such as video games) is a hallmark symptom of ADHD...

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

> When I was a kid, nobody had ADD/ADHD because it hadn't been fabricated yet.

Uh huh. When I was a kid, nobody had AIDS because it hadn't been fabricated yet.

Re:inb4

[tbq]

You make a good point that would be hard to disagree with and not look like fool, but going to the other extreme and denying the whole existence of ADD and ADHD (especially in countries where over diagnosing of it is not rampant as it is in USA) would be irresponsible as well.

I don't think there is much argument that ADD/ADHD are recognized and classified conditions. It's also obvious that the treatments do help those who have it, otherwise those treatments likely wouldn't be demanded by so many parents/teachers/doctors to try to help their kids. In the US, it seems far too common that we are too quick to diagnose ADD/ADHD and give treatment for symptoms when the underlying cause isn't ADHD at all but often bored kids with unfocused energy merely acting like energetic kids.

Re:inb4

[K. S. Kyosuke]

You need to focus on a film? What are you watching, 2001?

Re:inb4

[digsbo]

I was going to caution you about linking to NYT for medical articles, but saw that the link was written by an MD and also confirms specific details my spouse's special professional expertise (school psychology) confirms. No mod points, so just "thank you".

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true, nobody had ADD/ADHD because they were labelling it as minimal brain dysfunction and then later as hyperkinetic reaction of childhood. It wasn't until the DSM-III where the first mention of ADD was available for diagnosis in the US.

But, the condition itself is one of the oldest conditions that modern mental health professionals have sought to treat and the condition itself shows up in writings form millennia ago.

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, I've got moderate to severe ADHD and some days I really can't sit for more than a few minutes without getting antsy. But, if I have something that's interesting, I can sit there for hours and hours at a time without any loss of focus.

ADHD isn't an inability to focus, it's an inability to control focus. We can generally focus just fine on things that are stimulating, but if there isn't any stimulation our attention will generally go to anything else.

Re:inb4

[ihtoit]

Oh, my God, THIS!

Re:inb4

[JMJimmy]

That's NOT what its all about. It's primarily an executive function disorder. Every aspect of day to day life, including the "pleasurable" aspects are affected. ADHD-H the hyperactivity is to increase blood flow to the brain to allow the communication to occur between the problem solving centres of the brain and the executive function. The attention and emotion centres border the executive area and so, depending on the person, they'll end up distracted or they'll become emotional/stressed.

If what you said was even remotely true then that wouldn't explain ADHD-C/ADHD-I (about 30% of diagnoses) ADHD-I can cause you to focus so intently on what you're doing and be unable to switch (be cause the executive function is screwed up) so you'll sit there doing the same thing and plow through. Doesn't matter how boring or how intensely rewarding it is. I'm just coming down off a 37 hour episode of the most mind numbingly inane research that got me zero reward and set me back. I'll take me 48 hours to recover minimum before I can get back to being productive (hopefully). It's great when I spend that time doing something productive like coding but can ruin a week.

Worst part is, I can't control when it happens or what triggers it because things like self discipline and control are regulated by the executive function centre.

Re:inb4

[Mr.CRC]

Most people who don't have ADHD or who don't deeply understand the neurological research simply don't, will not, or cannot understand.

Hyperactive ADHD is at least directly observable as an abnormal condition. Inattentive ADHD, however, leads to children having their self esteem wrecked by ignorance adults telling them they "lack character" or some other treachery.

As a kid I was able to focus for 16 straight hours, daily, for weeks on end on building electronics projects. That was what my brain found rewarding, along with constant impulsive mischief. When I had to do my social studies homework, I simply could not make myself pay attention to it.

Nothing would have helped except possibly a proper diagnosis and treatment. But even then, the medications are far from perfect and not well tolerated by all, nor is the neurological understanding complete.

You could have tried beating me, sending me to military school, or endless hours of costly psychological therapy sessions. All would have been a failure (some were tried). The former may have been catastrophic, possibly rendering an ADHD kid suicidal, whereas the latter would simply have wasted a lot of money.

Because if your brain is configured to not be able to do what normal people do, which is to resolve themselves to do something they don't like but needs to be done, then you simply can't do it. No amount of effort can change this. Nor do I imply that this is a complete description of ADHD.

Having inattentive ADHD can be very painful. You can really honestly want to just do it. But as soon as you start, you find yourself either getting overcome with immobilizing dullness, or you simply can't help but to jump to some other "temporary" distraction like surfing the www, to get yourself perked up. Only to discover later that the whole day is shot and you've accomplished nothing.

In a society where the predominant world view is still that we have a "soul" (an independent actor that lives somewhere in the "spiritual" mind, that operates the body much as a construction worker operates a backhoe), there is little empathy for the condition of ADHD.

This is sad. People who can only reach the conclusion that "it doesn't exist" about an internal experience that someone else describes but which they do not themselves experience, are basically incapable of vicarious empathy.

Fortunately, we are at a time when neuroscience is finally entering the "steepening slope" phase of its learning curve about the brain, and ADHD is getting a solid science base behind it, despite the popular culture being horribly confused.

Re:inb4

[Mr.CRC]

Isn't it funny how they accuse you of having a lack of motivation, but they don't understand that why they are motivated is because of computations performed by their neural circuitry, including the part that arises the thought "I'm doing this because I really want to succeed!"

Re:inb4

[Livius]

Those are the real cases and need medication.

Those are real cases. Medication may or may not be the appropriate therapy.

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

ADD/ADHD is a money making ploy by big pharma and the docs they give kickbacks to. Parents of today go along with it because they are irresponsible, lazy, sue-crazy pieces of crap who think everybody else should be doing their job for them. Kids who grow up believing in the ADD/ADHD faerie tale enjoy the extra attention, sympathy and free ride that they receive from the clueless.

So you see, I can understand your frustration. You don't like being called out for the reckless and entitled person that you are.

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what cures that "disorder" real well? Discipline and exercise, the two things that children of today lack and that the parents of today are too lazy to enforce.

Re: inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

That and the social shields that protect those who are correctly perceived to be out of place. We treat them like they were precious and misunderstood, make up important-sounding nouns like ADHD and "Asperger's Syndrome" and attribute to them qualities they don't have so they won't feel bad for their deficiences. Let's disparage them, call them "spazzes" and the like, stop pretending being a freak is cool (it is not) and the pressure that comes with social stigma will cause them either to bow into place or break out and stop bothering us Real People.

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody had trouble focusing because we got plenty of exercise and participated in things that promoted discipline. Kids now are obese, sitting in front of a screen all day and their parents don't give a fuck about them. That is the real difference. It's not a disorder, it's a lack of trying.

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

This is you: "Look at me! Pity me! Let me be lazy! Do things for me! Give me drugs! Let me get away with shit because I have a disorder!"

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, absolutely. What a lot of people don't understand, including myself until I was diagnosed and began taking Vyvanse about 1 year ago (at 25), is that the medication is actually a stimulant! It does not 'calm you down'.

If you have ADHD, your brain does not produce the normal amount of stimulation that is required to focus on a task (i.e. not get bored or distracted). Thus you are constantly switching between tasks, as your brain seeks the stimulation that it craves.

So if you switch to a task that is inherently more stimulating (entertainment is specifically designed to be exactly that), you will be able to focus on it. In fact, one of the major symptoms of ADHD is sporadic periods of intense focus, usually when being introduced to something new.

I was very wary of taking the medication at first because I thought that I would become obsessive or be compelled to work (reminiscent of the Simpsons episode where Bart takes 'Focusin'). However, what I found after starting the trial was that instead it allowed me to choose what to focus on.

By receiving that baseline amount of stimulation, I can now take all the mental energy I previously expended on 'trying to focus', and put it directly into the task at hand. It's the difference between keeping the right amount of oil in the car all the time, vs dumping a bunch in whenever the engine starts to seize.

Re:inb4

[Anonymous Coward]

You should go educate yourself about ADHD, the entire point of the disorder is that when you are doing something that is not enjoyable you cannot concentrate. You see when you are having all kinds of fun it doesn't take effort of concentration to keep having fun. It is when it is not fun that you must use that ability and people with ADHD do not fare so well in that situation.

Re:inb4

[riT-k0MA]

Having inattentive ADHD can be very painful. You can really honestly want to just do it. But as soon as you start, you find yourself either getting overcome with immobilizing dullness, or you simply can't help but to jump to some other "temporary" distraction like surfing the www, to get yourself perked up. Only to discover later that the whole day is shot and you've accomplished nothing.

That's more or less how I feel, except that it actually 'hurts' (the best way I can describe it) to concentrate on 'boring' tasks.

Re:inb4

[beastofburdon]

"ADD and ADHD can actually be physically shown as disorder of the brains dopamine system"

If this is so, then why the fuck is there no test for it that involves dopamine? The answer is simple, it isn't.

Re: inb4

[beastofburdon]

Since you want to go there.
I have several friends and family members who have children that often stay with my parents for a few days at a time. Those kids are regarded by their parents, friends, and other family members as holy terrors. The funny thing is, when they visit my parents every single one of them behaves. They also love visiting them. The way children behave is almost always a direct reflection of those in charge of them.

Re: inb4

[robsku]

It's because such tests are costly and unconvient for diagnosing when (proper even) diagnosis can cheap and easily proven via neuropsychiatrics. Also diagnose this way might diagnose multiple other possible diagnosis. The neurophysical reasons
were found in testing difference between "normal" and ADHD people, it's not necessarily fit for diagnosing ADHD.

Rick Deckard says...

