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The Guardian Reveals That Whisper App Tracks "Anonymous" Users

New submitter qqod writes this story at The Guardian that raises privacy concerns over the Whisper app. "The company behind Whisper, the social media app that promises users anonymity and claims to be the “the safest place on the internet”, is tracking the location of its users, including some who have specifically asked not to be followed. The practice of monitoring the whereabouts of Whisper users – including those who have expressly opted out of geolocation services – will alarm users, who are encouraged to disclose intimate details about their private and professional lives. Whisper is also sharing information with the US Department of Defense gleaned from smartphones it knows are used from military bases, and developing a version of its app to conform with Chinese censorship laws."

180 comments

  1. Well by DaMattster · · Score: 4, Informative

    Looks like I WILL NOT be trying this app at all. I was a bit curious.

    1. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is almost not certainly the app you have been curious about. The company called Whisper Systems was started by Moxie Marlinspike, a highly respected cypherphunk. Their app is called redphone. The "whisper" app, though, is made by a company called Whisper, which has close DoD ties and all sorts of red flags.

      The similarity in names is no coincidence. I think this is actually a deliberate attempt to spread distrust about phone crypto apps.

    2. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you meant "cypherpunk" rather than "cypherphunk". Just helping you out for the future. You're welcome!

    3. Re:Well by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      why don't whisper systems sue for the use of their company name then? should. it's in the same industrial/product space so shouldn't be a problem.

      it's not like I can make a chat app called MicroSoft for people with small soft penises and not get sued..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    4. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cypherphunk (n): That lightly roasted, slightly salty, often suspiciously fishy aroma emanating from your nearest hacker after a 24 hour hackathon.

    5. Re: Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The app is called Signal - Private Messenger in the Apple App Store. The android version is RedPhone. Just in case anyone is interested. It is a neat little end to end encryption app however I haven't checked the source code so I can't vouch for it.

    6. Re:Well by Cenan · · Score: 1

      Multiple hits for a TM search on "Whisper Systems", none of which turn up Moxie Marlinspike. Apparently it's both a renovation company in Seattle, a radio rental service (WTF?), a financial transaction system and many, many more dead ones.

      tmsearch.uspto.gov

      --
      ... whatever ...
    7. Re:Well by g4sy · · Score: 1

      Thank you.

      --
      somewhere, on a Big Red Sign:
      if(color==blue){speed--;}
    8. Re: Well by CPUmonster · · Score: 1

      No problem and thank you! After 10+ years of reading Slashdot I finally decided to make an account. Just so I could say you are welcome and not as an AC. So kudos to you, friend!

    9. Re:Well by alphatel · · Score: 1

      This is almost not certainly the app you have been curious about. The company called Whisper Systems was started by Moxie Marlinspike, a highly respected cypherphunk. Their app is called redphone. The "whisper" app, though, is made by a company called Whisper, which has close DoD ties and all sorts of red flags.

      The similarity in names is no coincidence. I think this is actually a deliberate attempt to spread distrust about phone crypto apps.

      Perhaps you've read into it too much. Storing everyone's data is certainly a truth of the app, and whisper already says they will hand over data when requested.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisper_(app)

      --
      When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
    10. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What the fuck are people doing using non-free software that claims to protect their privacy? If you can't even see the source, what do you expect?

    11. Re:Well by gnasher719 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What the fuck are people doing using non-free software that claims to protect their privacy? If you can't even see the source, what do you expect?

      Seeing the source doesn't help when (a) you are not a software developer, (b) you are a software developer with a job who doesn't have unlimited time to look at source code, (c) you are a software developer with lots of spare time but the source code that you are shown isn't the source code used.

      And open source gives the bad guys an easy way to create hacked versions of secure software that aren't secure. Someone stealing your secrets is unlikely to be impressed by GPL and copyright.

    12. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      (Posting AC as I've been moderating posts in this discussion)

      Check out the Open WhisperSystems Project. WhisperSystems, the company, was acquired by Twitter a few years back, but most of the tools now exist as open source projects. Last I heard they were good, but I haven't been following them closely.

    13. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seeing the source doesn't help when (a) you are not a software developer, (b) you are a software developer with a job who doesn't have unlimited time to look at source code, (c) you are a software developer with lots of spare time but the source code that you are shown isn't the source code used.

      The point is that, with free software, you have the *ability* to see the source, to hire others to audit the code, to modify the code, to hire others to modify the code, and to share any changes you make. How could any of that possibly be useless? Even just being able to *see* the source code is a step up from proprietary software. There are far more prying eyes.

      The benefits of free software cannot be denied. This sort of tracking is far less commonplace.

      And open source gives the bad guys an easy way to create hacked versions of secure software that aren't secure.

      Doesn't help them much; just pay attention to the source you're getting it from. You might be able to fool some people, but not enough.

    14. Re:Well by weilawei · · Score: 1

      It most certainly does help you. It gives you a better chance that someone who IS a software developer will discover the flaws in it and publish something to one of the security lists, which can eventually make its way to a media outlet like Slashdot. Also, it's much harder to hide a flaw like that for indefinite period of time (not that counter-examples don't exist, just that they're not nearly so pervasive) in a widely used open source product than a widely used closed source product.

      Now shove off, shill.

    15. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, there are obviously ways to check if the source code shown is the source code used. It's not just all about you being able to look at source code, but many people can.

      You can't do any of this with proprietary software.

    16. Re:Well by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Looks like I WILL NOT be trying this app at all. I was a bit curious.

      The unfolding of privacy around most of the popular social media apps (that ironically promise it) should have killed your curiosity long ago.

      Hell, the cat is a rotting corpse at this point.

    17. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are conflating "free software" with "open source software". This is a big mistake.
      There is free software which is not open source - you do not get the ability to see the source or modify it.
      There is open source software which is not free.

      Learn the difference.

    18. Re:Well by CadentOrange · · Score: 1

      Also, there are obviously ways to check if the source code shown is the source code used.

      Such as?

      Even tiny differences such as the compiler flags used affects the final binary. How do you know that the source code presented is the source code used for any non-trivial program?

    19. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are conflating "free software" with "open source software". This is a big mistake.

      No, I am not. Free (as in freedom) software refers to something more specific than just open source software.

      With open source, you may only be able to read the source code. With free software, you have many more guaranteed freedoms. I recommend everyone use free software for this reason.

    20. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One way would be to work with the developer and find out what compiler they used and what settings they used. If they're unwilling to work with you, then that may be suspicious all by itself.

      You can always compile your own in the worst case.

    21. Re:Well by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      I am unconcerned if facebook computers are trying to determine if I want to buy Pampers or Depends so computers can sell electrons to other computers to shove electrons in front of my face.

      But claiming you have privacy from...just what now? Government, when you are feeding it back to government because government demands it?

      What. The. Fuck.

      That is the historical abuser of privacy we should be afraid of. Even privacy apps collapse immediately with just a wink from the onrushing government computerized panopticon juggernaut?

      It's time for some kind of constitutional amendment to extend and require warrants to virtual property and locations online, to get around the loophole that it's "on some company's server somewhere, so you 'have no expectation of privacy.' "

      And keep an eye on the weasel politicians who would water it down.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    22. Re:Well by geekmux · · Score: 1

      I am unconcerned if facebook computers are trying to determine if I want to buy Pampers or Depends so computers can sell electrons to other computers to shove electrons in front of my face.

      But claiming you have privacy from...just what now? Government, when you are feeding it back to government because government demands it?

      What. The. Fuck.

      That is the historical abuser of privacy we should be afraid of. Even privacy apps collapse immediately with just a wink from the onrushing government computerized panopticon juggernaut?

      It's time for some kind of constitutional amendment to extend and require warrants to virtual property and locations online, to get around the loophole that it's "on some company's server somewhere, so you 'have no expectation of privacy.' "

      And keep an eye on the weasel politicians who would water it down.

      Government has little to do with it when 99% of app users merrily hand over their privacy when agreeing to the corporate EULA.

