Slashdot Mirror


Cosmic Rays To Reveal the Melted Nuclear Fuel In Fukushima's Reactors

the_newsbeagle writes: Muons, produced when cosmic rays collide with molecules in the atmosphere, are streaming through your body as you read this. The particles pass through most matter unimpeded, however they can interact with heavy elements like uranium and plutonium. That's why engineers at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi power plant are using muon detectors to look for the melted nuclear fuel inside the plant's three melted-down reactors. By determining where muons are being diverted from their paths, the detectors create images of the blobs of fuel. That's necessary because nobody knows exactly where the radioactive gloop ended up during the meltdowns.

68 comments

  1. gloop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gloop?

    Gloop is an industry term.

    1. Re:gloop by PPH · · Score: 3, Funny

      Gloop is an element. TFS didn't say exactly which isotopic form of Gl they are looking for.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:gloop by necro81 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The industry term for the mixed, melted contents of a reactor core is "corium". It's a mix of fuel rod assemblies ( fuel and fission products, additives, moderators, salts, and cladding), fuel rods (zirconium), and containment vessel (stainless steel), all compounded with reactor water and whatever additives were in it. In a theoretical worst case, you get to add in some concrete from the floor of the reactor building, too.

      In short, about half the periodic table.

    3. Re:gloop by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      In short, about half the periodic table.

      Not the best part, though.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    4. Re:gloop by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Gloop?

      Actually "gloop" has almost all letters of the word "google". That was a hint as how to find out...

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    5. Re:gloop by k3vlar · · Score: 1

      Gloop is an industry term.
      Gloop isn't fair.
      Gloop is tough on stains.
      Gloop doesn't know right from wrong.
      Gloop tastes like gravy.
      Gloop almost made the periodic table.
      Gloop can't or won't.
      Gloop has a secret.
      Gloop speaks four languages.
      Gloop is low in fat.
      Gloop is a lover, not a fighter.
      Gloop wants to talk to you.
      Gloop stays the course.
      Gloop cares about the environment.
      Gloop is everywhere.

      --
      Unlike porn, which yada yada rimshot hey-ooh!
    6. Re:gloop by ihtoit · · Score: 3, Funny

      nope. Absolutely the worst, most vile, toxic and unpleasant half.

      The rest is made up of unicorn farts, smurf cum and angel titty.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    7. Re:gloop by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      I don't know, it could be worse.... There could have been sizeable amounts of elemental fluorine and chlorine too..... And other very nasty things...

    8. Re:gloop by Mr.CRC · · Score: 2

      Fluorine and chlorine are trivial to handle compared to high level radioactive isotopes.

      There are few things more unsettling than a substance where a dust sized speck can fry you within a few hours (if inhaled or otherwise ingested) or days (stuck on your exterior).

    9. Re:gloop by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      chlorine and fluorine are chemically active and highly corrosive. They will burn mucous membranes on contact as they react with water to form hydrochloric and hydrofluoric acids. Plutonium is very dense and a cumulative poison with similar bioreactivity to lead. Its radioactivity is a relatively minor issue unless ingested or inhaled, at which point it can cause damage to genetic material - any of which that survives can become malignant.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    10. Re:gloop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hydrochloric acid is something you will find in a high school chemistry lab. Chlorine gas is something you can have undergrads work with for a lab or summer/senior project. Hydrofluoric acid is something that scares even experienced chemists, although is surprisingly easy to get, and used rather carelessly in some industries (horror stories from chemists finding out how it is used at say car washes, by the drum full).

      Plutonium and uranium though, in any form that has been refined beyond geological quantities (i.e. not a piece of uranium ore, or someone doing study of say soil concentration) is a real bit to work with in any lab environment, as you have to carefully inventory where it all goes. There are plenty of chlorine and fluorine compounds that can just go down the sink or are not a big deal if some leaks happen in a fume hood, but if something similar happened with uranium or plutonium, you would be in big trouble. Heck, I knew someone who built a novel calibration source for spectroscopy and wanted to run it with some thorium compound, but it was determined that the inventory of the compound in the prototype was too sloppy to get approval.