[Anonymous Coward]

"We call it voight-kampff for short"

No worries about Ritalin

[jrivar59]

If used incorrect, just apply the antidote: Ritalout.

Re:No worries about Ritalin

[Sporkinum]

Apply directly to forehead.

Re:No worries about Ritalin

[Anonymous Coward]

Christ Jesus, what fucking dipshits moderate up god-awful tripe like this? Boy, this is one ZaNy "joke", presumably for the class of persons that find "Everybody Loves Raymond" to be high comedy.

Re:No worries about Ritalin

[delt0r]

Its a reference to a south park episode. http://southpark.cc.com/full-e...

I would be very interested...

[sudden.zero]

...in how they determined that their control group didn't have ADHD since it's so hard to diagnose, lol! All jesting aside I think that this is very interesting, and if it works I would love for my step daughter to be tested this way. She has been diagnosed ADHD, and I believe the diagnosis to be correct. She has trouble focusing on anything regardless of environmental variables.

Re:I would be very interested...

[qpqp]

She has trouble focusing on anything regardless of environmental variables.

As others have pointed out, in most cases this is called "being a kid." If something's presented in a boring way, try to do that differently. And, more importantly, try to think outside your box and find out things on which she does focus pretty well.

Re:I would be very interested...

[Andtalath]

Nope.
Notice the "regardless of the circumstances".

Medicating with amphetamine all the time is obviosuly quite moronic.
I myself need it to function normally in the work-environment.

I didn't even realize what people meant by saying "just concentrate" until I took my first methylphenedate when I was 25.

ADHD is an issue, and it's NOT just kids being kids.
It's a fundamentally different way for the brain/body to function then the norm.

Re:I would be very interested...

[Mister Liberty]

Yes and no.
There are two kinds of ADHD. The 'old' one and the hyped one.
The former is pathologically founded in the child; the latter is socially founded in the parent.

Re:I would be very interested...

[robsku]

It's a fundamentally different way for the brain/body to function then the norm.

And "anti-ADHD" people, having ignored actual information and studies about it, lack the knowledge that it's actually physically proven to be caused by irregular functioning of the brains dopamine system. Pardon my france in case the above seems linguistically wrong - personally I blame my ADHD ;)

Re:I would be very interested...

[X-Ray Artist]

This is more than "just being a kid." We all have to cope with boredom. Expecting things to be customized to our particular level of interest in unrealistic. I have been ADHD since childhood and it causes problems from time to time. Fortunately, I work at a job that has plenty of distractions as part of the job. Hopefully, I usually remember to get back to the tasks I have been distracted from. I tried the drug solution for awhile and it did make me more able to concentrate, but I didn't like the stifling of my creative side. ADHD/ADD are real but often overdiagnosed.

Re:I would be very interested...

[qpqp]

ADHD/ADD are real but often overdiagnosed

That was exactly my point.

Expecting things to be customized to our particular level of interest in unrealistic.

That's also true (mostly), however some kids adapt better and some worse.

Re:I would be very interested...

[qpqp]

Notice the "regardless of the circumstances".

Yeah, however I just took this as a generalization, since it'd be quite a statement to say that someone tried everything.

I didn't even realize what people meant by saying "just concentrate" until I took my first methylphenedate when I was 25.

Not meaning to troll, but if you try some acid, you'll realize there's a whole spectrum of "awareness" and "concentration" that you weren't aware of, if you feel such a difference from methylphenidate. (Just make sure to have some good weed and relaxing, interesting, positive music, in case it gets too much.)

Medicating with amphetamine all the time is obviosuly quite moronic.

I'd even say it's dangerous and should be a criminal offense to prescribe that without having 99.99999% proof, judging from my (extensive) experience with party kids and goers.

Re:I would be very interested...

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree, methylphenidate is basically completely harmless in the doses prescribed to people with ADHD, Adderall OTOH causes inevitable Parkinson's and should only be taken by individuals who already have Parkinson's and are trying to eek that last bit out of the brain before it completely fails.

Methylphenidate itself is safe for long term use and is one of the better understood medications used for mental health issues. When I take it, I usually take it in small doses as a way of relaxing. It frees up my mind long enough to relax so that the stress doesn't get to me. I'll usually take it before bed to make it easier to fall asleep.

Re:I would be very interested...

[slew]

Although you might disparage so called anti-ADHD people as being as a group ignorant, likewise some ADHD proponents exhibit a lack of knowledge of analogous medical anomalies like antibiotic abuse, or even somatic and conversion disorders (including, Münchausen syndrome or Münchausen syndrome by proxy)...

FWIW, it appears (to me anyhow) the current diagnostic of ADHD is problematic in that it is really an attempt to categorize a vague set of symptoms (effectively a syndrome) and associate this with a generic treatment plan. This is not unlike having a fever, stomach aches, etc and looking for some sort of pre-emptive and/or palliative cure in antihistamines and antibiotics (instead of perhaps waiting for a bacterial culture to verify the diagnosis before taking antibiotics). Sure some of those with symptoms might have TB or Salmonella poisoning, or have cold that results in secondary bacterial infection like pneumonia, so you can't rule that out, that possibility doesn't make it an inevitable (although personally, that's happened many times to me).

Studies like this ADHD study can really help to improve the situation greatly and hopefully result in a diagnostic tool that has much higher predictive powers for designing treatments rather than broad-spectrum palliative medications that can be over-prescribed and potentially have a net-negative outcome.

With more discrimination, sometimes newer treatment will emerge (like Neuraminidase inhibitors like Tamiflu did for actual viral influenza) that actually start to clinically improve outcomes (rather than just vaguely mask symptoms). In the meantime, palliatives are generally tradeoffs and if Ritalin actually helps a patient's situation relative to the side-effects, it is certainly useful, but as we can see with the anti-biotic over-use fiasco, the patents (or even the doctors) aren't necessarily always capable of making good tradeoffs in many cases, which leads me to be skeptical generally of ADHD being as wide spread as it is diagnosed (and similarly treated)...

My wife is a doctor and I know from her there is still strong bias and pressure to preemptively prescribe anti-biotics in the medical community (both from patents and over-worked doctors) even with all we know now... The main reason given... Just in case, side-effects are usually minimal, cannot treat the underlying virus anyhow and want to do something...

I suspect many feel the same is true with ADHD. It isn't that a brain/body disorder analogous to ADHD doesn't exist, it's just that we must be careful what we are trying to treat and why since we do not yet have the best diagnostic tools available to distinguish this disorder from other disorders for which we do not know the cause only symptoms, nor do we have a great understanding of the treatment outcomes relative to a specific underlying cause.

Re:I would be very interested...

[Mr.CRC]

You realize, of course, that a large segment of the population don't even believe that their functioning is a result of the functioning of an electro-chemical computer in the first place. So they will never understand ADHD, or mental illness.

Re:I would be very interested...

[robsku]

This post, unlike the ones just simply in denial of the whole AD(H)D existing at all, is hardly something I would disagree with :) You make very good points and present them clearly and politely (more so than I'm capable at times).

Also, I am concerned of misdiagnosis and over subscribing of stimulants (especially for children) that is rampant in some countries (USA being one such place as far as I've come to understand). It's not only damaging to those who are being misdiagnosed but in the long run it may well damage AD(H)D people who find themselves not being able to get treatment easily...

...which is often the case where I live. It's not easy to get an AH(H)D diagnosis and stimulant treatment here in Finland. While we have, generally speaking, a quite good public healthcare system here, I know from my own experience and from what I've heard of other adult AD(H)D people and parents of AD(H)D children, it can sometimes be a real fight to even get you in waiting line to be tested for AD(H)D. I fought from 2003 to 2006 to get there and got diagnosed in 2007 (at age of 27). Still I do think it's better this way than if it were "too easy" to get diagnosis (I'm referring to misdiagnosis problem) - but there's always room for improvement :)

Re:I would be very interested...

[robsku]

Unfortunately, yes I do.

Re:I would be very interested...

[Anonymous Coward]

The only reason you support a bullshit and baseless "disorder" like ADD is because you like always having a scapegoat. You even used it to blame your lack of knowledge and subsequent poor "explanation".

Re:I would be very interested...

[robsku]

That was a joke - hell, I even put a smiley there for morons and simpletons to get it right, but such efforts are often futile as we all know. English is not my native language but I've never had ADHD related problems in learning it - as said, it was a flaming obvious joke.

You can reply but don't expect an answer after this. I've no desire to argue with anti-vaccination, AGW denialism promoting useless science ignorant masses of morons.

Re:I would be very interested...

[Andtalath]

And that is why, at least in Sweden, you aren't just thrown a bunch of pills.
When I got my concerta treatment, I had to go in once a week with detailed logs of how it affected me.
For a couple of months.

I still have to go in once a year or so to refill my prescriptions.

Re:I would be very interested...

[Andtalath]

Yes.
I don't believe this is true on /. though.

Re:I would be very interested...

[Andtalath]

1: It's not.
The basic problem is that people with ADHD (at least not me) can't willingly choose what to focus on.
Ever.
For me, without methylphenedate, I can basically present something to my eyes and hope it registers.
With it, I can choose to focus on it.
Yes, the difference is that big.

2: Many drugs can definitely shift perceptions.
Loads of them aren't very dangerous either.
ADHD-meds are basically there to help you establish a base-line so that you can function like a normal person in certain situations where otherwhise, you simply couldn't.

3: And just how do you think you reach high levels of probabilities?
In general, first you perform small-scale highly controlled experiences.
Then you go ever larger and less and less controlled.
Currently, it's been shown to fundamentally change peoples lives, mine included, to the better.
And in some cases give easily reversible consequences.
Your solution would condemn a couple of percent of every human, globally, to just suck it out instead of using a chemical which gives them the ability to function.

