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Another 'Draw Your Own Circuits' System at SXSW (Video)

While Timothy Lord was at SXSW, he chatted with Yuki Nishida of AgIC and learned about the company's conductive ink products. But AgIC wasn't the only company at SXSW showing off conductive ink. You could also meet the Electroninks people and see their Circuit Scribe product, which had a Kickstarter campaign a while back that raised $574,425.

This kind of product seems to be attractive to the kind of people who fund Kickstarter projects, and this bunch seems to have good resumes and some interesting, well thought-out products. There is apparently room in the 'draw circuits and learn electrical basics' market for both AgIC and Electroninks -- and probably for another dozen competitors, too.

27 comments

  1. Draw your own Circuit by chinton · · Score: 1

    As demonstrated by Terl.

  2. Room for competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Both companies seem to be differentiating themselves effectively. ElectronInks is focusing more on educational materials, and AgIC is producing printer cartridges and specialized paper that might suggest a more professional customer base. Would love to see both of these companies succeed.

  3. There's only one problem... by PhantomHarlock · · Score: 2

    because the ink layer is so thin, these circuits have an incredible amount of resistance, even with really fat lines.

    I have one of these pens and it is a fun novelty, but not useful for practical circuits. The metal content isn't high enough. It's better applied to art projects and for kids teaching where you can show them a lot of circuit concepts in a very visual manner. That's where I felt this product would excel. If you drag a lead to a lightbulb over a 10" line, depending on how thick it is the bulb will be completely out either in a few inches or with a fat line over the whole length.

    A version where you squired a lot more of the material with a thickener out of a mustard type squeeze bottle would get you some more functionality. But it's fun for the kids.

    1. Re:There's only one problem... by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I wonder if either company could produce a stepper motor control?

    2. Re:There's only one problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think the intention of those inks are to replace power lines, but rather to draw signal wires.
      Granted, they seem pretty useless for printing an entire PCB then, but the whole 3D-printing movement seems more focused on what is possible with the tools we have now rather than what would actually be useful.
      I guess it is still somewhat useful as a more flexible replacement for prototyping boards. You can design the PCB as you want it and then print it out to test it with the exception that you have to solder in wires between the power pins.
      The high resistance will mean that everything close to a high frequency will work completely different, but as long as you stay around the 1 MHz range that shouldn't cause too much trouble.

  4. Use a breadboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And this article has a big black box that tells me I need a flash player.

    1. Re:Use a breadboard by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      It doesn't do that for me, so get Flash Player.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  5. But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First quality two-layer PCBs, gold flashed with solder mask and silk screen both sides, are available within 10-14 days for $5.00 per square inch, and for that price you get three of them . Four-layer boards are $10/in^2. I've made my own PCBs using a variety of techniques in the past, and have breadboarded and wire wrapped dozens of boards. But with the price of real circuit boards where it is, I have no reason to do so again. These DIY systems are clever, but I just can't see how they qualify as practical.

    1. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, sorry, you think this is meant to make practical PCBs? No, this is meant to separate the gullible and excitable "maker" fools from their money. I'd bet every single one of the losers buying into this have at least six different 3D printers in their closets.

    2. Re:But why? by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      First quality two-layer PCBs, gold flashed with solder mask and silk screen both sides, are available within 10-14 days for $5.00 per square inch, and for that price you get three of them.

      From where? Links, please!

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    3. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you heard of this thing called Google, numbnuts?

    4. Re:But why? by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Have you heard of this thing called Google, numbnuts?

      It's spelled googol, if you're talking about the number, and I don't see what that has to do with providing information about companies that provide PCB fab services.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    5. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OSH Park, in Oregon. I tried to put the URL in the original post, but it didn't appear. Perhaps this will work: oshpark.com

    6. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you go overseas, I've seen prices go down as low as $2-3 per sq inch, such that your whole order is about $20 for a minimum 5 board order, although shipping will double that if you can't combine orders or don't open an account with the right company. But that is the price of rigid circuit boards, flexible ones can cost a lot more than that depending on the substrate.

      Also, the lead time is the killer for me. Even at my day job where we have money to pay for rush orders from domestic companies that can give us a board in 2-3 days, we rarely send out for boards during early prototype stages. A circuit board router is the direction we've gone at work and I've gone at home (now down to $500 for a small, cheap one). Especially now that there are components that won't work well on a breadboard, e.g. faster logic is a lot cheaper than it used to be.

      The conductive ink here doesn't really fit into that, but neither does cheap pcb boardhouses. It really depends on your priority. If maximum quality for low cost for generic PCBs is your priority, go with a boardhouse. If fast turn around with minimal effort is your priority, get a router. If fast turn around with minimal costs (at least in the short term), learn to etch your boards. If you are going to be doing non-standard boards, educational demonstrations, working with kids, art projects, or just want to screw around with something fun, then conducting ink might be an appropriate option.

    7. Re:But why? by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      That is absolutely terrific, thank you! To those who will come after: it seems that the $5 / inch^2 price includes shipping too.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    8. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it's spelled "dangerous" in your sig, dingleberry breath. Great, another semi-literate mouth-breather that expects everything spoon fed to him and still manages to be arrogant.

      Great combination.

    9. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, sorry, you think this is meant to make practical PCBs? No, this is meant to separate the gullible and excitable "maker" fools from their money. I'd bet every single one of the losers buying into this have at least six different 3D printers in their closets.

      Most truthful comment I've seen in weeks.

