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Finding an Optimal Keyboard Layout For Swype

New submitter Analog24 writes: The QWERTY keyboard was not designed with modern touchscreen usage in mind, especially when it comes to swype texting. A recent study attempted to optimize the standard keyboard layout to minimize the number of swype errors. The result was a new layout that reduces the rate of swipe interpretation mistakes by 50.1% compared to the QWERTY keyboard.

140 comments

  1. Not surprising by Mister+Transistor · · Score: 0

    Since the QWERTY layout was designed to SLOW down typists of the day, so the mechanical typewriters of the day wouldn't get their keys stuck or jammed together from typing too fast before the previous letter's hammer fell back.

    --
    -- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
    1. Re:Not surprising by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      the QWERTY layout was designed to SLOW down typists of the day,

      Just so you know, that's a myth.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd also add that the reason we stick with QWERTY is that you need to know where the keys are, and you already know QWERTY, so... It's especially important to be aware of their position when using swipe, since sometimes it's more about the motion than "hitting" the keys.
      Of course we could change layouts, but using a bunch of them for each specific case isn't the best overall.

    3. Re: Not surprising by Hussman32 · · Score: 1
      --
      "Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
    4. Re:Not surprising by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, no it wasn't.

      It was designed so that the hammers for successive key presses came from different areas of the typewriter, and hence reduce jamming (speeding up typing).

      It happens that this is slower than the optimal layout if you ignore jamming, but much faster if you don't.

      The result is that several layouts are better now for keyboards (which don't jam), but the design intention was not to slow typists down. It was to reduce jamming, and in doing so speed them up.

    5. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Just so you know, your myth is [possibly] a myth

    6. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since the QWERTY layout was designed to SLOW down typists of the day,

      And yet, in spite of not being a particularly fast typist as far as such things go, on a QWERTY keyboard I have no trouble exceeding the texting world record speed of around 90 wpm, something that was only sustained for moments and can only be reached by a few people in the world, and only if they don't need to enter special symbols.

    7. Re:Not surprising by __aabppq7737 · · Score: 1

      ..but the QWERTY keyboard was not optimized for English.

    8. Re:Not surprising by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just so you know, your myth of mythiness is a myth. The guy writing this blog post fails at reading comprehension.

      His one sole piece of "evidence" for this being a myth is an academic paper saying [IF] you set out to design a slow keyboard layout, you would probably design qwerty.

      That's not the same thing as the person designing qwerty set out to make a slow layout. It's in fact well documented that his goal was to reduce jamming, and in fact he filed a patent for the design (US 79868), stating that explicitly as his goal.

      The fact that reducing jamming meant that the letters were laid out in a pretty weird way just happened to slow down typing on a non-jamming-keyboard as a coincidence.

    9. Re:Not surprising by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      I doubt many people here under the age of, oh, thirty or so have ever used a typewriter, let alone one that was capable of jamming. Selectrics didn't, daisy wheels didn't. The last one I used that could jam was my dad's mid-70s Smith-Corona portable.

    10. Re:Not surprising by gnupun · · Score: 1

      the QWERTY layout was designed to SLOW down typists of the day,

      Just so you know, that's a myth.

      I decided to investigate the myth. I created a simple script to output letter frequencies for large pieces of text and this is what I obtained for the book "War and Peace," by Tolstoy:

      E: 315232, T: 226406, A: 205807, O: 192879
      N: 184174, I: 174282, H: 167404, S: 162894
      R: 148428, D: 118289, L: 96527, U: 65433
      M: 61646, C: 61624, W: 59207, F: 54896
      G: 51326, Y: 46266, P: 45533, B: 34659
      V: 27086, K: 20431, X: 4384, J: 2574
      Z: 2387, Q: 2330

      Most high frequency letters: E, T, A, O, N, I, H, S don't fall on the home row of the QWERTY layout. Whereas all these letters belong in the home row of the Dvorak layout.

      Is there valid reason why low frequency letters like K and J are in the home row of QWERTY other than to slow down typing?

    11. Re:Not surprising by allo · · Score: 1

      Because you do not type faster, if all the most frequent letters are in the home row. Just try it, type some Text only consisting of the homerow letters, then type some english text. If you are a good typist, the english text will be much faster.

      There are several reasons, but for example see typing st, the fingers are one finger away from each other (stopping irritation when the t-finger returns to the home row) and you need to move your finger for the t, which makes it more distinct (try typting stststt and then typing asasasas).

    12. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought you typed proper English faster because of muscle memory. You don't actually have to think about where to place your fingers for each letter because you have, in a sense, trained your fingers to know how to write a word. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me to better explain you observations than your explanation.

      I could type neither "stststt" or "asasasas" particularly quickly, nor was there a noticeable difference in the speed at which I could type them (without finding/writing some software to actually measure the speed).

    13. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An "electric typewriter" does not fit the common use of the term "typewriter". Whenever anybody mentions a typewriter, they're talking about mechanical articulated legs and a fan of hammers behind an ink ribbon.

      Don't be a dumbass.

    14. Re:Not surprising by Analog24 · · Score: 2

      Here is an image of the QWERTY keyboard with each letter highlighted by it's frequency of use. The Google Trillion Word database (refined to ignore typos and misspellings, so containing ~100,000 of the most commonly used words in the English language) was used as the input. http://sangaline.com/blog/opti...

    15. Re:Not surprising by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      You're thinking of electronic typewriters, perhaps. Electromechanical typewriters include the Selectric and that Smith-Corona - the keys mechanically engage certain clutches and drive systems, which allows the motor to drive the hammer(s) for the appropriate key. The motor was always running.

  2. my finglers thank you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't type and I blame QWERTY

  3. Graffiti? by TWX · · Score: 2

    Back when I had a Palm Pilot I found that the Graffiti entry method was very effective, much more than trying to press tiny on-screen 'keys' with a fingertip almost ten times bigger.

    Instead of a stylus, how about we make the area of the on-screen keyboard instead act as a finger-pad when the phone is held in-portrait? I think it'd be big enough to reproduce Graffiti strokes with one's finger so that a stylus wouldn't be necessary...

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:Graffiti? by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Touchscreens will never be able to compete with physical keyboards for speed regardless of how you lay out the alphabet. Fine motor skills work best with tactile feedback, which is denied to you when using a flat touchscreen.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Graffiti? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And the conclusion is: instead of trying to improve on input methods on tiny devices, we should require all trousers makers to have a keyboard-sized pocket.

