Will Every Xbox Be a Dev Kit?

jfruh writes There were a lot of rumored features of the Xbox One that vanished after public outcry — that it would need an always-on Internet connection, for instance. But another rumor from that era was that every Xbox One sold would include a dev kit that would allow anyone to create games — and it looks like this is one dream that might be coming true soon.

Comments

Reminds me of the old days

[Neo-Rio-101]

Many computers back in the 80s contained a dev kit. Typically some version of Microsoft BASIC.
Of course, we didn't call them game consoles. They were "microcomputers", but by and large they were widely used as games machines.
Commodore 64, I am looking at you. :)

Maybe we're coming full circle? If Microsoft provides an easy to use dev kit for casual users to create games, then we'll all be awash in thousands of games on that platform before we know it.

How many of those will be pong clones, snake clones, tron clones, reversi clones, boulderdash clones, and versions of mastermind ? :)

Re:Reminds me of the old days

[i.r.id10t]

Some of the games for the Odyssey2 console -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnavox_Odyssey%C2%B2 - had some (extremely) limited programmability to them. I remember making my own maps on the pac man clone, and programming in their flavor of basic which was different from the basic I knew from the TRS-80 series and hand no real way to save your programs

Re:Reminds me of the old days

[hitmark]

A big glaring difference between the C64 of old and the "dev kit" of today is that you have to flip "the switch".

With the C64 the command prompt was also the BASIC interpreter. You could enter the command to load other files into memory, and be on your merry way, or you could start entering BASIC code right there.

You see something similar with *nix shell script.

But with this "dev kit" you have to make the device enter a specific mode. And likely this mode will block you from accessing any of your gaming for the duration.

You have something similar on Chromebooks, where there is a "developer switch". Flipping that switch (from user to developer or back) will wipe the device clean.

If this was the case of the C64, it would have required that some Commodore rep came to your house, searched your belongings, confiscated any and all programs, and then set your C64 into "developer mode".

Re:Reminds me of the old days

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, you are showing your age, be careful with that.

It is all about the Angry Birds and Minecraft clones these days. Oh, and city-builder #3957: the return of the buildi.

Re:Reminds me of the old days

[bluefoxlucid]

Imagine if Microsoft gave Unity $10 per full Unity Pro license on all XBoxes. If fewer than 1 in 150 users actually used the dev kit, Unity would come out ahead in revenue versus their $1500 permanent license.

How could this be?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Are you seriously telling me that if you slightly de-cripple a general-purpose computer that it can be used as a general purpose computer?

Truly, I am living in the goddamn future now...

Re:How could this be?

[epyT-R]

I'll sure it'll be crippled.. Like XNA on the 360.

Re:How could this be?

[tepples]

Xbox 360's Xbox Live Indie Games environment and Windows Phone 7's third-party app environment were crippled to run only C#[1], probably because these platforms lacked a full MMU. The type-safe sandbox was the only security means that the things had, much as in the Singularity research operating system. That might also be part of why Windows Phone 7 devices cannot be upgraded to Windows Phone 8.

[1] The actual restriction was "verifiably type-safe IL that uses the libraries available in the .NET Compact Framework", but in practice that meant C#.

Re:How could this be?

[Anonymous Coward]

Was it restricted to C# or to any dotNet language, like Visual Basic, F#, etc?

Re:How could this be?

[Anonymous Coward]

It won't be. Microsoft have been letting developers know for the past eight or nine months about their indie developer program, where if you're approved, they will send you a copy of Visual Studio 2012 Professional and two Xbox One devkits - which are just re-flashed retail kits - for the grand total of $0. It makes sense that after about a year they'll have gotten around to letting you do the same thing by re-flashing your Xbox One yourself rather than shipping you hardware. Don't be paranoid.

They're talking about "Universal apps"

[Anonymous Coward]

The article says that retail kits might be used to develop "universal apps". That's pretty far from every Xbox One actually being a dev kit. AAAs aren't about to switch to retail kits, and this probably isn't even suitable for many indies. It'll be great if you develop cross-platform multimedia experiences though.

