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Defending Privacy Doesn't Pay: Canadian Court Lets Copyright Troll Off the Hook

Posted by Soulskill on from the pennies-for-personal-data dept.

An anonymous reader writes: A Canadian court has issued its ruling on the costs (PDF) in the Voltage — TekSavvy case, a case involving the demand for the names and address of thousands of TekSavvy subscribers by Voltage on copyright infringement grounds. Last year, the court opened the door to TekSavvy disclosing the names and addresses, but also established new safeguards against copyright trolling in Canada. The court awarded only a fraction of the costs sought by TekSavvy, which sends a warning signal to ISPs that getting involved in these cases can lead to significant costs that won't be recouped. That is a bad message for privacy. So is the likely outcome for future cases (should they arise) with subscribers left with fewer notices and information from their ISP given the costs involved and the court's decision to not compensate for those costs.

52 comments

  1. Canada is the US 51st state by ikhider · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A vassal state really.

    --
    "SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
    1. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the current Conservative ruling party, that pretty much tries to do everything the US is doing, including everything that's bad, you are right.

    2. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We are worse than the US I believe, we combine the worst aspects of laissez-faire capitalism with the high taxes of a socialist state, but with the benefits of neither.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    3. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are worse than the US I believe, we combine the worst aspects of laissez-faire capitalism with the high taxes of a socialist state, but with the benefits of neither.

      Canada laissez-faire capitalism... you must be on crack

    4. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by HiThereImBob · · Score: 1

      We are worse than the US I believe, we combine the worst aspects of laissez-faire capitalism with the high taxes of a socialist state, but with the benefits of neither.

      The difference is that Canada is largely harmless to the outside world. Sure your government screws over their own people regularly, but the US screws over / spies on the entire world.

    5. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but with the benefits of neither.

      You have a healthcare system that doesn't routinely bankrupt people and a banking system that did not implode.

    6. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by ckatko · · Score: 1

      ... Except having a working healthcare system and not having to worrying about your money all going to fueling wars in the middle east and funding an industrial war complex.

    7. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      You don't live here...

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    8. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by Wootery · · Score: 1

      This article says Canada's healthcare is only slightly better than the USA's, but scores them much better on 'Cost-related problems'.

      Surprised to see Australia score so badly on Cost-Related Problems.

    9. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the advantages of Canada is that you are free to leave (unlike some countries).

      If you are unhappy with Canada, apply for citizenship elsewhere.

    10. Re: Canada is the US 51st state by MichaelMacDonald · · Score: 1

      Well, the conservative party here is pretty much built on US propaganda, so much of it is US influence in itself. Pretty upsetting.

    11. Re: Canada is the US 51st state by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Good news. Harper is jumping on the 'people need guns to protect themselves' bandwagon for the next election.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    12. Re:Canada is the US 51st state by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Harper's working on it, trying to figure out how to buy a bunch of those F-35's. And more boats and subs. But less funding for healthcare for veterans.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  2. So many stories about this by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

    Will there every be a tipping point where the public reacts negatively enough to actually do anything about it? According to all the trends I see just the opposite will happen.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:So many stories about this by ikhider · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Canadians are a complacent bunch. They will lay down for almost anything.

      --
      "SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
    2. Re:So many stories about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Really I am not so sure. Look how quick Ferguson and other protests have gotten ugly. Its only a tiny step from there to storming the Bastille.

      Occupy kind of fizzled, but for the most part the #blacklives matter people are the same group. I am going to a great deal of heat for this suggestion (so going A/C): I for one very much doubt there is as much racism in policing as there is class-ism. We see it racism because a for historical reasons blacks make up disproportionately the poor urban population. I don't think police pick on this population because they are black but more because they belong to an economic class that isn't likely to push back usually. They are not going to hire a lawyer and file suit against the city (they haven't the means), they don't know their rights in many cased (lack of educational opportunity) etc. Blackness in certain regions just serves as a proxy for telegraphing belonging to this class. In the 50's or 60's a black person could roll up in a nice car dressed to the nines and still expect the local constabulary to hassle them. That isn't so likely today, unless they are mistaken for a pimp.