    3. Re:Graffiti? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Touchscreens will never be able to compete with physical keyboards for speed regardless of how you lay out the alphabet. Fine motor skills work best with tactile feedback, which is denied to you when using a flat touchscreen.

      Which is the reason I use a BlackBerry smartphone with a physical keyboard instead of an all-touch BlackBerry smartphone. I type messages faster using the physical keyboard than the on-screen keyboard. It is bad enough children and adults these days cannot write legibly and it will only get worse when people cannot even type on the keyboard.

    4. Re:Graffiti? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A full size (desktop) keyboard is obviously faster. But keyboards such as Swype are faster than blackberry-sized physical keyboards.

    5. Re:Graffiti? by Dracos · · Score: 1

      The 5 row hardware QWERTY keyboard is the reason why I still have my 4 year old Epic 4G (Galaxy 1) and refuse to upgrade it, because there is no new phone I want. The last Android phone with a hardware keyboard came out in 2012.

      Apparently Sprint is desperate to sell me a new phone... they've started sending me upgrade offers via FedEx.

    6. Re:Graffiti? by damnbunni · · Score: 3, Informative

      LG Optimus F3Q, February 2014.

      No idea if it's any good or not, but it's a five-row QWERTY that came out last year.

    7. Re:Graffiti? by __aabppq7737 · · Score: 1

      the area of the on-screen keyboard instead act as a finger-pad...

      I don't know about you, but I write with a pencil more accurately than a finger. Leverage gives me the upper hand in precision.

    8. Re:Graffiti? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Siri: Master, I must confess to tattling to the NSA about your activities and conversations.

    9. Re:Graffiti? by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but Grafitti was pretty good and you could get away with using less screen real estate than modern on-screen keyboards if you implemented it. You'd need HP's permission, though.

    10. Re:Graffiti? by allo · · Score: 1

      graffiti is nice (there are graffiti keyboards for android), but not as fast as good swiping. You want to try swiftkey, then you will never want to use swype again. Swiftkey beats them all at swiping and at good predictions, typos and next word based on previous word. Have a typo in your sentence? Do not bother to set the text mark correctly (which is annoying on android). Just keep backspace pressed (swiftkey goes into "delete whole words" mode), type the word correctly, then touch the correct suggestions instead of typing the rest of the sentence (swiftkey remembers them in a type of markov chain biased to recently typed words). And swiping is just more accurate there.

    11. Re:Graffiti? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I consider myself blessed. True Linux based phone (Sailfish OS with Wayland, Qt, btrfs...), and now a keyboard:

      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2028347278/tohkbd-the-other-half-keyboard-for-your-jolla

      I fucking love my Jolla, and I would have hard time going back to Android after this. Closed ecosystems like iOS and Winpho wouldn't even be a conserdation, I'd rather go back to dumb phone.

    12. Re:Graffiti? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last time I tried Swiftkey, it's swipe implementation was horrible, much worse than Swype and even worse that Google Keyboard's implementation. I realise how well prediction works depends on your writing style, but it didn't work well enough for me, I went back to using Swype.

    13. Re:Graffiti? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Touchscreens will never be able to compete with physical keyboards for speed regardless of how you lay out the alphabet. Fine motor skills work best with tactile feedback, which is denied to you when using a flat touchscreen.

      This is incorrect. There are texters that regularly hit the upper numbers in regards to correct wpm. You can't beat the speed of a computer no matter how you fast you might be, and when the computer's deciding what word you might be typing before you hit the 3rd letter...claiming otherwise is asinine. You're not John Henry and this isn't the railroad. It's 2015.

    14. Re:Graffiti? by allo · · Score: 1

      I guess it depends, which one you're used to. I tried both, when i did not use swipe before and liked swiftkey more. And the google keyboard has too little feedback.

  4. The old "let's learn a new keyboard" routine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Tried many times in the past, failed. The amount of time and effort to reach proficiency on a non-standard layout, combined with the presence of standard layouts in business and consumer products, means you are fighting the Beta vs. VHS war. It's right up there with designing new pet programming languages that are essentially syntactic sugar, offering no additional computability.

    1. Re:The old "let's learn a new keyboard" routine by DrunkenTerror · · Score: 1

      Really? Took me about a month to get used to Dvorak. Fifteen years ago. Totally worth it IMO. You might be surprised how plastic the brain is.

    2. Re:The old "let's learn a new keyboard" routine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      And I bet you don't own a TV either, right?

    3. Re:The old "let's learn a new keyboard" routine by DrunkenTerror · · Score: 1

      Bry ypg.v Cy-o cb mf iapai. ,cyd mf jrmcj xrrtov C rjjaocrbannf epai cy rgy yr lnaf Ipab Ygpcomr 3v

    4. Re:The old "let's learn a new keyboard" routine by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Tried many times in the past, failed. The amount of time and effort to reach proficiency on a non-standard layout, combined with the presence of standard layouts in business and consumer products, means you are fighting the Beta vs. VHS war. It's right up there with designing new pet programming languages that are essentially syntactic sugar, offering no additional computability.

      I don't think that is true at all. I put MessagEase keyboard on my Android phone a while ago. They have a training game that you can get also. By the time you have played the game for 10 minutes you are faster than you are on a qwerty keyboard. It is grid of only 9 main keys. Touching a key enters that letter, but sliding your finger from that key in towards the middle does a different letter. Punctuation is on there as slides in other directions and you can even enable number entry without switching to the number keyboard by drawing a circle that starts on the correct key. The keys end up being much larger and you only need 9 locations to learn.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  5. Heh by war4peace · · Score: 1

    I couldn't even adapt to swyping.

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  6. Language by itzly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The effectiveness of swyping depends quite a bit on the language. I find that it works fairly well in English, but not nearly as well in some other languages, where there may be many more ambiguous words. This also means that the optimal keyboard layout would depend on the language, which would be horrible to use for those of us who use two or more different languages.

    1. Re:Language by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Its particularly bad in Korean, where the words tend to alternate consonant-vowel-consonant with the consonants on the left and vowels on the right. It just ends up being an exponential explosion of possibilities without much branch pruning. Its also harder in agglutative languages than non-agglutatives, because you can't have a simple dictionary of all words.

