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Earth's Oxygen History Could Explain "Darwin's Dilemma" In Evolution

TaleSlinger (3080869) writes Scientists following two different lines of evidence have just published research [Here's the abstract to the paywalled Science paper] that may help resolve "Darwin's dilemma," a mystery that plagued the father of evolution until his death more than a century ago. Life appeared when the earth was tens of millions of years old, but evolution didn't go into high gear until the "Cambrian Explosion", nearly a billion years later. The two papers propose complementary theories that help explain this. The first suggests that scientists have long overestimated the amount of oxygen in the earth's atmosphere in the pre-Cambrian era just before the "explosion." The second suggests suggests that very dramatic changes driven by the tectonic breakup of the so-called "supercontinents" of the pre-Cambrian era could have caused an extraordinary leap in oxygen levels of both the ancient oceans and the earth's atmosphere. These two studies fit neatly together, suggesting that a world deprived of oxygen could have changed relatively quickly into an incubator for new life in shallow ponds spread across the continents and fed by waters rich in nutrients. Perhaps that set the stage for the explosion, which may have been five times the evolutionary rate seen today.

78 comments

  1. A matter of perspective by jandersen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... evolution didn't go into high gear until the "Cambrian Explosion", ...

    I'm not sure I believe that - one could reasonably argue that the growth in complexity from a soup of ribozymes to the first cell, was comparable to the leap from single-celled organisms to multicelled; or possibly far more involved than that. Another major leap was from prokaryotes to eukaryotes, a necessary precondition for (most) multicelled life, it would appear. What happened at the Cambrian explosion was probably just that now the organisms got big and touch enough to leave fossils.

    1. Re:A matter of perspective by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ... evolution didn't go into high gear until the "Cambrian Explosion", ...

      I'm not sure I believe that - one could reasonably argue that the growth in complexity from a soup of ribozymes to the first cell, was comparable to the leap from single-celled organisms to multicelled; or possibly far more involved than that. Another major leap was from prokaryotes to eukaryotes, a necessary precondition for (most) multicelled life, it would appear. What happened at the Cambrian explosion was probably just that now the organisms got big and touch enough to leave fossils.

      There seems to be an interplay between 'growth in complexity' and 'diversification' at work. It is undeniably the case that hammering out the basics of metabolic chemistry, and various other low-level-but-absolutely-life-critical stuff took a long time, and that it was one hell of a jump from 'glorified catalytic processes' to 'life as we know it'; but if you are looking at diversity as well as complexity, the massive increase in weirdo multicellular organisms made possible only by high powered aerobic metabolism (along with the large number of new niches for symbiotes and parasites that this created) was also very big news.

    2. Re:A matter of perspective by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 0

      There are also different mechanisms for scouring the gradient descent fitness space, and at magnitudes of different speeds. Perhaps this was one which itself evolved.

      - Nuclear mutation due to neutrons or whatever. Slow, usually deadly.
      - Chemical transcription errors, also slow
      - Controlled rejuggling of genes (children who are not bud clones), must evolve this ability
      - Sexual exchange, must evolvr

      We'll leave memes out of it for now. But each of those features produces (hopefully) useful variations ad vastly different rates.

      I'm sure I missed some, but this explosion may ne the result of the evolution of a much faster next-generation random l(ish) gradient descent space exploration mechanism.

      I assume at least some biologists are aware of this concept.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    3. Re:A matter of perspective by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2

      ... evolution didn't go into high gear until the "Cambrian Explosion", ...

      I'm not sure I believe that - one could reasonably argue that the growth in complexity from a soup of ribozymes to the first cell, was comparable to the leap from single-celled organisms to multicelled; or possibly far more involved than that. Another major leap was from prokaryotes to eukaryotes, a necessary precondition for (most) multicelled life, it would appear. What happened at the Cambrian explosion was probably just that now the organisms got big and touch enough to leave fossils.

      Bingo. I always assumed we had a billion years of creating a massive set of genes and proteins that would be used later on, and at some point (the Cambrian Explosion) that complexity had reached a tipping point. Your normal bacterium is awesomely complex, but doesn't leave a lot of fossils laying around.