      So there is already pretty oppressive class warfare going on in this country. The angry white male sterotype comes from the same place. The behavior has to do with the perception they don't have the opportunities they once did, and about that they are correct the chance at a good life putting in 40hrs a week at the plant and retiring after 30 years are gone. The powers that be misdirect their anger at this at various racial groups and policy strawmen. That occupy happened at all though show the farce is getting thread bare in places. The shardade which has been in place since the late 70's is breaking down.

      Which is in turn pushing the spying and big brother behavior. The powers are scared. A few good rabble rousers could ignite something they can't control anymore. Hence they spying on everyone and the militarization of police.

    3. Re:So many stories about this by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Whaddya mean? The same bullshit is happening all over the globe. People everywhere are very conservative and stand by the ruling authorities. The chatter against it is amounts to nothing at election time.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    4. Re:So many stories about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canadians are a complacent bunch. They will lay down for almost anything.

      Under Bill C-51 if the People dare challenge the Government then those involved will be labelled terrorists and subject to increased surveillance. Reminds me of the people waiting in line to place an order with the Soup Nazi. You asked a question? No soup for you!

    5. Re:So many stories about this by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      Its only a tiny step from there to storming the Bastille.

      Yeah, do you ever check out the replacements after that shit happens? The cycle just repeats. Next thing you know, you're marching to Russia, barefoot, in winter. I think we can do without that kind of thing.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    6. Re:So many stories about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Canadians are a complacent bunch. They will lay down for almost anything.

      Unlike Americans, who have been in armed revolt over this kind of thing for the past decade.

    7. Re:So many stories about this by Minwee · · Score: 0

      I'm afraid that you have just Soup Godwinned this entire conversation.

    8. Re:So many stories about this by Livius · · Score: 1

      Some countries are forced to capitulate to the Americans and their corporations out of tactical necessity. Weaklings like Mulroney and Harper *like* being vassals.

    9. Re:So many stories about this by Adambomb · · Score: 2

      That's why they're called revolutions.
      ---Terry Pratchett, Night Watch

      --
      Ice Cream has no bones.
    10. Re:So many stories about this by cavreader · · Score: 1

      And where does personal responsibility fit into your narrative? It's not the government or the nebulous "powers" causing the bulk of the problems in society it is the choices individuals make that determines their quality of life. Storming the barricades will not solve any problems it would only result in a new set of problems that are much worse. The use of outrageous hyperbole, lies of omission, and anecdotal evidence has also contributed to the problems we face today.

    11. Re:So many stories about this by ultranova · · Score: 2

      Some countries are forced to capitulate to the Americans and their corporations out of tactical necessity. Weaklings like Mulroney and Harper *like* being vassals.

      Every human being who has power is a vassal to whatever grants them that power. Mulroney and Harper are no different than US senators in that respect. In a democracy the Powers That Be are ideally interested in the wellbeing of their citizens, and instruct their vassals accordingly; but even in the most seemingly powerful dictator is merely riding the tiger, and will be cast aside and replaced - and likely devoured - if he ever gets fancy ideas about actually being in charge. Just look at what happened with Gorbachev for a good example.

      Human society is a superorganism, a living thing in its own right. Human beings don't rule it. They can, at the most, hope to be sufficiently trusted agents to be allowed some freedom in how they act on its behalf. But even if you find a new political or cultural movement or something, and even if it's based on your personal convictions, once institutionalized the power rests in the movement and will wield you, not the other way around. Heck, even if you fund everything from your personal property, you're still only allowed to keep it as long as you conform to economic forces.

      But that's a deal a lot of people are willing to make, either due to weakness or having some cause they consider worth the cost. But I wonder how many of them actually realized this is the trade they're making, rather than entertaining delusions about bending power to their own will rather than being its tools.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    12. Re:So many stories about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the american who's civil rights have been slowly eroded since the 1920's.