  2. Muon images of the shadow of the moon by mbone · · Score: 5, Informative

    Muon shadowgraphs of the Moon, a signature of the Moon's cosmic ray shadow on the upper atmosphere, are a common way of testing neutrino detectors buried under a km or more of rock. (Muons from the atmosphere tend to be the major source of confusion for such detectors; that's why they frequently do best looking down, as muons can't go through 12,000 km of rock.)

    Oh, and archeologists have used muons to look through the Great Pyramid.

    1. Re:Muon images of the shadow of the moon by chmod+a+x+mojo · · Score: 1

      If I remember correctly a Japanese geologist also used Muons or some other high speed particle to map out the insides of a volcano, letting everyone see the vent plug and vent path in 3D.

      --
      To err is human; effective mayhem requires the root password!
    2. Re:Muon images of the shadow of the moon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm surprised they are not simply looking for the heat signature. The reaction is still thermally hot. FLIR or a simple IR thermal scan should reveal the location of the hotspots.

    3. Re:Muon images of the shadow of the moon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since pretty much all of the materials involved in the vessel and/or building are opaque to IR, a heat image would only show you the temperature of different places on the outside. Depending on the thermal conductivity of the stuff between the outside and the stuff of interest, you could have little to no position information on the outside from a heat map.

  3. We've been using muon detectors for over 40 years by tlambert · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We've been using muon detectors for over 40 years to detect nuclear-related activities in various countries, including reactor installation, stockpiling, bomb-building, and so on. One of the reasons for the ability to move MX missiles around underground was so that long term muon detector observation by the Soviets could not pinpoint the location of the missiles.

  4. Test it out at Chernobyl by danbert8 · · Score: 2

    I wonder if we can get some good images of the elephant feet that are all over that building...

    --
    Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    1. Re:Test it out at Chernobyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's only one elephant foot, where the melt poured down into the lower plenum.

      At this point the radioactivity has decreased enough that it wouldn't be a problem to just (quickly) stroll about and search. Not like the first expedition where the activity level a foot from the melt's surface was measured in Sieverts per second.

    2. Re:Test it out at Chernobyl by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      There's only one elephant foot that we have found... Stroll about and search, but I think even today 30 minutes in the room with it will get you a lifetime dose of radiation.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
  5. America's Dark Nuclear History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Whenever talk turns to Fukushima, I'm always surprised at how little is known of the dark side of America's nuclear history.

    Did you know the first meltdown in the U.S. was in Los Angeles? And the reactor had no containment.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_FCvbc0cNE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPk9kEaSyAY

    Did you know about the Santa Susana Field Laboratory and it's ten reactors? Four of which had nuclear accidents.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Susana_Field_Laboratory

    And this is only a very small part of the story. Be glad you are not raising a family in Canoga Park.

    1. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by ihtoit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Three words: Port Chicago Fire.

      I'm not at all convinced, from reading eyewitness reports, that that wasn't a nuclear pile going supercritical.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    2. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1944 was only two years after the first self-sustaining reaction; At that time nuclear reactors (all 4 or 6 of them that existed) were used to create plutonium for the Bomb. Why on earth would one be stationed onboard a ship? Especially a Liberty Ship, which were many things but not well-constructed?

      And if a reactor (not a nuke, a reactor) had self-immolated in the manner that occured at Port Chicago, launching several hundreds of tons of lethally radioactive fuel up as powder, it would have made Chernobyl look like a mildly unpleasant chili fart. 95-97% of the radioactivity at Chernobyl never went outside the walls of the RB. If the entire thing had gone up, not only that area but the entire Great Lakes area would presently be uninhabitable. And not 5uSv/hr pansy-uninhabitable, actually "you will die if you stay here for over a day" uninhabitable.

    3. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      Port Chicago is in California, nowhere near the Great Lakes. You'll find it, in fact, 35 miles East of San Francisco. Also, a nuclear pile is not confined as describing a power or breeder reactor, it's any device or reactor containing nuclear or fissile material. That could be a casket containing fuel rods and molten salt or it could be a boxcar containing a beryllium sphere or it could be a suitcase containing a battlefield warhead. Hell, it could describe a pallet of smoke alarms.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    4. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by khallow · · Score: 2

      Did you know the first meltdown in the U.S. was in Los Angeles?

      No, it was the Experimental Breeder Reactor 1 in Idaho, a bit over three and a half years earlier.