    4. Re:A matter of perspective by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's an oxymoron.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    5. Re:A matter of perspective by SydShamino · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sort of how the 200 years or so of computer development up to the point of Singularity showed tremendous advances in computer science and engineering, and yet, once the machines are sentient, the wild diversity of the quintillions of robot that spread through the galaxy will represent the majority of the fossil record - especially after most of the old PCs of Earth have subducted.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    6. Re:A matter of perspective by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      along with the large number of new niches for symbiotes and parasites that this created

      It isn't just "symbiotes and parasites". When virtually everything is a new niche with little competition, you're going to see explosion.

    7. Re:A matter of perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that's what happens to a galaxy when organisms develop sentience, then why hasn't it happened already? Where are all the fossilized robots?

    8. Re:A matter of perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first animals with something that resembles a spine came after the dna had quadrupled in length. That apparently happened in a relatively short time, and gave new space for the diversity to happen. Other than that, the formation of super-continents can lead to very nasty weather conditions, with Sahara scaled to over half of the world and little "hyper-storms" at the ocean. That's something to look forward to 250 million years in the future.

    9. Re:A matter of perspective by Sique · · Score: 1
      What is much more interesting (and widely underreported) is that the Cambrian Explosion was neither an explosion -- we had the Ediacara fauna before --, nor was the Ediacara fauna the first multicellar life on earth.

      There have been multicellar livings before, like the Gabonionta, about 2.1 billion years ago, which existed for about 200 million years and have died out again.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    10. Re:A matter of perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Where are all the fossilized robots?

      They are your cells. Organic robots are the most cost effective implementation of self-replicating devices on this planet.

    11. Re:A matter of perspective by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      There were eukaryotes and photosynthesis by 3 billion years before present. They became slowly more sophisticated but nothing fundamentally new happened until about 700 million years bp.

    12. Re:A matter of perspective by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      There is fossil record of bacteria back to over 3.5 billion years before present.

    13. Re:A matter of perspective by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Sounds more like an explosion of life pre-cambian, but that the life that came about was evolutionary dead-ends, and died out under pressure from future life forms.

      It wasn't until the Cambrian Explosion when the evolutionary branches were viable.

    14. Re:A matter of perspective by Sique · · Score: 1
      The thesis was that after the Great Oxygenation Event 2.1 billion years ago, multicellular life appeared, but when the oxygen levels sank again, it died out without leaving traces. So it was not pressure from future life forms, but from the abiotic conditions that caused the dead-end.

      The banches of life appearing during the Franceville era weren't less viable than the ones appearing in the Ediacara fauna. If oxygene levels today would drop below 10%, multicellular life would probably be as endangered than it was 2.1 billion years ago.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    15. Re:A matter of perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a matter of scale. We have only just begun to study the space around us. We have not yet observed enough light.

    16. Re:A matter of perspective by dkman · · Score: 1

      If the hot air wind-bags go first I'm all for hitting that reset button. You know who I'm talking about slashdot.

      Alright, maybe reset is extreme, but...

      --
      I refuse to sign
  2. Cause or Contributor? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

    I don't see a logical basis for claiming low O2 "sparked" a diversification explosion directly. However, those species with the greatest ability to adapt likely survived the earth's various challenging periods, including this one, and what remained after each were a higher proportion of species with inherently advanced genetic ability to adapt/change/diversify. The low O2 period may have just been the tipping point.

    1. Re:Cause or Contributor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see a logical basis for claiming low O2 "sparked" a diversification explosion directly.

      They aren't.

      They are claiming that:
      1. Pre-Cambrian there was even less oxygen than previously thought.
      2. Supercontinent breakup caused a dramatic increase in oxygen levels.

      And it's the high O2 that sparked the diversification.

    2. Re:Cause or Contributor? by Muros · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think you missed the point there. Low O2 was the norm until the Cambrian explosion. They are suggesting that higher O2 sparked the explosion, as it opened up new ways for plant and animals to metabolize.

    3. Re:Cause or Contributor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. Before that, O2 was toxic for most organisms, so oxygen metabolization was already the result of adaption.

    4. Re:Cause or Contributor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      "They are suggesting that higher O2 sparked the explosion"

      That sounds logical from the chemists perspective

    5. Re:Cause or Contributor? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Thanks, I misread that. My point still stands to some extent, and it certainly makes sense that life would thrive when the conditions for it became more favorable.