      Warrentless wiretappings - yeah, you accepted those
      Wholesale spying on US citizens which is a violation of US laws - check
      TSA groping in the name of "safety". Some of which could be considered "child porn" in other nations (whole body scans of children by a non-medical professional).
      Taxation without representation - Taxing US citizens who have not lived in the US.
      Constitutional rights suspended in the time of "war"... which the US seems to always be in a permanent state..

      I could go on... But please let us know when you plan to stand up for your rights....

    13. Re:So many stories about this by ultranova · · Score: 1

      And where does personal responsibility fit into your narrative? It's not the government or the nebulous "powers" causing the bulk of the problems in society it is the choices individuals make that determines their quality of life.

      Your individual choices determine - or at least influence - the particular role you play. What roles and in what proportion are available is determined by the Powers That Be.

      It's like a game of musical chairs: sure, who gets the chair and who doesn't is determined by the player's personal qualities, but that someone was bound to be left without is determined by the nature of the game itself, as are the consequences.

      Storming the barricades will not solve any problems it would only result in a new set of problems that are much worse.

      Much worse for whom? The increasingly small set of "winners"? Where's their personal responsibility for the fate their own behaviour is bringing ever closer?

      Revolutions occur when enough people have nothing to lose but their chains. Whether they actually solve anything depends on whether these people blame it all on the current "elites" of society or see beyond that surface to the nature of the game itself - the "nebulous powers" you mentioned. Replacing one king with another won't solve anything, but replacing absolute monarchy with constitutional democracy does.

      The use of outrageous hyperbole, lies of omission, and anecdotal evidence has also contributed to the problems we face today.

      Insofar as these have all been used to blame social problems on their victims, yes. Time will tell whether those who excuse their selfishness with such deception can bear to put it aside while there's still time to save the nation and themselves.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  3. Bad message... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for piracy

  4. Getting sued costs money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who would have thought? If anything, this establishes that you could, as a matter of precedent, bankrupt someone through sheer weight of legal proceedings in as many jurisdictions as possible.

    1. Re:Getting sued costs money by Guspaz · · Score: 4, Informative

      TekSavvy didn't get sued. They made the mistake of trying to protect their customers' privacy, and the court decided that they should not be compensated for the costs of doing that. They never actually objected to the subpoena for customer information, they just insisted on privacy safeguards and advanced notification of customers and ensuring accuracy of the list of people they would be forced to reveal the information of and such things.

      Turns out that doing the right thing doesn't pay.

    2. Re:Getting sued costs money by i_ate_god · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it might if it draws more customers to TekSavvy.

      Americans have to understand that Canadians actually more than one or two ISPs to choose from in all major cities. Granted, most lease their infrastructure from the big players (Bell, Videotron, Shaw, Rogers, and I believe Cogeco), but those smaller ISPs still compete for customers.

      If TekSavvy turns around and advertises the fact that they are an ISP willing to standup for their customers that would work well in their favour I'd imagine.

      --
      I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
    3. Re:Getting sued costs money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Turns out that doing the right thing doesn't pay.

      Not directly, but it's actions like this that convince me I made the right choice for my ISP.

    4. Re:Getting sued costs money by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      they just insisted on privacy safeguards and advanced notification of customers and ensuring accuracy of the list of people they would be forced to reveal the information of

      That's crazy talk. Big content companies should be able to get all of the personal information of anyone they want based on the flimsiest allegation of copyright infringement!

      Content company dream scenario:

      Content company: "We think these people downloaded something at some point."
      ISP: "Here are their names, dates of birth, address, SSN, bank account information, credit card information, and employer name."

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    5. Re:Getting sued costs money by rhazz · · Score: 2

      +1 this. I came for the increased bandwidth and lower costs, I stay for the sense of morality. They recently increased my broadband plan pricing by about 12%; I didn't even bat an eyelash - still much cheaper than the major telcos.

    6. Re:Getting sued costs money by Minwee · · Score: 1

      Content company: "We think these people downloaded something at some point."