      But in the end it doesn't matter. If you actually use a keyboard, 2 features are must haves- the first is that you need to be able to type the occasional word. The second is that you need to know where the keys are, so you can type-swype efficiently. That precludes a new keyboard layout, as you know more or less where every key on a qwerty is- you don't on an "optimized" layout and you'll take months to learn. An alternate keyboard doesn't have that much time, it has a few hours max to get you to love it.

      Disclaimer: I worked at Swype from 2010-2012.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:Language by crossmr · · Score: 1

      What makes it worse for Korean is that they removed the ability to change words. So if you're swyping along and you realize you entered a wrong word, well fuck you. You have to go back and delete the entire word and try again. No tapping the word and picking an alternate spelling. It used to have that functionality, they removed it, and can't seem to understand why that's a problem. If I wasn't such a long term user, I'd dump it, but it's hard to go back. Though, they keep pushing.

      I've found accuracy to be abysmal lately. combined with the "we don't care about the user" attitude it might finally push me off the app. Too bad you can't get a refund at this point.

    3. Re:Language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That must be language-specific, because that still works fine in English.

    4. Re:Language by crossmr · · Score: 1

      It is language specific, and they intentionally disabled it. It used to work fine. Then they disabled it in one update for what amounted to "reasons" and when called out on it on social media basically just gave excuses and have made no attempt to reenable it. It's really annoying.

  7. Fascinating by Ignacio · · Score: 1

    TL;DR: Classic keyboard layout optimization places commonly used keys close together to reduce finger motion, but swipe layout optimization spreads them out in order to improve recognition.

    1. Re:Fascinating by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Classic keyboard layout optimization places commonly used keys close together to reduce finger motion

      This is incorrect. Any decent optimization (on a normal keyboard) places the commonly used keys in the home row, and places them so that you're more likely to alternate hands between each keypress. Less-used keys go on the upper row, and the least-used keys go on the bottom row (which is harder to reach), but the overall goal is to alternate hands.

  8. SwiftKey by Flymo2 · · Score: 1

    SwiftKey is extremely fast, especially with Flow get has totally revolutionised smartphone usage for me.

    1. Re:SwiftKey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is Flow? If it's another keyboard swiping thing, how is it different from Swype or Google's Keyboard's swipe functionality? Can you tell us, you know, anything at all about why you like SwiftKey?

    2. Re:SwiftKey by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Flow is Swiftkey's knock off of Swype. It probably has some differences in the algorithm that will make it better for some words and worse for others, but its just a knock off.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    3. Re:SwiftKey by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      I bought both Swype and Swiftkey for my Note 3 (huge screen). In both English and Hebrew Swiftkey was both easier to start using and consistently gives better results. I even tried using Swype exclusively for a few weeks to see if I could train Swype / train myself to get it to work as well as Swiftkey, but that never happened.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    4. Re:SwiftKey by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Swiftkey is better than Swype if you type more than you swipe and often type in several languages (which totally breaks any swipe algorithm). This is why I disable Flow in first place (and it is also a memory hog, as the rest of Swiftkey).

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    5. Re:SwiftKey by allo · · Score: 1

      english german dual dictionary mode with swiftkey works quite good here.

    6. Re:SwiftKey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Logging all text and trying to monetize it is difficult and high-risk. Also, software developers are not generally as amoral as you are. In terms of getting actual useful monetizable data, doing your job right in this case would not involve a keylogger. You're interested in actually improving the thing that is making you money, and probably you're mostly interested in errors, or "swypos" as TFA dubs them. For that you're probably going to want the actual input (the touch event), the correct word, and the misidentified word.

      It's best to assume neither malice nor stupidity in your fellow creature. There are good enough reasons to do so in this case. However, if you are curious, feel free to examine the program's network traffic and verify the contents. Until then you should probably STFU.

  9. The what keyboard? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 4, Funny

    reduces the rate of swipe interpretation mistakes by 50.1% compared to the QWERY keyboard.

    I think you accidentally a letter.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    1. Re:The what keyboard? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      And here I am with no mod points.

      Virtual +1 Funny to you, sir.

  10. Awww maaaaaan by AlCapwn · · Score: 5, Funny

    Swyper, no swyping.

  11. Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Zero chance of retraining people's brains. Any keyboard layout requires muscle memory. Doesn't matter which one you pick, you still have to use it a long time and develop the muscle memory.

    This is where UI designers go horribly wrong. They don't realize that people have been using View / Source in Firefox, or File / Save As... in GIMP, etc for LONGER THAN THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN OUT OF COLLEGE and it's next to impossible to override years of muscle memory. Even if you know in your brain that View / Source has been moved, or that it's File / Export... now, you can't stop the muscle memory. That's why so many people hate UI designers who shuffle things around for no reason. It doesn't matter where View / Source is. What matters is that it's always where it is supposed to be.

    1. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      This explains why GIMP is so horrible. Things have been done a certain way in image editors for decades and these guys come along and move everything around because they think they're better than everybody else.

    2. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Analog24 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First, I just want to say that the purpose of the analysis wasn't to design a new keyboard to try and get people to switch to. We just thought it was an interesting problem and wanted to see what it looked like. But I disagree with you, there are plenty of people who took the time to learn/use the Dvorak keyboard. It's a small fraction of the population but it's not an insignificant number of people. I agree that pointless changes like the ones you mentioned in GIMP are annoying and detrimental but retraining yourself to improve efficiency at some task is not unheard of.

    3. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Teenagers and 20-somethings have not been using these things that long; if you switch to a better UI, the youngest people will adopt it fastest and easiest. Just because you're 60 and have been using these paradigms for the last 25 years doesn't mean everyone is happy with them.

    4. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used GIMP for quite awhile, but that one thing really was aggravating, and still find it so.

      If these assholes were designing cars, they would be swapping the gas and brake pedals around.

    5. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think that counts as "muscle" memory, you need to get out of the basement. You may find that you need to crawl, but it's worth it.

    6. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      there are plenty of people who took the time to learn/use the Dvorak keyboard.

      Who? I never met one? I'm sure they exist, but the problem with trying to improve language based things is that we already speak this one. Even if the incumbent sucks, the cost to change is far too great. It's like all those bitches that constantly moan about Windows. Too bad, MS got in first, so their way is the de facto standard in PC land.
      If you're interested in challenges, I'd like to see a paper on the best method for replacing a large incumbent cultural norm. eg If you had to get everyone to stop speaking English,and use another language how could you do it? Unlock that secret and the world is yours.