    6. Re:Cause or Contributor? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      So did the oxygen simply appear out of nowhere (he asks rhetorically)? Of course not. If it was somehow trapped in the oceans or underground, and then released as postulated by these papers, then one must explain the mechanism that would have dissolved and/or trapped the O2 to start with. What was different about Pre-Cambrian oceans that allowed for more oxygen to be dissolved in it than modern oceans? What caused the release and the change to what we have now? Likewise, what mechanisms in tectonic plates shifting would account for a massive release of oxygen and from where?

      I am not saying these hypothesis being presented are incorrect, but they need to be able to explain the before as well as the after.

    7. Re:Cause or Contributor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the same way if you drop water on a sponge inside a bowl you'll see most water getting in the sponge before the bowl will start to fill.
      oxigen producing microorganysm started building up our oxigen reserves early but most of it was completely soaked by dissolution in water and oxidyzation of other materials, its supposed that they needed between 0.5 and 1 billion years of buildup before the oxigen started actually to be freely released in the atmosphere.
      tectonic breakup before cambrian "squeezed" these "sponges", releasing most trapped oxigen.

    8. Re:Cause or Contributor? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      If by "some" you mean "no", then yes, your point still stands to some extent.

    9. Re:Cause or Contributor? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      So, you think there is zero merit to the idea that 'adaptability' is a favorable genetic trait that would provide a greater advantage during 'challenging' earth periods. OK.

    10. Re:Cause or Contributor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh great, "new ways". Hurray for me. I was doing just fine without all that oxygen, but now I've got all these oxygen breathers breathing down my back about how I should "hurry up" and "go faster" and "why don't you have any energy" and "are you even alive". Ha ha ha. My kind have been living in these parts for millions of years. These young whippersnappers think they're all that, but they got nothing. I'd tell them to get off of my lawn, but I have no idea what a lawn even is.

  3. Terraforming by sinij · · Score: 2, Funny

    More you read about this, more it looks like terraforming. Sure, it all could have happened by chance, but if I was a spacefaring civilization trying to turn Mars-with-water planet into something more suitable for life this is how I would likely do it.

    1. Re:Terraforming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. That explanation is the one that makes the most logical sense. The only question I have is where are they? It's like they started the process, and then never came back to live here. Yet???? Uh-oh....

    2. Re:Terraforming by sinij · · Score: 1

      Considering impracticalities of traveling in-person, it is likely the work was carried out with automated drones and the planet was intentionally seeded with life that had a chance to eventually result in something approximating originating species.

    3. Re:Terraforming by gurps_npc · · Score: 5, Interesting
      1) Yes this looks like terraforming - the process of taking a lifeless world and making it suitable for life.

      2)That in no way at all implies aliens did it because....

      3)All living worlds (hopefully Earth is just one of many) start out as lifeless and then develop life. So all living worlds MUST undergo terraforming.

      4) If aliens did it, it would have taken a LOT LESS time then it did. These studies pretty much prove your wrong about aliens doing it.

      Whens starting up, a living world's major problem is fuel. It's very hard to eat generic dirt and gasses. So first they need something that can take whatever inorganic raw materials exist and transform it into something more easily digestible. That means taking the atmosphere and turning it into oxygen rich (or whatever other gas the complex life needs) and taking inorganic dirt and turning it into organic fertilizer (i.e. manure). Then more complex life can come along and live off the manure and atmosphere. Then once life fills the planet, multi-celluar life forms can come along and start eating the single celled life forms, which has become good food.

      That is how life takes over a world naturally. Intelligence simply speeds up the process, it doesn't change it.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    4. Re:Terraforming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you a scientologist? Your abuse of the word "logical", plus your belief in a science-fiction mythos, makes me think yes.

    5. Re:Terraforming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are plenty of examples of life subsisting on 'inorganic' material. Deep ocean hydrothermal vents, for instance.

    6. Re:Terraforming by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      1) Yes this looks like terraforming - the process of taking a lifeless world and making it suitable for life.

      2)That in no way at all implies aliens did it because....

      "Terraforming", even when used erroneously to imply planets being made other than like our planet, implies intelligent intervention.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Terraforming by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      Excellent film, if you can get over the cheesy special effects.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:Terraforming by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Just FYI, during the Great Oxygenation Event, atmosphere levels were pretty low for most of the time preceding the spike in levels. I'm of the understanding that it's because it takes a long time before both the top layer crust and oceans become saturated first prior to any excess lingering in the atmosphere. Which makes sense given that oxygen will bind with just about anything in the form of oxides.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    9. Re:Terraforming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "where are they?"

