Slashdot Mirror


EU's Unitary Software Patent Challenged At the Belgian Constitutional Court

zoobab writes The Unitary Patent for Europe is being challenged at the Belgian Constitutional Court. One of the plaintiffs, Benjamin Henrion, is a fifteen-year campaigner against software patents in Europe. He says: "The Unitary Patent is the third major attempt to legalize software patents in Europe. The captive European Patent Court will become the Eastern District of Texas when it comes to software patent disputes in Europe. As happened in America, the concentration of power will force up legal costs, punish small European companies, and benefit large patent holders."

42 comments

  1. BRING IT ON! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unitary Rules!

  2. Rather bizarre statement... by CajunArson · · Score: 0

    "As happened in America, the concentration of power will force up legal costs, punish small European companies, and benefit large patent holders."

    Really? The vast majority of patent trolls are typically very small entities that like to sue BIG companies for one obvious reason: Big companies have deep pockets.

    I am aware of larger patent troll outfits that act as fronts for larger companies too. However, they are an exception not a rule and guess what.. they are also typically suing big companies but are used as a proxy so one big company doesn't have to sue another big company directly.

    --
    AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    1. Re:Rather bizarre statement... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Patent trolls are only part of the problem, yes they do go after big companies with big pockets where possible but those big companies also keep massive "war chests" of patents to attack other companies both big and small to keep competition out of the market. Just look at the smartphone patent wars between Nokia, Motorola, Microsoft & Apple. Patents as a whole need a major rethink, yes they do serve a purpose but only when they deal with a unique idea and are granted for a limited time only (IE not a half century). Someone who builds a company from the ground up to make a product (lets say a fork) should be able to laugh out of their office any lawyer who stops in claiming that they own the "idea" for the product in question (a instrument with between 2 and 50 pointy bits at the end of a handle or grip engineered to fit in the human hand and intended for moving food from a dish, plate or any other surface into the mouth). Most software patent and a significant number of standard patents now fall into this disturbingly obvious category.

    2. Re:Rather bizarre statement... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I believe much of the EU employs a "loser pays" legal system, which goes a long way toward eliminating litigious trolling, in addition to encouraging quality lawyers to work on consignment for little guys with a good case.

      Of course that doesn't actually do much to help a small software business whose flagship product has just had an injunction slapped on it until MegaCorp's team of crack lawyers has dragged your company through the slow wheels of "justice".

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    3. Re:Rather bizarre statement... by Kartu · · Score: 1

      Mr Jobs threatened Palm with "patent litigation" if they would not submit to non-poaching agreement. Hello.

    4. Re:Rather bizarre statement... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, yours was the entirely bizzare statement.

      1) Even if it were true that most of the troll companies were small companies, they own the smallest proportion of patents. Most owned by big companies.
      2) It's ignoring that many troll companies are held at one stand removed from a parent megacorp so that assets cannot be held at risk, but still owned by the parent.
      3) Doesn't change the fact that the big players can afford the payments, whilst smaller companies do not have cashflow or other lines to underwrite the cost
      4) The cost will just be passed on to the customers, just as any tax or penalty, therefore it won't cost the companies able to get exclusive deals with retail a cent, whilst all companies will be able to pass that cost on to the consumer.
      5) They typically sue smaller companies. It's just that big companies are more visible, being so many fewer of them, each gaining news status being shaken down, whereas the small companies nobody has heard of create no news when pumped for unearned cash.

      So yours is by far the greatest bizzare statement.

      Yet you made it apparently thinking you were being smart...

    5. Re:Rather bizarre statement... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The loser pays but you still need to put the money up front and if the loser doesn't pay voluntary you have to sue him again, which can become a recursive issue.

  3. Nothing to do with software patents by Theaetetus · · Score: 3, Informative
    Mr. Henrion is apparently so strongly opposed to software patents that he's seeing them everywhere he turns. The Unitary Patent is not an "attempt to legalize software patents," it's an attempt to harmonize the current patent system in Europe, which is a silly mishmash of union-wide and nation-specific laws. Specifically, right now, you file a patent application with the European Patent Office, which examines it. If it's allowed, then it doesn't become a patent, as there is no "European patent". Instead, you then also have to file patent applications in the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Greece, Italy, Austria, Belgium, etc., etc., paying national patent fees to each country. Those countries will rubber-stamp the patent as allowed based on the European Patent Office's decision to grant, so there's nothing added - it's just a way for each country to grab additional fees.