      ISP: They're in the back room. Go nuts.

    7. Re:Getting sued costs money by sribe · · Score: 1

      Americans have to understand that Canadians actually more than one or two ISPs to choose from in all major cities. Granted, most lease their infrastructure from the big players (Bell, Videotron, Shaw, Rogers, and I believe Cogeco), but those smaller ISPs still compete for customers.

      Sigh. It used to be somewhat like that in the US. Before the big players bought themselves some deregulation.

    8. Re:Getting sued costs money by Maow · · Score: 1

      it might if it draws more customers to TekSavvy.

      Well, they're getting a new customer for their DSL and TekTalk services next week.

      To be honest, we're switching my Mom to them not because of this decision but because I'm a satisfied customer.

      But the timing is excellent.

      Also, during March, TekSavvy is waiving the $50 activation fee on DSL, so another excellent reason to sign up now.

      Tell 'em CID135285 sent you - I then get a diminutive but helpful $1 / month off my bill for each referral.

      If TekSavvy turns around and advertises the fact that they are an ISP willing to standup for their customers that would work well in their favour I'd imagine.

      As much as I despise advertising, I do wish TekSavvy got the word out more about themselves. No one here in BC seems to have heard of them.

      I seem to recall a bus stop ad one time, and I don't have TV or radio, so I may miss their adverts, but they need to get their name out there better and not just with the "Tech Savvy" folks who might want to "pirate" content, but with everyone.

    9. Re:Getting sued costs money by dk20 · · Score: 1

      I was a customer before this whole thing unfolded... and this has convinced me to support them with my business.

      They could have just handed over everything, but they chose to challenge things and act in their customers best interests.

  5. Teksavvy privacy by phorm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A lot of people *CHOOSE* Teksavvy because they're known to support privacy, and offer better customer service than competitors (up to a point, they're still subject to the same shitty service from the line providers). When I was in eastern Canada I chose them for those reasons as well.

    Maybe it costs to take the trolls to court, but what price-tag do you put on your reputation?

    1. Re:Teksavvy privacy by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      It depends on the company, I suppose. Lenovo sold theirs out for a rather inconsequential amount.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:Teksavvy privacy by phorm · · Score: 1

      That's actually a good example of it. Many of the non-technical people might not know about that, but *lots* of technical people (like myself) do, and lots of those non-technical people ask others (like myself) what to look for in laptops. I used to recommend Lenovo or Asus, now I'll just recommend Asus.

    3. Re:Teksavvy privacy by boristdog · · Score: 1

      I'd hand 'em a table of hashed user names, and let them sort it out.
      "That's how it is in our DB, man. We just encrypt what the user enters and compare."

    4. Re:Teksavvy privacy by ckatko · · Score: 1

      They likely picked up far more revenue in new customers than they ever lost to the court. Real integrity sells like hotcakes because it almost never exists.

    5. Re:Teksavvy privacy by NoKaOi · · Score: 2

      A lot of people *CHOOSE*

      Canadians get to choose? Here is Soviet USA, ISPs choose YOU!

  6. For everyone who didn't read the decision by debrain · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. TekSavvy did receive costs.

    123. In sum, I am satisfied that TekSavvy has proven a total of $21,557.50 as its legal costs, administrative costs, and disbursements of abiding with the Order.

    2. Those costs were not as much as demanded by TekSavvy.

    129. ... Rather, no costs of the assessment will be awarded because neither party should be rewarded for its conduct: TekSavvy, without justification, has greatly exaggerated its claim, while Voltage has unreasonably sought to trivialize it based on unreliable and largely irrelevant evidence.

    For details about the costs that were asked and awarded and the reasoning for such, have a look at para. 113 and following. e.g.

    119. Under this heading, TekSavvy seeks to recover the sum of $81,524.12 for expenses incurred in communicating with affected and non-affected subscribers and the public; creating an online portal tool for the use of subscribers; and responding to a higher volume of inquiries and complaints ... These tasks, are ... TekSavvyâ(TM)s costs of marketing, promotion, and customer relations, which I consider to be TekSavvyâ(TM)s costs of doing business. Consequently, I disallow these costs.