    5. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      nuclear pile going supercritical.

      Note that the word "supercritical" has a specific meaning when it comes to nuclear power - it means that fission rate is increasing. Nothing more.

      Just as "subcritical" means that fission rate is decreasing.

      And "critical" means that fission rate is non-zero and stable.

      Note also that the words have slightly different usages when it comes to nuclear weapons....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    6. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the seat of the explosion was officially one of a pair of rail boxcars, not a seagoing vessel.

    7. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A nuclear (or atomic pile) is specifically a reactor intending to generate heat, not just random piles of nuclear material. In particular, it tends to be even more specific to setups using graphite moderators (from the early examples that were literal piles of graphite blocks).

    8. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by basecastula+ · · Score: 1

      The city was Concord, CA.

    9. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      Concord is 6 miles to the South of Port Chicago.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    10. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      You're not the first to claim such madness. Maybe you'll finally be the first to find hard evidence, or perhaps disprove the small mountain of evidence (like having precisely zero radioactive debris) against your theory.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    11. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by ihtoit · · Score: 0

      riddle me this: why was all the debris buried along with a pile of unexploded ordnance before civilian authorities could even start investigating it?

      I'm not claiming conclusions here, I'm just saying that there are unanswered questions that raise the finger of suspicion that HAVE NOT BEEN DEBUNKED WITH EVIDENCE.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    12. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Probably because it was a catastrophe on a military base in the middle of an espionage-heavy war.

      The explosion would certainly have been powerful enough to breach containers holding classified information, which would then be scattered with the rest of the debris. To allow civilians in to investigate would also have opened unnecessary risk that enemy spies could find useful information and smuggle it back to their employers.

      The radioactive fallout from an actual nuclear disaster is particulate. Even if an attempt were made to bury the debris, there would be enough dust in the air that the whole area would still have detectable radiation levels decades later.

      The "unanswered questions" line is an old staple of conspiracy theories. Unfortunately, the reality is usually that the questions don't need to be asked, because their answers don't actually disprove the commonly-accepted theory.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    13. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by ihtoit · · Score: 0

      so why are the radiation levels at Hiroshima and Nagasaki equal to the world average terrestrial background? Those two places we KNOW from file footage and multiple eyewitness accounts to have been subjected to nuclear ground detonations which threw up stupendous amounts of fallout. Hiroshima now has a resident population of nearly 2 million.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    14. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      The bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were detonated in the air, so they produced very little radioactive fallout, which spread out over a very large area. In contrast, an explosion at ground-level like you're proposing happened at Port Chicago would pull debris from the ground into the fireball, so the resulting fallout dust would have been bigger and heavier, and created a more concentrated contamination in the local area. It would be similar to what was seen during the Chernobyl disaster, where an explosion threw debris into the air.

      Chernobyl is still radioactive today, and it's easily detectable even beyond the original blast range due to the spread of the fallout. If a nuclear bomb had detonated at Port Chicago, it would have been at ground level (unless you're suggesting an airstrike) and would have produced a large amount of dust. To have undetectable levels of radioactivity by the time civilians were looking at it (Vogel started his research in 1980), either there was a massive cleanup and decontamination effort that happened with nobody noticing, or the explosion simply wasn't nuclear.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    15. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      the two bombs weren't dropped to maximise radiation effects, they were dropped for maximal burst effects (and maximum casualties) based on the drop accuracy (off by 500 feet in any direction, meaning for optimal blast effect they had to be detonated 2-3 times the height of the offset - which is the default for any nuclear weapon not built for EMP yield). Little Boy detonated at less than 500m (~1800 feet) for maximal blast radius (3 miles, everything in the Mach cloud area below zero point out to a radius of 1400 yards was incinerated in the initial blast). The same effect would have been seen on a drop over a German city which was the endgame for deployment: they would have seen a lot more Dresdens if they'd carried on. Chernobyl wasn't a nuclear explosion. If it were, Ukraine would have been a nation of burned, blind and dying people. It simply isn't. Because the fissile material which leaked was ejected by steam pressure not a nuclear detonation. Those living within the initial contamination area were either directly exposed to the core (as workers) or were exposed to excreta from those workers (ie their families) after the fact, or caught a face full of radioactive steam. Which would kind of hurt. The resultant cloud made its way round Europe slightly raising background radiation levels for a few years, and now why don't we hear anything about Chernobyl on the news? Because the city has been sealed, the reactor bed is now in a concrete coffin and the remnants of the radiation victims are all but dead and certainly in no condition to breed. If that much radioactive material (it's a nuclear power plant with several tens of kilograms of fissile material in the reserve, not a warhead with a 10kg ball wrapped in C4) had actually detonated, Ukraine would be a deep hole and there would have been no survivors.