    Of course, as a result of those individual country fees, hardly anyone files for patent protection in, say, Luxembourg, or Albania, or Latvia, because the markets aren't big enough to justify several thousand in fees per country (except in pharma, where they can just charge thousands of dollars per dose of medicine and get the costs back easily). In fact, generally, high tech inventors only get protection in the UK, France, and Germany.

    As a result of not having patent protection in those other countries, companies also don't invest in those other countries... You're not going to open a manufacturing plant in, say, Portugal, even if the labor is really cheap, if you have no patent protection there and your competitor can simply open a plant across the street and spy through your windows. Nor are you really going to focus marketing efforts in those countries, if your competitor can simply buy the product and reverse engineer it. So, you end up with 1st world Europe in UK/FR/DE, and 2nd (or 3rd) world Europe everywhere else.

    The Unitary Patent, on the other hand, is an actual European Patent. Rather than nationalizing in each individual country, you get a single European Patent that is enforceable everywhere in Europe. It doesn't make software patents legal - and in fact, software patenting is explicitly not allowed in Europe already, and this doesn't change anything about it - it just makes the filing and fees more straightforward, while extending protection into those other countries.

    The other thing it does - and Slashdot should like this - is that it creates a Unified Patent Court that hears cases on infringement and validity of European patents. And it's not just one old fart in a black robe who doesn't use email and 12 idiots who had the day off from work, it's actually panels of three specialist judges who only hear patent cases and have appropriate scientific or engineering backgrounds (there's a mechanical division, a chemical division, and an electrical division).

    Now, there is some opposition to the Unitary Patent, but it's not "zomg, this legalizes software!" Instead, it's coming from companies in those countries that no one bothers getting a patent in that actually are doing reverse engineering of competitor's products. And yeah, they should be upset, because this would force them to come up with their own inventions rather than just stealing everyone else's.

    Disclaimer: I am a U.S. patent attorney, I'm not your attorney, this is not legal advice, etc.

    1. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by zoobab · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sorry, but other experts then me says the opposite:

      http://epla.ffii.org/quotes

    2. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is like reading theology from a religious zealot.

      Your premise that building on others' discoveries is "stealing" is patent nonsense, and reverse engineering is a workaround to a problem - not a sin.

      You know full fucking well that it'd be easier to further the reach of patents once they are harmonised across the EU, and much harder to eliminate such laws once successfully lobbied for. Since you are a patent lawyer I shall assume you are not stupid, which means you are simply dishonest out of conflict of interest (perhaps because you are a patent lawyer).

    3. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best solution to this (any many other problems in Europe) is for all of the countries to leave the EU and go back to handing their own affairs, rather than letting out-of-touch, power-hungry assholes in Brussels tell them how they should run things.

    4. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Carewolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Software patents are explicitly not allowed in US either. It was the US patent court that after it was established as being outside the normal courts that unilaterally decided to allow software patents. That is what people are afraid will happen in Europe.

    5. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Theaetetus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sorry, but other experts then me says the opposite:

      http://epla.ffii.org/quotes

      Notice that none of those are actually complaining about the establishment of a unitary court or patent, nor are they saying that this legalizes software patents, which it doesn't. Instead, they say that this could "restart the debate" over software patents. In fact, if you only read the fear-mongering, bolded "software patents are fully enforceable across Europe" in the second quote, you might miss the fact that it's saying that pro-software patent groups want that result, not that it actually exists now.

    6. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by pieterh · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, it's what people are afraid of, since the patent industry has been very clearly fighting for this for decades now. Their apologists will deny it, as usual. The EPO however is not so shy: http://www.epo.org/news-issues... lists software patents above biotech in their topics of interest with respect to the Unitary Patent.

      Anyone who claims the Unitary Patent is about reducing costs and somehow "protecting innovation" is a troll, a liar, extraordinarily ignorant, and/or a paid lobbyist. This isn't magic. We've been watching this for more than a decade. I personally spent two years doing nothing else than studying the patent system and learning its motives.

      The patent system is sociopathic, corrupt, and built on lies and the capture of politics by vested interests.

    7. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To a large extent you are correct in your observations, but you are forgetting to mention one very important point.

      There is no system for appeals. The patent system has it's very own court system, outside any other court system. Meaning you cannot get a ruling on a patent as it relates to other EU law.