    7. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      You mean teenagers who grew up with qwerty keyboards since primary school? and on their parents PCs? And in their future place of work?
      The same teenagers whose care factor for keyboard layout s is precisely zero? Your argument might make sense if you were talking about jeans or haircuts, but keyboard layouts, not so much.
      The big issue here is the incumbency inertia, which is as close to an immovable object as you can get.

    8. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean teenagers who grew up with qwerty keyboards since primary school? and on their parents PCs? And in their future place of work?

      The same teenagers whose care factor for keyboard layout s is precisely zero? Your argument might make sense if you were talking about jeans or haircuts, but keyboard layouts, not so much.

      The big issue here is the incumbency inertia, which is as close to an immovable object as you can get.

      'Growing up' with a home PC is irrelevant. Teens won't actually pick up speed typing and its accompanying muscle memory until they start corresponding *daily* with others. For some, this may be Facebook chat / Youtube channels. Guess what? both require a minimum age of 13, legally.
      Yes, some kids will get around it, but that's not the point. Even with home usage for 2 years late in highschool, the speed actually began with college when I went away and was typing day and night. That I had SOME AOL chatroom and I before college didn't add much IIRC.
      College time away from home is when US kids will start making full use of their cellphones, because there is no parental regulation as they're away from home.

    9. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Analog24 · · Score: 1

      There are literally tens of thousands of people who have downloaded alternative keyboards for their smartphones, it's not too hard to find out app statistics. I would be careful projecting your personal laziness/stubbornness to the entire population. There 320 million people in the U.S., that means even the "outliers" number in the millions. And yes, I know at least five people that use the Dvorak keyboard.

    10. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      Ask these 20-somethings how they feel about stupid marketing stunts when they are (20+3)-somethings and all the UI standards change yet again.

    11. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Who? I never met one?

      Let me introduce myself...

      Everyone makes fun of me, though.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    12. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Celarent+Darii · · Score: 1

      The majority of users are not teenagers. And in reality we older fellows actually work for a living and make money for our companies. We are the actual USERS of the equipment.

      Most teenagers are using computers for video games. It really doesn't matter what the OS GUI is like for this. If they complain about the "old GUI" it's often because they are too lazy to learn how to use it.

      And furthermore "the better UI" simply sucks. Proof in point.

      Any sane GUI designer would be wiser to think of the actual users, and not just what is a "subjectively better UI". There is a reason why things have been done the way they are for so long, and to ignore these reason is simply stupid.

    13. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there are plenty of people who took the time to learn/use the Dvorak keyboard.

      Who? I never met one?

      *Hands up* One here. But after a couple years, I found I didn't type enough to justify the inconvenience of using a different keyboard layout.

      If one day, I need to type lots of stuff over months or years, then I might take the effort to pick it up again. For normal use, the efficiency gain is not worth the inconvenience.

    14. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      I've downloaded a few keyboards myself and gave up on them all. How many of those other tens of of thousand did the same?
      You are right, I am lazy, but so is everyone else, so you have to take that into account when judging your target market. I'm assuming more people are lazy like me than like your average adventurous Dvorak user.

    15. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      you seem to know nothing about current teenagers.

    16. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      One particular new UI sucking is not proof that all new UIs suck.

      And just because we've done things a certain way for 30 years does not mean that's the best way to do things, it just means it has a lot of inertia.

      You probably don't remember this, but back in the early 1900s, there was a lot of resistance to putting steering wheels in cars, because earlier cars had tillers. A lot of people thought they should just stick with tillers, because that's what had been used before and people were used to them. It's a good thing those people were ignored.

      Finally, MacOS has been putting the menu bar for the active task at the top of the screen since probably before Windows ever came out. Why don't we just stick with that on all UIs? Or are you simply arguing that whatever UI you prefer is better?

    17. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by igloo-x · · Score: 0

      Any sane GUI designer would be wiser to think of the actual users, and not just what is a "subjectively better UI". There is a reason why things have been done the way they are for so long, and to ignore these reason is simply stupid.

      No. Speak for yourself. Given me a subjectively better UI and I'll be happy to learn it because in the long run it'll make my life better.

      There are reasons why things have been done the way they are for so long, but they're not necessarily good reasons. QWERTY keyboards were designed to stop the hammers on typewriters from binding up. They exist because of a limitation of the time.

      And furthermore "the better UI" simply sucks. Proof in point [pingdom.com].

      Posting this as your "proof" only makes your argument look weaker. It's terrible. Please come up with a better one.

    18. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Celarent+Darii · · Score: 1

      The tiller was used because the first cars were about as slow as boats, so they were steered with a tiller like boats. However as cars became faster and more powerful the tiller was no longer adequate, and thus the wheel was adopted as it simply worked better. Yet your example only proves the point: since the 19th century there has been NO CHANGE in this UI for steering a car. Once the wheel was invented, no one wanted to go back to the tiller and no one even invented some other way to steer a car. There is something optimal in the use of the steering wheel that makes any other refinements and changes useless.

      Similarly the first graphic UI's were full of experimentation. Even the first Mac OS's had the menu bar in the window, but was moved out in early beta phase as the idea was that it was easier on the user to simply look always in the same place for the applications' commands, and has remained there ever since. Windows traditionally had the menu bar inside the window, with very little exceptions. However your example shows the same thing I am trying to get across: they DON'T change once they've made a decision.

      X11 window managers actually gives you more choice - you can have either way or both. I think an argument can be made for either one. It seems that today, at least in Linux land, there is a tendancy to put the menu bar as something permanent on top (at least in Unity), but many desktops still keep the in-window menu bar.

      To be honest I don't even like Mac OS X or Windows style menu bars. I actually use i3-wm as my hands are always on the keyboard. The mouse is a useless thing in my honest opinion, but for drawing and things like that it is indeed useful. Most of my work is at the keyboard, so I like the UI to be controllable with the keyboard. The menu bar is for some users needed, but I have different work habits from the era before we had X11 so I would say I'm more an exception than the rule.

      In any case, my point stands: if it works for the user, don't change it. Every change involves an investment of time and energy which must be considered - is the amount of time to be gained by this new UI really worth the time it takes to learn it?