Eh, I thought there already was...

[Ecuador]

I thought there already was a definitive diagnostic test. See here or here (for those who like me are not in the US or a country where you can access the videos, you will need a browser plugin to view them, e.g. I have Media Hint - sorry for the inconvenience).

Fake diseases

[oldmac31310]

True, it is always difficult to diagnose invented conditions, diseases etc. But sure, there is money to be made from other people's misery. Diagnose at will!

Re:Fake diseases

[Lazere]

Hardly an invented condition when people with ADHD respond to stimulants differently from others.

Re:Fake diseases

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, welcome to human variety. Everyone responds to stimulants differently than everyone else. So?

Re:Fake diseases

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardly an invented condition when people with ADHD respond to stimulants differently from others.

Yeah, I can take 100 people and put them in a room with a big bag of pot too, and WOW, wouldn't you know it? There's all kinds of different reactions. Some people got really hungry. Some people laughed a lot, some got really paranoid, and others just fell asleep. And those are the varied reactions to consuming a natural plant. Just imagine what kind of side effects and reactions you're going to see across those same 100 people when you introduce them to chemically-laded pharmaceuticals...

Sorry, but the jury is still out on the whole ADD/ADHD mess. Kind of hard to take it seriously when even the "father" of ADHD seriously questioned the validity of diagnoses and suggested we were over-prescribing the shit out of it, which is rather obvious when you look at the statistics. (Yeah, real surprise there to find that Big Pharma would be more interested in profits than ethics...)

Re:Fake diseases

[iggymanz]

1. We hypothesize a disorder X
2. We observe eople respond differently to stimulants
3. We conclude disorder X exists

Nope, back to logic 101 for you

Re:Fake diseases

[oldmac31310]

I totally agree. To their undying shame, many parents and teachers just do not want to have to deal with children that don't conform. Stamping out natural character traits in childhood does not bode well for the child's adult life. Why was my original post modded troll? Ha, ha. I suppose the fake disease asbergers crowd saw to that! We're all diseased! We have an excuse for our bad behaviour! Don't blame me, it was my diagnosed condition's fault. Bah!

Re: Fake diseases

[Anonymous Coward]

Must be nice to be perfect. You had better hope someone doesn't think the same as you about Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, or any other brain-related issue when you get older. However, it sounds like some atrophy has already started to occur so you'd better find a sympathetic ear now before it's too late.

Re:Fake diseases

[Lazere]

Nice try. Not quite right though. It's more like:
1. We observer some people having concentration issues across the board.
2. We hypothesize disorder X with prediction Y
3. We run brain scans and find out prediction Y is right
4. We hypothesize that stimulants may work differently on these people
5. We run tests and find out that stimulants work differently on these people
6. We conclude disorder X exists and stimulants can treat it

So, back to scientific method 101 for you.

Re:Fake diseases

[iggymanz]

plenty of reputable doctors question the very existence of the disease, since children diagnosed with it in one setting show no signs of it in others (doing something they are actually interested in). So your point 1 might have a problem and if so the whole thing collapses.

Re:Fake diseases

[Lazere]

They can question all they want, but if they want to disprove it, they'll have to provide some evidence to counteract the evidence that's already there.

Re:Fake diseases

[ColdWetDog]

Nobody (outside Slashdot and other highly reputable bits of the Internet) really questions whether ADD exists.

Many people wonder about a number of aspects of the problem:

- Where the break between normal and abnormal is. Like most biological issues, this behavior is on a continuum. Where do you intervene?
- Which leads to the question of diagnostic accuracy and efficiency.

We know that amphetamine class drugs are helpful in real ADD. But these drugs (like virtually all drugs) have risks and benefits. Since amphetamines carry significant risks, who do you treat and how long. It is also clear than non-pharmeceutical approaches can work, but these are typically labor and time intensive. How do you manage this?

So there is plenty to discuss within the framework of diagnosis and treatment of the disease. But it most certainly exists.

Re:Fake diseases

[beelsebob]

Why do people assume that any disease that they can't physically see the scars of isn't actually a disease at all?

Re:Fake diseases

[TapeCutter]

We have an excuse for our bad behaviour!.

What's your excuse for that post, "delusions of grandeur"?

Re:Fake diseases

[William Baric]

It's true some people refuse to describe something they don't understand as a "disease", but I'd say a lot more people will categorize any difference from the norm as a "disease" instead of simply accepting it for what it is : a difference. Is ADHD a disease or a difference?

Re:Fake diseases

[Mr.CRC]

The shortcomings of the medical establishment are not a valid counterpoint to the the scientific facts of ADHD. Yes the psychiatrists have fucked things up by probably over-diagnosing. But people try to claim that ADHD doesn't exist because the psychs. made it up and because "there's no diagnostic test for it." The psychs. should be taken to task by the neuro-scientists for screwing up public understanding terribly. But, there are also the religious and the psycho-cult (Scientologists) with their anti-psychiatry crusade.

Re:Fake diseases

[Mr.CRC]

And so WHY can't the kid do what isn't interesting and can do what is interesting?

Re:Fake diseases

[iggymanz]

what an absurd statement to make without researching it. Of course plenty of reputable doctors question the existence of this imagined "disease"

Comparing condition of someone apathetic to a boring task to them jack up on amphetamines and claiming that proves something is just laughable.

It does not exist, it is an excuse, and a source of income to big pharmy and big healthcare.

100 percent bullshit

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

The persistence of the notion of this disorder is disturbing. The method by which it's diagnosed is faulty. You can't come in after all this legacy of crap and tell us that you can diagnose it physiologically using a single criteria like this. These assertions will be disproven within the year. The entire ADHD diagnosis phenomenon is the culture struggling with the ramifications of human interaction with technology. You can't set the example of "pay close attention to the stimulating box for long periods of time" over multiple generations and not expect a massive change in the way kids behave. Whether they fit in with our plans or not, these kids are NORMAL. It's the expectation that this generation will behave like the previous one which is faulty.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire ADHD diagnosis phenomenon is the culture struggling with the ramifications of human interaction with technology.

That's funny. I was diagnosed with it when the extent of high tech in my daily world was a walkman.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

On the plus side, even if we accept the assertion that the disorder is nonsense (which is questionable; but for the sake of argument); the usual treatment has the virtue of being sufficiently useful, safe, and even pleasant that plenty of people who don't even suspect ADHD will try to score some through alternate channels or complain until they get a prescription.

The risks aren't zero, and there are certain people who should stay away; but psychostimulants are some very nice drugs.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Since one of the technologies which has been identified as a contributing factor to ADHD (the television) predates the Walkman by several decades, it's not funny at all. Your attempt at being clever is, though. ;)

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Tailhook]

He was right except for the part about "interactions with technology." We've built up some sort of model kid and heavily medicate those that fail to follow the model closely. That model kid happens to be highly risk adverse, entirely compatible with quiet suburban life and profoundly concerned with the sensitivities of its elders, their jet set lifestyles and half dozen credit lines. It's got little to do with stimulating boxes and everything to do with shoehorning kids into compliant slots in their parents world.

His skepticism of this supposed new diagnostic method is spot on. This is pseudo-science used to rationalize drugging people that don't fit the model, employ vast numbers of highly paid specialists and sink wealth into "health care."

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire ADHD diagnosis phenomenon is the culture struggling with the ramifications of human interaction with technology.

That's funny. I was diagnosed with it when the extent of high tech in my daily world was a walkman.

And when the Walkman was in a world full of newspapers and books, it was every bit as distracting as the internet is today.

Believe me I know. There's no way in hell I could have ignored my parents half as well as I was able to with a Walkman and a pair of headphones on.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Which medical school did you graduate from?

Re:100 percent bullshit

[mveloso]

Humans have been interacting with technology since the dawn of the species.

"Hey grog, stop staring into that fucking fire all the time, it'll ruin your eyes"
"That beer is going to kill you"
"That meat stuff you're eating is unnatural. Humans were meant to eat berries and plants and shit."
"Cooking is going to rot your brain. Meat was meant to be eaten raw."

I mean, come on. Blame chemicals, which are more likely to be the problem than "man interacting with technology." That's like blaming your fleshbot for the fact that you don't meet any women - oh wait.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Andtalath]

Could you please just talk with any psychiatrist for this subject for five minutes?

Stop trying to apply common sense, which is basically just a nice word for prejudive, instead of lookint at the facts.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

You misunderstand me. I'm not blaming technology. I'm blaming our lack of understanding of how our interaction with it affects us as a group over time.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

On the plus side, even if we accept the assertion that the disorder is nonsense (which is questionable; but for the sake of argument); the usual treatment has the virtue of being sufficiently useful, safe, and even pleasant that plenty of people who don't even suspect ADHD will try to score some through alternate channels or complain until they get a prescription.

The risks aren't zero, and there are certain people who should stay away; but psychostimulants are some very nice drugs.

I have to reject that. Slippery slope. If we take enough drugs, we can totally mechanize and work/play on our machines/selves/machineselves all the time, and be "content" about it. Why would that be good, as opposed to changing our expectation of the next generation being the same mental configuration as the previous one?

Re:100 percent bullshit

[trytoguess]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but from I know of human history the expectation of children was that they should be able to quietly observe their parents and learn from them. And of course early actions like hunting would require paying close attention for long periods of time. I suppose ADHD would've been ok when we were hunter gathers, but once we moved on to tool useage and planning on ways to procure food, it it would've become a liability.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

Which medical school did you graduate from?