    8. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      Software patents are explicitly not allowed in US either.

      That's true, which is why there aren't any enforceable patents on software, nor are any being issued now. There are patents on machines that implement software, but not on the software itself.

      It was the US patent court that after it was established as being outside the normal courts that unilaterally decided to allow software patents.

      I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The "US patent court"? You mean the Appeal Board at the USPTO? And no, it wasn't anything "outside the normal courts" - it was the Supreme Court in Diamond v. Diehr that said that inventions aren't excluded from patentability merely because they use software. And the PTAB wasn't involved in that one at all.

    9. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is BS. Noone has to spy on you to find out how your patented product works, because that is supposed to be explained in the patent. And a patent will also not protect you from reverse engineering. So why not invest in a cheap labor country, when you have explained the howto in your patent anyway and you don't seem to want to patent in that country for some reason.

    10. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not going to open a manufacturing plant in, say, Portugal, even if the labor is really cheap, if you have no patent protection there and your competitor can simply open a plant across the street and spy through your windows. Nor are you really going to focus marketing efforts in those countries, if your competitor can simply buy the product and reverse engineer it. So, you end up with 1st world Europe in UK/FR/DE, and 2nd (or 3rd) world Europe everywhere else.

      Patents are not trade secrets. Being a patent attorney, you (should) know this. People don't need to spy through your windows when they can read the patent you published in another country. They don't need to be across the street, or even in the same country to do that.

    11. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, nazi weren't cooking jews. The oven was the culprit!
      Software is not patented. The guy running the software on a generic computer (a machine) is the culprit!

    12. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Notice that your response did not refute or even state that it was refutation of the parent posters' statement that the experts disagreed with you.

      Then again, your job relies on patents being generated at massive rates to keep you in clover.

    13. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by pieterh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To be fair, there's no conflict of interest here. His interests are very clear. Patent attorneys make their money from patent disputes. The Unitary Patent is fantastic news for such people. It gives them larger clients willing to pay higher prices for pan-EU monopolies.

    14. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Informative? Really mods? When a PATENT ATTORNEY uses outright FUD like comparing patents to trade secrets while outright ignoring the description for the fucking thing is IN THE PATENT?

      You sir should be ashamed of yourself, I've seen more honest televangelists and used car salesmen, for shame.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    15. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      Informative? Really mods? When a PATENT ATTORNEY uses outright FUD like comparing patents to trade secrets while outright ignoring the description for the fucking thing is IN THE PATENT?

      ... what are you talking about? I didn't compare patents to trade secrets, and what description "IN THE PATENT"? What "PATENT"? There's no patent mentioned in the article, thread, post you're replying to, etc., etc. Are you off your meds? That would explain the all-caps frothing of rage.

    16. Re:Nothing to do with software patents by Halo1 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't make software patents legal - and in fact, software patenting is explicitly not allowed in Europe already, and this doesn't change anything about it

      Formally, it doesn't. In practice, just as the European Patent Office creatively reinterpreted the European Patent Convention (EPC) over the years and as the US C.A.F.C. kept broadening software patentability (until the Supreme Court reigned it in a bit again — and yes, I know they started it in the first place), it is unlikely that a an incrowd of patent people will forever be very stringent regarding interpreting the boundaries of patentability (hammers, nails and all that).

      And since the Unified Patent Court would be the highest authority regarding the interpretation of the EPC (the EPC is not EU law and hence would not be subject to appeals at the European Court of Justice), there would not be a body of people outside the patent system to overrule them. There is no need to look for conspiracies or bad faith in this. It's just that if you have a lot of deeply specialised people together that basically decide themselves about the rules governing their own domain, you get bad rules due to the narrow field of vision (no matter how openminded the people involved may be). Getting the EPC renogotiated would be even harder, and given that the people involved are mainly the specialists from national patent offices, it's mostly decided by the same incrowd anyway.

      --
      Donate free food here
  4. Make a federal case out of it - learn this term by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is an early warning sign of encroaching European federalism. Your grand children will think of themselves as Europeans, pay homage to that government, and turn to it for legislation rather than France, or Germany, or Luxumburg, the New York, California, and Rhode Island of Europe.

    What state do you live in? "I live in United Kingdom!"

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:Make a federal case out of it - learn this term by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      This is an early warning sign of encroaching European federalism.

