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Judge Allows L.A. Cops To Keep License Plate Reader Data Secret
An anonymous reader writes:
A Los Angeles Superior Court judge has ruled that the Los Angeles Police Department is not required to hand over a week's worth of license plate reader data to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). He cited the potential of compromising criminal investigations and giving (un-charged) criminals the ability to determine whether or not they were being targeted by law enforcement (PDF). The ACLU and the EFF sought the data under the California Public Records Act, but the judge invoked Section 6254(f), "which protects investigatory files." ACLU attorney Peter Bibring notes, "New surveillance techniques may function better if people don't know about them, but that kind of secrecy is inconsistent with democratic policing."
Information about the collection techniques (what gets captured, how long are they held, when and how are they destroyed, etc.) is fine. The actual videos themselves may contain enough information to track vehicles over a period of time. We don't really like it when cops do it, why should we let everyone else have this data?
I don't necessarily like knowing cops have this information but so long as there's rules over the collection (see above) I'm okay with this. If the EFF and ACLU (whom I normally support) wants the actual data, they can get their own OCR license plate cameras and drive around.
Is that police department going to find a new revenue source by selling license plate and location data to somebody else who will correlate and sell location likelihood information to businesses/marketing companies?
Is that police department allowed to tag me in their system even though I wasn't under investigation, but passed their camera? Then, do they get to keep that info forever? What happens if I'm accidentally put on the no-fly list, I mean watch list, I mean...
These guys can't be trusted to type my license plate correctly, now they get permanent location, tracking and correlation? No.
I'm no Luddite, but this stuff and its related capabilities makes me want to go live in the woods. I'm sick of this.
My mom says I'm cool.
To wonder why in LA.
Do you think the big secret could the large number of plates scanned and the number of times a plate is scanned each day ?
Pick out a number of average citizens and see how complete of a days travels were captured ?
See if you can find your own plate and see if you went anywhere than was NOT captured on a scan.
Big Brother is watching you. Have a nice day ?
LA illegally pays judges additional monies beyond their salary, so why is it a surprise that the judges consistently rule in favor of the LA government?
A sufficient time delay before the information becomes public would solve most or all of the problem with compromising investigations. What's the real reason?
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
This means you. Holy shit, Americans really used to be smarter than this. Now, they seem to make it a point of rubbing it in your face. Because you like it that way.
This is the primary problem with "sweep" methods of collecting data.
There MIGHT be something in the "sweep" that MAY impact a current investigation. Therefore, ALL of the "sweep" must be hidden from the public.
Bullshit. There shouldn't be any difficulty in removing the items relevant to a current investigation. The should already be tagged as such. Then release the rest.
This is a case of "collect EVERYTHING and keep it FOREVER" so that anyone can be backtracked if the cops or politicians decide to do so. Where do you go? When? Why? What do you do there?
Now imagine a cop tracking your daughter to find out where she lives and where she works and which college she goes to and when she leaves for classes.
I read a lot of discussion comments vilifying Democrat or Republican presidents, representatives and senators. People are slowly realizing that both parties are equally bad. I take this as given, and anticipated by the Founding Fathers.
The antidote is supposed to be the judiciary, from the bottom all the way up to the Supreme Court. However, the scales are now falling from my eyes. I a sadly conclude that judges are partisan, stupid, have not respect for the Constitution and the long-term consequences of their decisions. They are completely beholden to the executive and legislative branches and have abdicated their responsibilities. They have lost my respect.
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
Is there open source software that is fairly reliable at plate decoding? I live on a fairly busy street and wonder about putting up a simple site that lists "this plate passed at this time going north/south."
If your evidence collection cannot stand up to public review, it should not stand up to a court's. That is, if you choose to keep these things secret and away from people that can prove your methods may be flawed, then what it collects it should be inadmissible in court as evidence.
There is absolutely no legitimate reason for this to be a secret.
If we use machines to auto track every plate, all the time, then publishing that information would not warn a criminal that they were being watched at all. After all we are all being watched. I see more of an issue with people who live a lie and can't explain to a spouse why they park in certain places over and over again. Really it is only truth that people are worried about. Can people exist without their lies and cheating? Do honest people fear observation?
If it's just data and your average street cop has access to it, it's hackable. It's only a matter of time.