You don't know? I graduated from the school that passes out pieces of paper that prove I'm more authoritative than you are. Look at my creds, they prove everything! It's way better than thinking about what I'm saying. Now shut up and call me Doctor.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Lazere]

ADHD meds are no more a slippery slope than Antidepressants before them. And they were no more a slippery slope than the Tobacco/Pot/Alcohol/Coffee before them. Arguments like yours are why Slippery Slope is considered a logical fallacy.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

ADHD meds are no more a slippery slope than Antidepressants before them. And they were no more a slippery slope than the Tobacco/Pot/Alcohol/Coffee before them. Arguments like yours are why Slippery Slope is considered a logical fallacy.

I'm saying that seeking chemical sources to soothe over the overabundance of reward-based interactions we are experiencing will naturally progress towards escalating both the drugs and the reward-based interactions. I apologize if I misused the term "slippery slope". Invoking antidepressants as an example of harmlessness is far more questionable than any incorrect naming of a type of fallacy I may have done.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you propose we do for kids who do not fit the standard model and are therefore thrown to the wolves without pharmaceutical help? We know the issue, we know a variety of solutions, but society has not responded. Do you propose we just let people be collatoral damage?

Re:100 percent bullshit

[robsku]

There is no "massive change" in percentage of people with ADD/ADHD though, it just was previously not understood. I can sympathesize with you though as you come from diseased culture where over- and mis- diagnosing AD(H)D is the norm (wtf is that shit about "pat close attention..." about? That has nothing to do with methods of diagnosing ADD or ADHD in civilized societies) and adults that are lazy fsck's who do happily accept drugs as substitute for parenting to escape their responsibilities. Sad as it is, your diseased culture (and I make no claims that I live in perfect one) doesn't mean ADD and ADHD are fake diseased - they are very well known and studied. It used to be that people with (real) AD(H)D were diagnosed with MBD, a very general and broad diagnose which covered many back then not understood medical conditions - yet the percentage of people diagnosed with MBD was way way way lower than the percent diagnosed with ADD/ADHD *IN USA* today. The rest of the world is different though.

Also, AD(H)D is not just "kid thing" - I was diagnosed with ADHD at age of 26 (and year 2006).

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Lazere]

No, you used the term "slippery slope" correctly. The very premise of your slope is flawed. As a society, we've had mind altering drugs that directly stimulate our reward centers for as long as we've been a society. Nearly everyone takes some kind, but we still have an incredibly small percentage of people looking to use the harder stuff (antidepressants, ADHD drugs, street drugs). Given this history, it seems highly unlikely that we're heading toward a future of "mechanized work/play" any time soon.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[ColdWetDog]

but psychostimulants are some very nice drugs.

Indeed. Caffeine is remarkably safe an effective, if not incredibly powerful. Coca leaves are also quite safe. Cocaine and amphetamines not so much. Of course, then one gets into the murky question of how much you let individuals control and take responsibility for their actions. I give the US another generation before pretty much everything is either on the table for everyone to snort or everything the other side of the classic triumvirate (alcohol, tobacco and firearms, oops, coffee) will get you tossed in jail.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[ColdWetDog]

If you're looking for facts, don't go to a psychiatrist. Solace, understanding, compassion, drugs maybe. But not facts.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Tailhook]

What do you propose we do for kids who do not fit the standard model and are therefore thrown to the wolves without pharmaceutical help?

Does your question have as a premise that all those treated are supposed to be treated? I think it does and I don't believe that, so I wont address your question. I believe most shouldn't be treated because their behavior isn't wrong; it just fails to fit well into a badly distorted culture. So if you accept my premise of widespread over medication we're left with these alternatives; stop the abuse of drugs and let the wolves, as you say, have them or continue this sick spiral of pseudoscience and physco-engineering until we have secured our Stepford future.

There was an important word used above; "most." Most being "treated" today shouldn't. That means "some" should. Some, however, should not mean little Johnny spends his teens and early adulthood on medical grade speed because he got in a fist fight at eight and the libtard, kumbaya world view that runs everything involving children can't tolerate it.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[ihtoit]

how about just be a fucking parent??

Sincerely,

A hugely successful parent.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[ihtoit]

uh... caffeine is sixty times more potent than cocaine. Read the literature.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[slew]

No, you used the term "slippery slope" correctly. The very premise of your slope is flawed. As a society, we've had mind altering drugs that directly stimulate our reward centers for as long as we've been a society. Nearly everyone takes some kind, but we still have an incredibly small percentage of people looking to use the harder stuff (antidepressants, ADHD drugs, street drugs). Given this history, it seems highly unlikely that we're heading toward a future of "mechanized work/play" any time soon.

FWIW, historically, Opium dens and crack houses did not consume much more than a small percentage of actual people, but it was significant enough to cause wide-spread effect on the population as a whole. Just because we aren't headed toward a future of "mechanized work/play", doesn't mean that the slope isn't slippery, it's just that you aren't likely to slip too far, but even then some might not like the consequences of slipping a small amount (depending on your definition of "small")...

Re:100 percent bullshit

[TapeCutter]

His skepticism of this supposed new diagnostic method is spot on. This is pseudo-science used to rationalize drugging people that don't fit the model, employ vast numbers of highly paid specialists and sink wealth into "health care."

This is just Chomsky style conspiratorial nonsense. What model? Who came up with the plan to employ these specialist, and to what end?

Western family structures have not been as diverse as they are now for a very long time. You are as much an enabler of modern society as you are a victim of it. Human nature is what it is, you cannot escape it at best you can be aware of it. A major theme in human nature with an unbroken trail leading back to a time before we were anatomically human is that every generation believes they are special and have all the answers, they don't really change their tune until their own kids start disagreeing with that stance. This is the way "nature intended", if nothing else it ensures a stable society and explains why the vast majority of our leaders have always been "elders" with adult children.

Having said all that, I do think the GP fraternity has a lot of explaining to do and ignorance to heal among themselves wrt the over prescribing of such drugs.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Mr.CRC]

WTF are you talking about, they work on completely different neurotransmitter systems and by different mechanisms (one an agonist, the other an antagonist). How can you even make meaningful comparisons of such apples and oranges?

The problem with cocaine is that it's short lived, and the brain's dopamine circuit activity undershoots when it wears off, leaving one with an awful depressing crash.

Cocaine is nothing but a novelty, though one that sheds valuable light on the workings of the brain.

Someone figured out that something structurally similar could have similar effects and synthesized methylphenidate (in an time when you could do it in your basement, administer it to your wife, and have it all be legal)! Just imagine how much scientific progress in drug and neuro-scientific discovery has been inhibited by the war on drugs.

MPH is much slower to take effect, and slower to wear off, and so has more of the good effects of a moderate dose of cocaine, with much less of the bad effects. Hence, it is a useful drug for ADHD, whereas cocaine could never be.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

A psychologist once told me : it's OK to be different, as long as you are happy. Then, that same psychologist, told me he wanted to help me with my autism, meaning he wanted me to learn how to suppress who I was in order to act in society the correct way. So basically, he thought I had to fit into the model and the "it's OK to be different" was just bullshit (even if that psychologist didn't realize it).

When I was a boy in school, no one wanted me to help me becoming more "normal". I was who I was and that was it. I suffered because the educational system was not adequate to who I was, but at least no one wanted to "fix" me. Now, kids with autism are considered as having a problem and are followed by an educator or a psychologist in order to "help" them becoming "normal". We don't accept them and make them a place in society, we try to make them fit. We use a hammer to make sure those triangles can fit into the round shape.

It's not a conspiracy, it's just human nature. Classification, determination of what we think works best and then corrections to what we consider as flaws is natural. The parent poster is right, society (and particularly psychology) is imposing models, and everyone must fit into one of those constructed models. If someone doesn't, then he must be fixed.

As for western family structures being diverse, I will agree cultures and behaviors are indeed locally more diverse, thanks to immigration, but the world as a whole is a lot less diverse than what it was a hundred years. In fact, I don't even have to go as far as a hundred years ago. Thirty years ago, I did travel a bit and I saw a lot of big cultural differences. Now, I'd say all cultures are more or less becoming the same everywhere.

Finally, on your rambling about "every generation believing they are special", you have to understand that one of the characteristics of our "human nature" is that culture and environment play a big part in who we are. Our behavior is not only the product of our genes, but also of our education and everything surrounding us. That means kids nowadays are not the same as kids in the sixties. Baby boomers, the X generation and the Y generation are indeed different people. So yes, every generation are indeed special.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Lazere]

No matter what happens, there are going to be some who don't like it. That's life.

Re:100 percent bullshit

[Andtalath]

Therapist would be all of those except drugs.

But, you are wrong regardless.

Facts are basically what we call the most likely reasons for something to be in a certain way.
Which is exactly what psychiatrists try to ascertain.

Re:Kids just need a whoopin

[oldmac31310]

Beat on the brat, beat on the brat, beat on the brat with a baseball bat...

The drugs are terrible

[bluefoxlucid]

They put me on methylphenedate. Then they put me on Risperdone to control the psychosis induced by methylphenedate. The drugs are horrible. The only thing worse is Prednizone.

Phenotropil is effective in small doses, with fewer and less severe side effects. I did the pharmacology myself, with lots of Googling. Psychosis isn't a side effect--Phenotropil sharply controls, reduces, and prevents dementia--but INSOMNIA sure as hell is!