      Obligatory XKCD

    19. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      "Just because you're 60 and have been using these paradigms for the last 25 years doesn't mean everyone is happy with them."

      Only an ageist bigot would cast an acquired skill as a liability. Once upon a time if we weren't "happy" that we lacked a skill we'd put in the time to learn it.

    20. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Once the wheel was invented, no one wanted to go back to the tiller and no one even invented some other way to steer a car. There is something optimal in the use of the steering wheel that makes any other refinements and changes useless.

      You've gone from a good explanation of why the change happened to a complete assumption. Just because everyone uses the steering wheel doesn't make it superior. There have been other ideas, such as side-sticks. Now, it may very well be that nothing better than steering wheels have been tried (which I would personally agree with), but the fact that steering wheels got enough inertia and nothing's displaced them is not proof of this, it's proof of the power of inertia.

      The QWERTY keyboard is further proof of inertia, with a shitty UI when far better ones have been available for ages (including Dvorak and Colemak).

      Similarly the first graphic UI's were full of experimentation. Even the first Mac OS's had the menu bar in the window, but was moved out in early beta phase as the idea was that it was easier on the user to simply look always in the same place for the applications' commands, and has remained there ever since. Windows traditionally had the menu bar inside the window, with very little exceptions. However your example shows the same thing I am trying to get across: they DON'T change once they've made a decision.

      Exactly my point: inertia is all-powerful. Which is better, menu bar at the top of the screen, or inside the window? Well, we still haven't settled that: for Windows (as well as most of Linux-UI-land), it's inside the window. For MacOS (as well as Linux/Unity I believe), it's at the top of the screen. So after 30 years, we still haven't reached a consensus on this simple thing. And now some people want to toss out the menubar altogether, which we've already done with mobile device UIs. Which one is really the best? (Again, personally, as a KDE user, I actually prefer the menubar inside the application, but I'm under no illusion that my preference is "right", but rather my preference because I'm used to it. However, this doesn't extend to keyboards, where I switched to Dvorak 20 years ago, though I'm able to go back and forth easily.)

      at least in Linux land, there is a tendancy to put the menu bar as something permanent on top (at least in Unity), but many desktops still keep the in-window menu bar.

      You're twisting this; AFAIK, Unity is the *only* DE which does this; all the others don't. The way you've phrased this, you're implying that most Linux desktop uses use Unity, which is probably far from the truth (though it's pretty hard to tell since no one's done a good survey on which DEs are most popular on Linux, and they only go by the website visitation stats for particular websites).

      The mouse is a useless thing in my honest opinion

      And see here you are adopting a UI convention totally different than the vast majority of computer users, and even probably most Linux users. Not that you're wrong, but it's certainly not a popular opinion.

      In any case, my point stands: if it works for the user, don't change it.

      But different users have different preferences. Some people want to stick with the old tried-and-true because they're too lazy to learn something that might really be better. This doesn't make the old UI better, it just partially explains inertia. Other people want to switch to something different because they think it's better. Dvorak/Colemak users like me fall into this camp (at least for this one thing, it doesn't mean we do this for everything). On computers, this isn't really that hard if you use a system like KDE which is highly configurable. Almost every computer now lets you use Dvorak layouts, some DEs have more configurability than others, most let you change colors and such, some let you change fundamental things like single vs. double-click (KDE does this). Cars are different though; you can't just put the accelerator on the dashboard

    21. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      So I'm an "ageist bigot" for telling people who became masters at riding horses that they need to give that up and learn to drive a car instead? Or that people who became masters at making buggy whips that they need to give that up and learn a new profession because no one wants buggy whips any more? Or that people who became masters of texting on a 0-9 keypad featurephone need to give that up since all the new big-screen smartphones don't have keypads any more?

    22. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by jaminJay · · Score: 1

      It's always fun when someone else tries to use your keyboard (I had only changed the keymap; still QWERTY on the keycaps).

      --
      Leela: "Is all the work done by children?" Alien: "No, not the whipping."
    23. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Yes, I perhaps have the one computer in the office that no one even tries to use any longer. Even IT just leave irate sticky notes.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    24. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      I downloaded a few keyboards and settled on Minuum. Default Samsung sucks, Swiftkey was way way better at typing but still took to much space. More than 50% of my screen in landscape mode. Minuum gives me the screen space to actually see what I am typing. It could do with better prediction though.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    25. Re:Muscle memory - where UI designers go wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imperial to Metric anyone? What does the US do wrong that other countries did right there?

  12. Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    Keyboards are becoming obsolete. You can text without one on a smartphone. About the only people who will use them in 20 years will be coders, because of the different conventions for #defines, variables, etc.

    Remember Mr. Scott trying to use a computer by talking to it, and then picking up the mouse and speaking into it?

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You can text without one on a smartphone.

      And on the basis of that you think that keyboards are becoming obsolete? I can get everywhere I need to go on foot, but that doesn't mean my car is going to become obsolete.

      Keyboards will be around until something that's actually better comes along. Speech recognition certainly isn't it, no matter how good it gets.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have that backwards. Feet didn't become obsolete because of the car. And the existance of the Segway changed nothing.

    3. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Most people don't work with computers with keyboards (think point-of-sale touchscreens, etc), and when they're playing games they're using controllers. So what's more natural for them than to just say your message and hit send?

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    4. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People use keyboards for purposes other than texting.

      The reason speech recognition will never be better than keyboards is because of punctuation and line breaks. Consider dictating the following:

      "Oh! OH!" She gasped with delight. "I never thought -"

      Or trying to dictate poetry, add italics, bold, etc. Where does it put the line break? Am I going to sit here and say "stop. break. indent."? As long as we have printed words we are are going to need to manipulate them and nothing beats touching them.

      The other fatal flaw of dictation (no matter how accurate it is) is they always have a delay. You do not speak and the word instantly appear on the screen. This is because in English you really need to hear the entire thought to understand it. If I say "here", the only way the software knows I didn't mean "hear" is through context. I find it incredibly disruptive to my thought processes to not see the words appearing instantly on the screen.

      And yes, I use an ipad to do a lot of my writing.

    5. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Most people don't work with computers with keyboards (think point-of-sale touchscreens, etc)

      Pens aren't obsolete even though they're used far less in business since the invention of the typewriter.

      So what's more natural for them than to just say your message and hit send?