      Citations: Hachiya & Ors.: Hiroshima, UNICEF & IAEA: Chernobyl, Manhattan Project (Oppenheimer, Tuck, Fuchs, Penney among others): Blast and other effects of nuclear weapons

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    16. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Required+Snark · · Score: 2
      You can walk to the Port Chicago site; I've been there. It's a nice walk by the Suisin Bay on the Carquinez Straight between Martinez and Pittsburg. There is a national historical monument to the disaster, but it's not at the explosion location.

      The speculation that it was an atomic explosion is a paranoid fantasy. Given the technology of the time, a ground level explosion would have produced so much radioactive fallout that it would still be detectable today.

      Then there is the issue of the situation at the loading docks. This was the era of the racially segregated US military, and the majority of the sailors at the installation were African American sailors, with white officers. Most of the people killed were the black sailors. Afterwards, some of the men refused to resume work under such dangerous conditions, and were courts-martial for mutiny and jailed.

      Given the reality of a segregated Navy, it is inconceivable that something as important as an atomic weapon would be assigned to the Port Chicago facility. In the real world, the nuclear components of the bombs dropped on Japan were accompanied by scientists and technicians from Los Alamos for assembly on Tinian before the flight missions.

      While this training was taking place, the components of the first two atomic bombs were shipped to Tinian by various means. For the uranium bomb code-named "Little Boy", fissile components consisted of a cylindrical target and nine washer-like rings that made up the hollow cylinder projectile. When the bomb detonated, these would be brought together to create a cylindrical core. The uranium-235 projectile and bomb pre-assemblies (partly assembled bombs without the fissile components) left Hunters Point Naval Shipyard, California, on 16 July aboard the cruiser USS Indianapolis, arriving 26 July. The Little Boy pre-assemblies were designated L-1, L-2, L-3, L-4, L-5, L-6, L-7 and L-11. L-1, L-2, L-5 and L-6 were expended in test drops. L-6 was used in the Iwo Jima dress rehearsal on 29 July. This was repeated on 31 July, but this time L-6 was test dropped near Tinian by Enola Gay. L-11 was the assembly used for the Hiroshima bomb. On 26 July three C-54s of the 320th Troop Carrier Squadron left Kirtland Army Air Field, each with three of the uranium-235 target rings, and landed at North Field on 28 July.

      The components for the bomb code-named the Fat Man arrived by air the same day. The bomb's plutonium core (encased in its insertion capsule) and the beryllium-polonium initiator were transported from Kirtland to Tinian by C-54 in the custody of Project Alberta couriers. Three Fat Man high explosive pre-assemblies designated F31, F32, and F33 were picked up at Kirtland on 28 July by three B-29s, two from the 509th and one from the 216th AAF Base Unit, and transported to North Field, arriving 2 August. The B-29s were Luke the Spook and Laggin' Dragon of the 509th, and 42-65386, a phase 3 Silverplate of the 216th AAF Base Unit. F33 was expended during the final rehearsal on 8 August, and F31 was the bomb dropped on Nagasaki. F32 presumably would have been used for a third attack or its rehearsal.

      Assembled nuclear bombs were never shipped in a configuration where a nuclear explosion could occur. Claiming otherwise is ridiculous. It's the fantastic logic of a day dreaming 9 year old boy.

      So I suggest that you perform an experiment. Get a radiation detector and go to the site. Spend a day looking around. If the weather is nice you will have a wonderful time. And you will find no trace of radiation, or any sign of an explosion at all. Then you can take the radiation detector home and look for the radioactive mind control scorpions that the CIA has planted in your basement.

      --
      Why is Snark Required?
    17. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      yes, and there are two million people living in the city of Hiroshima TODAY. What the fuck is your TL;DR point??

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    18. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      Um, yes.