Okay, I found better drugs. But the drugs still have bad side effects. Let's face it: Insomnia is bad. I have always had delayed sleep phase disorder (self-diagnosis): if I don't rigidly discipline my sleep, any deviation causes me to stay awake. Stay up until 10:30? Become no longer tired, until 1-2am, then sleep until noon--and continue to do this until I somehow fix my sleep cycle, so I can't ever have a night out. On-call fucking sucks. And now, due to further conditioning, I not only can't sleep early, but I can't stay in bed past 7am; I'm sleep-deprived because my body refuses to get more than 4-6 hours of sleep!

I could take sleep drugs. Melatonin no longer works: after some occasional use, it now only works in high doses; and both high doses and chronic use cause my nuts to ache for extended periods, which I thought was just me sleeping on my side or something... until I found out melatonin affects testosterone production and can be bad for the testicles. Whoops. Valerian... I ran through a railroad crossing barrier. Ambien and Allegra I've seen do the same: you're incredibly fucking high, but you feel fine... until you crash into a parked car, or smile and nod while a pedestrian wanders in front of you. Thud.

That doesn't mean drugs are BAD; they're risk. You risk side effects against a disease. Is your ADHD worse than ... potential insomnia? Potential minor psychosis? Psychosis can be MAJOR if you're prone to dementia. Sleep drugs may not ruin your life; out of millions of cases, I know one person who almost died because Ambien affects him for 10 hours and he didn't know that. Of course you should take life-saving drugs, and life-enhancing drugs, if the side effects don't occur or are less bad than your symptoms.

I think we should drop back to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and floatation-REST as our first attempts for ADHD and Aspergers and insomnia. CBT is a particular sticking point in insomnia: bad sleep hygiene is terrible, and parents are horrible parents for forcing their kids into bed. Go to bed even if you're not tired? Fuck you, mom. If you're not asleep in 10 minutes, GET OUT OF BED. Don't do other things in bed. Wake your ass up in the morning; if you're tired, too bad. Get up. When you're sleepy, you'll sleep at night.

So yeah. Let's eject this ADHD magic pill bullshit. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, physical activity, and flotation-REST to start; move up to lighter drugs (lighter side effects, even if less effective), and then into the heavy shit (methylphenedate, adderall, drug cocktails). Throwing methylphenedate down someone's throat as a first option is like launching MIRV nukes three seconds after someone stands and shakes his fist at the UN table.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

TLDR, your issues may be hormonal and or metabolic as well.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[spads]

I would try elavil. It turned out to be the key for my insomnia. I had to adjust to very low dose (10 mg, 2 nights/wk) in order not to develop a tolerance, though. Had profound effects at higher dose, which was quite interesting, but just not sustainable, unfortunately. Insomnia is the leading killer I contend with. I think AD(HD) is a reality, but not much to be done but training oneself and as much as possible leading a balanced and productive life. ("balanced" <=> not pushing oneself unhealthily).

Re:The drugs are terrible

[tofu2go]

If you require risperidone to control psychosis, it sounds to me like were being overdosed with the methylphenidate. Rather than trying to correct the overdosing of one medication with another that antagonizes dopamine, they should have just laid off on the methylphenidate... It might also suggests that you are not dopamine deficient, and I can't help but think that you may have been misdiagnosed....

It is interesting that you have insomnia with the methylphenidate. As someone who was recently started on Adderall, my sleep actually "improved" since starting the medication.

Disclosure: I am not a doctor. A lot of us on this board will be expressing opinions that are health related and could have serious consequences, so it is worth reminding everyone that you should consult a medical professional if you have questions or concerns regarding your, or your family's, health.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

Except the psychosis is only a symptom if it would have manifested itself later.

Sorry your treatments didn't work, but the fact that they put so many different problems under the umbrella of ADHD, that no one understand anything other than their own situation.

Some diagnosis and treatment really IS straightforward, and does work.

I speak anecdotally for my unique situation, but then again, so do you; I can just admit it.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[njnnja]

move up to lighter drugs (lighter side effects, even if less effective), and then into the heavy shit (methylphenedate, adderall, drug cocktails)

What are "lighter drugs"? Not trying to call you out; I appreciate the level of honesty in your post. But I thought that stimulants were lighter drugs, compared to, say, antidepressants or antipsychotics

Re:The drugs are terrible

[afidel]

On Melatonin, this study says there is no decrease in testoserone production.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[Andtalath]

In my experience (I'm from Sweden and have an ADHD diagnosis and know a lot of people with the same one), the right way is to have a bit of both.

The pills won't "cure" anything.
They will, in many cases, dampen the symtoms.

And that is all.

Extremely useful for some, including me.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[TubeSteak]

I have always had delayed sleep phase disorder (self-diagnosis)

Melatonin no longer works: after some occasional use, it now only works in high doses;

Melatonin isn't a sleeping pill* and you're probably not using it correctly.

The correct** way to use melatonin is in low doses 5~8 hours before bed time.
Melatonin is your brain's way of saying "hey, it's dark out, let's push over the chemical dominoes that will lead to sleep."

On the other end, when you wake up, you either need a light box or some sunshine.
(Ideally you want a light source of at least 10,000 lumens at 480nm (IIRC))
This sets off another chain of chemical reactions that let your brain know that it's time to wake up.
As a result, it prevents your sleep phase from shifting forward by however much your delay is.

*Most of the usage directions you find online are wrong.
**I'm not a sleep doctor but I talked to one recently, you should too.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

Many studies show that 6 hours of sleep is optimal. Just saying.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[Sanians]

Let me guess:

You often wake up to go to the bathroom, only to find once you're there that you really didn't need to go that badly. (Remember when you were a kid and you'd wake up in the morning almost ready to burst? That's normal. Waking up several times a night to empty a half-full bladder is not.)

Also, you sometimes have nightmares where you're running away from something, or doing anything that's physically exhausting, and then you wake up and breathe heavily for a while to catch your breath? (Guess what: Dreams are just imagination, they don't make you out of breath.)

I think you may have a sleep disorder. Specifically, either sleep apnea or upper airway resistance syndrome. In either event, lack of breathing will cause you to awaken, but by the time you're conscious, the problem is gone, so your mind doesn't know why you woke up. So it just blames the most annoying thing it can note at the moment: some really-not-that-loud noise, your not-that-uncomfortable matress, your half-full bladder, your kind-of-hungry stomach, or whatever. If it's bad enough, you'll end up so awake that you can't fall asleep again for hours.

The delayed sleep phase is due to your body having to make up some extra sleep, due to the poor quality. It wants to stay awake for 16 hours then sleep for 8, but ends up sleeping 9 or 10, and that just screws everything up.

Wake your ass up in the morning; if you're tired, too bad. Get up. When you're sleepy, you'll sleep at night.

You might also be able to get a guy with a broken foot to run if you chase him with a baseball bat, but no one would say that is because there's really nothing wrong with his foot. Cognitive behavioral therapy is bullshit. For those who aren't aware, it literally means "talk to the patient and figure out what they're doing wrong and tell them how to change it." So you keep suggesting shit until pure coincidence cures them (or merely makes them think they're cured) and take credit as obviously it was your advice that changed things, or you offer new advice every week until you're eventually forced to offer advice the patient just can't follow (like "get up in the morning anyway") at which point you can blame the therapy's failure on the patient's non-compliance. Like most of psychology, it's bullshit.

ADHD, though, is real. It just isn't what most doctor's think it is. There is one I saw on a television show who started testing kids with ADHD for sleep apnea, and cured quite a few of them of their ADHD with some oral surgery. Apparently he's the only person to think that poor sleep might result in kids who can't concentrate and who are hyperactive because being hyperactive is the only thing keeping them awake.

I actually think that most psychological problems are sleep disorders. Tired all the time, such that you can't improve your life or even enjoy it? That might make you depressed, right? ...and maybe, since your brain can't do sleep-things while you're asleep, it starts doing them while you're awake, and so you start having hallucinations. Then your sense of logic goes out the window, as it often does when people are asleep, and so everyone says you're delusional. I mean, just how many psychological conditions aren't known to be associated with sleep disturbances? Are there any?

...and then the drug of choice to treat ADHD is a stimulant. It's like we're just trying to keep the kids awake, to improve their concentration, and to make it so that they don't have to be so hyperactive in order to avoid falling asleep.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[MozeeToby]

What you're describing is not insomnia, it sounds much more like a circadian rhythm disorder. I'm not just being pedantic, it's important to understand the differences between the two because the treatments can be significantly different. For instance, it's generally not wise with circadian disorders to medicate to sleep, the sleep you get won't be restful because your body is pretty much convinced that 1AM is a good time to be wide awake.

A small dose of melatonin taken at the right time of day (some experimentation is necessary, it could be as early as first thing in the morning) helps some people get their natural melatonin production on the right track. Bright sunlight first thing in the morning can also be effective. Of course, for many there is no effective treatment and you just have to learn how to deal with it best you can.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[mr_mischief]

Not all ADHD folks are hyperactive. The "H" is common but not universal. Poor sleep can definitely cause a loss of ability to focus, though. It can also contribute to risk of stroke, heart attack, type 2 diabetes, and a lot of other problems. I wouldn't doubt that hyperactivity could be among those.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

Where did you say you got your MD again?

Re:The drugs are terrible

[bluefoxlucid]

The doctors suggested 60mg twice per day when I was 8 years old. Parents negotiated them down to 20 x 2.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[bluefoxlucid]

Phenotropil works for ADHD because of a weak stimulant effect. Side effects include insomnia, because it's a stimulant. Side effects also include enhanced memory and treatment of dementia, though, so there's that. Negative side effects are largely minimal to non-existent; and phenotropil shows no acute toxicity at some 20 times the normal dose (I find 20mg of Pheno works, even though most people are taking 100mg; 100mg is too high and builds tolerance. 400mg is common).