      They are here and are us.

    10. Re:Terraforming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If aliens did it, it would have taken a LOT LESS time then it did.

      I don't see why you would infer this. If the aliens knew that seeding the target planet with X would ultimately lead to developing life, and propagation of life in the universe was their goal, and they knew they'd never be traveling to the target planet personally anyway, why would they be "in a hurry"?

    11. Re:Terraforming by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

      Because long term projects tend to get cancelled before they are completed. Better to just get everything done right away, as opposed to hoping that the same creatures are still in charge millions of years later and still want to do the work.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    12. Re:Terraforming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We must die so we can live.

    13. Re:Terraforming by sinij · · Score: 1

      Maybe aliens evolved past corporate quarterly profit shareholder "optimization", or maybe they went extinct because of that.

      We will never know.

    14. Re:Terraforming by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      The mysterious "Band of Holes" seems like it could be the result of an automated drones that left foot prints or bore holes during it's operation here on Earth. http://www.crystalinks.com/ban...

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  4. Unseen evolution by Roodvlees · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Or there was plenty of evolution before this 'explosion', but we don't see fossils of that time because the animals had such soft bodies that don't fossilize well.

    --
    Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!
    1. Re:Unseen evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are right about evolution, but I think the 'explosion' their talking about is the ability to 'reason' during that time period and henceforth appears to be going up on a semi-logrithymic scale and the angle of that scale has been accelerating since. Maybe I read it wrong?

    2. Re:Unseen evolution by lgw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or there was plenty of evolution before this 'explosion', but we don't see fossils of that time because the animals had such soft bodies that don't fossilize well.

      Sorry, you just don't get that much size happening with anaerobic microbes (I guess it's possible there were larger fungi - we know so little about fungi anyhow), but there's still plenty of complexity in bacteria. There was a vast amount of evolutionary "work" to get from the RNA sea (or however things started) to bacteria, which today are really quite complex and diverse despite being single-celled. But the major milestone was cyanobacteria.

      Once cyanobacteria got going, poisoning the air with deadly oxygen, the doom of almost every other species was written. The Oxygen Catastrophe, was the largest extinction event that we're sure happened. From 2.5 to just under 1 billion years ago, they poured Oxygen into the air, but O2 levels didn't rise much - this is the mystery. One theory is tectonic, as mentioned in TFS, another is the "nickel famine": methane reacts with O2, leaving CO2 and water, so if something happened to the methane-producing bacteria (which need nickel as a catalyst) you'd get a sharp rise in O2.

      For whatever reason, O2 spiked, nearly every species died, and the slate was wiped clean. On the up side,O2-based metabolisms have so much more energy available, it opened the door to complex multicellular life.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:Unseen evolution by CaptainLard · · Score: 1

      If that were the case it would suggest that with all soft-bodied evolution going on, only a select few species evolved into fossilizable life forms. Seems unlikely (albeit entirely possible) that evolution was constant before and after the cambrian explosion yet we see a huge increase in diversity after the CE. If evolution was constant, an even distribution of lifeforms should have become fossilizable (theres that word again!) and the record would show the CE had a more diverse starting point.

      Also, does "soft bodied" even matter? We don't need an image imprinted in a rock to determine what a life form was. Look at coral. Mineral deposits and other rock formations are just as consistently guided by squishy things.

    4. Re:Unseen evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the mesoproterozoic (1.6 to 1.2 billion years ago), there were certainly multicelled organisms. However, these were non-prokaryotic algae and their relatives (including ancestors of seaweeds), resident in the oceans. These were parts of the archaeplastida kingdom (which also includes land plants, rather later). Also in the ocean, 'Dolf Seilacher considered some trace fossils in India dated to about 1.2 billion years ago to be castings from worm-like creatures, and similar fossils have been found in Australia. This is more contentious as a "discovery", although broadly in agreement with the last-common-ancestor genetic dating of diverse clades of animals (Ctenophora, Porifera, Cnidaria, Bilateria, etc.).

      On land, of course, there was little or nothing until after the Cambrian.

    5. Re:Unseen evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plenty of the fossils we have from during the Cambrian explosion are of soft-bodied animals.
      Also, going back well before the Cambrian explosion, we have fossils of lifeforms as soft-bodied as bacterial colonies.