    10. Re:But why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      available within 10-14 days for $5.00 per square inch

      That's exactly why people are so depserate to find less expensive ways to build circuits. It's only $5, but it's only 1 square inch. What the fuck can you do with one square inch?

      I was once wanting to build a small Z80 computer. After some time I was able to get the design down to 4 inches by 6 inches, for a total of 24 square inches. So that would cost $120 for three boards, or $40 per board. The PCB would cost more than the entire rest of the system combined. ...and god-forbid the board didn't work and so I just have to throw it away and buy another one. Needless to say, I never had one of the boards made. PCB manufacturing is just too expensive for someone who is only building things for fun. So instead I drilled some holes in plexiglass (perfboard is too expensive too) and soldered wrapping wire between all of the pins.

      Yet, somehow, I keep finding much larger PCBs in devices that cost much less than the PCB would cost at such rates. Take a typical motherboard for example, at 8" x 9.5", for a total of 76 square inches, or $228 for 3 boards, or $76 each. Yet I can buy a motherboard for half of that price, and that half price comes with all of the components already mounted to the board. ...and how many layers are in that motherboard? ...and yet a simple two-layer board, with no components mounted, costs $5 per square inch?

      The simple fact is that PCBs are bloody fucking expensive for anyone who doesn't live in China, and so there's a reason that people are desperate to find some less expensive way to put circuits together. Now, this particular idea, drawing circuits with conductive ink, is brain-dead stupid, but I totally understand why there is so much market pressure causing people to put together brain-dead stupid ideas like this in order to try to fill the need. People are desperate to throw money at any solution that will be less expensive than $5 per square inch, and as $5 per square inch is a lot of money, there's a lot of money being thrown around.

  6. How about drawing it and THEN coating it by raymorris · · Score: 1

    I wonder if one could draw or print a circuit, then coat it to be thicker. For example, we know if you lay a cheap circuit board with copper traces into a pan of melted solder, the solder will only stick to the copper traces, making them thicker while rolling right off the bare board. Perhaps a copper based pen/marker could be used in that way. You'd prefer something more convenient than melting enough solder to the bottom of a pan, but the general concept make work.

    Along the same lines, when I was a little kid I attached a battery to a copper penny and a quarter, then left them in water overnight. That resulted in electroplating the quarter with copper. It would therefore be possible to draw or print your circuit, then easily electroplate it with pure, low-resistance copper. I think electroplating applies a very thin layer. You might need it thicker, so again that concept would need to be refined.

    1. Re:How about drawing it and THEN coating it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normal professional circuit boards are made by putting a very thing layer of copper on the board with a photo-lithography method, then electroplating more copper onto it. Getting that first layer on requires most of the technology involved, and the electroplating is straightforward to some degree, but depending on what mixture of chemicals you use it will be quite dirty and possibly toxic. Something like this might work for that, assuming the substrate can handle the process and doesn't weaken the bond the new copper forms.

    2. Re:How about drawing it and THEN coating it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not correct, the thin layer of copper is foil and is pressed on. The foil is made on a steel roller that spins in a copper solution, the foil has a smooth side and a rough side, the rough side helps to stick to the base material.

    3. Re:How about drawing it and THEN coating it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The couple shops I toured when doing some work overseas either plated copper onto bare boards, or had a thin layer already present. Either way involved applying a mask via a photolithography method before the plating process started. Unless you are doing something weird or only need a very light method, you're going to be platting to save copper vs. some sort of subtractive method.

    4. Re:How about drawing it and THEN coating it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you can't plate copper onto bare fiberglass. The first step is a board with a thin layer of copper already present, and I mean very thin. This is etched with the pattern, then "grown" to the right thickness afterwards.

    5. Re:How about drawing it and THEN coating it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you can't plate copper onto bare fiberglass

      Yes you can, look up elctroless copper plating. Even for shops that start with a thin foil on the whole surface will use electroless copper plating to plat the vias, which is just bare fiberglass also. In western countries, you tend to see it used only for via plating, but in cheaper places they will use it for the whole board. The regulations related to exposure and discharge of various chemicals in the process (e.g. formaldehyde) is what determines which route is cheaper to go in different places for typical boards, although for some substrates one method or the other is better regardless of the extra costs.

    6. Re:How about drawing it and THEN coating it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but the vias are treated with a caustic bath first, because you can't plate to fiberglass. Look up sodium etch. "Electroless" plating is a chemical solution that doesn't use electroplating, this is for the gold finish. I don't know where you get the idea that is for the copper.

      In the 1960s vias were plated right away and the via reliability was very poor, because you can't plate to fiberglass. You need to roughen the surface, or use foil with the rough side down. This is even more important with materials that are even more resistant than fiberglass...

      http://www.eurocircuits.com/In...

    7. Re:How about drawing it and THEN coating it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because you can't plate to fiberglass

      Some places call it fully additive, and it is common enough to be even in textbooks.

      "Electroless" plating is a chemical solution that doesn't use electroplating, this is for the gold finish. I don't know where you get the idea that is for the copper.

      Maybe because nearly every board house that uses the process calls it that for copper, even the same place you just linked to.

      Look, places are using this now, as in the last couple years, as I've seen it in person in China. You can look up examples easy enough on google. A lot of place use the semi-additive process too, but that doesn't mean that is the only way. You keep saying things are wrong, but nothing you've said has shown it is wrong that a photolithography method is used before electroplating (short of more esoteric methods), that it is wrong to say you can plate onto bare board, and it is referred to as electroless plating...