      Consumer data is valuable. The Government is merely a rude customer of the corporations.

      A Constitutional Amendment is likely needed, alright. But ensure you are targeting the right people.

    23. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An attempt by DoD at a honeypot for anyone of questionable (in their eyes. I've seen the list of characters of people that they deem questionable, such as having financial difficulty) persona? It seems like one has to carefully vet any person or entity claiming to promote anonymity.

    24. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The point is that, with free software, you have the *ability* to see the source, to hire others to audit the code, to modify the code, to hire others to modify the code, and to share any changes you make. How could any of that possibly be useless?

      Geekery knows no bounds, apparently. Look, automobiles are "open source" in that you can see the mechanics right in front of you. You own the car, so you can see everything about how it works mechanically. Yet, thousands upon thousands of people have been killed by defective automobile designs. If you ask a geek it should have never happened since anybody could have hired an engineer to examine their vehicle for defects, or they could have found the defects themselves and paid a machine shop to fabricate better parts. This never happens because people don't have the time, the expertise, or the disposable income to hire specialists to examine every product they use in their day-to-day lives. It's never going to happen either. You'd think geeks don't understand the principles of specialization.

    25. Re:Well by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      If you visit one of the forums dedicated to your vehicle, you can frequently find fixes for potential problems that others have worked out. For one of my own vehicles, it is recommended to replace the fragile plastic cam chain tensioners with improved metal ones. You can either do it yourself or pay someone to do it but someone else was able to do the heavy lifting of working it out in the first place.

    26. Re:Well by Dishevel · · Score: 1
      I believe that he pointed out rather clearly that he did not give a shit about what companies are selling to companies to get him to buy shit.

      Where his rational fear comes from is when an entity with guns and prisons comes for you. This is what the constitution is meant to protect us from, "The Tyranny of the Government". I also do not give a fuck that P&G knows how many times a day I take a crap. I do care when the police violate my privacy in an attempt to take away my freedom or my life.

      We have the freedom to choose the people we want to do business with (Exceptions being Government granted monopolies). We do not have the freedom to tell the government to fuck off.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    27. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing you said debunks anything he said. The free software philosophy has already been put into action with good results. You can look at the code, hire others to audit it, modify the code, hire others to modify the code; all of which has been put into practice. Free software rarely (I haven't encountered any, but I say "rarely" because it's technically possible.) has blatant spying like a lot of proprietary software has, and it can trivially be removed.

      Your point?

    28. Re:Well by James-NSC · · Score: 1

      Yep, this would be right out of their play book, where step 1 would be to discredit "security applications" and create distrust of encryption - to change the public opinion of it.

      The director of the F.B.I., James B. Comey, said on Thursday that the “post-Snowden pendulum” that has driven Apple and Google to offer fully encrypted cellphones had “gone too far.” He hinted that as a result, the administration might seek regulations and laws forcing companies to create a way for the government to unlock the photos, emails and contacts stored on the phones.


      Because if you create a back door for the .gov, only the .gov will be able to use it and will never abuse it. pfffft. too bad we don't have some type of golden key instead of a back door...

    29. Re:Well by torsmo · · Score: 1
    30. Re:Well by gizmo2199 · · Score: 1

      It's like some kind of disease spreading through Silicon Valley: any company touched by venture capital immediately compromises the ethics and value their product might have had to anonymity, or privacy the moment they start being popular.

      Or maybe it's the inverse. Companies claiming to uphold the sharing of ideas or their user's privacy are merely waiting for the money to roll in before they sell-out their users.

      Either way it makes you highly suspect of any app on Google Play or the App store claiming to be the next best thing in privacy/security, especially if it's free.

      --
      This Sig does not Exist.
    31. Re:Well by gizmo2199 · · Score: 1

      The obvious solution is to just use the binary you compiled yourself, which if you're paranoid about security is a trivial step to take. But more in-depth auditing obviously is out of reach for even the most knowledgeable tinkerers, especially if a program is intentionally crippled at the source level--for instance contains a bug which under a very specific set of circumstances will leak private data, but which isn't obvious from looking at the code. That's definitely the kind of backdoor a state security service would introduce into an open source project.

      --
      This Sig does not Exist.
    32. Re:Well by gizmo2199 · · Score: 1

      The government can already do what you're claiming to be so worried about. Happens every day. Shit, you could be driving to your mom's house and get pulled over. The cop thinks you might have drugs in the car, so they confiscate it, and take your cash while your at it. Good luck getting all that back without hiring an expensive attorney.

      So in other words, the Constitution doesn't mean anything when you don't have the means to actually claim your constitutional rights. There are a million things the government does already that are blatantly unconstitutional, but because they have a patina of cooperation between the two parties, it gets away with--illegal wiretaps, spying, drone strikes, etc.

      Another amendment wouldn't actually do anything. If politicians and their appointees have no fear when violating your civil rights, they're going to keep doing it. The only thing that will actually change that behavior is jail time for government officials who break the law.

      Instead what happens, the people who go to jail are the ones who leak information about the illegal behavior.

      --
      This Sig does not Exist.
    33. Re:Well by Dishevel · · Score: 1
      I am not asking for an new amendment just that I have no worries about what a private company knows about me.

      And we do have the power to fix it. As a people though Americans have become lazy and spoiled and will give up the freedoms that were paid for in blood for convenience.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    34. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Compile it yourself?????

    35. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Douchebag doublespeak:
      "“Whisper isn’t actually about concealing identity. It’s about a complete absence of identity,” the company’s co-founder and CEO, Michael Heyward, recently told Entrepreneur magazine. “The concept around Whisper is removing the concept of identity altogether, so you’re not as guarded.”
      Brad Brooks Michael Heyward Whisper Brad Brooks, left, and Michael Heyward of Whisper in Santa Monica.

      He has called Whisper the “safest place on internet” and portrays the app as a secure place in which users should feel free to express their innermost feelings and confessions. "

      To address co-douche-- I mean founder, wouldn't an "absence of identity" preclude you from knowing where people are, i.e. not tracking their geographic location? I hope their company turns to dust overnight.

    36. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To address co-douche-- I mean founder, wouldn't an "absence of identity" preclude you from knowing where people are, i.e. not tracking their geographic location? I hope their company turns to dust overnight.

      Good God, yes. Lord knows, what little they might have had of soul or conscience has already turned to dust.

    37. Re:Well by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      I am not asking for an new amendment just that I have no worries about what a private company knows about me.

      Why? Private companies cooperate with the government, so if a private company has your information, they'll usually hand it over to the government upon request. But even private companies can screw with your life.

    38. Re:Well by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      The problem there is the Government. What people choose to give to a private company is their business. Smart or not. What the government can compel others to divulge is a problem.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    39. Re:Well by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Nope. The problem is both. The government isn't even truly compelling many companies; they give up with little to no resistance. Furthermore, even if they were fighting hard, the reality is that if you give private companies your data, it will be sucked up by the government.

    40. Re:Well by Dishevel · · Score: 1
      Last time I but my head against this wall.

      You do not want to restrict what the companies can collect as long as the do it honestly. Restricting what companies can collect honestly only serves to reduce what the can offer and increase the costs of offering it.

      Restrictions should be enforced upon what the government can compel or even ask of private companies. restriction of government power in this area protects people and their freedoms. Being protected from your own choices has not the same level of importance as protection of our freedoms.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    41. Re:Well by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Restrictions should be enforced upon what the government can compel or even ask of private companies.

      Yes.

      But you don't seem to understand. I am talking about the the current reality! The current reality is that if you give your information to private companies, the government will get it, and you should be wary of giving your information to private companies for the time being.

  2. Careless whisper by telleropnul · · Score: 5, Funny

    We could have been so good together
    We could have lived this dance forever

  3. Surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this really surprise anyone in this day and age? I mean seriously! Nothing is private or anonymous anymore, NOTHING!

    1. Re:Surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "He’s a guy that we’ll track for the rest of his life and he’ll have no idea we’ll be watching him," the same Whisper executive said.