Methylphenedate and adderall are stronger stimulants at dosage levels which don't cause tolerance (higher doses of Methylphenedate and dex do cause tolerance; this is well-explored in ADHD literature, and the recommended control is lower dosing). They also have high chances of psychosis (6% after 3 months on Methylphenedate), severe insomnia, anxiety, paranoia, etc. It's also extremely toxic: try taking 20 doses at once, let me know how that goes for you after you come out of dialysis. This is not stuff you want to be amped up on; you want the doses low.. (Lithium is worse: the dosing window is so small it's hard to get pharmacological effect without going into toxicity.)

Don't whip out the biggest hammer you've got to start with unless you know the job's that big.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[bluefoxlucid]

I've read multiple studies claiming testicular atrophy. It only came to my attention when I noticed my nuts hurt whenever I took melatonin chronically; at the time, I thought the only side effect was tolerance, followed by insomnia.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[bluefoxlucid]

In America, our answer is drugs, in high doses, and then more drugs. We don't try anything; we look for single miracle-cures, and then dump them on people. Our doctors don't take any sort of in-depth approach to health; they just assess your symptoms, diagnose a disease, and grab a treatment off the shelf.

Think about this: our doctors put all old people on lovastatin to help control cholesterol. They don't assess their health, their diet, or any of that; they just hand them lovastatin, because cholesterol could be bad for your weakening heart as you get older. This isn't a recommended treatment at a certain age; it's something doctors started doing, because they are concerned about old peoples's hearts getting weaker, concerned about cholesterol straining a weakened heart, and know Lipitor lowers cholesterol.

You're in Sweden. When was the last time you met a woman who gave birth by cesarian? In America, we cut the baby out through the abdomen some 40% of the time.

Our doctors are nuts. If I wanted medication prescribed in this manner, I would petition the FDA to give me license to self-medicate and use Google.

Re:The drugs are terrible

[bluefoxlucid]

You often wake up to go to the bathroom, only to find once you're there that you really didn't need to go that badly.

Usually, I don't have to pee. I just wake up, annoyed, and go back to sleep. When I do have to pee, I've got enough to re-flush the toilet (flush it, then, while it's filling and there's water running into the bowl to raise the level to normal, piss like mad and the toilet flushes again).

Also, you sometimes have nightmares where you're running away from something, or doing anything that's physically exhausting, and then you wake up and breathe heavily for a while to catch your breath?

Only people who experience fear have nightmares. I don't. I only experience fear via debilitating nyctophobia--psychotic episodes triggered by specific conditions, notably, by darkness--and a large component of that is knowing the things are not real: I can't touch them, I can't fight them, they aren't real.

In dreams, I can kick the shit out of that stuff.

The monsters in my dreams are solid. They are real. They are there and I can touch them. Until I wake up, they are a part of my world. They do not frighten me, because they cannot hurt me.

I had nightmares when I was a kid. That didn't last, as I am made of steel: you can't break steel; when you strike it, it becomes stronger. I became stronger, and I wake up from those dreams feeling absolutely awesome; they are the best dreams.

The delayed sleep phase is due to your body having to make up some extra sleep, due to the poor quality.

No, a delayed phase isn't for exhaustion. A delayed phase is when your body doesn't WANT sleep until late, and doesn't WANT to wake up until late. You get 8 hours, but not 10pm-6am; you go to bed at 10pm, and you stare at the ceiling until 2am. Then you want to wake up at 10am. Even if you get to sleep at 10pm, your body just tries to sleep 12 hours and wake up at 10am anyway.

Even if I'm exhausted, I'll start to wake up as it becomes late. The period where most people start to shut down is where I become most active.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is bullshit. For those who aren't aware, it literally means "talk to the patient and figure out what they're doing wrong and tell them how to change it."

Being well-versed in statistics and having the most basic grasp of pharmapsychology, I must disagree. For primary insomnia (my case), CBT is superior to any known method. CBT is also effective for insomnia secondary to breast cancer; studies are ongoing for insomnia secondary to dementia, for example alzheimers or bipolar disorder. BPD should be especially interesting: better sleep should, in theory, stabilize BPD.

Claiming what you're looking at is bullshit because it doesn't fit your world-view is pseudoscience. It's like claiming going down to the river, rubbing mud on your wounds, and praying to the river god helps your wounds heal more quickly and gains you blessing of the water deity for the hunt. In psychological treatment, this is even more true: you're dealing with behavioral issues, and just convincing someone they're tired or not suffering from job-related stress is an effective way to make these things true.

I mean, just how many psychological conditions aren't known to be associated with sleep disturbances? Are there any?

Very few. Fucking up your brain is a good way to cause sleep disturbances. For example: drink 15 cups of strong java before bedtime; you will have sleep disturbances from an induced arousal state. Manic disorder (the hot side of bipolar disorder) is effectively that. Depression actually makes most people sleep more.

Do you think?

Re:The drugs are terrible

[bluefoxlucid]

Yeah I'm convinced I have DSPD; however, recently it's become full-blown insomnia. I can't sleep early, and then I can't sleep in. I am now trained to awaken at 6am, even if my brain decides it doesn't want to sleep until 2am. Sleep is often restless.

When I went from a good 8 hours if I can have it between 2am-10am to not sleeping past 6am and still not being able to sleep early, it became full insomnia. Anecdotal evidence suggests chronic morning shift work is abusive to patients with DSPD, and it is medically harmful to require a regular schedule beginning work early in the morning.

I've been self-medicating with flotation-REST lately.

Read Summary Wrong

[Jason Levine]

I read the summary wrong at first and thought that it meant they "fixed" ADHD by participants taking meth. If that's the cure, I think I'd stick with being uncured.

I'm not sure of the chemical makeup of the compound they are talking about versus the illegal drug. (Chemistry was one science class I always stunk at.) They might be somewhat-related with the name similarity. Perhaps someone can explain the difference?

does the tail wag the dog?

[Anonymous Coward]

if we fix involuntary eye movements, we fix ADHD?

fuck beta

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck beta

involuntary eye movement?

[Anonymous Coward]

They ares were made to involuntary move in the form of blinking.

Something smells of bullshit here

Human entropy

[Gothmolly]

Since we're largely shielded from the negative effects of genetic entropy, where will the western world be in 50 years?

Re:Human entropy

[iggymanz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

Pfft

[ThatsNotPudding]

This is already been done: http://bladerunner.wikia.com/wiki/Voight-Kampff_machine

Re:Pfft

[iggymanz]

I appreciate how movie instructs in the proper etiquette should the line of questioning become too uncomfortable or the questioned feel the inquisitor is learning of negative traits best left undisclosed: "My mother? Let me tell you about my mother!" *BLAM* *BLAM*

what a crock of shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Fat fuck lazy ass parents can't stand their kids being kids. You mean kids are loud, needy, annoying, and need taught life's simplest nuances regarding polite behavior? You mean being a parent means requiring infinite patience and using every opportunity to teach and guide and mold? No thanks I think I'll just drug them into zombified submission. Ooh that couch looks comfortable.

Re:what a crock of shit

[Lazere]

You know typical ADHD drugs would actually make neurotypical children worse, right? ADHD drugs tend to be stimulants, care to guess what that would do to normal children? Give a five year old some coffee and find out. It's a far cry from "drug them into zimbified submission."

Re:what a crock of shit

[UpnAtom]

The theory is that children don't develop the relevant dopamine circuits until later, and boys much later than girls.

Coffee works on adenosine primarily.

[citation needed]

[seebs]

I'd be interested in the basis for the claim about misdiagnosis being "common". I have known a number of people with ADHD who were misdiagnosed with something else. I don't think I've ever met anyone who got a misdiagnosis of not having ADHD.

The quality of the anti-ADHD-diagnosis rants can be pretty much summed up by the fact that people are claiming that a stimulant drug which makes people twitchy is going to "drug people into zombified submission". It really is that blatantly stupid; there is nothing remotely like "zombified submission" on the table.

Re:[citation needed]

[jittles]

I'd be interested in the basis for the claim about misdiagnosis being "common". I have known a number of people with ADHD who were misdiagnosed with something else. I don't think I've ever met anyone who got a misdiagnosis of not having ADHD.

The quality of the anti-ADHD-diagnosis rants can be pretty much summed up by the fact that people are claiming that a stimulant drug which makes people twitchy is going to "drug people into zombified submission". It really is that blatantly stupid; there is nothing remotely like "zombified submission" on the table.

It's kids being diagnosed with ADHD when the correct diagnosis is really poor parenting.

Re:[citation needed]

[seebs]

Yeah, I know what the allegation is. Where's the evidence? Where's the clinical studies?

People love to assert that someone with a cognitive disability isn't really disabled, just "lazy". But that people enjoy asserting it doesn't make it true.

Re:[citation needed]

[Charliemopps]

It's kids being diagnosed with ADHD when the correct diagnosis is really poor parenting.

You're not a parent are you? I'd have a hard time calling anyone that didn't beat their kid a bad parent. That'd be like calling someone that fell off a bridge a bad sky diver. You do what you can, there's no way to do it right, and they landing's going to hurt no mater what you do.

Re:[citation needed]

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I know what the allegation is. Where's the evidence? Where's the clinical studies?

According to most leading ADHD researchers, the actual prevalence of the disease is somewhere between 3% and 7%. (E.g. Russell Barkley).