      It may be "natural" but there are a multitude of times and places where it would be entirely impractical or inappropriate to do so. Imagine the fun of trying to send a text via speech recognition on the bus while even just one person sitting near you is doing the same.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    6. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Keyboards are becoming obsolete. You can text without one on a smartphone. About the only people who will use them in 20 years will be coders, because of the different conventions for #defines, variables, etc.

      I assume you've never had an office job anywhere ever? In case you're new to this, those big buildings in the big smoke are filled with people at desks on computers. Those computers are all controlled via keyboard. Unless you're planning on designing a bespoke user interface for every single operation done on every computer everywhere, then I can't see the qwerty keyboard going anywhere soon.

    7. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      There is no reason the software needs to wait to get context. It can auto-correct based on the next few words when it realizes you meant "Hear" and not "Here." It's not like it's already printed and immutable.

      Italics and bold should only be added if and when necessary - and they're certainly not necessary in text messages or business letters, and not in a first draft of, say, a manuscript. Content over presentation.

      Or, if you want to do it inline, just have a few on-screen "keys" to toggle bold, italics, caps lock, quotes and other punctuation.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    8. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Imagine the fun of trying to send a text via speech recognition on the bus while even just one person sitting near you is doing the same.

      Ever try to type on a bus? Even with a laptop it's pretty much impossible. Better to spend your time reading, catching a nap, or whatever.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    9. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      "a bespoke interface" == no such animal. Interfaces are not customized to the individual user. All the programs on all those office computers are using the same interface for the same version of the program.

      I was using voice control back in Windows 3.1, and it's really improved since, so there's no need for mouse and keyboard, or even a screen, for many jobs (think screen readers for the visually handicapped).

      Combine a touch screen with voice commands and voice dictation, and kiss the keyboard bye-bye for the average job.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    10. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      "a bespoke interface" == no such animal. Interfaces are not customized to the individual user. All the programs on all those office computers are using the same interface for the same version of the program.

      Er yeah, that was my point.

      I was using voice control back in Windows 3.1, and it's really improved since, so there's no need for mouse and keyboard, or even a screen, for many jobs (think screen readers for the visually handicapped).

      Yeah they've improved from being extremely crap to mildly annoying. Still not even close to the speed and accuracy of a keyboard and mouse.

      Combine a touch screen with voice commands and voice dictation, and kiss the keyboard bye-bye for the average job.

      I can only assume you've never had an average job...

    11. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      It'd still be easier and more private than trying to use speech recognition.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    12. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Voice recognition and dictation has grown by leaps and bounds over the last few years. Maybe you should get a modern smartphone and see just how easy it is to text w/o using a keyboard nowadays, instead of talking out of you ass. (Hey, you're the one who started with the personal insults, writing "I can only assume you've never had an average job...") You are demonstrating the "failure of imagination" that too many people with a narrow world view have. While I spent LOTS of time writing code for a living, I realize that's an "edge case" - keyboards will be gone from most offices in the next 20 years, same as desktops and mice will be. In those scenarios, even a laptop is clunky and chunky.

      Won't even be needed during lectures in the colleges and universities. Just let your phone make a transcript of what's being said, and if there's something interesting on the white/black board, take a picture. Or make a video.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    13. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Again, have you ever tried to type on a moving bus? Also, most of your messages don't need to be private - "okay, I'll pick up milk on the way home", "I'm going to be 10 minutes late", and the classic "Dear John" text message - "You suck. You can't even change the roll of toilet paper. We're done."

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    14. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Again, have you ever tried to type on a moving bus?

      Again, my only point is that a keyboard is generally a far more useful and usable input method than speech recognition for such a situation and many, many others.

      Also, most of your messages don't need to be private

      Who are you to decide that?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    15. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      You are the one who brought up the bogus bus example, so don't blame me that it's weak as wet toilet paper.

      And if you believe that ANY of your messages are private, you're incredibly naive.

      The masses will always choose convenience over security. But if you're that paranoid about your text messages being public because you're not using keyboard input, maybe you shouldn't be leaving an electronic trail in the first place?

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    16. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      You are the one who brought up the bogus bus example, so don't blame me that it's weak as wet toilet paper.

      How is it weak? And in what did I blame you for said imagined weakness?

      You can point out how it might be slightly more awkward to text on a bus than when you're sitting at home until you're blue in the face, but that's not going to make up for the fact that speech recognition is going to create more problems that it would solve in that situation for most people. It'd have to work over any ambient noise, including other people trying to send text messages by babbling at their phones or - ugh! - having conversations. It would mean your texts becoming known to anyone within earshot, which plenty of people wouldn't much care for - or care to be subjected to - even if it is just about getting more milk.

      If that's fine with you, that's your choice. But do you at least see that plenty of other people won't feel that way? Can you really not imagine any circumstance in which you might not be happy with using speech recognition to send a text for privacy reasons?

      And if you believe that ANY of your messages are private, you're incredibly naive.

      I never said I believed that. Leaping from there to "well, might as well just speak my every communication out loud, it makes no difference" doesn't make a whole lot of sense though.

      Some database somewhere might well have a list of all the websites I visited last night, but that doesn't mean I'd be fine with the idea of having the list automatically posted to a website for anyone to browse.

      The masses will always choose convenience over security.

      Really? Because I'd find it really convenient not to need a key to open my front door or start my car.

      But if you're that paranoid about your text messages being public

      What's paranoid about just not wanting strangers on a bus knowing your business, no matter how mundane?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    17. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Again, your bus example is a red herring. Almost nobody writes texts on the bus because most people take the bus during peak periods, when there's no ROOM to text. And during off-peak hours, it's still too bumpy even on good roads.

      People surf the web or listen to music. That's the reality. Texting is relegated to "ok" and "cy".

      So, back to reality (which you seem not to want to do). People in offices use headsets (you know, ear buds with a microphone embedded in one of the leads). No shouting, no need to speak above the noise, and the more people doing it, the better the individual speaker is masked. Call centers are an example.

      People dealing with sensitive stuff should already have an office with a door that closes, so again, no need for a keyboard.

      And for your private stuff, do it on your own time at home, same as everyone else.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    18. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Almost nobody writes texts on the bus because most people take the bus during peak periods, when there's no ROOM to text.

      That's not been my anecdotal experience.

      And during off-peak hours, it's still too bumpy even on good roads.