      Pro-tip: The people who scream the loudest about privacy and anonymity, but won't show you their source: these are the honeypots. And agent provocateurs. If someone's pushing you to do something for no good reason, perhaps you should ignore them.

  4. Don't trust any app these days by Nyder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's getting to the point where you can't trust anything these days, because the NSA or other criminals seem to have access to your data.

    And remember, the FBI head dude doesn't want you to use encryption.

    Is this the America we are supposed to be proud of?

    --
    Be seeing you...
    1. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      The check is in the post
      I won't come in your mouth
      I promise we won't track you

    2. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If you want people with secrets worth investigating, surely advertising as providing secrecy is the best way to recruit them.

      If you are hiding a needle in a haystack, you might want to make sure the hay is magnetic first.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    3. Re:Don't trust any app these days by vikingpower · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Mod parent up into the sky, please. As a European, I am watching at the sideline, with ever-growing incredulity, how US Americans take all this, and worse, and more, from their so-called "government", from their unbelievably brutal "law enforcement", from what once was their state. What do you people need for an incentive to kick off a revolution ? Maybe if the US government put almost 1% of your population into prison, you would finally protest. Oh no, shit, wait....

      --
      Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    4. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      MOST of us have next to nothing and we're scared shitless of losing what little we do have, or worse -being put through "rendition".
      The revolution will not be televised; in fact, the revolution will not be at all.

    5. Re:Don't trust any app these days by DirePickle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Europeans should have a pretty damn good understanding that things can get really, really, really bad without people revolting.

    6. Re:Don't trust any app these days by vikingpower · · Score: 1

      As a European, as a matter of fact, I do have that understanding. Hence, my post. ( The French Revolution, 1789 - 1792, began for less than what is going in the US today, BTW. )

      --
      Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    7. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Calydor · · Score: 1

      So is North Korea.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    8. Re:Don't trust any app these days by weilawei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We're all spread out. There's hotspots of issues and then huge swaths of relatively uninhabited areas without anything resembling a critical mass.

      The people in the cities are out in the streets. The people in the suburbs and farms still have something to lose.

    9. Re:Don't trust any app these days by vikingpower · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Good point. The French revolution began in Paris, with its - for then - record-high concentration of poor people. So did the communist revolution: it began in St. Petersburg. Not on the countryside. LA, what are you waiting for ?? ;-)

      --
      Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    10. Re:Don't trust any app these days by geekmux · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up into the sky, please. As a European, I am watching at the sideline, with ever-growing incredulity, how US Americans take all this, and worse, and more, from their so-called "government", from their unbelievably brutal "law enforcement", from what once was their state. What do you people need for an incentive to kick off a revolution ? Maybe if the US government put almost 1% of your population into prison, you would finally protest. Oh no, shit, wait....

      Ironically you're asking when we might revolt against our own Government when yours disarmed you long ago, removing your capability altogether.

      Guess you better hope these US polices don't start bleeding over to your countr...oh. Nevermind.

      Yeah, good luck to you.

    11. Re:Don't trust any app these days by vikingpower · · Score: 0

      Do you really believe that, as you have an NRA and a gazillion of shotguns all over the country, you are capable to keep your own government in check ? Then, how come that all those rifle-toting and hard-working rednecks did nothing to prevent your own government from 1) spying upon you 2) running your federal deficit up wazoo, to the point of being, as a state, virtually bankrupt 3) losing three major overseas wars ( Vietnam, Irak, Afghanistan ) in a row with your own money ?

      --
      Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    12. Re:Don't trust any app these days by BitZtream · · Score: 0

      So, what perfect country are you living in that has no issues with its government?

      I ask because looking at your nick, I'm guessing you're scandinavian ... and there isn't any country in that region that isn't pretty fucked up in the head at the moment though you like to pretend you aren't. Tell me which country you're acting like is so perfect and I'll provide you with a nice list of reasons its no better.

      Actually understanding the world ... there isn't a country in Europe at the moment that you could possibly live in and have the ridiculous attitude you're carrying around with you.

      You're just a loud mouthed moron too stupid to realize you live in a fucked up country as well. Just shut the fuck up and pull your head out of your ass, it already has enough hot air in it.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    13. Re:Don't trust any app these days by vikingpower · · Score: 1

      The country I live in is not perfect, true. Although, not having reached the same level as not-perfectness as the USA, in spite of its population's tininess, it beats said USA by a couple of horselenghts. I live in Austria, BTW.

      --
      Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    14. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So what you are saying is "You're fucked up too. So therefore I am not fucked up"
      Your skills are immeasurable! Really... they are not measurable; we do not have the instruments to measure such small quantities.

      This is why the US is going to shit. The only thing being done is navel-gazing and moronic repetition of "USA! USA! USA! We're #1! We're #1" Stop that stupid behavior. Look around and become a world leader again instead of think you still are!

    15. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Eunuchswear · · Score: 2

      Ironically you're asking when we might revolt against our own Government when yours disarmed you long ago, removing your capability altogether.

      Why do Americans think all Europeans are unarmed?

      Gun ownership per 100 residents:

      USA: 90
      Switzerland: 45.7
      Finland: 45.3
      France: 31.2
      Austria: 30.4
      Germany: 30.3
      Greece: 22.5
      Belgium: 17.2 ...
      England: 6.2

      Gun ownership is lower in Europe, but not as low as some people think.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    16. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MOST of us have next to nothing and we're scared shitless of losing what little we do have, or worse -being put through "rendition".
      The revolution will not be televised; in fact, the revolution will not be at all.

      This is the problem with you Americans, if you all decided to start a revolution, the US soldiers wouldn't shoot their own countrymen, chances are far more likely that they storm the pentagon and whitehouse and line everyone full of lead.

      This is the cornerstone of a revolution after all, the military does the work. The militia just lights the fuse.

    17. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it's "FBI head douche". FTFY

    18. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really believe that, as you have an NRA and a gazillion of shotguns all over the country, you are capable to keep your own government in check ?

      It's working, can't you see?

    19. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      This is because we (society as a whole) don't view cyber crime as a threat. Cyber Crime doesn't hurt anyone (except the victims). Cyber Criminals are in hard to reach places like Russia. There is nothing we can do. So, it exists.

      IF and WHEN we view Cyber crime properly, the laws for ID theft will change to put the pressure on those extending credit, safe guarding our banks and otherwise those in charge of data collection for the purposes of commerce. When those changes are made, we'll sacrifice a little bit of convenience for a little bit security.

      Proper security is not convenient.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    20. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      The American Revolution started for less than what is going on now. We just have a bunch of pussies and wusses who are too afraid that they might have to give up their iPhones. The same people are hell bent on making sure that if and when it gets "bad enough" to revolt, we are completely disarmed and cannot.

      The worst part, is both the (D) and (R) people are slow walking us towards the tyranny we all see coming, in the name of "protecting freedom".

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    21. Re:Don't trust any app these days by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      So what kind of revolution did you mean?

    22. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should blame your neighbor. We keep voting in the same people all the time.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    23. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0

      I always counter this. Name one country that has had a tyranny when the people were well armed?

      1) Everyone is spying on everyone. Don't think that the US is alone on this, we just do it more and better than most

      2) That is because Europe is bankrupting itself with socialist policies. Why we want to follow after Europe is beyond me.

      3) We haven't "lost" wars. Our problem is that we don't have the stomach to leave petty dictators in place to rule the untamed. We remove them, and something worse comes along and really fucks things up. This has been going on so fucking long, most kids these days have no idea how this shit started. The Shah of Iran was an asshole, no doubt, but he was our asshole. We helped remove him (thanks Jimmy Carter) and now, what is in Iran is much worse. Same with Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria

      It doesn't take much to realize that some places aren't ready for freedom and democracy. The culture simply doesn't permit it. One can change culture, but it usually takes several generations to do so. The thing about freedom is, the people MUST want it more than anything else, or they are destined to be slaves to tyranny.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    24. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      If it wasn't for the shitty USA, you'd be speaking German ... oh wait ;)

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    25. Re:Don't trust any app these days by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      LA, what are you waiting for ?? ;-)

      American Idol to get cancelled?