According to the CDC, the frequency of diagnosis in the US is 11%.

That disparity alone is very good evidence that a large proportion (somewhere between 30% and 70%) of diagnoses of ADHD are incorrect.

Re:[citation needed]

[jittles]

I'm not calling the kids lazy, I'm calling the parents lazy. There's a difference.

Re:[citation needed]

[jittles]

It's kids being diagnosed with ADHD when the correct diagnosis is really poor parenting.

You're not a parent are you? I'd have a hard time calling anyone that didn't beat their kid a bad parent. That'd be like calling someone that fell off a bridge a bad sky diver. You do what you can, there's no way to do it right, and they landing's going to hurt no mater what you do.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to abuse a child. Beating a child is not the only way to abuse it. There is mental abuse, neglect (which is another form of mental abuse), etc. I dated a high school ESE teacher for years and I can tell you right now that most of the parents though their precious little snowflake could do not wrong, even when the kids were being hauled off to jail for possession with intent to sell, burglary, rape, and a myriad of other crimes. Others had parents that couldn't be bothered to show up to meetings, and tried to throw money at the child's problems. I also helped raise a niece with autism and ADHD. It was only for a few years, but it was very stressful and I thought it would be the death of me.

Re:[citation needed]

[seebs]

There is, but it doesn't change anything, because you're still providing absolutely no evidence to support the claim. And it's still a good example of blaming people being "lazy" for a thing without any evidence. Just-world fallacy; insisting that all the problems are caused by people behaving badly, who therefore somehow deserve it.

Re:[citation needed]

[jittles]

Ok here's a nice little chart from the CDCthat shows that not only is ADHD diagnosis on the rise, but its also more common in some states than others. Unless there is some environmental factor (other than poor parenting) to consider, I would say that culture and poor parenting is a strong indication of an ADHD diagnosis. In fact, if you look at the states with some of the highest diagnoses, you'll see that they're southern and midwestern states. I grew up in the West and live in the South now and I definitely believe that the parenting here in the south is sub par.

Of course, that is obviously speculation on my part, but how do you explain such differences in ADHD in the country?

Lack of impulse control

[Andtalath]

This shouldn't really be news.

One of the major ADHD tests is if you can control impulses in various situations.
Impulse control is way, way harder, bordering on impossible for people with strong ADHD.

I still remember my test for instance.

I was supposed to press for every symbol that came up on the screen, except for X and Y.
I couldn't help pressing for X as well.
I literally said the equivalent of "fuck" each time, which made my psychiatrist laugh.

This would be something similar.

Re:Lack of impulse control

[Anonymous Coward]

If the symbols pop up quickly, and you're trying to do it fast, I can see anyone pressing X accidentally (fingers working faster than the brain).

This doesn't sound like something atypical at all!

Re:Lack of impulse control

[Andtalath]

Indeed, it's normal to get some amount of errors.

I got 100%.

That is highly abnormal.

Stop and think....

[Anonymous Coward]

The premise that over-diagnosis is a systemic problem is common, and has been propagated by the media, with very little actual scientific proof behind it.

The national average is that 7.8% of children are diagnosed with ADHD and somewhere around half (depending on where you live) get prescribed medication. So the idea that we are diagnosing a whole generation of kids as having ADHD is ridiculous. The idea that we have a culture of medicating our kids unnecessarily is also ridiculous. The statistics simply don't bear this out. The CDC did a study that has been dramatically misinterpreted to create this perception.

Here is the big article that most people reference when they say that there is a plague of over-diagnosing ADHD.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/01/health/more-diagnoses-of-hyperactivity-causing-concern.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

First, they only reference ADHD's increase in the CDC study, when it wasn't the only one, nor was it the largest disorder having an increase in diagnosis. It was a 3% increase.

Second, there are three corrections, only mentioned at the very bottom that change facts stated in the study. That should tell you something right there.

Third, and increase is an increase, but they fill in the blanks as to the cause of the increase. My favorite is the change in the definition of ADHD, some media and researchers pose that the changing definition of ADHD has weakened its diagnostic criteria so it is going to be more common. But the DMS IV, the standard psych diagnostic manual in the U.S. hasn't had a change for ADHD in 20 years and the DSM V wasn't out yet, or not long enough to have an effect.

Yes, ADHD diagnosis have increased, and yes so has the rate of medication being prescribed. But at the same rate, on average (some less, some more) than other childhood disorders. Additionally, the study merely referenced the increase in the number of diagnosis and prescription, not the amount of misdiagnosis or anything like that. The only studies that I know of that did that were severely flawed. One did a survey where they told the sample of Psychiatrists to make a diagnosis of a selection of cases, some which did not show all of the symptoms for ADHD and some did. But they told them to make a diagnosis, already biasing those participating towards making some diagnosis rather than none at all. The other was a world wide study that compared the DSM IV diagnostic guide to the cases that were diagnosed, the problem is much of the world doesn't use the DSM IV but a different resource entirely. So they were judging those diagnosing using and apples and oranges measuring stick.

I of course, am not saying it never happens, clearly misdiagnosis does happen. And it may be more common with ADHD than with some other disorders. That could be due to big pharma wanting to schill pills, or it could be due to the very visible and noticeable nature of ADHD and it's commonality, meaning just the shear numbers increase the chances. It could be that ADHD has some similarities to behavior that is not ideal but not to the level of a disorder. It could be it is no worse than other cases of misdiagnosis. And to my mind, more likely, if it is happening more than other disorders, is because we need better diagnostics, which is what this research is about. No one is going to say that one test like this is the only thing needed to make such a diagnostic, not really. That is headline grabbing garbage that will never make it into a real serious clinical environment. No diagnostic manual is going to recommend a diagnosis based on one symptom or type of behavior, period.

bluefoxlucid makes some good anecdotal points, but they are anecdotal, meaning they are one specific case, specific to that person. You cannot extrapolate anything out of it to the general populace. They had bad reactions to medicine, which unfortunately happens. I can't be used to make any judgements about the whole, however. Nor can it give us any insight into the usefulness of

Re:Stop and think....

[gurps_npc]

Maybe you are right. But you don't answer the real issues.

Issue #1. I (and other people over 40) do not see a radical shift in adult behavior. That means either a) It is what used to be called 'a phase that the kid will grow out of', or b) the 'disease' is basically nothing new or that bad - just slightly bad behavior that we not as bad put a new label on it or c) It is over diagnosed despite what you think.

Issue #2. Ritalin and the other drugs that affect ? They only work on some of the kids diagnosed. As in there are really two disease (just like cancer is multiple disease). One of those diseases - the one the drugs work on is confirmed as real (by the fact that the drugs work on it.) The other 'disease' is as likely to exist in the mind of the adults, as in the kids. That is, there is no evidence at all that the second disease is real and you can't use the existence of the first disease to prove the second disease.

These two issues are the real problem your argument, not the reporting done by a newspaper.

Re:Stop and think....

[Anonymous Coward]

The national average is that 7.8% of children are diagnosed with ADHD and somewhere around half (depending on where you live) get prescribed medication

You're quoting the figures from 2003. The latest available figures (2011) are that 11.0% of children are diagnosed. Researchers still believe that the upper limit for actual prevalence is 7%, with the correct figure probably somewhere lower (around the 5% mark is considered most likely).

In America, less than 1 in 10 kids have been diagnosed with ADHD, and anywhere from 40-68% of those diagnosed are medicated.

The updated figures for 2011 are 1 in 9, and 82.5% of them are medicated. In Louisiana, 10.4% of *all children* are medicated for ADHD.

Re:Stop and think....

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not claiming that you're wrong about diagnosis rates, but would you care to explain why graphs like this imply that parenting or the heath care system of some localities is in some way tied to the diagnosis rate?

Stop and think....

[funkyboss007]

This was my post, sorry, didn't realize I didn't have my account. I am no coward lol!

Diagnosed

[Charliemopps]

I've got ADHD for real. My doctor used to joke that I was the only kid he knew of that definitively had it, the rest he was just pretty sure about. At the time they were heavily medicating children for it... much worse than they do now and my parents refused to have me walking around like a zombie. Like it or not that was probably the most instrumental decision my parents made in my upbringing. Without the medication, I was left to cope with the symptoms on my own. If given several tasks to complete, I'd spend hours bouncing from one to the other and never really start any of them. Eventually I learned to deal with it on my own but never really knew how until I got to talk about it with a few shrinks.

What I did was learn a type of "Hyper focus" they described as common amongst the afflicted. I would drive all other thoughts from my mind, almost like a Buddhist, and then focus exclusively on my task. If I allowed other topics into my mind, I'd wander and lose track of what I was doing, so I instead learned not to let myself think about anything else. This skill has it's upsides I was told. I was able to grasp larger, more complex tasks because my mind was not preocupide with other things. It also had it's downside. I'd be so focused on the task at hand that if someone interupetted me I'd fly into a rage:
Me:WHAT?!?!
Wife: Dinners ready. Is programming the thermostat really that frustrating?
Me: um... sorry? :-)

I'm glad to see they may have a definitive test, and it seems superior drugs. I don't want to say I wish I had them... I wouldn't be me without ADHD, but I welcome any tools that help parents be more informed. I wouldn't give up being abnormal for the world, but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy either.

Re:Diagnosed

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this normal, though?

Doesn't everyone have a wandering mind that they have to 'focus' in order to concentrate on the boring shit? This takes effort, of course. And isn't it easy to block out stimuli when you're engrossed in something interesting? Aren't interruptions annoying to everyone?!

This doesn't sound at all atypical.