      My point was to illustrate how atmospheric nuclear fallout behaves in a ground burst vs. an air burst, which is quite well understood, thanks to the many tests conducted during the Cold War. Chernobyl was simply a convenient example of ground-based fallout. The Japan bombings are good examples of air-burst fallout, but that's irrelevant to the Port Chicago explosion.

      That brings us back to the original point: if the Port Chicago explosion had been a nuclear accident in any way, it would have had detectable fallout decades later, primarily because it would have been a ground burst. Since there's no fallout, there's no evidence of nuclear material in the blast, either as the source or even nearby ordnance.

      Similar explosions can be created with very large amounts of conventional explosives, which is exactly what the official story says happened, and the transport records provide evidence as to exactly how much materiel was present at the time of the incident.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    19. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by ihtoit · · Score: 0

      the official line maintains that the Salomon Brothers building fell at 4.58pm when in fact it was still standing behind a BBC reporter for an entire 23 minutes after that while she was on the air delivering a live report from the scene.

      I do not believe the official reports when they blatantly lie like that. I want to see the EVIDENCE.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    20. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      the official line maintains that the Salomon Brothers building fell at 4.58pm when in fact it was still standing behind a BBC reporter for an entire 23 minutes after that while she was on the air delivering a live report from the scene.

      A quick check shows that the official reports claim it remained standing for an entire 23 minutes after 4:58pm.

      I do not believe the official reports when they blatantly lie like that. I want to see the EVIDENCE.

      You have the evidence at your disposal. You can do the research to understand the entirety of the situation, and reach a valid conclusion. Instead, you've choose to ignore reality and ask for "evidence" that you refuse to understand.

      At least your world will always remain exciting.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    21. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by rochrist · · Score: 1

      There is an interesting and rather exhaustively detailed book covering ALL the nuclear accidents that have taken place around the world. It's rather amazing how offhanded they were about some of these things in the early days. http://www.amazon.com/Atomic-A...

    22. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by khallow · · Score: 1

      so why are the radiation levels at Hiroshima and Nagasaki equal to the world average terrestrial background?

      They are at similar levels, but they are not equal. There are plenty of trace elements that allow us to determine a nuclear explosion happened nearby.

      Second, it's worth noting that the detonation in question was really small for an atomic bomb (up to a bit over 1 kiloton). It took decades of work for the US to develop nukes in that range. A small nuclear detonation like that in 1944 would be a "fizzle", something that used up only a small part of the fissionable material. That would have spread the rest of the fissionable material, either plutonium or enriched uranium all over the place in far greater amounts than a proper nuclear detonation would.

    23. Re:America's Dark Nuclear History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you knew anything about it you'd have mentioned the sarcophagus saga... but no.

  6. You know... by jamiesan · · Score: 3, Funny

    You've got to remember that these are just simple sub-atomic particles.

    They are unstable. Common clay of the elements.

    You know... Muons

  7. 'Ended Up'.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would have thought the fuel would remain hot for years, if it escaped confinement it could keep moving 'China Syndrome' style for a looong time...

    1. Re:'Ended Up'.... by jklovanc · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not really.

      In reality, under a complete loss of coolant scenario, the fast erosion phase of the concrete basement lasts for about an hour and progresses into about one meter depth, then slows to several centimeters per hour, and stops completely when the corium melt cools below the decomposition temperature of concrete (about 1100 C). Complete melt-through can occur in several days, even through several meters of concrete; the corium then penetrates several meters into the underlying soil, spreads around, cools, and solidifies.

  8. Corium, not Gloop by random+coward · · Score: 1

    I thought the term of art was Corium

  9. Re:Now perhaps wider use against terrorists by shoor · · Score: 1

    I saw some documentary on TV not too long ago, that talked about using muon detectors to look for fissionable materials being smuggled for terrorist purposes hidden in transport containers.