    26. Re:Don't trust any app these days by GPierce · · Score: 1

      You can get rid of the politicians , but that doesn't get rid of the people who own them.

      --

      When you are dancing with wolves, never limp
    27. Re:Don't trust any app these days by DirePickle · · Score: 1

      The American revolution happened when wealthy people grew dissatisfied with the status quo. Most people would have been perfectly happy for things to continue as they were.

    28. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The French Revolution, ironically, could be taken as an example of something that can get really bad WITH people revolting.

    29. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 0

      I just have to ask: How old are you? Seriously, your opinions come off as very juvenile. Which is not to say you are a juvenile, you could very well be an adult with juvenile opinions. Which would be sad.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    30. Re:Don't trust any app these days by vikingpower · · Score: 1

      Holy shit !

      It doesn't take much to realize that some places aren't ready for freedom and democracy.

      Are there actually people still believing that Bushian crap ? Obviously, yes ( at least you ). Up to the next interventionist war which will cost the already-bankrupt US a trillion dollars. Well done, well done.

      --
      Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    31. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Oh right, because my opinions aren't finely nuanced, they must be juvenile. Or perhaps I happen to realize that finely nuanced opinions don't actually work in practice.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    32. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Or, as my dad used to say, "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In Practice, they are not"

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    33. Re:Don't trust any app these days by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Yes, I happened to believe it, because I can see it in places like Afghanistan and Iran, where the people vote for tyranny. And have you listened to Gweneth Paltrow saying we should give Obama all the power he needs? These people exist.

      And I suppose you'd rather have power vacuums than the US involved in anything, just like Obama. It is great to see how that is working out in places like Ukraine (where the US hasn't really been involved).

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  5. When are you going to believe me? by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

    When I tell you that privacy policies are pure BS? It doesn't matter if it's Whisper, Apple, or Google. They are tracking you, probably under orders. We won't know, unless we rearrange the house!

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:When are you going to believe me? by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Funny

      We won't know, unless we rearrange the house!

      Nice try, but it's still your turn to do the dishes.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  6. Do Not Track seems useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There are a few websites/apps that have allow the user to opt out of being tracked.

    Have ANY of these sites/apps actually respected the request of the user? Google certainly did not care, and neither do many others in Internet advertising.

    1. Re:Do Not Track seems useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Location tracking is not the same as browser tracking.

    2. Re:Do Not Track seems useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where in the GP did you see the word "location"?

      Answer me honestly. You're being disingenuous. Tracking is bad, because you're building a profile on someone, be it on their physical location or their activity ("location") online.

    3. Re:Do Not Track seems useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google tracks location too. Logged into google the other day with do not track my location turned on, have never given my location to that account, yet it there is was giving my popular things to follow in my town. Fuck google.

  7. Sue them ? by dargaud · · Score: 1

    So, why can't they be sued into the ground for product misrepresentation ? There needs to be cases like that with hard jail time before the practise will stop (ha! As if).

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
    1. Re:Sue them ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Misrepresentation of a product they're giving away for free? They're probably going to argue that there's no reasonable expectation of privacy on Android, and they would be right.

  8. No profit in it by EzInKy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Any business depends on profit to survive, and there is no profit to be had in providing privacy...and certainly not privacy without a fee. A fee of course means a method of payment, and every method of payment is traceable to some extent. Even totally volunteer systems are no guarantee of privacy, as governments are certain to be the first to volunteer.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    1. Re:No profit in it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You actually nailed it pretty damn good.

      Perhaps in the near future people will be paying an "Privacy Tax" a monthly fee so they can't be tracked by the apps/services they can't live without.

    2. Re:No profit in it by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      Taxing is done by governments, and governments must monitor if they are maintain control and stay in power. Paying a government a privacy tax would only further fund their efforts invade their citizens lives.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    3. Re:No profit in it by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Ummmm.

      We pay a "freedom tax" on property every year. You must pay money to the government or it will take your land away.

      It's wrapped in memes of fire department, police, roads, but that's what happens at the end of the day.

      At least a "privacy tax" to be exempt would give you the option of paying or not.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    4. Re:No profit in it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Businesses rely on REVENUE and INVESTMENT to survive. Profit is the reward for effectively using those to create a strong business.

    5. Re:No profit in it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought profit involved stealing underpants.

    6. Re:No profit in it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      every method of payment is traceable to some extent.

      With bitcoin you can opt out of traceability by using multiple "mixing services" in series.

  9. Here's the message by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      TRUST NO ONE!

  10. Thanks for the warning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Never used it, never will.

  11. Highly illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Tracking without the consent of the user is illegal wiretapping. The responsible persons at "whisper" should prepare for criminal law suits against them.

    1. Re:Highly illegal by Rashdot · · Score: 1

      Maybe not. Has anyone carefully inspected their EULA?

      --
      This is not the sig you're looking for.
    2. Re:Highly illegal by weilawei · · Score: 1

      I know that reading the article is verboten here, but they altered their privacy policy to allow tracking after they got wind of The Guardian preparing to publish this story.

      Four days later, Whisper rewrote large sections of its terms of service and introduced an entirely new privacy policy.

    3. Re:Highly illegal by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 2

      Tracking without the consent of the user is illegal wiretapping. The responsible persons at "whisper" should prepare for criminal law suits against them.

      1. You are tracked every day without your consent. Have you ever examined an email header? It contains these magical things called "usernames", "domain names", "timestamps" and "IP addresses" that authenticate who you are and when you did things. Do you ever drive a car? Then you have to present your license (containing your identity) to any officer who asks. Ever send an SMS message? Do you ever carry your phone around with you turned on so you can receive a call? Got a pass for the bus? Your "illegal wiretapping" is a fantasy.

      2. Do you really think the same government that is asking for and/or collecting this data is going to prosecute the provider?

    4. Re:Highly illegal by weilawei · · Score: 1

      Do you really think the same government that is asking for and/or collecting this data is going to prosecute the provider?

      Wow, you just don't get it, do you? Yeah, the GP should've been more careful about criminal vs civil, but you're being cagey (like a lawyer: smells like lawyer, username looks like lawyer..). Company says one thing, provides another. The government isn't going to file criminal charges against them--the people who used the service are going to file a civil class-action suit.

    5. Re:Highly illegal by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

      Actually, I do get it, and I am a lawyer. If you look elsewhere here in this thread: I indeed did make the comment that this company was likely to be a party in a class-action suit.

      I'd just like to see some thought applied before people start spouting forth about their "rights".

    6. Re:Highly illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That explains the raging authoritarian hard-on. Just like your belief that judges are infallible. Hint to you buddy: the highest law of the land starts with "We the people".

      In case you forgot your comment about judges already, I'll leave it here it for you, so you're not confused what I'm talking about:

      You know, there is a reason that we have these things called "judges": they are there to avoid would-be monarchs such as you from applying their own, independent law. No one would be free under your version.

    7. Re:Highly illegal by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

      That's you, Mr. Jones, isn't it?

    8. Re:Highly illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. That's the SECOND time you've accused Jones' of making a statement he didn't. While I'm not about to prove it to you, I know that I'm not him.

      I see from your other comments that you're a lawyer. Please, never represent me, because you jump to conclusions WAY too fast. What in your right mind makes you think that there's only one person here who disagrees with you?!

    9. Re:Highly illegal by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

      Oh, don't worry. I'll never represent you. You'd tell me some fiction about your case and I'd wind up being made a fool of by the other side. I doubt you'd pay your lawyer, anyway.

    10. Re:Highly illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have some serious issues. I suggest, in utter seriousness (I am not trolling; I am not trying to be an ass at this juncture.), that you see a mental health professional.

      Really. You keep asserting something you have no proof of, whatsoever. That's called magical thinking. Shit, if you even vaguely had some sense of Slashdot's culture, you'd realize there's a pretty high probability that I am not Jones--which I am not.