      Does that mean we're going to get national health care and free travel to neighboring countries without showing papers? Sounds cool

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Make a federal case out of it - learn this term by jiriw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I already think of myself as European. I'm Dutch as well, by the way. There are many more who think the same. There are also quite some people who do not. European integration is already at work for at least half a century. With mixed results, I have to admit... but one thing it did do right; 1945 was the last year there was an active war between European nations (there has been quite an ugly civil war (Yugoslavia) and Russia doesn't seem to play nice, recently. But France, Germany and the U.K. seem to have lost their imperial aspirations). Let's hope people are smart enough to see the benefits and be wary of things that should be better - and keep voting accordingly.

    3. Re:Make a federal case out of it - learn this term by chthon · · Score: 1

      Indeed, being Flemish myself, I resent all European parties which are anti-Europe (Vlaams Blok, Geert Wilders, French Front National). Having read a whole lot on the history of WW1 and WW2, my take on matters is that anti-European parties are in reality pro-war parties.

    4. Re:Make a federal case out of it - learn this term by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But France, Germany and the U.K. seem to have lost their imperial aspirations

      You must be living in some different Europe then.. Their aspirations are confined in EU borders mainly, dictating and overriding sovereign economic policies in the "European family spirit". You may not be aware of the French operations in Africa and UK's operations in the middle-east.. Sad.

  5. Translations should still be required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't understand the reasoning of granting patent protection in a state without the grantee providing a translation to the main lanaguage(s) of that state. Of course it saves time and money, but the whole point of the patent system is the trade of the public disemination of information for certain rights to the ideas. If you don't translate to the main language(s) of a state, how are you satisfying the disemination requirement? It should simply be the cost of doing business. If you don't want to translate your patent to Swedish, it should not be valid in Sweden.

    1. Re:Translations should still be required by zoobab · · Score: 4, Informative

      For the swedish case, it is even worse, as Sweden already ratified, and the only language of the regional court will be english only. Meaning that a swedish company accused in court will have to hire a translator. And patents will only be available in english of course, translations in swedish will be made "non-legally binding" bu the unipat.

    2. Re:Translations should still be required by lskovlund · · Score: 4, Informative

      In Denmark it is even worse, the Unitary Patent was subject to popular vote, and approved - after lots of lobbying from those who stood to benefit, of course.

    3. Re:Translations should still be required by pieterh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The whole point of the patent system is to tax the market.

      It's that simple. All the rest is smoke and mirrors. We filed our appeal in Belgium because we know, in Flanders, how language can be used as a political tool. Here, the use of French, English, and German, suppresses dissent and appeal. It is already extraordinarily expensive to defend against a patent suit. The larger the court, the more it costs. I showed in 2007 using the EPO's own figures that specialized courts cost 4x more than courts that deal in all matters including patents.

      This adds to an extraordinary burden on those trying to make products, and a downhill fight for patent owners. You think the Microsoft tax on Android is exceptional or unique? No, it's the Future According the the Patent System. The cost of production falls to zero, and the cost of licensing fills the gap, and the price to the market remains flat.

      Language is a weapon, in this case.

    4. Re:Translations should still be required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Patents kept roaming data expensive, and technologies could move a lot faster without patents.
      You fought the patent system once before.
      It seems you need to keep playing the game until the patent system becomes weak.

  6. The patent system is so last millenium... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's true that for software patents are specially absurd. But come on, this is 2015. You can come up with examples of businesses where innovation is not profitable without the monopoly, and many others where patents kill innovation, but in general we have more innovation than we need. There's so much research and innovation that nobody is able to keep track of what is known, not even a gigantic patent office, and so there is no hope for quality in any patent system.
    There's so much innovation that they'll invent the problem to be able to sell the solution, they use new tricks so that there is not enough matching experience to see it's as good or bad as always and sell anew, and they force patented standards on consumers just to ensure patent royalties. Even in fields where we really need innovation (like medicine) the patent systems sucks away resources than should go to unbiased research (not long ago frustrated researchers complained of having to abandon research on possible effects of green tea in some diseases because nobody funds a cure they can't patent).
    The patent community has clearly shown that they are unable to ensure their work is useful for society. They can't stick to patentable sbject matter, specify narrow claims, ensure novelty or non-obviousness, provde disclosure that helps anyone skilled in any art, or make sure that the monopoly helps get products to market instead of keeping them out.
    The patent system is a scam and a bubble bigger than the real state. Let's just close the patent offices and simply institute watchdogs for quality, honesty and safety for people and the environment. If we haven't found competent and honest examiners, attorneys and judges in all these years able to keep the patents where they might have some use, we won't have them tomorrow. Setting up yet another patent court will not help. The patent system looked theoretically useful around the industrial revolution, was tried, has failed, and we should get rid of it and concentrate in important problems such as hunger, war, pollution, injustice, ignorance, greed, and plain lies instead of self-proclaimed innovation boosters, inventors egos and tycoon wet dreams.
    We had a reform once to get rid of the papal bulls, may we have one now to get rid of the EPO bulls ? (without the religion wars this time, please).