Re:So much for our lord and savior

[Anonymous Coward]

PS2. Linux.

Shit, have y'all forgotten already?

Apps...

[zarthrag]

Apps are not games. I get the sneaking feeling that this is just a ruse to get people excited about W10 development. If you're expecting to build your own A/AA/AAA title on XB1 - I'd continue holding your money/breath. This could easily be a repeat of XNA.

Personally, I have no intention of even *touching* an XB1 unless they open-up *native* development. (That means a full directx sdk, kinect, ...the works. None of this .NET second-class-partial access)

Re:Apps...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can develop a C++ native hand-eye coordination improvement program (not going to call it a "game", to avoid confusion (and definitely not going to say "app")), using either DirectX or XAML (or both) right now today. This is a so-called "universal" app.

Even a "universal" C# app is forced to use WinRT, which is NATIVE, not a .NET framework (though yes, C# still compiles to IL (for now)).

  You should probably read up on "universal" applications and WinRT. And wash your hands, I don't want your grimy fingerprints on the XB1 when you touch it.

 

Re:Apps...

[Anonymous Coward]

definitely not going to say "app"

> says "app"
> twice

it's a computer

[Barlo_Mung_42]

It will soon be running the same win 10 that my laptop and phone use. I had better be able to make my own games for it.

Installable devkits

[tepples]

Every PC running Windows, OS X, or GNU/Linux includes a rudimentary devkit comparable to the BASIC interpreter on early 1980s home microcomputers. It's called the JavaScript interpreter. Copy the following to a new text file called hello.html

<!DOCTYPE HTML><html><body><div id="out"></div><script>
document.getElementById('out').textContent = "Hello World";
</script></body></html>

And every general-purpose personal computer allows other developer tools to be installed, such as Visual Studio Express for Windows, Xcode for OS X, AIDE for Android, or the wealth of things you can apt-get install or yum install or emerge on GNU/Linux. (Did I miss anything?) The only publicly available devkits for major video game consoles have either been very, very limited (Dezaemon, RPG Maker, WarioWare DIY) or discontinued very, very quickly (PS2 Linux and PS3 Linux). The big draw of the OUYA console was its binary compatibility with Android, letting it use well-known tools such as Eclipse and Xamarin. Yet OUYA fizzled for some reason.

Re:Installable devkits

[drinkypoo]

The big draw of the OUYA console was its binary compatibility with Android, letting it use well-known tools such as Eclipse and Xamarin. Yet OUYA fizzled for some reason.

Way too many glitches. Saw a keyboard as a game controller, and the keyboard would become controller #1 when the game controller went to sleep. But without a keyboard, life is bad, because you need to type stuff all the time. They kept changing the dashboard without fixing the stuff that was wrong with it. Support for third party controllers was poor, even though that was the whole reason for their controller library to exist. Then google announced that they were going to come up with a gaming hub app and more support for gaming controllers and that was pretty much the end. People returned them in droves. Then Mad Catz came out with an overpriced console which also sucked, only less, and now it'll be a cold day in hell before another android console which costs more than a couple of bucks is in any video game stores.

Re:Installable devkits

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet OUYA fizzled for some reason.

For quite a few reasons, actually. But, of course, this stuff is always easier to see in retrospect.

Re:Installable devkits

[Lunix Nutcase]

Actually many people were pointing out its numerous issues before its release. Its fanbois just didn't want to believe them.

Re:Installable devkits

[Neo-Rio-101]

We both know what all you typed means.... but to the layperson who has no previous experience in computer programming, that explanation is way too much too soon.

it's great that there is choice, but a lot of newbies need handholding, focus, and detailed explanations.
Throw newbies in the deep end too soon and all you'll get is a situation analogous to a crying 4 year old who can't figure out why a university professor is angry at him for not understanding calculus.