      You're disconnected from reality and you're exhibiting signs of being paranoid (Jones is out to get you!).

    11. Re:Highly illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe not. Has anyone carefully inspected their EULA?

      Irrelevant to those in the EU, EULAs cannot and never will be legally binding if it conflicts with a law on the books.

  12. Re:Threema by weilawei · · Score: 2

    Okay, NSA, we heard you.. we'll get right on that.

    "Sorry, we shut down Project Minaret. We don't do that anymore."

    Closed source? Check.
    Commercial? Check.
    Being hawked after the latest revelation that some other commercial and closed source app promising privacy was doing exactly the opposite? Check.

    Go fuck yourself.

  13. If you want to be sure your words are not overhead by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 2

    then do not speak them.

    You have a right to free speech (or perhaps a lesser equivalent outside the U.S.) You never had a right to be free from the consequences of your speech. You also do not have a right to anonymity, or to a privacy attached to words that you have delivered outside of your control. You have no right to be free of your own foolishness, if you choose to act like a fool.

    That said, this company might get it's backside sued off by a class action lawsuit if it can be shown that it was tracking its clients without their consent or against their wishes. I'll bet that in at least in one state there's a law prohibiting that, even if there's a clause in their license or contract that permits it (which apparently their new terms of service has.) Extraordinary terms in a contract are not necessarily enforced, as any first year law school student can tell you.

    Any data gleaned by such measures would likely be ruled to be inadmissible in a criminal action: it is merely the government attempting to use a third party to engage in an unreasonable search and seizure. It might be a stupid thing for a soldier to use this app on a military base against regulations, but the government would be even more stupid to try to use "the fruit of the poisonous tree" (evidence that would not have been gathered but for the unlawful search) against one of its citizens.

    All of this goes to show that you can't stop others from being stupid...

  14. Rather than helping The Man... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Rather than helping The Man, perhaps the Slashdot editor could put an update on the front page to make it clear this "Whisper" app is nothing to do with Moxie Marlinspike's Open Whisper Systems. I suspect the app name is no coincidence and the fact that it is nefarious was deliberately leaked in order to undermine confidence in Moxie's good apps. The least Slashdot could do is to ensure the difference is made clear.

    But that would require the editors actually doing something......

  15. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You also do not have a right to anonymity, or to a privacy attached to words that you have delivered outside of your control.

    "Words delivered outside of your control", seriously? What are "words not delivered outside of your control" then, the ones that you don't speak or say when you are alone? Privacy is fortunately broader than the newspeak interpretation you are trying to launch here. Very simple example: a phone company listening in on a phone conversation between two people is forbidden, even if though the phone company has "full control" over the telephone system (except in case of a wire tapping order or other legal obligation).

    The right to privacy is by no means the same as the right to live like a hermit.

  16. Whisper's already denied this by Chas · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2014/10/16/secret-sharing-app-whisper-to-the-guardian-you-published-a-pack-of-vicious-lies-about-us/

    Whisper, darling child of the online anonymity surge, is going to war with the Guardian over a story saying the app tracks the identities and locations of some users.

    Launched two years ago, Whisper says it’s the “safest place on the internet,” a social networking app that lets people anonymously share short messages — “whispers” — supposedly detached from any identifiable information.

    But in a lengthy takedown published Thursday, the Guardian claims otherwise, saying Whisper uses a handful of tools to subvert its own claims of privacy and anonymity. Whisper, according to the Guardian report, tracks newsworthy users and uses roundabout methods of finding out the locations of users who decline to share it; the company then shares that information with third parties, including the U.S. government, the Guardian reported.

    The outlet also said the app changed its privacy policy after it was made aware that the Guardian’s story would run.

    All of these claims, Whisper officials said, are patently false.

    Whisper’s editor-in-chief, Neetzan Zimmerman, went into attack mode immediately after the story was published, saying it was a “pack of vicious lies” and that “the Guardian made a mistake posting that story and they will regret it.”

    Reached by phone, Zimmerman categorically denied the basis of the story, saying that while certain degrees of tracking (such as a city of location) are possible through simply connecting to the Internet, the methods the Guardian described are “either outright false or misguided or misinformed.”

    “Clearly, their intention was for absolutely no reason to write a hit piece about us and try to scare away our users,” Zimmerman said, sounding irate at times.

    The Guardian story describes techniques that Whisper allegedly uses to find “newsworthy” users, such as those who work at Yahoo and Disney, or on Capitol Hill. It also says there is a technical backdoor that allows Whisper to pinpoint the location of users who have declined to share their location with the app, and that Zimmerman and another executive had requested staff to exploit it.

    But Zimmerman, fuming at the accusations, said such backdoors are “technically impossible.”

    “That is false, that is 100 percent false,” he said. “That was never said by anyone. I have no idea where that quote came from. I have no idea what they’re talking about. I have never, ever, ever asked anybody in my life, and would never ask anybody, for information on a user who opted out of user location. That cannot be overemphasized. That is a 100 percent lie.”

    He added that no change was made to the app’s privacy policy as a response to the Guardian’s story. (Still, my colleague Brian Fung noted that any changes to a privacy policy may invite inquiry from the FTC.)

    Whisper employees can, however, search for keywords (analogous to a Twitter search) to find users and their “whispers” that may be interesting to some of its media partners, including BuzzFeed, which publishes an ongoing series of posts that highlight interesting or newsworthy messages on the service.

    A BuzzFeed spokesman told Valleywag on Thursday: “We’re taking a break from our partnership until Whisper clarifies to us and its users the policy on user location and privacy.”

    Zimmerman also said the Guardian has had a months-long partnership with Whisper that used the very techniques the article decries.

    “There are at least three Guardian stories written off Whisper, and two of which we

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:Whisper's already denied this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. I'm sure I can trust an Israeli citizen with my privacy. He'd never cooperate with any government agency right?

    2. Re:Whisper's already denied this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So on the one hand, "the methods the Guardian described are 'either outright false or misguided or misinformed.'", and on the other hand “There are at least three Guardian stories written off Whisper, and two of which were using the methods the article is attacking,”

      They'd do better, IMHO, to stick to either the "it's all lies" angle or to the "media are hypocrites" angle, because the two are not as compatible as he thinks.

    3. Re:Whisper's already denied this by metamatic · · Score: 2
      âoeThere are at least three Guardian stories written off Whisper, and two of which were using the methods the article is attacking,â Zimmerman said

      The ones he insists don't exist because the Guardian article is all lies?

      If you're going to issue a denial, you should at least get your story internally consistent.

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    4. Re:Whisper's already denied this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It also says there is a technical backdoor that allows Whisper to pinpoint the location of users who have declined to share their location with the app, and that Zimmerman and another executive had requested staff to exploit it. But Zimmerman, fuming at the accusations, said such backdoors are "technically impossible."

      Nonsense. The word "backdoor" is not really appropriate here, but of course there are methods (and they are very technically possible) to divine someone's location even if they've declined to share it. Geolocation has become astonishingly accurate in areas where ISPs and telcos are selling their subscriber phsyical-to-IP-address data. I'm not talking about the 500-meter resolution mentioned in the article, but the exact address (or coordinates of the exact address) that the subscriber's service is billed to. Geolocation no longer just ties you to a city, IP address alone will get right down to where you're sitting, or where your ISP/telco thinks you're sitting.*

      "That was never said by anyone. I have no idea where that quote came from. I have no idea what they're talking about. I have never, ever, ever asked anybody in my life, and would never ask anybody, for information on a user who opted out of user location. That cannot be overemphasized. That is a 100 percent lie."

      This seems like deflection and the denial is a bit over the top. The only words in the quote he's talking about are "latitude and longitude." Really, he's never once, even in passing, asked what his team might know about User X or whether they had coordinates for a post from User Y?

      He added that no change was made to the app's privacy policy as a response to the Guardian's story.

      So the rewording of multiple clauses and the addition of others, just a couple of days after learning of the Guardian article, is all coincidence? Given the fact that the TOS changes specifically address the issues that the Guardian raised, I'm not buying that at all.