    Whether one thinks this is being "let off the hook" is up to the reader, and also irrelevant to the decision. This is a comprehensive, precedent-setting, non-trivial decision accounting for a multitude of legal and factual variables. I, for one, find it consistent with the tone and spirit of the prior decision, largely agreeable, in this case.

    1. Re:For everyone who didn't read the decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA??! You do know you're on Slashdot, right?

    2. Re:For everyone who didn't read the decision by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      The judge may have erred by solely looking at the Federal Court Rules (rule 400 in particular) when determining Teksavvy's obligation to notify customers. They have an obligation to notify under PIPEDA which the judge did not account for. The bulk of the $350,000 Teksavvy was requesting was for council - the judge may have also erred here. In the first hearing the judge stated that costs would be addressed at a later date and punted the issue. When costs were finally addressed by the current judge they said "it's too late to address those particular costs". ie: the problem was procedural not whether or not Teksavvy deserved to have the costs reimbursed. There were also some costs which TSI has to prove before they can be paid for them.

      Likely what is going to happen is that TSI will appeal the ruling and get another ~$150,000 or so of the $350,000 requested (somewhere around the $180,000-$220,000 range including the $22k already ordered). The 'tone and spirit" of the previous case you linked is one thing but there's also the costs awarded every time the police request an IP correlation for a criminal case. Those cost awards are in the $100-$150 per IP range... this was $11 per IP. Not exactly consistent with existing precedent.

    3. Re:For everyone who didn't read the decision by tomhath · · Score: 1

      The bulk of the $350,000 Teksavvy was requesting was for council

      But there was no need for council, they chose to fight the Order. Which is why the request was denied.

    4. Re:For everyone who didn't read the decision by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      The bulk of the $350,000 Teksavvy was requesting was for council

      But there was no need for council, they chose to fight the Order. Which is why the request was denied.

      No they didn't fight anything. They simply told Voltage, if you want our customer data, get a court order. They remained neutral during the hearings while CIPPIC submitted a "friend of the court" submission about some of the issues with Voltage's case. At this point no one has fought anything.

      If you read the decision the court said there were 2 separate issues. First, compliance with the order which the judge valued at $22k. Second was participation in the hearings which the judge ruled as being distinct from compliance with the order. One of the major problems though is that one of the council for TSI was hired as an expert in privacy law - it's hard to separate the issues of the case and issues of compliance as it relates to ensuring TSI properly protected its customers privacy to the standard set by PIPEDA. Because the judge failed to account for any issues relating to PIPEDA with regards to the compliance with the order there's a $120,000 in privacy related costs that may be recoverable on appeal.

  7. Yes, what's the problem? by tomhath · · Score: 1

    They wanted another few hundred thousand for their legal expenses incurred as part of resisting the Order. The court correctly decided that those costs had nothing to do with the reimbursement they are entitled to for work done to comply.

    In other words, nothing to see here...

    1. Re:Yes, what's the problem? by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Not exactly. On several issues, yes, like network hardening and PR/customer service issues. Those costs were minimal compared to the legal fees which the judge declined based on timing/procedure. They'll get the bulk of the later on appeal.

  8. Legal Documents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First time reading actual legal documents regarding a case like this:

    https://cippic.ca/en/Voltage

    specifically
    https://cippic.ca/sites/default/files/file-sharing-lawsuits/Voltage_Costs_Record-Memo_of_Fact_and_Law.pdf

    The language is quite hilarious, and quite biased; not surprisingly. Voltage is trying to make it seem like TekSavvy is egregious. Their expert opined the effort takes little time and such programs are readily available. I find the casual dismissal and simplification of technology in legal documents interesting. Sure, it's easy to run a program that correlates this information for you, but did the business even bother to setup their infrastructure to do this? Why should they write it if they didn't think it was important, and why should write or find this software when coerced by legal bullshit.