I remember the Commodore "Introduction to BASIC" series. Sometimes a more focused and hand-holding approach is all that's needed to spark the person's interest and build their confidence so that they seek out more detailed information and harder challenges. ;)

Re:Installable devkits

[Blaskowicz]

What the fuck is a div? where did that document.this_function().that_stuff got declared?
How come that this html file works as well :
Hello World

Yea there are probably a lot of crappy tutorials on the internet, but there's no thick paper manual that came with the computer (CBM 64, Apple II, Amstrad CPC..) or a comprehensive help file integrated to the web browser (like in QBASIC) to explain all that crap in a friendly, up to date way.
All I'm seeing is a blank page experience and a hello world.. It's like saying anyone can be a dev and make little games, because there's notepad and the Windows Scripting Host.

Re:Installable devkits

[Mike Buddha]

Every PC running Windows, OS X, or GNU/Linux includes a rudimentary devkit comparable to the BASIC interpreter on early 1980s home microcomputers. It's called the JavaScript interpreter.

Every cell phone and tablet these days, as well.

Re:Installable devkits

[tepples]

Perhaps that's a symptom of another problem: the shift from printed manuals to manuals on the install media to manuals on the other side of the Internet.

Re:Installable devkits

[ArcadeMan]

Yet OUYA fizzled for some reason.

There's always the Uzebox. It may be a lot less powerful, but it's open source, anyone can code for it and anyone can build one at home at a very low cost.

Re:Installable devkits

[Lunix Nutcase]

The big draw of the OUYA console was its binary compatibility with Android, letting it use well-known tools such as Eclipse and Xamarin. Yet OUYA fizzled for some reason.

"For some reason"? Were you one of those blind fanbois? It's many issues were pointed out all over the place. Penny Arcade pointed out that it was just mostly hype and then all the Ouya fanbois across the Internet got butthurt. Acting as if the failure of Ouya was some freak accident that no one expected, is revisionist history.

Re:Installable devkits

[exomondo]

Yet OUYA fizzled for some reason.

Ouya fizzled because it was the answer to a question nobody asked. There are many platforms for independent development that already exist so yet another entry into the lowend was really not going to be successful. Being based on Android was in some ways advantageous but really that was the nail in its coffin, it was easy for developers to just develop an Android game and publish it independently, publish it to Google Play and publish it on the OUYA store so OUYA had no exclusivity, no reason to buy it. It was just a low-powered Android box tethered to your TV that had no "killer feature".

Re:Installable devkits

[tepples]

Ouya fizzled because it was the answer to a question nobody asked.

The question was "What platform for independent development can easily be connected to a TV?".

Re:Installable devkits

[exomondo]

The question was "What platform for independent development can easily be connected to a TV?".

Lots, including the PC. Now obviously the next question is why would you want to connect it to a TV, the answer would be that there are games (like local multiplayer ones with controller support) that people want to play that benefit from it.

Re:Installable devkits

[tepples]

Now obviously the next question is why would you want to connect [a gaming PC] to a TV, the answer would be that there are games (like local multiplayer ones with controller support) that people want to play that benefit from it.

A bunch of Slashdot users over the past several years have been repeatedly telling me that almost nobody is willing to do that. At first, it was because most TVs were CRT SDTVs that could not display PC video without an obscure scan converter box. But once HDMI took off, the big excuses repeated in past comments were that the family's PC has integrated graphics, or it's in a separate room from the TV, or just "it's too hard, and consoles are easy". Instead, I've been told that people interested in developing local multiplayer games are expected to spend years "paying their dues": 1. make single-player games for Windows or Android to build a portfolio, 2. move to another state or country to get a job at an incumbent studio to build verifiable industry experience, and only then 3. start a company.

Re:Installable devkits

[exomondo]

A bunch of Slashdot users over the past several years have been repeatedly telling me that almost nobody is willing to do that.

Of course nobody is willing to do that, there is no advantage or reason to do it. But it is extremely easy to do if some reason to do it came about, like a decent game that required it or was made more enjoyable by it.

You aren't going to get an audience without content.

Re:Installable devkits

[tepples]

You aren't going to get an audience without content.