      You know, I might be tempted to sympathize with Whisper and with Zimmerman but for one fact, the Guardian reporters were there. They saw and heard these things first-hand. They have no reason to fabricate any of this. Paul Lewis in particular has a pretty stellar reputation and I don't see him throwing it away to write a bogus trash piece about some social app. It looks to me like Whisper was caught with their collective pants down, they've since gone and bought a belt, and now they should just own up to it.

      * I have a unique situation where I can prove this and reproduce it. I was roommates with a buddy of mine for 8 months up until August, and because I'm a lazy ass and we see each other every day anyway, I haven't changed my address. My Sprint phone service is still billed to that apartment in the Fairmount Park area (Philly). I have Comcast internet at my new apartment in East Falls. I noticed by accident that Google Maps picks up on my old and new addresses and it's repeatable with these steps,

      - Disable GPS and wireless on my phone

      - Force my cable modem to get a new IP

      - Go to Google Maps on my computer, it defaults to the center of Philly based on generic geodata, Google has nothing specific to link me to yet

      - Enable wireless on the phone, leave GPS disabled

      - Return to Google Maps on my computer 6 or 8 hours later, it now puts me at my old apartment (where Sprint thinks I live). Something on the Android phone has checked in with Google, Google doesn't have good geodata on my Comcast IP, so it apparently grabs my location through the phone's advertising ID which is tied to my Sprint bill at my old apartment.

      - Return to Google Maps 24 hours later, it correctly puts me at my new apartment (where Comcast knows I am). Google has received updated, very accurate geodata from Comcast about my IP, I guess they get fresh data every 12 or 24 hours.

      All of this while browsing securely, not accepting any Google cookies, not logging into any Google accounts, no GPS or location services are turned on, etc. It's kind of scary how accurate this has become.

  17. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    AC: have you ever heard of a diary? Do you ever prepare advanced drafts of your tax return? Have you ever had the occasion to speak to an attorney? There are three examples of words not delivered outside of your control.

    If you send messages through this "Whisper App" to your friends, then the government has every right to ask those friends what you said. (It's called "investigating", in case you didn't know.)

    There is no explicit constitutional right to privacy. Look for it all you want: you won't find it. There is only a prohibition against "unreasonable" searches and seizures. The meaning of the word unreasonable has been defined in the caselaw by the courts over the decades; in some cases the police and the government do get to smell your dirty shorts. Your baggage will be searched at the airport, in one example, because the "right" to privacy that you think you have is unreasonable against the danger you might pose to the other passengers.

    I'm not trying to "launch" anything, stupid. I'm just stating the way the law is. But I'd really prefer that you don't listen to me, AC: I'd really enjoy watching you pay attorney's fees up the wazoo defending your point of view...

  18. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is no explicit constitutional right to privacy. Look for it all you want: you won't find it.

    There doesn't need to be. The constitution is a whitelist of things the government can do, not a blacklist of things it can't.

    Your baggage will be searched at the airport, in one example, because the "right" to privacy that you think you have is unreasonable against the danger you might pose to the other passengers.

    We're supposed to be 'the land of the free and the home of the brave.' Free and brave people would not sacrifice fundamental liberties and allow worthless government thugs to search everyone at airports in the name of safety.

    So while the courts may often be complicit in the crimes against the American people, that by no means means that their interpretation of the constitution is the correct one. Often, they ignore the spirit of the constitution and even sometimes the words themselves in favor of letting the government do as it pleases. Were the spirit of the constitution considered, the government wouldn't be able to get just any information about you just because it's stored by some third party, and no individual with a brain would ever think that them doing this is a good thing.

    I'm just stating the way the law is.

    Which is pretty useless, because most people criticize the way the law is or criticize judges' interpretations of it. But it looks more like you're stating what others think the law is, which is even more useless, since those people are often hated for promoting police states.

  19. Mobile OS by jma05 · · Score: 1

    I blame the mobile OS vendors for this, especially in case of Android. A modern mobile OS must give full control for the user to understand and control which apps are accessing which data services. The user should be able to have a log of all these requests. The user should be able to wire fake data sources to these apps. There are very few apps that I would trust with my contacts list, account names and location information. Cyanogen Mod is working towards this and Google's attempts to acquire it do not engender any trust. The last company with legitimate use for Cyanogen Mod would be Google.

  20. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the government would be even more stupid to try to use "the fruit of the poisonous tree" (evidence that would not have been gathered but for the unlawful search) against one of its citizens.

    Suuuure they would. And I've never heard of parallel construction, either.

    As for "words delivered outside your control", the government keeps making the argument that since it gets (meta)data from the phone companies, the phone companies own the data, not you. Of course, metadata has been extended to include 80% of the audio content of all calls made within the US. And they're not collecting it, because they redefined the word 'collection' to mean 'not collection unless we decide we want to use it later'. Wiretapping laws sure helped there.

    And besides, who needs to use a criminal action in open court when we have the secret FISA courts with secret laws and a prison where everything done is in secret? This is police state 101.

    Who are you shilling for? Your whole post is disingenuous. You're either living under a rock or you ARE the problem.

  21. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    Oh, I see. I have to accept your personal view.

    You know, there is a reason that we have these things called "judges": they are there to avoid would-be monarchs such as you from applying their own, independent law. No one would be free under your version.

  22. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    AC: you seem to be a bit mixed up about this:

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that comment about "parallel construction". Perhaps you're commenting about something else.

    There's nobody making you use a cell phone. If you don't like how you're being treated (either by the phone company or by the government), you can always use a landline. I don't know where you're getting your facts from.

    The FISA courts won't try or convict you of a crime, nor will they put you in prison. From what I've heard, they will only issue a warrant ex-parte if the government can show a threshold risk to national security.

    I'm shilling for people who want the truth and fair discussion of the involvement of their government. Ignoramuses like you are the problem.

  23. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 2

    You know, there is a reason that we have these things called "judges": they are there to avoid would-be monarchs such as you from applying their own, independent law.

    You are appealing to authority. Just because judges say something doesn't make it right. If judges interpreted the first amendment to mean that the government has the power to murder anyone without any due process, obviously their interpretation would be incorrect, even if all judges kept interpreting it that way.

    There is no such single tribunal. In the US, it is ultimately up to The People to make sure the government follows the constitution. Judges will eventually be replaced and hopefully ones who respect the constitution will replace them, and with enough effort, politicians can be reigned in, and amendments can be created (perhaps to better enforce the constitution).

    Mindless individuals who feel that everything judges do is correct have no place in 'the land of the free and the home of the brave.' Or maybe, contrary to what you have said, you agree with the current state of affairs, and are not just telling others how the law is?

    No one would be free under your version.

    They'd be more free than under the reign of corrupt judges. Unless you think that privacy leads to a police state, but that would be strange.

    I do not want to be a monarch; I want the government to follow the constitution, which includes its spirit.

  24. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you send messages through this "Whisper App" to your friends, then the government has every right to ask those friends what you said. (It's called "investigating", in case you didn't know.)

    This story is not in any way about governments asking, in the course of an investigation, friends what you told them. You did not counter my example either.

  25. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that comment about "parallel construction".

    It means they don't need to use the information directly against you in court; they can just use parallel construction, which we already know they do in many cases.

    There's nobody making you use a cell phone. If you don't like how you're being treated (either by the phone company or by the government), you can always use a landline.

    And the government will still violate your privacy in a million other ways. If you don't want that to happen, don't get on planes, (some for now) buses, (some, for now) trains, and don't screw around anywhere near the border. Isn't it nice how, in a supposedly free country, so many options are unavailable to you if you want to keep your privacy? And I'm sure this is perfectly fine with you, being a raging authoritarian and all.

    Yeah, just tell people not to use those things. It's not like it's nearly impossible to avoid interacting with third parties that the government retrieves information from, right? Under these nonsensical rules, just about any company can just hand over information about you, and there's nothing you can do about it.

    From what I've heard, they will only issue a warrant ex-parte if the government can show a threshold risk to national security.