  5. Explosion took 10 million years! by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Informative
    First off the term "explosion" is in geological time scale. 10 million years is a blink of an eye in that scale. But in reality it is TWO THOUSAND times the length of the recorded history, 50 times longer than the life of Homo sapiens...

    Second lack of evidence is not the evidence of lack. Before the Cambrian "explosion" the organisms had not developed bones and shells that would fossilize. It is very hard for soft bodies to fossilize and for the indirect evidence to stick around. There are very few places where the original primordial earth crust still survives without change. Almost the entire seafloor is new. Constantly being melted into the magma in the subduction zones and being reformed in the expansion zones. No evidence of anything would survive that. So it is totally incorrect to say that earth was not teeming with life or that the competition was absent.

    Today multi-trillion cell agglomerations are sitting on keyboard and typing follow up responses to pointless postings in slashdot. Many trillion cell colonies of micro organisms live symbiotically with these agglomerations which call themselves human. Trillions of these cells commit suicide promptly when the signal arrives, to be replaced by new copies. They know they are not in the gonad and they will never reproduce. Still they all tick along doing their stuff. The foundations for such a way of life for these cells were laid down before the Cambrian "explosion".

    And we become time traveling mind readers and state confidently "Darwin was plagued by the mystery...". Darwin was constantly complaining of so many illnesses he was such a strain on Emma. He had lot more than a mystery plaguing him.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  6. Aliens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Then there is the widely respected alien hypothesis from planet nibiru

  7. Evolution isn't slow by koan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    which may have been five times the evolutionary rate seen today.

    Look up epigenetics, and a few other factors, evolution is not slow.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    1. Re:Evolution isn't slow by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Or just ask bacteria about it. Between plasmid transfer and dividing as often as several times an hour, those sneaky little bastards evolve like nobody's business.

  8. I would love to Evolve... by Dareth · · Score: 3, Funny

    I would love to Evolve...but every time I try, these hunters show up and try to lock me into a mobile arena. It is seriously annoying!

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  9. Incorrect or at least misleading facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cambrian epoch was ~540 million years ago. Earliest evidence of life was formed ~3.7 billion years ago.

    1. Re:Incorrect or at least misleading facts by calidoscope · · Score: 1

      Sounded like someone combined notes from a scientific lecture on the history of the earth with a "young earth" creationist's history of the earth.

      --
      A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
  10. Paywall by xophos · · Score: 1

    Why are Paywalled papers still promoted on Slashdot?

    1. Re:Paywall by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Please do not advocate linking to some crappy ad-supported mainstream press summary, or somebody's blog, over Science.

    2. Re:Paywall by gmclapp · · Score: 0

      Because they're generally better?

      --
      Common Sense (+1)
    3. Re:Paywall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are Paywalled papers still promoted on Slashdot?

      Presumably because some Slashdot readers already have memberships that let them through the paywall. Those readers can then post back with information from the actual papers.

      Unfortunately, the state of modern journalism is such that I have more trust in a random person on the internet than in a journalist who talked to one of the grad students.

    4. Re:Paywall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Paywall, shmaywall.

      A. Find lead author's name in abstract
      2. Form goggle search with $LEAD_AUTHORS_NAME + $TITLE_KEYWORD_1 + $TITLE_KEYWORD_2 + PDF
        www.google.com/search?q=noah+planavsky+oxygen+animals+pdf
      There is always certainly a preprint lurking somewhere on the tubes...
        web.gps.caltech.edu/~wfischer/pubs/Planavskyetal2014.pdf
      (Technically this is not linking, just saying...)

  11. This is a software issue by Arnold+Reinhold · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Cambrian explosion is more likely explained in terms of genetic software. At some point, a collection of genes evolved that could reliably control and pass on complex growth patterns. Before those existed, multi-cell organisms had very simple forms and limited functionality. Once that morphological operating system was in place, a vast variety of organisms could evolve.

  12. Aliens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oxygen smoxygen. I'm not saying it was aliens...but. It was aliens.

  13. Oxygen levels unknown? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems to me that there has been a ton of folks claiming that scientists know all about the composition of Earth's atmosphere going back forever.

  14. Maybe high O2 led to evolution of hard tissue by tyme · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Rather than sparking rapid evolution, maybe the high O2 concentrations led to (or allowed) the development of hard tissue in existing complex organisms. Ocean acidification dissolves the shells of clams, corals, etc. and increased O2 levels could coincide with decreased CO2 levels (probably because the organisms creating all the O2 had to get it from somewhere).