      Again, not my experience. Maybe we have better roads around here, or people are more tolerant than you think. But fine, let's shift the example - which was only supposed to be about people in close proximity - to the bus station where everyone's waiting for a bus. All the points I made still stand. Ambient noise, other people speaking, and privacy. Which people do want, even if they don't need it. Try asking a real person sometime. They're funny like that.

      People in offices use headsets

      Not in my office. Surely what you mean is that people in offices will have to use headsets, should your keyboard-less future come about. Which it won't. Keyboards are far and away a more practical input device than speech recognition, certainly for many years to come, if not indefinitely.

      Being able to offer solutions to the problems that SR causes is not an argument in their favour when those problems don't exist with keyboards.

      Call centers are an example.

      In call centers headsets are a necessity. Given the choice I'm sure most people who work in one would prefer not to have to put up with the constant hub-bub. Call centers are also a great example of when speech recognition would be utterly impractical, since call center staff often need to both operate a computer and be free to speak to the person on the opposite end of the call at the same time.

      People dealing with sensitive stuff should already have an office with a door that closes, so again, no need for a keyboard.

      Again you're dictating how things must be done in your keyboard-less utopia, instead of making the argument for why people should prefer SR over keyboards. "Sensitivity" is also a sliding scale, like privacy, and there are plenty of things on it that'll fall into the "doesn't need a separate office, but doesn't need to be blurting it out loud" category for which a keyboard is more than adequate.

      And for your private stuff, do it on your own time at home, same as everyone else.

      There you go again, dictating when and how I should do something. Are there only two places people ever go, work and home? And why must they be expected to happily forego any notion of privacy when they're not in the latter?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    19. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Analog24 · · Score: 1

      So, back to reality (which you seem not to want to do) This is pretty ironic coming from someone who is clearly out of touch with reality. Almost every statement you make is a blanket assumption and most of them probably aren't even true for average person. Just because what you do and where you work allows you use voice recognition does not mean that the entire population has those circumstances. Almost nobody writes texts on the bus I DO text on the bus and any other form of public transportation, all the time. And I wouldn't want other people to hear my conversation, not just for my sake but out of respect for other people's space as well (although not everyone shares this feeling, as many of us have probably experienced). People in offices use headsets Where I work NOONE uses headsets. As with the last comment, it would be extremely rude and annoying if myself or one of my colleagues were talking into their computer all day. Not EVERYONE works in an isolated cubicle or somewhere else that provides a level of sound insulation. The majority of people in the world don't even use smartphones yet. A touchtone phone with T9 is still the norm for the majority of the world's population. Those people aren't about to switch to voice recognition anytime soon. So realize that keyboards will play a role for the majority of the world for a long time, they're not about to become obsolete anytime soon. I'm glad you're privileged enough with a compatible enough line of work to use voice dictation but perhaps you should try to fix your narrow world view. Seriously, you're grasping at straws and you have been for a while with all your generalizations and false assumptions. I don't think anyone will disagree that voice dictation is going to become a bigger part of our life but you're kidding yourself if you think that keyboards are going to disappear from the world or even smartphones in 20 years.

    20. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Analog24 · · Score: 1
      Formatting got screwed up before, so here it is in an easier to parse format.

      So, back to reality (which you seem not to want to do)

      This is pretty ironic coming from someone who is clearly out of touch with reality. Almost every statement you make is a blanket assumption and most of them probably aren't even true for average person. Just because what you do and where you work allows you use voice recognition does not mean that the entire population has those circumstances.

      Almost nobody writes texts on the bus

      I DO text on the bus and any other form of public transportation, all the time. And I wouldn't want other people to hear my conversation, not just for my sake but out of respect for other people's space as well (although not everyone shares this feeling, as many of us have probably experienced).

      People in offices use headsets...

      Where I work NOONE uses headsets. As with the last comment, it would be extremely rude and annoying if myself or one of my colleagues were talking into their computer all day. Not EVERYONE works in an isolated cubicle or somewhere else that provides a level of sound insulation.

      The majority of people in the world don't even use smartphones yet. A touchtone phone with T9 is still the norm for the majority of the world's population. Those people aren't about to switch to voice recognition anytime soon. So realize that keyboards will play a role for the majority of the world for a long time, they're not about to become obsolete anytime soon. I'm glad you're privileged enough with a compatible enough line of work to use voice dictation but perhaps you should try to fix your narrow world view.

      Seriously, you're grasping at straws and you have been for a while with all your generalizations and false assumptions. I don't think anyone will disagree that voice dictation is going to become a bigger part of our life but you're kidding yourself if you think that keyboards are going to disappear from the world or even smartphones in 20 years.

    21. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Keep your head buried in the sand. The same was said about mice. And electric cars. And computers that were small enough to be "luggable". And a space station. And heart transplants.

      Ever work in an "open office plan"? If only one person is talking on the phone, everyone can hear what they're saying. If everyone is talking, no individual voice is distinguishable. So, not a problem. Personally, I found such floor plans very distracting when coding, but bosses be bosses, and a decent music collection mitigates the problem - which is what a lot of us did, so we were wearing ear buds all day. The integrated mics on the newer ones are pretty damn good.

      So perhaps you are the one who should fix their narrow world view.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    22. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Now you're really reaching. "The majority of people in the world don't even use smartphones yet. A touchtone phone with T9 is still the norm for the majority of the world's population."

      First, t9 sucks. Text-to-speech is already better.

      Second, world-wide sales of smart phones have exceeded feature phones since 2013. With a billion sold per year, it will be only a few years before the majority of the world's existing feature phones are replaced with smartphones.

      Third, you're obviously not a programmer, because with the shift to open floor plans programmers have been using ear buds for years to listen to music, and even todays cheap earbuds have mics that work really well.

      Fourth, just because you write text on the bus doesn't mean the majority of people do. I see them playing games or surfing the net or listening to music. Instead of texting, they'll call, because it's easier and quicker.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    23. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Analog24 · · Score: 1

      I wonder if you'll ever realize that making overreaching generalizations with zero supporting evidence, other than your own biased personal experience, isn't going to convince anyone of anything and only makes you sound dumber.

      You're either extremely ignorant, extremely stubborn, or a troll. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're the latter at this point. Otherwise, I hope you're better at programming than arguing why keyboards are becoming obsolete.