    Right. The rubberstamping court. All the while the NSA collects people's "metadata" en masse. But it's okay, because they have deals with (or have threatened) third parties. Now that's Small Government for you!

  26. No app or website can ever claim anonymity ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... unless it requires you to connect over Tor. If they expect you to connect directly to their servers over plain old IP, then there's no anonymity; they know who you are, and any claims otherwise just amount to "Trust us not to tell anyone else."

    1. Re:No app or website can ever claim anonymity ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tor doesn't do much if they
      1) Have assigned you a unique identifier, and
      2) Log your location

  27. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    "You are appealing to authority. Just because judges say something doesn't make it right."

    And just because you say it doesn't make it right. Which do you think I'm going to trust more. A judge, or you?

  28. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm talking about:

    the government would be even more stupid to try to use "the fruit of the poisonous tree" (evidence that would not have been gathered but for the unlawful search) against one of its citizens.

    Parallel construction is an end-run around that. Fuck, how blindingly obvious do I need to make it? I QUOTED you, for fuck's sake.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that comment about "parallel construction". Perhaps you're commenting about something else.

    I'm talking about what YOU said. I'm talking about the thing YOU SAID, that I QUOTED. You're definitely shilling. And you're not fooling anyone here. Yeah, you've probably got buddies or sockpuppets with mod points, but you're still not fooling anyone. Shill score of 0/10.

  29. Trusted code by salesgeek · · Score: 1

    is code you can download, review and modify. The moment a third party or a internet based service is involved, there can be on trust.

    --
    -- $G
  30. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

    And just because you say it doesn't make it right.

    I never said that it did.

    Which do you think I'm going to trust more. A judge, or you?

    The constitution, maybe? Arguments stand on their own merit. There is no need to trust me or a judge.

    "If judges interpreted the first amendment to mean that the government has the power to murder anyone without any due process, obviously their interpretation would be incorrect, even if all judges kept interpreting it that way."

    But hey, knowing you, I'm sure you'd put all your faith in the judge. Constitution be damned.

  31. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

    Wait... are you by any chance studying under cold fjord, one of the greatest superheroes of the modern age!? Everything would make sense. You're trying to save us all from those pesky individual liberties.

  32. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    It would be nice if you'd get your concepts straight and use proper terminology. I think by "parallel construction" you mean "independent discovery": a prosecutor gets to use evidence against you collected independently from illegally-collected evidence.

    You don't have a right to be anonymous to the government. Your "right to privacy" does not mean the government has to erase you from all their databases. That is what is nonsensical.

    And you claimed that the FISA court would put you in prison. I guess that you've changed your mind.

    Does the FISA court rubber-stamp warrants? Nobody in the public really knows, because it's a secret court. That is what I find wrong about that court...

  33. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

    You don't have a right to be anonymous to the government. Your "right to privacy" does not mean the government has to erase you from all their databases. That is what is nonsensical.

    What is nonsensical is you ignoring my post, ignoring what my actual position is, and ignoring and all the implications your stupid position has. But making it impossible to have any privacy because the government has the power to get any information from third parties is actually a good thing, because 'the land of the free and the home of the brave' is all about bravely giving up freedoms to the government so it can be free to do as it pleases.

    And you claimed that the FISA court would put you in prison.

    No, I didn't.

  34. Silent Circle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Welcome to Silent Circle my friends. Privacy is a right, not a privilege.

    Any service that does not cost money, must survive by selling your data to someone, be they government or advertiser.

    At silent circle, you pay for the service. You know it's secure, not because they say so, but because you can check it yourself if you are so inclined.

    If they ever offer a free product, it would be because a percentage of users upgrade to the full product. Freemium as it should be where the paying users subsidize the freeloaders.

    1. Re:Silent Circle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, let's see... they're offering open source software, but how about the baseband hardware? Firmware?

      This isn't Open. Just because I pay money doesn't make it safe. Just because some of the code is Open doesn't make it safe. Those are huge logical fallacies.

      I can run the best code in the world, but if I can't trust the hardware, that don't mean shit. For example, check out the HackADay finalists. ChipWhisper looks to be the coolest one, and they've got open hardware (although they'll be happy to sell you a board) and tutorials to demonstrate how you can attack an otherwise perfectly fine implementation of AES at the hardware level.

      Ever heard of side-channel attacks? Hardware backdoors? Fuck mate, you're busy giving away your trust with no rational basis on which to do so.

      captcha: exploits

  35. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    "Whisper’s policy toward sharing user data with law enforcement has prompted it on occasions to provide information to both the FBI and MI5. Both cases involved potentially imminent threats to life, Whisper said, a practice standard in the tech industry."

    That sounds like investigating to me, and although you might not consider Whisper to be your friend, the government doesn't care whether it is or not.

    So you think because I didn't bother to counter your argument (about wiretapping), that you've somehow proven a grand right to privacy? HAHAHAHA!

  36. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First off, "parallel construction" is terminology of the TLAs, from their own manuals. Prosecutors need to be kept oblivious of it, or they'd be complicit, and we can't have that, now can we?

    Second, read Jones' post: Where EXACTLY does he state that they'll put you in prison? You're starting to make mistakes. *I* said that, not Mr. Jones over there. I'm an AC--how exactly did you come to the conclusion that I'm someone else?

    I am he as you are he as you are me
    And we are all together
    See how they run like pigs from a gun see how they fly

    Fucking shills, can't even shill worth a sawbuck no more.

    captcha: rested (as in, "my case is rested")

  37. The difference between US and China apps... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... is that I know only English, not Chinese.

    Regarding privacy/anonimity and general security, skip those two countries and Russia.

    Pick a good one and don't fall for that "everybody spies" thing. That's the lie that comes after the first ("we don't spy) was exposed. OTOH, the internet is based mainly in the US... so there.

  38. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    Parallel construction: hey, I'll admit I had to look that one up. But if the government can find an independent source of evidence to convict the bad guy that doesn't involve illegally-collected evidence, then they haven't violated his rights (at least as to the crime charged). You can put a negative label on it if you like, but the cops get to do it.

  39. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    I'm not going to bother with you any more, Mr. Jones. Enjoy your fantasy...

  40. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    And you claimed that the FISA court would put you in prison.

    No, I didn't.

    Ooooh, I just can't resist:

    "And besides, who needs to use a criminal action in open court when we have the secret FISA courts with secret laws and a prison where everything done is in secret? This is police state 101."

    Oh, and please say one more time for us: 'the land of the free and the home of the brave'.

  41. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude. You're quoting ME. I'm posting as an AC. I AM NOT JONES. What the fuck got into your koolaid? LOOK AT THE NAME OF THE FUCKING POSTER.

    That's the THIRD time you've done it now. That is, jumping to conclusions. What in your right mind gave you, a person who should know better than to jump to conclusions, the idea that you can conflate two different people?

    Will the mods please mod this douchebag into oblivion? He's got a clear-cut case of an authoritarian streak and some serious paranoia issues.

  42. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    You're doing a pretty crappy job of concealing your identity, for someone who supposedly cares so much about his privacy.

  43. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude, do you understand why we use the phrase "fruit of the poisoned tree"?

    If I carry out an illegal search (the "poisoned tree") and find something (the "fruit"), it isn't supposed to be usable. When the TLAs carry out an illegal search and find something, it's STILL the fruit of the poisoned tree. They needed that illegal search to know how to find it again by "legal" means, meaning it's STILL the fruit of the poisoned tree, because it arose as a DIRECT consequence of the illegal search. Furthermore, it involves DELIBERATELY lying to prosecutors so as to keep them from being overtly complicit. This is criminal behavior of the highest order.

    The fact that you--a user on Slashdot AND a lawyer--claim not to know what parallel construction is only furthers my belief that you're a lying sack of shit who's shilling for the TLAs themselves.

  44. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    Wow. You claim that because the government overstepped a defendant's rights in collecting evidence on one occasion, that that evidence is excluded forever no matter how the government might get it?