The ACLU fought the wrong fight on this one. The public should absolutely not have access to *everyone's* plate reader data, that would enable serious privacy abuses and criminal acts ("My ex-wife got a restraining order and hid from me, I'll find her car and then I'll show that bitch...") , and should not have access to lists of people the cops especially want to find (the "hot lists" referred to in the article.)
But people should be able to use plate reader data for their own vehicles specifically to defend themselves in court. ("I couldn't have killed the guy, the cops saw my car across town five minutes later." And yes, there are obvious holes in that defense, but it's admissible and useful.)
"its value as an investigative tool would be severely compromised."
I'd be interested to see how these same police departments would respond if identical ALPRs were placed near police stations, government buildings & affluent neighborhoods by private individuals. I imagine it ending quite quickly in threats, arrests & even possibly injuries. Its funny how a surveillance tool is so great until the general public turns it on those in authority (tape recorders, video cameras, cell phone cameras, drones), then it miraculously needs "common sense" restrictions that those in authority are almost always exempt from.
I would have some criminals get away than the foundation of freedom compromised. Silly that the judges do not get it, something that they are hired to protect.
That Judge is part of the problem with our dwindling freedoms here in America. He could have ordered them to release a copy of the data without their apparent investigations being revealed. This makes me think that the police are up to no good with these trackers, the judge knows it, therefore there is a problem. Since it is the LAPD, there is something underhanded in whatever they are involved in, the LAPD has time and time again been shown to be very corrupt. Beware if LA County starts needing a data-center along the lines of a Google facility LA residents
This. By stating that none of the bulk data can be disclosed because of "potential charges," that's a little different than redacting "ongoing investigations" against specific individuals. The latter is a pretty reasonable limitation on the information disclosed from a FOIA request, but the former is a pretty literal form of treason: an appointed or elected official is seeking to subvert the US Constitution's prohibitions on warrant-less searches, and also to bypass constitutional checks and balances by essentially turning judgements into decrees removing rights from every citizen in perpetuity. Add the notion that the topic is secrecy of scope as well as content, and that's pretty much a literal definition of "conspiracy" to violate* the constitution.
*Perhaps "provide a legal contortion that exempts all citizens from certain constitutional protections in a manner that clearly and purposefully violates the intent of the law."
I think not...(*poof*)
Just so this is perfectly clear - I am an 'un-charged criminal', and so are you. What this is proposing is that the basis of innocent until proven guilty, the freedom from undue search and or seizure, which I am quite sure would have included having armed men follow one around observing them at all times, are all guarantees that we have but are not demanding from our own constitution.
What threat is so great that we accept these conditions? What threat is greater than tyranny and secrecy?
"No good deed goes unpunished"
James looked up after the annoyingly unnecessary banging of the door from his visitor. The Detective was quite brazen; which made it all the less believable he was actually the one obtaining the payment for these side jobs. But, James knew direct questioning would have been suicide and damaged his chances of this fragile relationship continuing. He had put too much effort, and risk, into the "project" already, so additional risk was wise to avoid.
James hushed him before he was able to bellow whatever smartass greeting he dialed up today. There were about fourteen.
"It will print out in about 8 seconds.", he blurted out almost as quick as he whipped around to his keyboard and ran the program.
TrackerQueryParse
Input Parameters Completed
Running Final Query:
SELECT c.Name, c.Sex, c.Age, c.Ht, c.Wt, c.Address, w.Work, co.Address, co.ClassStartTime
FROM Citizen c
LEFT OUTER JOIN Work w ON c.Id = w.CitizenId
LEFT OUTER JOIN College co ON c.Id = co.CitizenId
WHERE FindParentProperty(c.Id, 'Hangouts.Slashdot.Id') = 'khasim'
The Detective looked pleased. James ran a second instance of the program.
TrackerQueryParse
Input Parameters Completed
Running Final Query:
SELECT c.Name, c.Sex, c.Age, c.Ht, c.Wt, c.Address, w.Work
FROM Citizen c
LEFT OUTER JOIN Work w ON c.Id = w.CitizenId
WHERE c.Address = '10114 Center St'
"And there is your assignment." James was as matter-of-fact as possible, but still fully succeeded in pissing off the Detective.
He grabbed the sheet, looked at James, and the typically boisterous Detective muttered his only word of the conversation.
"Fine."
The sky is the limit on what would be created with an open source backend DB. I'd put a cam in the yard and in my car. Sounds amusing.
I'll avoid visiting.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes