Gmail Reportedly Has Been Blocked In China

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Gmail Reportedly Has Been Blocked In China

Posted by samzenpus on Monday December 29, 2014 @01:53AM from the no-gmail-for-you dept.

An anonymous reader is one of many to point out a report that Gmail has been blocked in China. A years-long war between Google and China that highlights the ideological chasm between the two behemoths has now entered a new phase. On Monday morning, reports confirmed online chatter that Gmail has been fully blocked in China. And transparency advocates say they know exactly what's to blame: China's Great Firewall. "I think the government is just trying to further eliminate Google's presence in China and even weaken its market overseas," an anonymous representative of GreatFire.org told Reuters. "Imagine if Gmail users might not get through to Chinese clients. Many people outside China might be forced to switch away from Gmail."

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So what exactly is it blocking? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 01:59 · Score: 1

The article talks about access to gmail accounts, either directly (web) or via POP/SMTP clients. It then has the quote:

"Imagine if Gmail users might not get through to Chinese clients. Many people outside China might be forced to switch away from Gmail."
, which would require blocking server to server traffic (and may cause more problems to China than the rest of the world). Is this what's happening or is it just something to "imagine", or a suggestion to the Chinese government on how to hit google harder?
1. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by Chrisq · 2014-12-29 02:00 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  which would require blocking server to server traffic
  Since SMTP allows forwarding by other servers this would require deep packet inspection.
2. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by Mostly+a+lurker · 2014-12-29 03:24 · Score: 1
  
  I reckon it is more likely to motivate Chinese private businesses to host their mail outside China. Whatever else you might say about Chinese businessmen, they are very good at keeping their eye on the bottom line. The state sector might not be able to do that, but they are less export oriented anyway.
3. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by Mostly+a+lurker · 2014-12-29 03:32 · Score: 1
  
  Since SMTP allows forwarding by other servers this would require deep packet inspection.
  If you mean the SMTP protocol supports chained delivery routes, then I do not think this is true (at least not used in practice). However, business customers of Gmail (at least) can request that a different SMTP server than Google's be used for outgoing mail, and (of course) anyone using an external mail client can send using any SMTP server they like.
4. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 03:45 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  China does DPI on basically all connections inside the country.
5. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by MisterSquid · 2014-12-29 03:51 · Score: 1
  
  Since SMTP allows forwarding by other servers this would require deep packet inspection.
  If you mean the SMTP protocol supports chained delivery routes, then I do not think this is true (at least not used in practice). However, business customers of Gmail (at least) can request that a different SMTP server than Google's be used for outgoing mail, and (of course) anyone using an external mail client can send using any SMTP server they like.
  I run a personal mail server and know I know just enough to know that I have vast chasms of ignorance about mail and network rules/firewalls.
  Wouldn't it be easier to filter outbound packets destined for Gmail's SMTP servers and prevent Chinese email users from sending email to Gmail users? (This is an honest question.)
  
  --
  blog
6. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 04:33 · Score: 1
  
  China does DPI on basically all connections inside the country.
  Man can't these dumb Chinks do anything original beyond slavishly copying us here in the west?
7. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 04:47 · Score: 2
  
  The US government as official policy does not do DPI. While I am quite sure various agencies DO do it, whether it is legal is Big Question #1, and whether its universal is Big Question #2 (and Im sure it isnt). The most you could say for the NSA is they secretly try to subvert comms between you and Google.
  China openly (in the sense that its official policy-- they dont generally advertise it) uses filter lists, works with companies to create "custom" chinese software (ie, TOM Skype), hotwords ALL text and voice communication, intercepts and interrupts VPN connections, and simply blocks websites they dont like (like Google). They also directly engage companies like Microsoft and Yahoo to assist in the spying.
8. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 05:18 · Score: 0
  
  Man can't these dumb Chinks do anything original beyond slavishly copying us here in the west?
  The US government as official policy does not do DPI. While I am quite sure various agencies DO do it,
  Looks like we're in agreement.
9. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by stephanruby · 2014-12-29 06:31 · Score: 1
  
  Since SMTP allows forwarding by other servers this would require deep packet inspection.
  Or simpler still, it could just be Chinese authorities purposefully messing with DNS propagation.
10. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by Mostly+a+lurker · 2014-12-29 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  Wouldn't it be easier to filter outbound packets destined for Gmail's SMTP servers and prevent Chinese email users from sending email to Gmail users? (This is an honest question.)
  I think you mean Google's MX servers (the remote end when sending email through SMTP). If so, in a word, "yes", much easier, assuming users are using SMTP servers based in China. Indeed, you could simply prevent the connections from ever taking place, simulating authentication errors.
11. Re:So what exactly is it blocking? by citizenr · 2014-12-29 07:13 · Score: 1
  
  just like NSA does on WHOLE internet traffic
  
  --
  Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
Dumb and stupid by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:01 · Score: 1

Cut off some of googles services if your that paranoid etc...
But cut off googles email service when lots of your customers use it is just plain stupid.
But that sums up a lot of what the top guys in china seem to be..
What... by Njorthbiatr · 2014-12-29 02:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

“Imagine if Gmail users might not get through to Chinese clients. Many people outside China might be forced to switch away from Gmail.”
This isn't how the internet works.
1. Re:What... by Chrisq · 2014-12-29 02:04 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  “Imagine if Gmail users might not get through to Chinese clients. Many people outside China might be forced to switch away from Gmail.”
  This isn't how the internet works.
  Its the way that many non net-neutrality lobyists want it to work. Except they have a capitalist vision of google having to pay to have people access gmail.
2. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:16 · Score: 0
  
  You think China's Great Firewall is just that, a firewall?
  All they need to do is direct all ISP's to drop all incoming mail from gmail e-mail domains.
3. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:29 · Score: 1
  
  Then please let me know because I use google apps for business and I have clients in China who I can't afford to lose. I also need to access email when I'm physically in China.
4. Re:What... by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2014-12-29 02:35 · Score: 2
  
  Then please let me know because I use google apps for business and I have clients in China who I can't afford to lose. I also need to access email when I'm physically in China.
  It's funny how these sorts of posts are always anonymous...
  
  --
  #DeleteChrome
5. Re:What... by wisnoskij · 2014-12-29 02:37 · Score: 1
  
  I think it would be simple enough for China to block all incoming email from Google servers/accounts. So ya, that is how the Internet works when you build a giant firewall around your country.
  
  --
  Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
6. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:42 · Score: 1
  
  Your post is anonymous too unless your name really is "93 Escort Wagon".
7. Re:What... by pla · 2014-12-29 02:58 · Score: 1
  
  I think it would be simple enough for China to block all incoming email from Google servers/accounts. So ya, that is how the Internet works when you build a giant firewall around your country.
  
  You might reasonably think that. You'd have it wrong, though.
  
  The Great Firewall can trivially stop people from (directly) connecting to Google itself, and can stop Google from sending traffic directly to servers in China.
  
  How, though, does the Great Firewall stop email from going between Google servers in the US, and Yahoo/Microsoft/etc servers in the US? Short answer: It doesn't.
  
  "Blocking" GMail may well effectively mean that few people in China use GMail. But TFA's assertion that it will affect anyone outside of China? Complete rubbish.
8. Re:What... by bill_mcgonigle · 2014-12-29 03:00 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Except they have a capitalist vision of google having to pay to have people access gmail.
  wat. Of course Google pays to have people access gmail - servers, racks, drives, power, transit, staff, real estate all cost quite a bit. Where would they get those resources for free?
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
9. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 03:06 · Score: 0
  
  anonymous vs pseudonymous
  google it
10. Re:What... by bigpat · 2014-12-29 03:08 · Score: 2
  
  Imagine if Gmail users might not get through to Chinese clients. Many people outside China might be forced to switch away from Gmail.
  This isn't how the internet works.
  That isn't how the Internet is meant to work. But yes, they could theoretically block emails from whichever domains or IP addresses they want to, but this is beyond what they have been reported to have done so far.
  To me the question is how does this impact trade and WTO rules and what if any retaliatory steps the US government is going to take against Chinese companies doing business in or trading with the US. Both sides have an interest in promoting free trade, but that requires an equitable two-way relationship.
  And on this side of the Bigger Pond, it seems very very hypocritical for Google to have withdrawn from China because of extra legal hacking by Chinese Military when the NSA has now been accused/revealed to have been doing the same damn thing to Google. Specifically I am talking about the extra-legal hacking of the communications between Google's data centers that was reportedly done by the NSA. If Google were being consistent it should just move its operations outside the US also... That isn't to excuse bad actors in China, maybe the hacking in China was more disruptive to Google operations and made the situation untenable, but the consistency of the reasoning seems a bit more suspect than it did at the time.
11. Re:What... by Stargoat · 2014-12-29 03:12 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Martha and I named him after the place he was conceived.
  
  --
  Hoist Number One and Number Six.
12. Re:What... by NeutronCowboy · 2014-12-29 03:12 · Score: 2
  
  The bigger concern is that you may not be able to reach any users of the very popular (and state-supported) Chinese services. If you can't do business with people in China through Gmail (and corporate GMail is a significant portion of GMail), you will switch to a provider who does. Or Google figures out a workaround.
  In other words, it's a real concern, but not one I would lose a tremendous amount of sleep over. I'd much rather worry about Chinese hackers absconding with my data than about the Great Firewall blocking my GMail.
  
  --
  Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
13. Re:What... by dAzED1 · 2014-12-29 03:24 · Score: 1
  
  really? If china blocked all incoming email from google servers, you don't think that might force people outside of china who want to do business with people in china to use email services other than google? Are you /certain/ you know how the internet works?
14. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 03:37 · Score: 0
  
  Here is a quick hint for you... get an email account on 163.com or one of the other "chinese" email providers.
  you can access your 163 account from both China and North America without issue.
  Best Captya yet: Bogeymen
15. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 03:41 · Score: 0
  
  I've seen people who go to other countries, go with a Chromebook or throwaway laptop and use a VPN and Citrix to connect back, where all their data (except for stuff they want to hand to a client) is behind an application gateway, so a compromise might grant access to what screens and views that user has, but not the ability to fetch the entire container. Domain admins end up getting another, unprivileged account created for the time they are physically overseas and their main account locked. This keeps coercion from happening, because in a lot of countries, asking for access to someone's work domain is as routine as a laptop search is, here in the US, and not giving that info may result in seizures, delays, up to long prison terms and an intimate encounter with a "Bolivian telephone" or other torture means.
  In any case, when heading to a , I definitely wouldn't be storing any data on that laptop that you don't want the local businesses to have, as they will get that data, either by subterfuge, or by outright coercion.
16. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 03:47 · Score: 0
  
  Do what the rest of us in China who use Google services / Android phones do: VPN.
17. Re:What... by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 03:48 · Score: 1
  
  How, though, does the Great Firewall stop email from going between Google servers in the US, and Yahoo/Microsoft/etc servers in the US? Short answer: It doesn't.
  If they wanted to? With DPI, which they already do.
18. Re:What... by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 03:50 · Score: 1
  
  but this is beyond what they have been reported to have done so far.
  No its not, they were tampering with connections to google in the past based on what search query you entered and forging RST packets if you searched for "illegal content".
  DPI is the bread and butter of the GFW; Im sort of astonished at how naieve people are about what they actually do.
19. Re: What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 03:57 · Score: 0
  
  Protip: if you are a multibillion dollar company trying to do business in or around China and you aren't paying off a lot of people, the government there will find you in violation of all kinds of things they otherwise wouldn't give a shit about. See Blizzard re: World of Warcraft.
20. Re:What... by Chris+Mattern · 2014-12-29 03:59 · Score: 1
  
  This isn't how the internet works.
  Yes it is. They're blocking *everything* from Gmail, including the SMTP traffic. In other words, people with Gmail can no longer send email to or receive email from people in China. People outside China who need to have email to people in China may very well have to switch away from Gmail.
21. Re:What... by bigpat · 2014-12-29 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  The reporting so far is that access to gmail accounts has been blocked, but specifically blocking emails from gmail.com users to other email accounts has not been reported as far as I know. But I was agreeing that they could technically do so.
22. Re:What... by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 04:33 · Score: 1
  
  And I would agree that not only are they not doing that, but that they probably wont do it. China's whole MO with the GFW is to subtly punish "deviant" internet users, and reward conformant ones. Blocking email from gmail users would punish both and make their filtering more generally known.
  They tend to prefer things like making gMail or google really spotty, slow, or unreliable so it is obnoxious to use without it being obvious that its actually censorship.
23. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 05:09 · Score: 0
  
  When has China ever abided by WTO rules? The main reason why so much manufacturing is done in China is because the Chinese government illegally manipulates the price of their currency.
24. Re:What... by Stargoat · 2014-12-29 05:10 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know if that is there MO. Last time I was over (and admittedly it has been a while), the GFW was ISP based. Some stuff would work in one place and not another. I think that sometimes we overprescribe evil genius when the answer is just plain old incompetency.
  
  --
  Hoist Number One and Number Six.
25. Re:What... by tepples · 2014-12-29 05:16 · Score: 1
  
  Except they have a capitalist vision of google having to pay to have people access gmail.
  wat. Of course Google pays to have people access gmail - servers, racks, drives, power, transit, staff, real estate all cost quite a bit.
  Chrisq's claim, as I understand it, is that Google would have to negotiate transit with each individual last-mile ISP to make Gmail available to the ISP's customers, or at least available at more than 1999 DSL speeds.
26. Re:What... by Balthisar · 2014-12-29 05:17 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know that that's true. I can still send email from gmail to my stupid @qq address. Of course I have to be on a VPN now in order to access my IMAP servers at Google, which is new these last few days. Google webmail has been down about 90% of the time for the last year, but sometimes used to work late at night.
  This blocking of IMAP (and presumably ActiveSync if Google still uses that, or whatever other proprietary protocol they may use in their various apps) is new.
  In my one, single, Chinese test account, though, I can receive mail from my gmail address and my legacy Google Apps addresses.
  
  --
  --Jim (me)
27. Re:What... by wisnoskij · 2014-12-29 05:29 · Score: 1
  
  I am not saying that it would not be something you could not get around. The the average user sending the average message would be screwed. Not only is the average email unencrypted but it contained a from address, and i imagine mosy outgoing email comes directly from a gmail server, and is not ping ponged around teh world such that the sender is anonymous.
  
  --
  Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
28. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 05:44 · Score: 0
  
  Irrelevant. His real identity isn't known hence it it anonymous.
29. Re:What... by tlhIngan · 2014-12-29 05:55 · Score: 1
  
  âoeImagine if Gmail users might not get through to Chinese clients. Many people outside China might be forced to switch away from Gmail.â
  It's a problem for a few Chinese companies I've seen - their whole company email is hosted on Gmail. (Not Google Apps, Gmail). It's not unusual to see contacts along the lines of Username-Company@gmail.com. Think what you will, but it's a completely logical thing - why spend money on email when someone gives it for free?
  The regular Chinese consumer, though I've seen uses qq.com or other strange all-numeric free email providers.
30. Re:What... by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 06:12 · Score: 1
  
  They design it to appear sporadic. Generally you have to hit a certain number of "deviations" to trigger a problem, and often things like VPN will work for some short period of time before breaking and bringing your connection to a throttled state.
31. Re: What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 07:14 · Score: 0
  
  I remember hearing that loud and clear in Vietnam "You pay". Those haggling pikeys are now the dominant power in the world. You'll pay alright.
32. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 10:05 · Score: 0
  
  Non net neutrality activists want a freer internet. The Capitalists you malign are actually the people fighting for your freedom.
  We are not going to get net neutrality by giving our government even more power to create monopolies,
  but instead by deregulating and allowing mini and micro ISP's to flourish again.
33. Re:What... by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2014-12-29 12:27 · Score: 2
  
  Dad! You promised never to tell that story!
  I hate you!!
  
  --
  #DeleteChrome
34. Re:What... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 08:35 · Score: 0
  
  Result : No or at least less on-line trade with China .......They are digging their own grave !
Nooo? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:03 · Score: 0

I was just in China on Saturday.
Nothing is blocked on the mobile networks.
Lots of things are blocked on hardline connections.
1. Re:Nooo? by zidium · 2014-12-29 02:39 · Score: 1
  
  It's ALMOST Tuesday in China! 22:49!
  
  --
  Slashdot Valentines Beta Massacre: iT WORKED! The boycotts killed Beta!!
Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:17 · Score: 0

I prefer China's overt censorship to the US version where businesses and government have covert agreements and everyone's left alone until they speak too loudly when suddenly there are a dozen reasons to arrest them.
For the avoidance of doubt, China's politics and economy are more dynamic than the US one. Despite the perception of freedom here, we're on the way down, and less free to make a discernible difference to the way things work.
1. Re:Hope it is blocked. by halivar · 2014-12-29 02:26 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I prefer China's overt censorship to the US version
  I invite you to move to China and try making a statement like this, and see what happens.
  
  China's politics and economy are more dynamic than the US one.
  They're simply years ahead of us in greed, graft, and crony capitalism.
2. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:36 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I invite you to move to China and try making a statement like this, and see what happens.
  Well, I don't live in China, but I've done a lot of business in China, and work with someone who is just completing a PhD in economics while working in China and feeds me a stream of consciousness about the extent of overt and covert state meddling.They certainly don't hide their censorship, let alone have a problem with people complimenting them for it. What would you expect to happen, please?
  
  They're simply years ahead of us in greed, graft, and crony capitalism.
  Mmm, no. They're edging from the right gradually toward pragmatic social democracy, while the US (with the exception of Obamacare) are getting more and more wacko religious neocon by the year.
3. Re:Hope it is blocked. by peragrin · 2014-12-29 02:41 · Score: 1
  
  There is very few censorship agreements in the USA. Most of the so called hidden agreements are just the morals of the particular publisher.
  
  --
  i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
4. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:46 · Score: 0, Interesting
  
  Your opinion of China is laughable.
  What do you think they talk about there?
  It is no longer the 1950's "McCarthyism" / "Maoism" where you could report your neighbor the communist/capitalist and they faced jail time.
  Sure, back in the 1950's things were pretty terrible there and talking bad about the state could get you arrested ("un-american" charges often lead to similar jail time) but that is no longer the case.
  When driving around China once i saw a large poster of Mao and asked the driver what his thoughts were around that. he had some pretty choice words to describe him.
  Let me ask you two standard questions I ask people who post on "China" posts.
  1) Do you own a passport?
  2) Is your passport stamped with a Chinese entry visa?
5. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:52 · Score: 1
  
  All you can infer from my post is that Obamacare isn't "wacko religious neocon", which it isn't.
6. Re:Hope it is blocked. by CrimsonAvenger · 2014-12-29 02:56 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  China's politics and economy are more dynamic than the US one.
  They're simply years ahead of us in greed, graft, and crony capitalism.
  Centuries behind us, you mean? What you're describing was more or less standard in the USA in the last half of the nineteenth century.
  
  --
  
  "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
7. Re:Hope it is blocked. by halivar · 2014-12-29 03:31 · Score: 1
  
  What do you think they talk about there?
  Definitely not Tienanmen Square. Or anything else blocked by the Great Firewall.
8. Re:Hope it is blocked. by halivar · 2014-12-29 03:32 · Score: 1
  
  Centuries behind us, you mean? What you're describing was more or less standard in the USA in the last half of the nineteenth century.
  Think of it cyclically; the past is the future, as it ever was.
9. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 03:53 · Score: 0
  
  Oh? You tried bribing an American cop? It's standard procedure in China.
10. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 03:57 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  They certainly don't hide their censorship, let alone have a problem with people complimenting them for it
  You're naieve. Some of it is in the open, a lot of it is not.
  For instance: Ask your average Chinese college student whether they have freedom of religion / speech, and they will say yes. What they often dont know is that you can be arrested for talking to a minor about religion, or talking about religion outside of a state-sanctioned church. Ask the Falun-Gong about their thoughts on Chinese free speech.
  Another example, for quite some time the GFW was analyzing google searches for forbidden content, and massively throttling connections with hits. Google posted an alert on their search page when such throttling occurred, which made the government quite angry. Why do you suppose that is, if theyre quite open about it? Why throttle, rather than displaying a block page?
  I can also tell you that it is apparently not common knowledge there that if you text something "forbidden" in China, the government gets a copy.
  Its wonderful that you think China is such a free country and that all of the reports of their human rights issues are apparently overstated. Maybe you think Liu XIaobo received his Nobel Peace Prize and was released from detenention, or that his wife has been released-- Im sure they would be thrilled to learn this.
11. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 04:04 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Yes, the people I know who were deported for "unlawful speech"-- totally imagining that. Imagining Liu Xiaobo too, and illegal flower ceremony. Tank man? Never happened. Suppression of free speech during the olympics? Definately not.
  And all those deals with Microsoft, Yahoo, and Google (since reneged, which is why China is so irked with them) in 2006 to help spy on their users and expose dissidents? Internet myth.
  Sounds like you have it all figured out.
  
  1) Do you own a passport?
  2) Is your passport stamped with a Chinese entry visa?
  Yes, and yes.
  In return Id challenge you to stand on a corner and preach the risen Christ, and see how long it is before thugs detain you and give you a 1-way ticket out of the country. Or you could try handing out pamplhets advocating democracy-- I actually saw one of those-- You'd get the same response.]
  By the way-- if you are a chinese national, please do not do this as you will get a 1-way trip but it wont be out of the country.
12. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 04:09 · Score: 0
  
  Look at this, we have a post on "Chinese censorship" and here is the first reference to Tienanmen square, an event that took place in 1989.
13. Re:Hope it is blocked. by RabidReindeer · 2014-12-29 04:33 · Score: 1
  
  Look at this, we have a post on "Chinese censorship" and here is the first reference to Tienanmen square, an event that took place in 1989.
  Whoever controls the Past Controls the Present.
14. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 04:37 · Score: 0
  
  Funny I have a lot of left and far left friends who would love for religious speech to be more censored in the US.
15. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 04:42 · Score: 0
  
  Fear the Ejyptians as they are going to return to power?
16. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 04:46 · Score: 0
  
  In return Id challenge you to stand on a corner and preach the risen Christ, and see how long it is before thugs detain you and give you a 1-way ticket out of the country. Or you could try handing out pamplhets advocating democracy-- I actually saw one of those-- You'd get the same response.]
  --
  What a crazy thign to post.... Why would i go to a country and knowingly violate the laws of that nation and not expect to be punished according to those laws?
  maybe the laws are "wrong" but that doesnt give peopel a reason to knowingly violate them does it?
  If you went to china (you claim you have) you must have read the documents they GIVE YOU telling you what sort of things are not allowed there right?
17. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 04:56 · Score: 0
  
  It was an ironic joke.. Travel
18. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 04:58 · Score: 0
  
  They certainly don't hide their censorship, let alone have a problem with people complimenting them for it
  You're naieve. Some of it is in the open, a lot of it is not.
  For instance: Ask your average American college student whether they have freedom of religion / speech, and they will say yes... Ask the KKK about their thoughts on American free speech.
  Another example, for quite some time the NSA was analyzing google searches for forbidden content...
  I can also tell you that it is apparently not common knowledge there that if you text something "forbidden" in America, the government gets a copy.
  Its wonderful that you think America is such a free country and that all of the reports of their human rights issues are apparently overstated.
  Replace references in your post with its American counterpart and it still makes perfect sense.
  Assuming you are American/Western. Don't you have any gripes with your own government? Or does China rubs you the wrong way in some particular manner?
19. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Balthisar · 2014-12-29 05:26 · Score: 2
  
  >For instance: Ask your average Chinese college student whether they have freedom of religion / speech, and they will say yes. What they often dont know is that you can be arrested for talking to a minor about religion, or talking about religion outside of a state-sanctioned church. Ask the Falun-Gong about their thoughts on Chinese free speech.
  But practically speaking, the average Chinese college student is correct. They're completely free, that is until they have a high-enough profile to attract attention. No one is ever disappeared for talking to a minor about religion or talking about religion outside of a church. Fulan-Gong has the misfortune of being high-profile and regarded as a cult, but again, if you talk to someone on the street about Falun-Gong, no one is going to knock on your door in the middle of the night -- unless you have high profile.
  Now obviously in our Western minds this isn't a correct situation. But if you're just an everyday college student (or an engineer at a multinational), for practical purposes, you have the freedom to say and do anything you want as long as you don't attract a large following. In a country of 1.3 billion people, your chances are quite good of not attracting such a following.
  We have this same paranoia in the United States. Who would Snowden be if he'd not been able to contact the press and get his story known? Just a nobody that's not a threat to anyone. If I have proof the moon landing was fake I'm just a crackpot. But if I have proof and manage to convince 100 million fellow Americans I might suffer a tragic accident, too. (Or instead of moon landing, pick something more serious; you get my point I'm sure.)
  
  --
  --Jim (me)
20. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Balthisar · 2014-12-29 05:33 · Score: 1
  
  > In return Id challenge you to stand on a corner and preach the risen Christ, and see how long it is before thugs detain you and give you a 1-way ticket out of the country.
  This seems to be pretty common outside of the Chinese faux Catholic churches I've been near. Shanghai, Suzhou, Nanjing. I say "faux" because the CPA controls the local flavor of Catholicism, and the government really has nothing to fear. Like many things, it's under control.
  I'm certainly no China defender (nor a Catholic), but a lot of things are just overblown. They can't even enforce traffic laws, let alone random individuals in front of a church.
  
  --
  --Jim (me)
21. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 05:46 · Score: 1
  
  Ask the KKK about their thoughts on American free speech.
  Its perfectly legal to espouse KKK doctrine; ask the Westboro Baptist Church, or the residents of Skokie, Il during the Nazi demonstration.
  
  for quite some time the NSA was analyzing google searches for forbidden content...
  There is no official policy for this, nor has the NSA been found to compel anyone to allow SSL MITM without a court order. In fact there is no evidence currently that any widescale SSL MITMs are going on.
  
  I can also tell you that it is apparently not common knowledge there that if you text something "forbidden" in America, the government gets a copy.
  Need some evidence.
  
  Don't you have any gripes with your own government?
  
  Of course I do. But you would have to be absolutely ignorant of life in each country and the repercussions of open political speech in each to even begin making the comparison. The US has nothing even remotely comparable to the GFW.
22. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 05:56 · Score: 2
  
  They're completely free, that is until they have a high-enough profile to attract attention
  Im not sure what your definition of high-profile is. If you form a house church over there and they find you, you WILL be detained, or deported (if you are an ex-pat), or at the very least monitored. I believe the unofficial threshold for being a concern is a gathering of 15 or more, hardly "high profile".
  Not only that, but a vow of atheism is required to have a government career.
  
  No one is ever disappeared for talking to a minor about religion or talking about religion outside of a church.
  Many have been detained and deported for it, however, and had congregations threatened if details about other contacts were not revealed.
  
  But if you're just an everyday college student (or an engineer at a multinational), for practical purposes, you have the freedom to say and do anything you want as long as you don't attract a large following.
  For all intents and purposes, no religious thought unsanctioned by the government can be discussed. I have not been to a Three-self church, but the reports I have heard indicate that they are not what one would call "orthodox Christianity". Actual protestant churches, like those for Ex-pats, require a foreign visa to enter and tend to have barbed wire or electrical fencing.
23. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 06:02 · Score: 1
  
  I was simply demonstrating in stark contrast the difference in "freedom" in China and the US.
  As to WHY someone would break the law to evangelize? Peter puts it well:
  And the high priest questioned them, 28 saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us.” 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men."
24. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 06:08 · Score: 0
  
  Evangelism around churches is generally allowed; outside of those contexts it is not. House churches are verboten.
  
  I'm certainly no China defender (nor a Catholic), but a lot of things are just overblown.
  Believe me, it is not overblown. Actual real life people do get deported for starting house churches. Actual real life Chinese nationals do get detained for pastoring house churches.
  It is loosely enforced, but there are periodic crackdowns. One might as well remark that Christian persecution in Rome during the first few centuries was slight, because it was sporadic. China's opposition to Christianity is no less fierce, though they are less brutal about it; where Rome generally just wanted Christians to integrate, China seems to want to eradicate religion altogether.
  The genius of their methods is that they are so informal and sporadic that many do not even realize that there is any opposition at all, unless they are specifically tracking the issue.
25. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 06:27 · Score: 0
  
  Or you can join the community party and say what you want.
  Watching this kind of demoning from US is humourous and based on zero understanding how how things work.
  In China you need to know your place.
  If you want to do business then stick to business and be fierce with it and earn respect.
  If you want to be a poltiician, then stick to politics and be fierce with it and earn respect.
  The difference between communist and capitalist vanishes.
  If you want a road from A to B, it SHALL be built.
  If you blinked, then you are witnessing capitalism at its extreme because its done with
  money and contracts.
  In USA and most western countries nothing of the sort happens. The politician is usually the village idiot.
  Elected into office, the idiot is in put in charge of a republic.
  Evey troll who has minority interest, some charity abuse friendly donation to dispense, or some
  NSA troll black bag of goodies gets to control the village idiot and do what is
  good for them, not the people that elected the idiot.
  Whether a road gets built from A to B depends on which minority
  interest group has sneaked in to control the village idiot.
  That is how a republic works.
  Name one western politicians that doesn't fit this description.
26. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 06:50 · Score: 0
  
  News flash: there are profitable small businesses in countries that have universal healthcare. Please remove your Republican tin-foil hat.
27. Re:Hope it is blocked. by tepples · 2014-12-29 07:32 · Score: 1
  
  There is very few censorship agreements in the USA. Most of the so called hidden agreements are just the morals of the particular publisher.
  And some are laws that allow a publisher to inflict its will on third parties, such as intellectual protectionism/imaginary property laws.
28. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 07:35 · Score: 0
  
  My faith tells me that I must consume THC to have communion with my God. If I do that, they will arrest me in most of the US.
  Not very free to me.
29. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 07:52 · Score: 0
  
  Since you proposed a challenge, how about this:
  What if I give you a stack of flyers (of my choosing) and you stand in front of your nations capital and hand them out?
  Since you clearly have "free speech" laws and can say whatever you want, you have nothing to fear right?
  I mean this clearly shows the difference between US and China and your "freedoms" doesn't it? Just because i handed you a stack of "hate propaganda" or "treason" material should be irrelevant, right? The US has never arrested/deported anyone for exercising their "freedom of speech"?
  ÃoeWe must obey God rather than men."
  Good thing the US has "separation of state and religion" rules for those of us who do not believe in "god".
  Here is another one for you, go break some law and then tell them you report to a "higher authority" and see if they buy that one.
  I think a lot of the "terrorists" in GITMO tried that response without success.
30. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 07:57 · Score: 0
  
  Now I see your mouth moving, but nothing intelligible is coming out.
  
  Its perfectly legal to espouse KKK doctrine; ask the Westboro Baptist Church, or the residents of Skokie, Il during the Nazi demonstration.
  Are you a total fucking idiot?
  You think every KKK cardholder isn't on some no fly list, watch list, Police computer...
  I don't consider America "free" if your thoughts on race relation gets you stopped on the street when the police cruiser trips off an alarm as it automatically scanned your plate.
  
  There is no official policy for this, nor has the NSA been found to compel anyone to allow SSL MITM without a court order. In fact there is no evidence currently that any widescale SSL MITMs are going on.
  Really? What do you call FISA?
  And the FISA court is a joke of a rubber stamp outfit for the government.
  
  Need some evidence.
  Actually you need some brains.
  
  Of course I do. But you would have to be absolutely ignorant of life in each country and the repercussions of open political speech in each to even begin making the comparison. The US has nothing even remotely comparable to the GFW.
  I don't give a shit what China has or doesn't.
  If my house is on fire, I'm not about to lecture the guy next door about fireplace safety.
31. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 07:58 · Score: 0
  
  Here are a few NEWS FLASH items for you as you seemed to have missed them:
  1) Most "communist" nations do not allow "freedom of religion".
  2) Most Chinese are not Christians.
  3) Just because you are religious it is not your right to peddle your religion to others, contrary to what you may think. Sure, the Chinese represent a lot of people to "sell" your religion to but that is not a right you have.
  If you dont want to be arrested, dont do things that are against the law of the nation you are in.
  China's five officially sanctioned religious organizations are the Buddhist Association of China, Chinese Taoist Association, Islamic Association of China, Three-Self Patriotic Movement and Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association.
  Are you "flogging" one of the state sanctioned religions?
  I find it odd you would not expect to be arrested for handing out religious material in a country that bans it?
32. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 08:07 · Score: 1
  
  What if I give you a stack of flyers (of my choosing) and you stand in front of your nations capital and hand them out?
  Since you clearly have "free speech" laws and can say whatever you want, you have nothing to fear right?
  People do this all the time. If you caused a disruption, it is possible you would be asked to leave.
  I witnessed this on a random street in China, where a man was handing out flyers in a public square. Police appeared, the man ran, all flyers were confiscated-- including the ones people were holding. That sort of thing simply does not happen in the US.
  
  Just because i handed you a stack of "hate propaganda"
  
  No such thing. See National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie
  
  Good thing the US has "separation of state and religion" rules for those of us who do not believe in "god".
  This is off topic and out of context. He was specifically asking why someone would go to a country like china and preach an illegal message. I provided the answer. The US's separation of church and state is not relevant because its not illegal in the US to preach such a message.
  
  Here is another one for you, go break some law and then tell them you report to a "higher authority" and see if they buy that one.
  Obviously they do not, and missionaries certainly go to prison for it. Are you arguing that it SHOULD be illegal?
33. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 08:20 · Score: 2
  
  1) China isnt communist, theyre authoritarian (possibly fascist). They stopped being communist after Mao died.
  2) 66 million are. Many many more practice falun gong. Im also
  3) Just to be clear that stance is incompatible with a belief in freedom of speech. Why are you so afraid of people making up their own minds? You have no problem peddling Mao Zedong worship in school.
  Its very interesting that english appears to be a second language, you posted as an AC, and you seem to have an intimate knowledge of the official names of the sanctioned Chinese churches which very few people I have talked to know.
  Any chance you're posting this from China? Perhaps part of the wangluò pínglùn yuán (50 Cent Army)?
34. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 08:25 · Score: 0
  
  Thats not actually true. I have an (american) friend who went to school in Shanghai before continuing studies in the US. I know a number of others who did as well.
35. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 08:36 · Score: 1
  
  Watching this kind of demoning from US is humourous and based on zero understanding how how things work.
  Watching the 50 Cent Army come out and defend Chinese repression of free speech is certainly interesting. You seem to think that the comments made here are without personal experience, like watching people get deported because they dared to speak something the government objects to. Do the people in Hong Kong right now also not understand how things work? What about Tianenmen Square?
  You remark on the supposed inefficiency of the American system, which has been successful in America and the UK for several hundred years. The western world has a strong economy, robust freedoms, and a government that the people have a say in. When an American military shoots civilians, the government is directly accountable to the people. When the Chinese government guns down demonstrators, nothing happens because the people have no say.
  
  In China you need to know your place.
  And the Communist Party is more than happy to teach it to you through hard labor, as well. Has Liu Xiaobo learned it yet?
  The US has its flaws, but I know that I have the freedom to speak out against the government's mistakes without being arrested. Chinese people have no such freedom; they cant even request a democratic vote. When Mao told the people,
  "let a hundred flowers bloom; let a hundred schools of thought contend"
  and people began to criticize the government's mistakes, none of them suspected that they would later be arrested with Mao remarking that he had "enticed the snakes from their caves." Is this what you consider progress, having a government that cannot be criticized? What if that government causes millions to starve during the Great Leap forward, or fires upon students in peaceful protest?
  One wonders whether you will be able to visit this page to reply, because of the forbidden words (democracy, vote, Tianenmen, Xiaobo) on it.
36. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 09:08 · Score: 0
  
  Posting AC because I moderated this thread -- I have a day job which provides health insurance for my family and am part owner of a small business with six other investors and one employee. The only reason I can even consider leaving my stable day job to devote more time to the business is because Obamacare assures that I can continue to get health insurance for my family at reasonable rates and regardless of whether we get a "preexisting condition" or not.
37. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 09:10 · Score: 2
  
  If my house is on fire, I'm not about to lecture the guy next door about fireplace safety.
  The context here is Gmail and China, and Chinese censorship at large. If you have specific gripes about the US government, this is probably the wrong topic for it. Getting mad at me because I am speaking on topic seems quite strange; you were better off going to a different article if you were not prepared to discuss the Chinese security context.
  Just to go over your points quite quickly,
  1) FISA courts have not as far as anyone knows allowed global MITM of SSL, nor (as far as anyone knows) does NSA even have the technological capacity to do so because they dont have the private keys of all US-based entities nor is anyone aware of a method to break 2048-bit RSA.
  2) KKK may be "monitored", but they are allowed to speak, demonstrate, organize, and so forth as long as they commit no actual crimes (arson etc). This is not the case in China.
  3) The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is reasonable to expect that the NSA is doing a lot of unauthorized spying based on recently disclosed evidence. It is NOT reasonable to automatically believe every crackpot theory about SSL MITM without proof. There is evidence of SSL MITM in very specific cases (ie, Lavabit). There is zero evidence for the kind of global SSL MITM that China enforces.
  4) You are veering off into tangents and getting mad at me for doing so. If ranting makes you feel better, by all means continue, but Im not going to entertain it any further. Based on the number of 50 cent army in the thread (counted 3 so far), Im half convinced you're one of them.
38. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 09:13 · Score: 0
  
  You wrote: "This is off topic and out of context."
  They wrote "We must obey God rather than men." so it is not off topic or out of context. I happen to disagree with this view which is more consistent with the constitution with its clear separation of state and religion laws.
  No such thing. See National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie [wikipedia.org]
  Great, you posted a link about "freedom of assembly" laws, as you said "off topic" since this is about freedom of speech laws.
  Right from the link you posted : "National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 U.S. 43 (1977) (also known as Smith v. Collin; sometimes referred to as the Skokie Affair), was a United States Supreme Court case dealing with freedom of assembly."
  Go stand in front of the white house with "hate speech" or "treason" material and see what happens.
  Unlike you, i will post a fact and refer you to "118 U.S. Code Ã 2385 - Advocating overthrow of Government".
  "
  Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereofÃ"
  Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
  "
  So, free but not so free that you can group together and discuss overthrowing the gvt unless you dont have any plans for the next 20 years?
39. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 09:21 · Score: 1
  
  The skokie case was specifically about "hate speech". Nazi demonstrators wanted to demonstrate in a mostly Jewish town -- including speech. The Supreme court ruled that they could.
  I also find it quite strange that I ask a question about whether missionaries deserve prison, and you respond with a question about treason. The question about missionaries stands, do you think missionaries deserve prison for simply discussing religion? Do students deserve death for simply asking for democracy?
  We're not talking about government overthrow here, we're talking about the right to discuss what one believes.
  It is very interesting also that your post contains many letters found on a pinyin keyboard, and posted AC. Where are you posting from, exactly?
40. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 09:29 · Score: 0
  
  Its very interesting that english appears to be a second language, you posted as an AC, and you seem to have an intimate knowledge of the official names of the sanctioned Chinese churches which very few people I have talked to know.
  Several things wrong with the statements you have made:
  - English is the only language i speak so you are pretty far off on your guess.
  - I agree with you on the "communism" thing which is why i put it in quotes but tell me what the "official" name of the government party in power is called?
  - 66 million are Christian, that means that around 1.3 billion are not?
  Any chance you're posting this from China? Perhaps part of the wangluÃf pÃfnglÃfn yuÃfn (50 Cent Army)?
  Interesting question, some say Slashdot is banned in china, some say it is not.
  No, i am not in China, i cant speak any form of chinese (mandarin or cantonese).
  "you seem to have an intimate knowledge of the official names of the sanctioned Chinese churches which very few people I have talked to know."
  You can do a few things about that:
  Try talking to people from China more often.
  Go visit china for more then a few days and actually see the place.
  When that fails there is always google or wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_China
  "China's five officially sanctioned religious organizations are the...."
  Alternatively there is always reverting to name calling and so you can state "i am a "shill" for the chinese gvt"
  because I:
  1) know some facts and details about China (the topic i am posting on).
  2) disagree with a lot of public opinion which is factually inaccurate.
41. Re:Hope it is blocked. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 10:09 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Try talking to people from China more often.
  I speak with them quite often, and my acquaintance with China is not casual. I would however be foolish to reveal the nature of that acquaintance publicly, and will not do so; you can either believe me, or not. However I have not known anyone to refer to the church as anything other than "the Three Self church"-- never by its full name, to the point where I had no clue that it had a fuller name.
  
  - I agree with you on the "communism" thing which is why i put it in quotes but tell me what the "official" name of the government party in power is called?
  Zimbabwe and North Korea both have "democratic" and/or "republic" in their name, as did the country run by the Khmer Rouge; they are anything but. Technically, China also has the word "republic" in its name, but its a bit of a stretch given that which party you vote for is pre-decided and local rulers (ie Hong Kong) are selected by the government.
  As to whether Slashdot is banned in China, I could find out pretty easily, but in any case im sure the 50 Cent Partyhas a special dispensation to bypass the GFW in order to bend opinion.
  I do hate to pull out the shill card, but there are a large number of anonymous posts in this thread where the author is both highly defensive of Chinese policy and highly critical of US policy, which is a strategy (changing the discussion, goalpost shifting) officially recommended for the 50 cent party. I keep seeing this same letter (Ã) in their posts, which occurs on the pinyin keyboard, and they use very strange english phrases ("flogging the religion") which I have never heard native speakers use.
  I would have to be naieve to assume that there are no Chinese shills here, and your attack on free speech in point 3 jives with the Chinese official stance that "some kinds of thought must not be tolerated".
42. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 10:53 · Score: 0
  
  I agree. I'd like to add that I also prefer the overt oppression of speech by the political right to the Leftist version where media and academia have covert agreements and everyone's left alone until they speak too loudly when suddenly there are a dozen reasons to denounce them.
43. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 10:59 · Score: 0
  
  Your mistake is in assume what the Chinese government does is in lieu of what the US government does, when in fact it is in addition to.
  1. China and US both do X (covert monitoring of dissidents with help from complicit private sector);
  2. China also does Y (for example, blocking Gmail) in addition to X;
  3. You point to Y and say "at least it's not as sneaky as X", ignoring, of course, the reality outlined in 1.
44. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 11:23 · Score: 0
  
  Fascinating...
  " I would however be foolish to reveal the nature of that acquaintance publicly,"
  So the fact you have Chinese friends is labelled "top secret 3" and you can only disclose "public 2" information on the internet?
  I know a lot of Chinese people, both from work and as personal friends, less "cloak and dagger" then yourself.
  "As to whether Slashdot is banned in China, I could find out pretty easily,"
  Last time i was in China (~4 years ago) it was not banned at the time, but that doesn't mean it could be today.
  "
  I do hate to pull out the shill card, but there are a large number of anonymous posts in this thread where the author is both highly defensive of Chinese policy and highly critical of US policy, which is a strategy (changing the discussion, goalpost shifting) officially recommended for the 50 cent party. I keep seeing this same letter (Ã) in their posts, which occurs on the pinyin keyboard, and they use very strange english phrases ("flogging the religion") which I have never heard native speakers use."
  I am sure in your "conspiracy theory" mind there are a lot of "Chinese shills" here and you have uncovered them. It is just you vs the gigantic Chinese army and you have deduced who is a shill and who is not. You should apply to the NSA/CIA/FBI.
  Alternate, how about this:
  1) a lot of people disagree with a lot of the policies the US gvt has.
  2) Regardless of what people post, China is an independent government and can form its own laws. If the US disagrees with them they are free to spread their propaganda as well. Since we (you and I) dont live in china for the most part these laws dont impact us but are fun to discuss none the less.
  3) forming an independent opinion is always a good thing.
  4) there is no "pinyin" keyboard. If you understood "pinyin" at all you would know it is the romanization of chinese words. I assume you are thinking of the "pinyin input" system? Any time i went to the internet cafe in china i was able to type without any issue on their "English" keyboards.
  5) 50 cent is a rapper, he has the great line "When the D's come we dump the diesel and battery acid. " It might also be some arm of the chinese gvt, i have no idea.
  6) I cant login from work (they block https traffic to a number of sites) hence it being posted anonymous.
  7) since you dont get the reference to "flogging" let me help.
  "flogging, whipping or lashing is the act of methodically beating the human body with special implements."
  It was done in the old days by religious people. Not really the best use of the words i guess, but the point is to beat religion into someone's head until they accept it.
  "and your attack on free speech in point 3 jives with the Chinese official stance that "some kinds of thought must not be tolerated"."
  This is also consistent with the US gvt as well, as i posted earlier: http://www.law.cornell.edu/usc...
  Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—
  Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
  Putting someone in jail for 20 years because they tried to organize an event to overthrow the government doesn't seem very "free" to me. Is this how you define "freedom"? Seems inconsistent with how the US was formed in the first place doesn't it?
  Sometimes the simple answer is the correct one.
45. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 13:28 · Score: 0
  
  The context here is Gmail and China, and Chinese censorship at large. If you have specific gripes about the US government, this is probably the wrong topic for it. Getting mad at me because I am speaking on topic seems quite strange; you were better off going to a different article if you were not prepared to discuss the Chinese security context.
  I have no problems discussing. In the broader context. Not the selective outrage some seems to want to steer the dialogue.
  
  1) FISA courts have not as far as anyone knows allowed global MITM of SSL, nor (as far as anyone knows) does NSA even have the technological capacity to do so because they dont have the private keys of all US-based entities nor is anyone aware of a method to break 2048-bit RSA.
  You have no qualms speculating about the self restraints exercised by the NSA, I similarly have none about the Chinese government.
  Now in the CIA 50 cent army school, did they misled you that the one and only way to eavesdrop is to attack the encryption?
  
  2) KKK may be "monitored", but they are allowed to speak, demonstrate, organize, and so forth as long as they commit no actual crimes (arson etc). This is not the case in China.
  Plese LordLimecat, I find your lack of reading comprehension disturbing.
  Please re-read my earlier post.
  
  3) The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is reasonable to expect that the NSA is doing a lot of unauthorized spying based on recently disclosed evidence. It is NOT reasonable to automatically believe every crackpot theory about SSL MITM without proof. There is evidence of SSL MITM in very specific cases (ie, Lavabit). There is zero evidence for the kind of global SSL MITM that China enforces.
  Funny you say this, you as the accuser, I actually haven't seen you present one shred of evidence.
  
  4) You are veering off into tangents and getting mad at me for doing so. If ranting makes you feel better, by all means continue, but Im not going to entertain it any further. Based on the number of 50 cent army in the thread (counted 3 so far), Im half convinced you're one of them.
  It all seems pretty relevant to me.
  You don't make it difficult to see that It's pretty obvious you're the American version of the 50 cent army...so why you mad when called out by your opposite number? Tit for tat I think they call it.
46. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 14:00 · Score: 0
  
  "Based on the number of 50 cent army in the thread (counted 3 so far), Im half convinced you're one of them."
  Because their opinion is different then yours they must be "50 cent army"?
  Do you HONESTLY believe the Chinese government commits resources to post on Slashdot?
  They put so much weight on a "news for nerds" internet site they waste precious resources (English speaking employees) on this nonsense?
  Propaganda is far more effective when you reach a larger audience (movies, radio, tv, etc) and most effective against your own people (convincing them of some goal you want).
  Ever read up on this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...
47. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 14:21 · Score: 0
  
  Lets call some of this out and see how true it rings?
  The western world has a strong economy, robust freedoms, and a government that the people have a say in. When an American military shoots civilians, the government is directly accountable to the people. When the Chinese government guns down demonstrators, nothing happens because the people have no say.
  1) http://www.brillig.com/debt_cl...
  Yes, 18 TRILLION in debt is clearly a sign of a robust economy.
  2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...
  SO when the USS Vincennes shot down a commercial jet and asked for an apology the US was forthcoming with one?
  Weird how the wiki article contradicts what you wrote:
  You said "the government is directly accountable to the people."
  they said:
  As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay on an ex gratia basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.
  So clearly they did it but refuse to admit it? Is that 'accountable'?
  3) Read the washington times review of the US (hint, it is not what you think) http://www.washingtontimes.com...
  "having a government that cannot be criticized? "
  how about you find some intellectuals from the 1950's who were "blacklisted" in the US for "un-american" ideas and ask them how they felt about having a government that cannot be criticized? That way you can hear it first-hand and in English.
  One wonders whether you will be able to visit this page to reply, because of the forbidden words (democracy, vote, Tianenmen, Xiaobo) on it.
  Here is an idea, perhaps they are not in china?
48. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 14:31 · Score: 1
  
  ... Suppression of free speech during the olympics? Definately not.
  ...
  Just because you presume something, does not make it true.
  Posting as AC for obvious reasons. I was an athlete during the games (from a western country). We had been told in no uncertain terms that many things were not permitted to be discussed with the media (or for that matter general public) and sanctions could be applied if they were.
49. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 14:33 · Score: 1
  
  And now that I hit submit, I realise that I should also add:
  These terms were not a standard part of the olympic agreements. Neither Athens or London (the ones either side of Beijing) had anything even remotely similar.
50. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Required+Snark · 2014-12-29 14:39 · Score: 1
  
  2) KKK may be "monitored", but they are allowed to speak, demonstrate, organize, and so forth as long as they commit no actual crimes (arson etc).
  
  In the US the KKK is really close to the government. They, and other right wing advocates of violence, get away with a lot of stuff that would end up in big trouble for non-right wingers.
  For example, the incoming House Whip, Steve Scalise, gave a well received speech to a white nationalist group in 2002
  
  (Reuters) - U.S. House Majority Whip Steve Scalise, a Louisiana Republican, gave a speech at a conference of white nationalists when he was a state lawmaker in 2002, the Washington Post reported on Monday, citing his spokeswoman.
  Spokeswoman Moira Bagley said Scalise, the No. 3 Republican in the House of Representatives, was not familiar with the ideology of the European-American Unity and Rights Organization, or EURO, when he attended the event in the New Orleans suburb of Metairie, the Washington Post reported.
  EURO was founded in 2000 by David Duke, a former leader of the Ku Klux Klan who served in the Louisiana House of Representatives and ran a high-profile race for governor of the state in 1991.
  
  Given the name of the group, and the participation of David Duke, his claim he was unaware of the white racist nature of the gathering are not credible.
  As for toleration of right wing threats of violence, there's an ongoing problem in Utah with people with guns threatening Bureau of Land Management employees
  
  (Reuters) - A pair of motorists in a pick-up truck brandished a firearm and flashed a threatening sign at a federal land management agent in Utah, officials said on Thursday, about a month after a widely-publicized armed standoff with a rancher.
  ...
  Crandall said a BLM employee was driving an agency vehicle on Interstate 15 near Nephi, about 90 miles south of Salt Lake City when two motorists whose faces were covered pulled alongside him and made an obscene gesture.
  The suspects pulled away but returned minutes later, flashing a gun and a hand-scrawled sign that read: "You need to die," Crandall said.
  She said the incident was reported to the Utah Highway Patrol but the BLM agent could not provide investigators with a license plate number because it appeared to be covered with duct tape.
  
  So imagine if some non-honkies in masks threatened a federal employee with guns. There would be a 100 person team from the FBI on the case immediately, and someone would be arrested shortly whether they were involved or not. Not many resources were spent trying to find the perps in this case. Since it's Utah, all that happened is the the BLM has removed insignia from their vehicles.
  So not all terrorists are created equal. It counts less if you are white and Christian.
  
  --
  Why is Snark Required?
51. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 20:54 · Score: 0
  
  If you text "anything" in the US the government gets a copy.
52. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 21:02 · Score: 0
  
  Talking about religion to a minor
  and
  Pretending to be a priest are quite different things.
  Good on the Chinese for not putting up with religious nonsense in their country.
53. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 21:09 · Score: 0
  
  Go to a street corner in the US and proclaim how great Muslims are, or ISIS or your glad about 9-11 etc.
  Just being black and shouting anything on a street corner in earshot of a cop you would likely be shot, probably in the back.
54. Re:Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 21:17 · Score: 0
  
  Slashdot is not banned in China as of this very second.
55. Re: Hope it is blocked. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 23:54 · Score: 0
  
  Totally not the same as having every US president swear on the bible?
Cutting off your nose to spite your face ... by BarbaraHudson · 2014-12-29 02:30 · Score: 1

"Imagine if Gmail users might not get through to Chinese clients. Many people outside China might be forced to switch away from Gmail."
China needs to keep up economic growth, or the people who have gotten used to being "middle class" over the last 15 years will not be happy. So, cutting off ways for small and medium-sized importers in other countries to get product info, quotes, arrange for shipping, etc ... not so good.
And of course, this will also hurt many external alibaba customers.
What next - forcing people to switch to China's dead Red Flag Linux, just to spite the west?

--
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
1. Re:Cutting off your nose to spite your face ... by NeutronCowboy · 2014-12-29 03:13 · Score: 1
  
  How is GMail necessary to the growth of the middle class? There's 1.3 billion people who can pick from any other email provider. Compared to creating an OS from scratch, creating and running an email service is trivial.
  
  --
  Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
2. Re:Cutting off your nose to spite your face ... by BarbaraHudson · 2014-12-29 03:23 · Score: 1
  
  How is GMail necessary to the growth of the middle class? There's 1.3 billion people who can pick from any other email provider. Compared to creating an OS from scratch, creating and running an email service is trivial.
  Please re-read " cutting off ways for small and medium-sized importers in other countries to get product info, quotes, arrange for shipping, etc ... not so good. And of course, this will also hurt many external alibaba customers".
  China's growth is predicated on trade. When you make it harder for the rest of the world to communicate with your small and medium-sized businesses, you hurt your domestic businesses, which impacts on overall growth. China's growth is already slowing, and this is the first time since 1999 that they failed to make the official growth targets.
  There are lots of small and medium-sized businesses that use a throwaway gmail account when making initial contact with chinese suppliers because as soon as you do, you will get a LOT of spam. I mean, A LOT. They'll try to sell you everything from tombstones to tractors.
  
  --
  "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
3. Re:Cutting off your nose to spite your face ... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 21:23 · Score: 0
  
  There are lots of small and medium-sized businesses that use a throwaway gmail account when making initial contact with chinese suppliers,
  There is absolutely nothing that has changed in regard to this. Chinese people can still send email to a gmail address, they just cant use on themselves, but they have lots of their own addresses to use it really doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.
Nooo? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:31 · Score: 0

Saturday? The reports are from Monday.
Old? by jbmartin6 · 2014-12-29 02:33 · Score: 1

Isn't this old hat? I was in China a few months ago and could not get to any of Google's services.

--
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
1. Re:Old? by ugen · 2014-12-29 02:39 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  I thought so too at first - China blocks access to any and all google services. But then I realized that the article (and title) are poorly worded. What China did (in addition to already blocking access to the actual google services) - is to block any email sent from/to anyone with a mailbox at gmail.com. That is to say - as a gmail.com user, you are no longer able to exchange emails with users of various email services based in China.
  That is, in fact, somewhat bigger news - they are breaking an intercommunication capability.
2. Re:Old? by loufoque · 2014-12-29 03:04 · Score: 1
  
  Does that affect users of the gmail SMTP server or people who use a @gmail.com address?
3. Re:Old? by jbmartin6 · 2014-12-29 04:40 · Score: 1
  
  I see, thanks for clearing that up, mods well deserved.
  
  --
  This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
4. Re:Old? by oji-sama · 2014-12-29 04:46 · Score: 1
  
  At least the first one, got a call a few days ago from a relative whose Gmail account in Thunderbird completely stopped working.
  
  --
  It is what it is.
5. Re:Old? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 05:21 · Score: 0
  
  Indeed, and this is going to be a serious pain in the ass for me. I've been sending my emails to my school in China via Gmail and if they can't get any more of them, that's going to be rather annoying to clear up. If I hadn't happened to see this posting, I would have had no idea that they were now being blocked completely.
  Fortunately, I've got Skype, so that should still work as a way of passing new contact information over there if need be, but it's a real pain in the meantime.
6. Re:Old? by Balthisar · 2014-12-29 05:43 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not sure SMTP is being blocked entirely. I can still send email between QQ and my Gmail and Google Apps hosted accounts. What's *new*, though, is that I can't access the IMAP servers without being on the VPN. Once the mail leaves Google, though, it's arriving at QQ, and once the mail leaves QQ, it ends up on Google's servers. I simply need a VPN to get to Google's servers.
  Yes, Google services (which are primarily web-based or rely on ports 80 and 443) have been mostly blocked for about a year, now, but IMAP has always worked until this weekend.
  As far as I can tell, Chinese email users and Gmail users can still communicate. But if you're in China, you need a VPN to send and receive Gmail and Google-hosted email. I'm not even sure if startpoint SMTP is affected, as Google may be checking for (blocked) POP or IMAP access before allowing SMTP access.
  