Re:Diagnosed

[danlip]

Getting enraged when interrupted probably isn't normal. Although I do the hyperfocus thing and it is pretty annoying to get interrupted. My wife knows not to call me at work. But I don't think I'm ADHD.

Re:Diagnosed

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. I've learned how to do the hyperfocus, and hyper dis-focus trick myself. I've found it very useful for forcing myself to ignore intrusive thoughts and impulses. I went off meds (time-release methylphenidate) for a couple of weeks a while back, and the frequency and magnitude of intrusive thoughts and impulses off meds were too much for me to handle.

I've been taking meds for ADD-I/D for over ten years now, and going off meds every now and then just to remind myself who my Mr. Hyde is. I'm pretty much convinced I'm a terrible person off meds. I say and do a lot of things that hurt people. I'm always sorry for it, but I can't see it coming. It's always after the fact, I realize what I've done, and write up my apologies, and make my phone calls, and try to mend relationships. I'm truly out of control, like a feral child.

So while I'm glad you've learned how to cope without meds, for some people, stimulant medications are the best thing that happened to them. Without them, I can't think before I act, with them, I'm at the helm of the ship, not my hindbrain.

Re:Diagnosed

[Anonymous Coward]

I can get really annoyed when people interrupt me at something that requires focus and keeping a lot in short term memory, like programming or math. It takes me 10 minutes or more to get back to where I was, and sometimes I lose track completely. So I think it's normal, or at least for introverts it's normal.

RNM

[Anonymous Coward]

Also associated with a US human experimentation program in remote manipulation of neurons. Its an AI hacking the eye, so the genetic algorithm causes the muscle to move randomly.

Re:Has all research moved to Tel Aviv??

[Anonymous Coward]

The bastards are those who boycott Israel and support Palestians. Without all the support from those bastards, Palestinians would agree to stop terror and form a country on the territories they already have. With all the support from damn bastards, they feel that if they wait enough, Israel will be destroyed and they'll get all of its territories, no need to compromise at all.
Boycott Israel, support never-ending war!

Pruitt Taylor Vince

[mattack2]

Wait, so Pruitt Taylor Vince has ADHD?

(no, just kidding, from imdb: "Has nystagmus, a condition which causes a person's eyes to move involuntarily." But he was who I thought about when reading the summary.)

Rubber stamp scripts

[TapeCutter]

Yes, there are plenty of quack GP's who hand out these drugs like candy, However I don't agree with your first post that the stereotypical detached parent and video games are to blame for behavioural quirks. My granddaughter has mild autism, her religious grandmother on the other side doesn't "believe" in psychology and thinks she is just being "naughty" or "silly". She is not on drugs but has occupational therapy to help with her language skills, which the grandmother has deemed a "waste of time and money". Thing is the grandmother never babysits because she can't stop a 5yo fiddling with her china ornaments, I'm an old man and have no problem babysitting her and her two younger sisters. The reason why I can do this and the grandmother can't is that I listen to my daughter and use some of the psychological "tricks" she has learned from the therapist, very simple stuff such as - if you can't get her attention simply touch her on the arm while saying her name.

A large part of her therapy is in the form of video games that attempt to teach her about metaphors and other language quirks most of us never even notice, this drives the grandmother in to further confused rants. I have to say it's very satisfying to see my daughter calmly destroy her hysterical arguments with just a hint of sarcasm (although she gets that talent from her mum). The good news is that most of the specialist she has seen agree that a couple of years of occupational therapy at this age will allow her to overcome her difficulty with language. As far as her other cognitive skills are concerned she is in the top 10th percentile for all of them, raising her language skills out of the bottom 10th percentile will help her communicate that intelligence and creativity to others.

Having said that I know of at least 5 adults whose lives have been destroyed by doctors who have prescribed Zoloft to regular but moderate drinkers, one was a mentally stable 60yr old man who ended up in jail for 2yrs because he crashed his car into a row of rubbish bins and decided it was a good idea to blame his wife and physically attack the cops who turned up to investigate the ruckus. My ex wife also became an obnoxious lying hypocrite while on these pills, the changes don't happen overnight so I didn't connect it with the pills until I saw the same thing happening in other friends and relatives over the next decade or so. The change in personality is gradual, after the divorce she spent 2yrs fighting suicidal impulses before throwing the Zoloft away. Like the 60yo man she is back to her normal personality now, she's still the proverbial "swan" (peddling like crazy below the surface) and still suffers from the anxiety disorder her violent and insetuous father bestowed apon her as a child. She now says her panic attacks are preferable to no stress at all because without stress you have no physical signal to tell you which way your moral compass is pointing, which rapidly turns into having no family, no home, and no hope.

This is not to say that Zoloft doesn't work when administered correctly, in fact I have seen it work "as advertised" in several people. However it seems to me that far too many GP's (in Australia) do not have the faintest clue how to administer such drugs. They do not understand the nature and purpose of stress any better than the patient they are treating, they see someone suffering panic attacks, they don't try and figure out why, they just give them a pill, they fail to warn about serious psychological side-effects, they fail to involve family members in monitoring the patients personality and are totally oblivious to the developing sociopathic symptoms of incorrect use when the patient returns for another rubber stamp script.

The "life lesson" in this story is that if you have head problems go to a proper head doctor, ie a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist, taking head pills from a GP who doesn't first refer you to such a specialist will only bring misery and despair to you and your family.

Re: Rubber stamp scripts

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an old man who touches kids and uses psychological tricks on them? PERVERT!

Re: Rubber stamp scripts

[Bismuthprince]

This message is brought to you by the 24hr news cycle.

The pseudo science of ADHD and other diagnoses

[lippydude]

Psychiatric Diagnosis such as ADHD are pseudo-science thought up by the pharmaceutical industry to sell more drugs.

"The Hazards of Psychiatric Diagnosis"

Blackcurrant juice?

[TapeCutter]

A friend of mine once took his kid to the doctor with "measles" only to be told they were mosquito bites, way back in 1980 my wife and I took our first born to casualty because he was "throwing up blood", felt relived but a tad foolish when the doctor asked; did you give him blackcurrant juice? Now for the sake of argument, let's say a significant portion of cases are "socially founded in the parent", who the fuck is supplying the parent with ritalin on the basis of the parent's ammature diagnosis?

Concerned parents, the one's who take a keen interest in their child's well being, go to GP's for help when something seems wrong, but when it comes to behavioural problems in either adults or children (Australian) GP's are far too often more interested in signing a script than signing a referral for a proper diagnosis.

Re:Blackcurrant juice?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now for the sake of argument, let's say a significant portion of cases are "socially founded in the parent", who the fuck is supplying the parent with ritalin on the basis of the parent's ammature diagnosis?

As an American that question seems silly. First, the parents - unless doctors - can't prescribe and aren't strongly motivated to spend time or money on the non-issue.

The allegations are that schools not only get more money per ADHD student (diagnosed) they are also pushing for higher test scores (likely without concern for why test scores matter and the known limitations, pitfalls of over-reliance, etc). Kindergartners are losing playtime, (naptime?), blocktime, etc, and being pushed to read instead of simply learning the alphabet. That's not a bad thing unless it means your are pressing the child too hard in a direction they're not ready for. More so, the pressing is not likely productive or for some great goal (Olympic Gold!) but rather a slight improvement in the school's stats. Maybe there is a gold star in it for the child or "D- you cost me my raise, asshole".

http://www.webmd.com/parenting...
http://www.vanguardnews.com/20...

Terrible research; irresponsible reporting

[kevinking.psyd]

So I RTFA'd to discover that their sample size was 22 diagnosed w/ ADHD and a control group of 22 w/o ADHD. These numbers are FAR too small for the certainty of claims they are making. As any statistician worth their salt can confirm, It is more likely that their findings are due to chance. Considerations like researcher degrees of freedom puts this research in further doubt. Replication with much larger samples needs to be conducted before any actions are taken based on this eye-movement theory. The bold claims they make based on this evidence are irresponsible.

Re:Has all research moved to Tel Aviv??

[Anonymous Coward]

We must boycott Israel to rout out the European/Russian Zionists. Only then can there be peace.

It won't narrow the diagnostic criteria

[UpnAtom]

Because then the pharmaceutical industry won't sell as many drugs.

So, skillful observation of behaviour is

[ToddInSF]

more accurate than simply dumping the drug Du jour into people ?

There are researchers that have observed eye movement information since the 60's; the fact that the work of people like Silvan S. Tomkins is ignored and instead we use drugs to treat and diagnoses to support a massive and ineffective drug economy is what's (very old) news.

People don't need to be constantly drugged, they need social interaction that facilitates their own innate abilities to adapt and heal.

ADHD is a fraud

[beastofburdon]

ADHD is simply a fraud, they man who made it up admitted it himself. The symptoms associated with it are nothing more than the predictable outcome of forcing children into incompatible situations.

Children are energetic and playful by nature, but we expect them to sit in a classroom and silently absorb information from teachers for several hours at a time. This isn't to say that they do not want to learn. There is a reason that they ask questions all the time.

Adults, on the other hand, easily tire of children asking questions about the world and playing games. They then expect the children to act like the adults who have lost their love of play and no longer care about learning about the world around them. When the children fail to pretend to be lifeless adults they then give them a label and force drugs down their throats, much to the delight of the drug industry.

Made up disorder!

[Anonymous Coward]

Made up disorder like affluenza. It is a personality that is diagnostic yet normal when you find a significant portion of the population with it. On top of that, a UCSF studies have shown that meds only work for a very short time, but the medical community will still medicate kids for years. Somethings just don't add up with this whole thing.