I agree. But these naysayers have kept telling me that a PC game developer won't get an audience even with content because effectively all the audience for local multiplayer content are console users.

Re:Installable devkits

[exomondo]

I agree. But these naysayers have kept telling me that a PC game developer won't get an audience even with content because effectively all the audience for local multiplayer content are console users.

Well obviously you can't just put out the same experience that console users already get. Obviously it needs to be good content that people actually want, yet-another-local-multiplayer-game is not going to win anybody over because you can't disrupt the status quo with an unimaginative "me too" offering. Why buy title X and move my PC into the lounge when I can just play title Y on my console? Well you have to provide that reason.

This is the same reason Ouya failed, all they provided was a platform and were banging on about having things like TwitchTV and Minecraft and Android games like everybody else so why would anybody buy one? The idea was that developers would create the reason to buy one but instead developers just waited to see if anybody else invest first and so Ouya died.

Re: So much for our lord and savior

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is twofold:
1) Anything developed for PS2 was developed for PS2 and not cross platform the same way as windows 10.

2) It's easy to port PS2 games to linux. Wow. All 37 of the linux gamers in 2001 really appreciated me porting my game to Debian.

Universal Crapps

[Anonymous Coward]

So-called "universal apps" aren't really "universal". Instead, they bring dumbed-down HTML+JavaScript crapps to desktops and Xbones. Real programs won't be usable as a "universal app".

Re: Universal Crapps

[Anonymous Coward]

Except universal apps can clearly run in visual c# and visual c++
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/dn609832.aspx

Re:Universal Crapps

[Mike Buddha]

So-called "universal apps" aren't really "universal". Instead, they bring dumbed-down HTML+JavaScript crapps to desktops and Xbones. Real programs won't be usable as a "universal app".

Says one more maven who hasn't read the documentation yet...

Bringing your A game

[tepples]

Not every developer new to a particular platform expects to bring their A game from day one. Portal looked like a Nintendo 64 game before it got picked up by Valve, and Braid looked like a Multimedia Fusion abomination. Sometimes you need a prototype in which you can test gameplay concepts before you can bring skilled artists on board to provide A{1,3} graphical polish. And no, a desktop PC with a bunch of wired Xbox 360/One controllers isn't always the most practical choice, especially if it's a couch multiplayer game and your only PC is nowhere near your TV.

Re:Bringing your A game

[UnknownSoldier]

Yeah a lot people really don't understand the importance of a prototype.

Early screenshots of Path of Exile

Re: Definitely.

[Anonymous Coward]

What about Dennis Ritchie, Xerox Labs, or GNU?

Microsoft BASIC pre-1984

[tepples]

People were learning to program in Microsoft BASIC interpreters included before 1984. This means before Macintosh (the commercialization of ideas Apple bought from Xerox) and GNU existed. If you've ever keyed something like this into an 8-bit home computer, it was more likely than not in Applesoft on the Apple II or another Microsoft BASIC.

10 LET M$ = "Microsoft"
20 PRINT "Hello ";M$
30 GOTO 20

(In the line number era, BASIC string variable namess ended with $.)

Re:Microsoft BASIC pre-1984

[inasity_rules]

I am not entirely sure I would call making BASIC popular doing something for programming. It took me years to unlearn some of that rubbish...

Re: Microsoft BASIC pre-1984

[Anonymous Coward]

You must have some mental deficiency. I switched from BASIC to PASCAL in a matter of weeks and never needed to "unlearn" anything, just understand that it was a different environment. It does not take a genius: programming after all is a glorified hobby and there are no real "geniuses" there as there are in real science. Besides we're way past the age of tinkering, there is no need to squeeze code in a few kilobytes of RAM or hit the metal to get maximum performance. Computer technology is mature now, and programming is for chumps. I know nerds like to cling to fantasies of self-aggrandizement because they believe computers are "their thing" and that they are the key to the success they feel they have been denied, but that is not the case. Computer nerds are at best of average intelligence, and they come with a baggage of issues that make them lousy employees. I wouldn't hire anybody fitting the description, nor would anyone who values professionalism.