  --
  --Jim (me)
7. Re:Old? by crimson+tsunami · 2014-12-29 21:33 · Score: 1
  
  This is completely false.
  I have just recieved a test email from China to my @gmail.com address and it works no problem.
Your not going to block a sat connection... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:37 · Score: 0

just saying....
1. Re:Your not going to block a sat connection... by Chrisq · 2014-12-29 03:07 · Score: 1
  
  just saying....
  Are you sure about that?
VPN? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:41 · Score: 0

Couldn't you just use a VPN to get access to Gmail?
1. Re:VPN? by tepples · 2014-12-29 07:34 · Score: 1
  
  Not if China blocks the VPN's handshake, as it has been seen to do.
pump the brakes guys. by nimbius · 2014-12-29 02:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said she did not know anything about Gmail being blocked, adding that the government was committed to providing a good business environment for foreign investors.
So, unpopular opinion here but working with what basically exists as the worlds largest firewall may prove to be more difficult than a handful of PF rules. Its entirely possible Google services have accidentally been incorporated into a chain or policy they should not have, as they very likely exist in a complex one already. Or perhaps some recent holiday change on their part has triggered an automatic block. Either way its difficult to defend the idea that China intentionally did this when google gladly censors their search results and complies with all local regulations. They vicariously employ and support hundreds if not thousands of chinese workers, many underage and in poor labor conditions, to manufacture cellphones and laptops for people. Google remains a sterling partner of the chinese leadership in their quiet, tacit business participation in what for all intents and purposes amounts to a capitalist dictatorship with a communist logo.

--
Good people go to bed earlier.
1. Re:pump the brakes guys. by LordLimecat · 2014-12-29 04:24 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  China doesnt use a handful of pf rules, they use a comprehensive array of filtering, DPI, and firewalling techniques. They've been known to actively probe VPN services to determine whether they are allowable, implement real-time updated keyword content filtering, and forge RST packets for any "undesirable" content.
  They are also incredibly proactive about nullifying workarounds; ask the Tor guys how their efforts with e.g. obfsproxy and obfs2 went. Really good at circumventing the GFW for a year or so until it ended up 100% blocked just like stock OpenVPN.
  
  Either way its difficult to defend the idea that China intentionally did this
  No, its not, it fits 100% in with their existing (bad) relationship with google.
  
  when google gladly censors their search results and complies with all local regulations.
  Your information is about 5 years out of date. Ever since the Aurora hacks in 2010, Google has ceased all cooperation with the Chinese government on that front, and has ceased filtering on their end. They have in fact on a number of occasions worked to alert users when third party tampering has occurred, which has led to a number of confrontations with the Chinese gov't. Notably, in June of this year, China completely blocked Google prior to the TIanenmen Square anniversary.
  
  Google remains a sterling partner of the chinese leadership in their quiet, tacit business participation in what for all intents and purposes amounts to a capitalist dictatorship with a communist logo.
  Except for the part where they are the one major internet company NOT cooperating with them, while Microsoft and Yahoo continue to do so. Hope you dont use Skype over there.
2. Re:pump the brakes guys. by stephanruby · 2014-12-29 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  Either way its difficult to defend the idea that China intentionally did this when google gladly censors their search results and complies with all local regulations.
  They apparently stopped doing that a while ago.
  
  “We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn,” Google wrote in a lengthy blog post. “We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.”
3. Re:pump the brakes guys. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 16:25 · Score: 0
  
  Couldn't one of the non-blocked search engines "accidentally" change one of their webpage backgrounds to the GIF http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2807587/tiananmen-square-o.gif ?
4. Re:pump the brakes guys. by americanpossum · 2014-12-30 04:03 · Score: 2
  
  I'm an English teacher in China at the moment, so let me add some observations to your post. The Great Firewall is definitely noticable on any foreign website, as they load much slower than native Chinese websites whereas I didn't notice much difference between American websites, Canadian websites, and European websites when I was still in the U.S. OpenVPN connections are still viable. In fact, the only way that I can get onto the real Internet nowadays is thanks to the volunteers at VPN Gate and SpeedVPN on my phone. The Chinese government does a pretty good job playing Whack-a-Mole with the paid VPN providers, but there's always one that slips through the cracks sooner or later. More volunteers running VPN Gate servers would help tremendously. China's blocking, foreign policies, and pretty much anything else has gotten much worse since Xi Jinping became the top Chinese official. He has pretty much angered all of the neighboring countries and is building his political power in a way not seen since Deng Xiaoping back in the 80s. Most of the Chinese people I've met here are actually quite friendly and decent just like the Americans and Europeans back home, but the government is akin to what the U.S. government would be with an one-party system and total control of the media. In fact, since I've left the U.S., I'm noticing more and more parallels between the U.S. government after 9/11 and the Chinese government, which is not a good thing by any means of the imagination.
5. Re:pump the brakes guys. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 20:40 · Score: 0
  
  All telecommunication companies that support roaming with China participate in Chinese government censorship.
  True story. I needed a hospital nearby while roaming on my China sim, fired up Google maps for hospital and connection refused.. Had to go stand at a McDonald's which offered WiFi while I searched for a local hospital. Luckily it was only a fractured arm.
so it is secure, good recommendation China by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 02:51 · Score: 0

so according to China's review we should be using Gmail because it is secure.
Turn China into the blank on the map by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 03:09 · Score: 0

I could see Google simply eliminating every possible reference/access to red china and its chinese companies (across the world) which go through its servers.
They want to play games with business rules? then turnaround can be a bitch.
1. Re:Turn China into the blank on the map by dAzED1 · 2014-12-29 03:23 · Score: 1
  
  umm...so I guess you don't buy anything? Note I didn't give a specific something listed....you don't buy /anything/? Fermenters, cell phones, edamame, board games, yarn, whatever?
Maybe by barlevg · 2014-12-29 03:19 · Score: 1

Maybe they just REALLY don't like Inbox.
Google services have been blocked for years in Chi by blind+biker · 2014-12-29 03:25 · Score: 1

Google services, including Gmail, have been blocked for years, in China. Sure, a lot of Chinese use them with VPN, but Gmail being blocked in China is old news!
For some "strange" reason, Bing and Hotmail aren't blocked, though.

--
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
IMAP still working in Shenzhen by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 03:43 · Score: 0

I frequently check my gmail account via IMAP on my Android phone. imap.gmail.com and smtp.gmail.com are still working. I've seen this before. Some dingleberry out in the sticks can't access something, bitches about it, then some knucklehead in the media writes up a full report claiming a nationwide block when in fact it isn't nationwide and in some cases isn't a case of blocking but instead ends up being a temporary routing problem.
Time to divert investment away from China? by J+Story · 2014-12-29 04:55 · Score: 1

What if Apple were to move its manufacturing to India, for example? Do Apple fanatics really need to prop up a dictatorship (oligarchy) so they can have their latest "iWantThat"? The same goes for the other tech toys made in China. Lots of people are willing to fork over money for "fair trade" coffee, but don't think twice about where their latest gadget comes from.
1. Re:Time to divert investment away from China? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 11:18 · Score: 0
  
  What if Apple were to move its manufacturing to India, for example?
  Then Apple would ship only a dozen or so units a year. India has really shitty infrastructure, and electronics need a fancy thing called electricity that India is not able to provide without frequent interruptions. Nothing surprising, considering the country managed to not improve anything after the Brits left.
2. Re:Time to divert investment away from China? by Required+Snark · 2014-12-29 14:51 · Score: 1
  
  Apple is part of the US oligarchy. Just like European royalty in the 18th and 19th century, today's oligarchs often have more in common with each other then they do with the people of their own country. That's why nothing is likely to happen with Apple in China.
  If you're going to play the oligarch card, trying to cast primary blame on the peasants/consumers avoids the real issue. There is class warfare going on, but only one side knows it's a war. Right now the peasants are clueless, so they always loose.
  
  --
  Why is Snark Required?
Simple Solution by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 05:50 · Score: 0

if the USA had any balls, they would block all of China's internet traffic, until they remove the gmail block.
all email, skype, VOIP, etc.... just unplug the cat 5 to china for a few days and see what happens. Bet those commies would remove the block quickly.
Works fine for me by Striek · 2014-12-29 06:36 · Score: 0

I can sign in to GMail from a Tor exit node in Shanghai, China. (118.193.194.95)
My account activity details clearly show a login from China.
It may be blocked, but this block is clearly not as effective as is being reported. Take it with a grain of salt.

--
"Government is like fire; a handy servant, but a dangerous master." -- George Washington
Re:Google services have been blocked for years in by u38cg · 2014-12-29 07:23 · Score: 1

Reportedly, what is being blocked is actual emails from or to a gmail address, not the service. Odd move though.

--
[FUCK BETA]
China? by antdude · 2014-12-29 11:42 · Score: 1

I didn't even know China users could use Gmail. I always thought it was blocked.

--
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
The great FIREwall of China! by iq145 · 2015-01-02 12:50 · Score: 1

Oh well... their loss!