  7. unfavorable comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The comparison to the US is not an argument in his favor.

    Software is something the US successfully exports. All the big software things started in the US (and now Linus Torvalds lives there as well). This happens because investors in the US can expect to get returns on their risks/investments with less fear that another entity will profit off their risk and entrepreneurship leaving the risk takers without jobs.

    Same thing with the movie industry. Movies are frequently pirated in the EU. Where are movies made? Not the EU.

    Same thing with drug research. It stopped happening in Europe a while back.

    So the slashdot people say all this innovation and advancement and job openings in the US is a race to the bottom. I just don't get it ...

    Don't get me wrong, OSS will always have its place, but it is always a matter of, "Hey, Adobe's product isn't that much better than the free version. I can put the stuff I want into the free version for cheaper than getting Photoshop." And in the competition both the proprietary and the OSS options advance.

    1. Re:unfavorable comparison by mrbester · · Score: 1

      "Where are films made? Not the EU."

      Film 4 (multiple Oscar winners), Studio Canal and plenty of others would disagree.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
  8. Dying big companies, too by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    The vast majority of patent trolls are typically very small entities that like to sue BIG companies for one obvious reason: Big companies have deep pockets.

    It's not just patent trolls.

    When a big technology company is in trouble, one thing they may do to try to stay alive is go through their portfolio of patents and sue everybody doing anything related to them. This is in the hope that they can pull in enough cash to stay alive a few more months, by finding actual infringement on discovery, or just provoking a patent cross-licensing-and-balancing-cash deal to make the suit go away.

    About a decade ago I was on the receiving end of such a suit: My project had done some chips that included some new SONET functionality. Nortel was getting desparate and went after everybody doing SONET, so my project (and a few others) were related. I got called in to advise the lawyers on how what we did was different from the claims. (It was - drastically.) I hear that one ended up in a "swap and we pay some cash" settlement.

    This was the only time I recall actually being asked to look at another company's patent on what we were doing. Companies - at least in the US - try to keep their engineers from looking at other patents, because knowing you're infringing triple. So we get to reinvent various wheels rather than raise the risk. That means one of the claimed advantages of patents - releasing recipies for the neat technology to general use after the patents expire - is about as bogus as the ever-extended copyrights.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  9. Re:Dying big companies, too - clarifying typo by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Companies - at least in the US - try to keep their engineers from looking at other patents, because knowing you're infringing triples the damage awards.

    I hate the keyboard and trackpad on this Toshiba Satellite S75. (It's just as bad as the ones on the Lenovo Z710, too.) Overly-wide, ultra-thin, chicklets, with no clearance for fingernails. Brush the trackpad while typing and half a sentence is highlighted and instantly overwritten by the next keystroke, making it disappear. Typos up the wazoo. In nearly a year I haven't been able to get used to these designs.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  10. EUROTUMOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the EU is OBVIOUSLY just a huge corrupt carcass of a lobby heaven....stuffed with extreme wasteful expenses and at the same time IMPOVERISHING THE EUROPEAN POPULATION...

    AS SOON AS POSSIBLE ALL PEOPLE SHOULD FIGHT TO END THE EURO AND THE EUROPEAN UNION !

  11. Software for computers, as such. by aberglas · · Score: 1

    The Euro patent legislation specifically bans software patents "as such". But the EPO has interpreted "as such" to means only "pure software" that does does not run on a computer is unpatentable. Once it runs on a computer, it is no longer "as such" and therefor patenable.

    Does not make sense, but who cares if you are the judge, jury and executioner. Unified patent is pure evilness.

  12. the biggest scam is employee assignment agreements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They have to go. No more, i am your boss now give me everything forever whether i use it or not!