    My advice to you is: don't ever try to go to law school. You will fail.

  45. Shocking?! by lionchild · · Score: 1

    Hold on a moment, let me find my surprised look. I have it around here somewhere. Oh! Here it is. *GASP!* Say it isn't so!

    I'm not certain why this is at all a surprise to anyone. Perhaps the app was poorly named, perhaps it should have been the Gossip app instead?

    --
    Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
  46. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow. Just... wow. Look, go see a shrink. Do it for your own sake. I'm not Jones and I don't know why you think I am. Maybe because we hold similar viewpoints? Why on Earth would you think that there's just one person on SLASHDOT that disagrees with you and happens to share a similar viewpoint?

    Please turn in your credentials and quit practicing law. I'd almost be willing to place bets, were I a gambling person, that you have done more harm to your clients than help. Luckily, I'm not a gambling person, and I don't jump to conclusions like you.

  47. Well Viber is a case in point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sort of like Viber, the VOIP app with no visible means of financial support made by an Israeli defense force former intelligence officer. It's funded out of Cyprus, from a company with connections to New York, and developed in Israel and East Europe.

    But hey, he says its funded by family and friends right? All those servers paid for by his friends and family.

    As if.

  48. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

    Parallel construction: hey, I'll admit I had to look that one up. But if the government can find an independent source of evidence to convict the bad guy that doesn't involve illegally-collected evidence, then they haven't violated his rights (at least as to the crime charged). [emphasis mine]

    Are you SURE you are a lawyer? If so, you must not be a very good one. They most certainly HAVE violated his rights regardless if evidence is admitted.

  49. Who is this Zimmerman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is he the same guy that was involved with PGP?

    1. Re:Who is this Zimmerman? by weilawei · · Score: 1

      Neetzan, not Phil. Totally different people.

  50. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    Yes, I am. Not all illegal methods of collecting evidence violate the rights of the accused against unconstitutional searches and seizures. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying the prosecution is allowed to introduce evidence against the accused if he can show the independent source.

  51. No cure for stupid by koan · · Score: 1

    That is all.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  52. Conspiracy of the NSA by ripvlan · · Score: 1

    Looks like the NSA has published an app to the appStore.

    Who would have thought that such an innocuous "secret" app would be non-secret. The fools! The government will find you, and track you - there is no way around it. It's a conspiracy, man!.

    And what better way than to appeal to one's vanity and build an app to let you complain. Social Engineering at its best.

  53. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

    Yes, I am. Not all illegal methods of collecting evidence violate the rights of the accused against unconstitutional searches and seizures.

    I made no mention of violated rights being limited to fourth amendment seizures. If the state has to break laws to investigate someone, their rights ARE violated.

    I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying the prosecution is allowed to introduce evidence against the accused if he can show the independent source

    Not in dispute.

  54. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    I made no mention of violated rights being limited to fourth amendment seizures. If the state has to break laws to investigate someone, their rights ARE violated.

    Unless the method violated someone else's rights, or violated an inconsequential rule or regulation.

  55. A "TRUE SAFE place on the net" - utopic & fict by D,Petkow · · Score: 1

    I always thought that a site that promises true anonymity and has a lucrative set of transparent terms and services for not tracking its users seemed more like a honeypot made by Big Brother. E.g. when Hushmail was the big deal of the day i got paranoid it might be funded by the NSA, and i don't even have to hide anything. My online footprint is pretty-much unique and if someone wants he could easily track me etc. "Hushmail, a longtime provider of encrypted web-based email, markets itself by saying that "not even a Hushmail employee with access to our servers can read your encrypted e-mail, since each message is uniquely encoded before it leaves your computer." But it turns out that statement seems not to apply to individuals targeted by government agencies that are able to convince a Canadian court to serve a court order on the company." Also Lastpass and the like - i am afraid of a breach.... I prefer off cloud storing of the kdbs files and manually syncing them or sync them via Drop box, or other third parity cloud service.

  56. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You claim that because the government overstepped a defendant's rights in collecting evidence on one occasion, that that evidence is excluded forever no matter how the government might get it?

    Yes. Solution: Don't gather evidence illegally.

    Your solution: Let them gather evidence illegally and then use parallel construction to cover it up. A-okay.

  57. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    It's really too bad that you're not the authority on this subject: your solution is so simple-minded. Not that I expect it will do much good for you, but here's a place you could get a little understanding of one exception to the exclusionary rule:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Williams

  58. This is not the app you're looking for. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Move along.

  59. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

    We're supposed to be 'the land of the free and the home of the brave.' Free and brave people would not sacrifice fundamental liberties and allow worthless government thugs to search everyone at airports in the name of safety.

    You might want to re-read the 4th Amendment and then pick up a history book.

    The Founding Fathers have always considered border searches reasonable.
    The first Congress passed a law about it in 1789.

    To avoid summarizing 225 years of jurisprudence, I'll give the broad outlines of what isn't a reasonable border search.
    1. Anything personally invasive or painful: strip searches, body cavity searches, x-rays, surgery
    2. Destructive searches of property
    3. Lengthy detention

    And that's pretty much it.
    You've never had an expectation of privacy at the border.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  60. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

    You might want to re-read the 4th Amendment and then pick up a history book.

    You might want to read up on "constitution-free zones," because they're sure as hell not just at the border.

    Now, personally, I'd like a constitutional amendment restricting the government's powers at the border, but that's another matter. And wait, I know I mentioned something about being "anywhere near the border" in another post, but I don't see it in the post you're replying to.

    You've never had an expectation of privacy at the border.

    You debunk your statement in your own post. You do have some degree of privacy. Let me quote you:

    "To avoid summarizing 225 years of jurisprudence, I'll give the broad outlines of what isn't a reasonable border search.
    1. Anything personally invasive or painful: strip searches, body cavity searches, x-rays, surgery
    2. Destructive searches of property
    3. Lengthy detention"

    I consider those to be rules that protect your privacy to some extent. Don't you?

  61. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

    Oh, if you're trying to equate the TSA with border searches, don't even bother.

    Now that I think about it, plenty of judges are so thick that we probably need a constitutional amendment that clarifies all of this. The TSA, border searches, the NSA's mass surveillance, DUI checkpoints, etc.

  62. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like many lawyers, your brain seems to be defective; it's a condition that plagues so many of your kind. What is the nature of this condition? It renders you unable to tell the difference between people saying "This is how it is." and "This is how it should be." Truly a shame; I feel for you.

    Quote all the judges and authority figures you like; you'll get no applause here.

  63. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

    Yeah. I thought that one would go over your head. QED.

  64. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

    Unless the method violated someone else's rights

    I fail to see that rights are not violated for the accused irrespective of any others who may also be violated.

    [...] or violated an inconsequential rule or regulation.

    Rules and regulations of any import are ALWAYS considered inconsequential by those who choose to ignore them.

  65. Big critic, never a cook. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ac bullshitters like you that haven't written anything of worth for security or privacy themselves = all talk, no action. Captcha = maggots, ironically. That's what "your kind" is.

  66. What's he ever written that's all HIS code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not merely using what others already wrote via Open Sores? Nothing I know of. So much for "respected". He doesn't have mine unless he's done original work. Any idiot can tear apart others' code (even malware) using debuggers or other tools and claim "I discovered malware (insert x)". It's quite another to have actually created a tool of worth, yourself, minus using "open sores" already written code or the programs of others.

  67. Really? by BellyJelly · · Score: 1

    The words "social media app" and "anonymity" in the same sentence? What could possibly go wrong?

  68. sure, i am convinced by hurfy · · Score: 2

    "Zimmerman also said the Guardian has had a months-long partnership with Whisper that used the very techniques the article decries."

    Would that be the technically impossible ones or the ones they would NEVER use?

  69. The perfidity of the U.S. enterprise by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    "Power to the .... err -- to those in power.

  70. Re:If you want to be sure your words are not overh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This guy has to be a troll.

  71. Silent Circle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What private information is Slashdot, the free service you are using, selling about you AC?