    --
    In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice they're different. (Yogi Berra & A. Einstein)
  10. Good Application of Radon Transform by __aabppq7737 · · Score: 1

    Radon's transform is really useful here

  11. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That makes no sense. Muon transmission tomography requires you place the object you are scanning between the detector and the source (the atmosphere). It is very difficult to get any signal coming up from the ground, and unlike neutrinos, muons are eventually stopped by the ground. There would be no way to detect material someone is trying to hide, unless they let you put a detector right next to it. Similarly, muon scattering tomography, which is just over ten years old now and what is being used to map things like Fukushima, requires you to move a detector all around a target for a lot of cumulative time to get any detail. And nuclear decay does not produce muons, you need higher energies (e.g. cosmic rays or particle accelerator). So no amount of moving missiles around is needed, unless you keep using Soviet supplied pallets underneath your weapons.

    1. Re:What? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Muons are deflected by heavy materials like nuclear waste. The object your looking for does not need to be between the detector and the atmosphere (implied to be underneath the object). The object can and that would work in the sense that you would have a blank spot in the detector corresponding to where the waste is. Instead they're relying on the muons being deflected by the waste where detectors on the surface can pick up those muons and use the array of collects and deflected muons to triangulate where the waste is located.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    2. Re:What? by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Think "anomalously long backscatter times"/"anamalous diffusion of backscatter" for energetic cosmic rays. You can refine the specificity for the location utilizing synthetic aperture techniques, but you end up with very thin stripes for each pass over the scanned region. I *did* say "long term observation"...

      Note that the Fukushima detectors are a pretty long ways away from the reactor itself, as well as the containment vessel, compared to straight tomographic techniques used to examine cargo containers, say in Oakland.

      NB: These days, it's pretty obsolete as a technique, and we use neutrino tomography instead, but there are enough "dark spots" that it's not possible to cover everywhere with the technique. Interestingly, Vernor Vinge "outed" the neutrino tomography technique in his novel "The Peace War", although his details are a bit hand-wavy and wrong.

      Generally we don't have to worry about being shot down when we fly a constellation of high altitude aircraft over North Korea without their permissions in order to create a synthetic aperture large enough to be meaningful, so it's OK for filling in the dark spots there. You wouldn't want to run the same flights over Russia, even at 90,000 feet these days.

      PS: In case you missed it, there was a story the other day bemoaning the lack of noble gas detectors to detect by-products of fission plant operation, but they also wanted some better generalized climatological models (read: give us lots of money for supercomputer hardware to play with) in order to determine the origin, should noble gasses be detected with their new detectors.

    3. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, you can triangulate locations of dense material when you can move the detector all around a potential target, exactly as was said in the comment you replied to in regard to scattering based tomography. You don't need to cover all 4 pi steradians around it, but do need a lot of different angles and collection time, and it works better when you can get right behind it, because by far the most scattering is low angle scattering.

      But the parent comment about moving missiles around is complete BS. Scattering based muon tomography was not around 40 years ago. And even if so, you would not be able to distinguish a weapon sized lump of dense material without being practically in the same room. It is not something the Soviets could do from orbit or from their own soil when looking at American weapons.

    4. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Think "anomalously long backscatter times"/"anamalous diffusion of backscatter" for energetic cosmic rays.

      First off, the mean lifetime of relativistic muons seen in the atmosphere means they only travel an average distance of 600 m before decaying. Backscatter will shorten that even due to energy transferred to what it hit. Backscatter is already a lot weaker than small angle scattering. That greatly limits you signal you'll get at a plane or higher, by orders of magnitude compared to tomography done on the ground.

      Second, you'll get backscatter from a lot of other things, and will need extremely high resolution to distinguish something that small, at a large distance. If you had that type of resolution, astronomers would want to talk to you.

      You can refine the specificity for the location utilizing synthetic aperture techniques,

      Synthetic aperture is useless if you don't have timing and/or phase information. There is no way to get phase information with a muon, and you're not going to squeeze a muon source into a satellite or plane, so everything is illuminated by a constant influx of muons with no control of the source.

      neutrino tomography instead

      I'm actually quite close friends with people on a couple different neutrino detector experiments, and unless the government has some huge hidden and classified detector, this is BS. You can't locate antineutrinoes from large reactors now using the largest, most resolved detectors we have now. They can't even manage to do tomorgraphy of the Earth's core yet, and are working on building more detectors to start to get that kind of resolution. You're not going to get anything like that into a plane or satellite, so synthetic aperture is of no help (not that it would help any without timing information).