Every box IS a dev kit

[He Who Has No Name]

XB1 devkit functionality is in software, not hardware. And part of that is account access to parts of MS Corpnet that allow correct devkit functionality. We have to have the correct authorized user account and sandbox entered for devkit functions to work correctly.

Our devkits at MGS are stock retail kits that are pulled off the line and loaded with in house SDKs.

I have no idea what the plan is, if any, to roll that out widespread. I'm just a polygon slinger.

Talk about burying the lede..

[Mike Buddha]

Sheesh. I'm surprised the original poster didn't point out that Microsoft was found to have abused monopoly power with Internet Explorer in the 90's in Europe in the summary.

Microsoft Bob Returns

[Tablizer]

Grand Theft Auto - Microsoft Bob Edition

Or, Angry Bobs

Xbox One is still Always On, as originally stated

[Anonymous Coward]

They backpedaled like crazy.

But, if any of you have an Xbox One, try unplugging your ethernet, or turning off wireless and trying to even log in.

I submit that you can't. (Once you're logged in, games can be played offline... so technically it's true in that sense.)

Re: So much for our lord and savior

[Pi1grim]

Hei, cross platform dude. It's only cross platform in a sense that you can run phone apps on a TV and PC. Try to push anything more serious and you end up developing two apps for the price of one. Phone ecosystem in windows phone is nearly non-existant, same for tablets. But don't let that stop you from flashing the "the apps are cross platform now" banner in order to hide, that those platforms will require different approach to interface, energy saving, available power and memory management.

they're doing the same thing as Apple

[YesIAmAScript]

Why does anyone find it surprising?

If you register for a developer program you'll be able to (for a fee) compile and develop apps and sign them for your device. If you want others to be able to run them you'll submit them to MS' store and they'll approve them or not.

And yes, just like for iOS you'll be able to do development and testing on the device.

It's been done before by Apple and by MS (for Windows and Windows Phone). I'm not sure what is the shock that it's going to happen again.

They're going to be Windows apps and they'll likely run in the Xbox dashboard, not "beside it" like the disc-base games do. Snap-ins, etc.

It does have a dev kit, Project Spark

[Anonymous Coward]

http://welcome.projectspark.com/

"There were a lot of rumored features of the Xbox"

[jfbilodeau]

"There were a lot of rumored features of the Xbox One"

They were not rumors, but facts. Microsoft backpedaled on most of them. Short memory span or shill?

Re:So much for our lord and savior

[sosume]

Don't forget streaming games between xbox and pc, the feature that will finish the steambox. Steam really should create an Xbox client.

Microoptimization for microcontrollers

[tepples]

there is no need to squeeze code in a few kilobytes of RAM or hit the metal to get maximum performance.

That was true before MCU kits such as the Arduino became popular.

Re:Microoptimization for microcontrollers

[bluefoxlucid]

Oh man, you should see the bullshit it takes to hook up a YMF262 and YAC512 to an Arduino. It's not just programming the YMF, or even emulating the YAC512 interface (on both ends) so you can pass the audio stream through the ARM core and possibly out to a second Atmel or a DSP for processing or further synthesis (e.g. a SID or YM2612); to hook up any of these chips, you need multiple crystals, piles of capacitors, resistors, and then you need a strategy for matching clock on the interface pins.

I expect a hilarious amount of effort just to plan out how everything gets plugged together and gets its data across; and then a minimal amount of effort to create a SID/2A03/VC6 emulator on a separate hardware chip. I'd use a DSP for effects processing and SID/2A03/VC6 if I could; some of these things run at 1.2GHz with 64K of RAM. I doubt I'd have the IO to get that much data in/out of the main processor.

That and a text editor

[tepples]

Every PC running Windows, OS X, or GNU/Linux includes a rudimentary devkit [...] the JavaScript interpreter.

Every cell phone and tablet these days, as well.

True, but I failed to mention one thing: a text editor in which to create an HTML file in the first place. The mobile operating systems tend not to ship with one.