    This being Slashdot (and the link being paywalled) I have not bothered to read the linked article. Hell, I've barely bothered to read the summary.

    --
    just a ghost in the machine.
  15. Snowball Earth by Jodka · · Score: 1

    Life appeared when the earth was tens of millions of years old, but evolution didn't go into high gear until the "Cambrian Explosion", nearly a billion years later.

    Another leading theory which explains this delay is Snowball Earth, a super ice age enveloping the entire surface of the planet.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
  16. What about the Plants by Yergle143 · · Score: 1

    There's still a big problem that low oxygen concentration does not solve.
    If life began 4 billion years ago...
    And first photosynthesis goes to 3.2 billion.
    Imagine then a long period of low O2 until
    Precambrian explosion 500 million years ago...
    First land plants 450 million years ago.
    Why couldn't land plants have evolved much much sooner? The complex bodyplans
    of animals are not required for the development of large plant life.
    My guess is that two things limited life early on, cold temperatures and dangerous UV
    radiation.

  17. Re:A matter of perspective and dice rolling by johncandale · · Score: 1

    It all helps each other. Creationists always hold that the chance is too small for evolution to happen by chance. Others like to point out that over a long enough time span, if you get to keep the winning dice rolls (advantages) it is inevitable. I always think of these gaps like that. Long enough time spans. Thou it does seem that evolution when it starts to happen happens in relatively fast spans. Usually do to a change. Also maybe there was a lifeform, bacteria that produced oxygen as waste.

  18. Re:A matter of perspective and dice rolling by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 0

    The problem with The Magic Soup theory is that over time, all closed systems tend to disorder, and the longer the time, the greater the disorder. When Darwin posited the spontaneous eruption of life from the void, scientists generally believed that microbes sprang into existence all the time. It was Pasteur who later proved otherwise. To date we have never observed the spontaneous emergence of a life form. Also, it Darwin's day, scientists had no concept of the overwhelming complexity of even single-celled organisms. I doubt if Darwin were alive today he would approve of where many have taken his theory.

  19. Re:A matter of perspective and dice rolling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The problem with The Magic Soup theory is that over time, all closed systems tend to disorder ...

    The "Magic Soup" theory that you're trying to strawman is NOT a closed system. Energy that comes in from sunlight or even just heat = not a closed system. The rest of the post isn't even worth replying to.

  20. It was... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aliens.

  21. Re:A matter of perspective and dice rolling by stevelinton · · Score: 1

    It's not a closed system. Sunlight is being added all the time .

  22. Re:A matter of perspective and dice rolling by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    The problem with The Magic Soup theory is that over time, all closed systems tend to disorder, and the longer the time, the greater the disorder.

    So is NYC more or less disordered than 1600? Yes, I know you'll go back to "closed system" but the point is, once life forms are involved, the disorder is thermodynamic, not complexity and structural. A beach, left for 10,000,000 years seems less disorderly than the rocky shore it replaced. Greater order over time. Sort-of.

  23. Re:A matter of perspective and dice rolling by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 0

    Your argument inherently depends on energy (order) being introduced into the system. Careful or people will start thinking you are one of those intelligent design wackos.

  24. Re:A matter of perspective and dice rolling by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 0

    And energy is radiating off as well. This is equilibrium. Have you seen any evidence that solar radiation interacting with non-living matter has ever created living matter? Me either.

  25. Re:A matter of perspective and dice rolling by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    You haven't defined "the system" but will change that definition whenever it suits you to prove your point.

    And sure, think of me as some wacko, it helps you hold your wrong opinions as fact in your fragile little self-image. Ooh, you proved me wrong and insulted me. You win the Internets. You are obviously deliberately ignorant, and enough people have proven your wrong statements wrong, no need for me to bother.

  26. Future shock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What a shock it is every time a scientist dies and instantly discovers that he is going to have to evolve fire proof skin to protect himself from the terrible heat in hell. Further, he will have to evolve the means to overcome his continuous burning desire for water. Having self blinded himself to any reasonings that there IS a God, his entry into hell will either be a complete shock or, like Darwin, on his death bead will realize and confess that he now knows that there is a God. It will then however, be too late.