      It may show up in some fictional novel, but that is still what it is, fiction for some time. Sorry if this is just a case of you mis-remembering something you saw or read once, but despite using a lot of the right words, the picture you paint is just sci-fi, and it makes it look like either you, or the person you got the info from, are just cranks or knowledgeable trolls.

    5. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only travel an average distance of 600 m before decaying

      This is closer to the distance not taking into account the relativistic effect. Still, taking that into account and getting distances more like a couple kilometres still means an airplane is going to lose several factors of 2 or more signal just from decay, especially if it is acting like a spy plane and flying quite far instead of right over head.

  12. Re:We've been using muon detectors for over 40 yea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Underground mobile transport was to permit the usage of dummy silos, straining Soviet targeting and soaking up warheads.

  13. Re:Now perhaps wider use against terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That is an actual use, of CMT, unlike the fantasy of detecting deviations in muon flux through thousands of kilometers of dense, proton-rich material.

    Primer from LANL:
    http://www.lanl.gov/quarterly/q_spring03/muon_text.shtml

  14. Re:We've been using muon detectors for over 40 yea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is complete garbage, as pointed out by a few posts now. Yes, muons are starting to be used for monitoring for nuclear material, but that has to do with things like shipping containers and ships, where you can get up close or even send things through a portal/frame thing that measures all around it. But that is only a couple years old, and doesn't work over the distances needed for Soviets to tell where US missiles are.

  15. Mod parent up, mod down GP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mod this up, not the GP post which is flat out bullshit.

  16. Re:We've been using muon detectors for over 40 yea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Muon tomography has only been around for just over 40 years, when it was first used on the ground, in a stationary setup (not counting earlier uses where it only measured thickness, not full tomography). It was nowhere near the state of being a portable tech with the resolution need for nuclear related activity at a distance of kilomters, something that would be a struggle even today without massive resources.

  17. China Syndrome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the way to you via Pacific currents and transpiration and the food chain. The liquid magma will continue to melt toward the core of the earth unless it hits ground water and causes steam explosions, washes into the sea, creates a volcano, or steam volcano, or hits the core, volcano again. And you wondered what the dampening was for over Chernobyl.
    The last place it will ultimately be is within any buildings though it may still have part of it in the basement. Containment has completely failed and there is no plan or ability to deal with the problem. The ocean born plume including cesium plutonium is on it's way to an environment near you soon. There was also a recent steam explosion and building 4 so stay alert for elevated radiation readings.

    1. Re:China Syndrome by PPH · · Score: 1

      A 'China Syndrome' event is not possible in Japan.

      The gloop would come out somewhere around South America.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  18. Re:We've been using muon detectors for over 40 yea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's consider a few numbers. The incidence of muons is on the order of 100 per square meter. Let's assume a nuclear weapon has a dense core on the scale of a square meter (a huge over estimate), and that the muons get scattered uniformly (also a huge over estimate, as most are not backscattered). If you had a detector directly overhead, say 90,000 ft, and lets say the detector was 60 ft by 100 ft (i.e. a detector the length and width of the U2, much, much larger than what would actually fit inside a U2 or SR-71 plane), then you can work out the amount of scatter muons that would reach the detector would be about one per two days.

    The work at Fukushima is expecting to use 50 m^2 of detectors, so about a tenth the huge size used above but still on the large size for an airplane, and for it to take several days of continuous monitoring at a distance of ~ 20-40 m from the reactor, which happens to also be much bigger than a nuclear weapon.

    If you take away the orders of magnitude over estimates above, it would take months or years of continuous observing just to record muons from a weapon, to say nothing of how many you would need to distinguish it from any other dense material. At least in the Fukushima case, they are trying to distinguish an empty void from dense metal, not slightly different densities of metal.

  19. Re:We've been using muon detectors for over 40 yea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, forgot to add one more thing, that a highly relativistic muons from cosmic rays have relativistic factors on the order of 10, and so you might get it to travel about 4500 m before losing half due to decay. So at a distance of ~90,000 ft, even if assuming scattering doesn't lower energy of the muons (the paper about using the technique on the reactor, for example, mentions they tend to lose a lot of energy during scattering), you lose another factor of ~30 from just decay.

    So now, using much exaggerated conditions, you are expected to see one muon every couple months of continuous, direct, over head observation.

  20. Mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a great scene from "Blazing Saddles."