Re:That and a text editor

[jandrese]

Programming on a phone keyboard is a sure way to turn someone off from programming as well.

Re:That and a text editor

[tepples]

Does trying to program on a tablet with a Bluetooth keyboard have the same effect? I ask because some people are trying to use a tablet as a main computer.

Re:That and a text editor

[jandrese]

As long as it is a real keyboard you should be fine. It's pecking things out on an onscreen keyboard that is pure misery for programming. I know, because I've had to do it. Even shell scripts are terrible.

Re: Xbox One is still Always On, as originally sta

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to go into the settings of the xbone and set it to offline. Annoying to do but it was designed around being online all the time.

Console makers want experienced developers

[tepples]

Why does anyone find it surprising?

If you register for a developer program

It's surprising because traditionally, not everybody is even allowed to register for the developer program for a major video game console. Console makers have tended to want only established businesses composed of experienced developers, which means a new studio must start by making games for Windows or (since about 2009) Android. Prior to about 2012, Nintendo also rejected home-based family businesses for lack of a dedicated office. It wasn't quite as surprising when the iPhone introduced third-party applications in iOS 2 because Windows Mobile 6 phones had already let end users develop Windows CE applications.

Re:So much for our lord and savior

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is not Sony Entertainment.

Microsoft has a long history of programmer-friendly languages and IDEs.
Sony Entertainment has a long history of being anti-homebrew, at least in the past.

Missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if every xbox ends up being a dev kit - and that's definitely within the realm of the possible - it won't change a thing.
Making games is hard, really hard. Selling on an app-store is hard, really, really hard (ask yourself: how many apps have you bought?).

Re:Missing the point

[HappyDrgn]

Making games is hard, really hard. Selling on an app-store is hard, really, really hard (ask yourself: how many apps have you bought?).

At least a hundred, maybe more.

As someone who's made games... Making games is not hard, making a good game is time consuming, a little frustrating, occasionally hard and sometimes rewarding. Selling a good game on an app store is easy though.

.NET CF lacks a lot of libraries

[tepples]

Some .NET languages rely on libraries not available in the .NET Compact Framework, and XBLIG and WP7 use the .NET CF. For example, IronPython and other DLR languages do not work in XBLIG or WP7 because it relies on System.Reflection.Emit, which is omitted from .NET CF. Other languages, such as standard C++ in C++/CLI, cannot be compiled without the unsafe switch, and the policies in force on XBLIG and WP7 disallow all unsafe assemblies. Still others might work, but Microsoft would provide no technical support.

Beware

[Anonymous Coward]

Every PS4 was a dev kit, until Sony decided they didin't like it and went after Geohot.

A browser can be a text editor and dev environment

[Paul Fernhout]

Try this: http://rawgit.com/pdfernhout/P...

You can enter the below short JavaScript script in the text box, and then push the "View Below" button to create a new div for the window which will pop up the alert as part of displaying itself.

    <script>
    alert("hello");
    </script>

If you enter a Data ID for the text and a User ID for yourself (can be almost anything) and click "Store" you will store that text in the web browser's local storage.

I wrote that about a year ago. It works under Firefox on Mac OS 10.6. It may not work as well elsewhere; for example Firefox under Win7 didn't work for some reasons when I tried it yesterday (but probably a minor error to fix). I do not know how it will perform on most mobile systems, but again, in theory, it should work or otherwise be relatively easy to fix. Here is the source code with more information:
https://github.com/pdfernhout/...

You can also enter any HTML you want there, like to create buttons or divs or anything you want. Examples can be loaded by imported the text below into the editor using "Import and Merge" and then you can click "List all IDs" and select an item like "polar clock" to view it below (that example is a graphical clock, written by someone else using D3):
https://raw.githubusercontent....

A different approach to doing something like that if you are willing to host a NodeJS server somewhere is this other code I wrote:
https://github.com/pdfernhout/...

However, if you go that route, there are quite a few web services that support remote coding through the browser on hosted platforms. For example, "Cloud 9":
https://c9.io/