    24. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      You might want to take your own advice from your first paragraph. After all, you were wrong about the majority of the world using T9 (it's only one of several systems of text entry used on feature phones).

      Your first paragraph is ironic given that you base your comments on YOUR experience.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    25. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Analog24 · · Score: 1

      If you could grasp context you would understand that it's not ironic. The whole point of my comment was to give you examples from MY personal experience that show your statements are incorrect.

      I never said that the majority of the world's population uses T9 but it was poor phrasing on my part. I meant that the majority of the world uses feature phones and those feature phones almost all come with some type of T9 like input. It was beside the point anyways.

    26. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Really? Not ironic? Here's what you said :

      I wonder if you'll ever realize that making overreaching generalizations with zero supporting evidence, other than your own biased personal experience, isn't going to convince anyone of anything and only makes you sound dumber.

      And now you're claiming that your own biased personal experience counts:

      f you could grasp context you would understand that it's not ironic. The whole point of my comment was to give you examples from MY personal experience that show your statements are incorrect.

      On second thought, it's not ironic - it's deeply hypocritical AND trolling. Especially when you followed it up with:

      You're either extremely ignorant, extremely stubborn, or a troll. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're the latter at this point. Otherwise, I hope you're better at programming than arguing why keyboards are becoming obsolete.

      Now in the end it doesn't matter, since time will prove me right. If you're going to troll, you need to do way better than that. And if you're not trolling, you need to look in the mirror to see the cause for why your argument is hypocritical.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    27. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Analog24 · · Score: 1

      I wasn't trying to prove anything with my experiences, I was disproving your assumptions. It takes a lot of supporting evidence to prove something, it only takes one counter example to disprove something.

      This one should be simple enough for you to grasp but I look forward to your completely misguided and illogical response.

    28. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      One. More. Time. As I've said many times, your bus example is a red herring. And your experience certainly doesn't agree with what I've seen, so the whole thing is anecdotal on both sides.

      Now take a look at something that's objectively true. It's illegal in many jurisdictions to hold a phone in your hand while driving, so here's a huge financial incentive to use voice commands and speech-to-text. Not just from the fines, but also the increased insurance premiums and demerit points going forward.

      Offices I already covered. Since you dismissed it, it's obvious you never worked in an office with an open floor plan or a cube farm.

      And you are still a hypocrite.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    29. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Voice recognition and dictation has grown by leaps and bounds over the last few years.

      Yeah but it's still shit.

      Maybe you should get a modern smartphone and see just how easy it is to text w/o using a keyboard nowadays, instead of talking out of you ass.

      I have and it's shit.

      You are demonstrating the "failure of imagination" that too many people with a narrow world view have.

      Or maybe I know something you don't. Plenty of research done in this area, there's reasons why it's not commonly used, nor will be. Maybe you have "failure to filter hype over reality"

      While I spent LOTS of time writing code for a living, I realize that's an "edge case" - keyboards will be gone from most offices in the next 20 years, same as desktops and mice will be. In those scenarios, even a laptop is clunky and chunky.

      But more still the most efficient and effect type of input, by a long way

      Won't even be needed during lectures in the colleges and universities. Just let your phone make a transcript of what's being said, and if there's something interesting on the white/black board, take a picture. Or make a video.

      Part of the memory process is actually writing stuff down. I don't think you have a full grasp of all the issues associated with human-machine input.

    30. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Funny how you say it's still sh*t when those who try it can use it without even having to train the speech recognition engine (and it gets getter as the engine adapts to the speaker).

      As for the reason it's not commonly used, that's mostly inertia. People don't know that their Windows laptop or Android phone can do speech recognition. When I do it on mine, they say "hey - that's not an iPhone!" So then I show them how to do it on their own device (phone or tablet) and they really like it.

      Also, you're wrong - speech is far more efficient than a keyboard. Even if you can do 100 wpm, that's far below the 150-160 wpm that audio books are recorded at, or the 150-200 wpm of conversations. Let the device handle the transcription and pay attention to what's actually being said.

      Teachers couldn't figure out why I never took notes. I told them that if I didn't understand it, you can be sure others don't either, but they're too busy writing it down to notice. So I would always ask for clarification, and once I got it, who needs notes? Of course, most students are too afraid of looking stupid by asking questions, so they actually end up stupid because they're "learning by rote", which is not learning.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    31. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Funny how you say it's still sh*t when those who try it can use it without even having to train the speech recognition engine (and it gets getter as the engine adapts to the speaker).

      As for the reason it's not commonly used, that's mostly inertia. People don't know that their Windows laptop or Android phone can do speech recognition. When I do it on mine, they say "hey - that's not an iPhone!" So then I show them how to do it on their own device (phone or tablet) and they really like it.

      We're all techno-philes here, this is a nerd site. Perhaps your one use case is different from the rest of the world where we don't all speak with American accents. I hate typing and have been actively seeking alternatives for decades. They are all shit for me all the the people I know. I have tested this with numerous people over the years and the result is always the same. I don't type because I like it, I type because it works.

      Also, you're wrong - speech is far more efficient than a keyboard.

      Speech is. Speech recognition isn't. I can only assume you live somewhere where everyone talks the same. I live in a extremely multicultural place where accents make machine recognition next to useless.

    32. Re:Keyboards are becoming obsolete by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      You assume wrong. Montreal has LOTS of different languages and accents. Stop being so parochial, mkay :-)

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  13. Re:Slower typing = few errors by Analog24 · · Score: 1

    You're right, people do get lazier after they adjust to using a new input mechanism and their error rate goes up. The same thing would likely happen if people used the keyboard we presented but there would be fewer errors than you get on a QWERTY keyboard. The main point of the analysis was to reduce the total number of possible errors.

  14. The purpose of Swype by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    The purpose of Swype is to speed up typing on a touchscreen in an easy to use and intuitive way.

    How do you think completely changing the layout that people have been learning for the past 140 years will be received? If swype didn't fit with existing keyboards no one would use it.

    1. Re:The purpose of Swype by Analog24 · · Score: 0

      You should try actually reading the article before making comments about it. In particular, I think you'll find the section titled "Conclusions" of interest. Also, plenty of people use alternative keyboards so you're last point is a bit of an exaggeration.

    2. Re:The purpose of Swype by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      If only there were some examples of everyone quickly learning how to interface with their phone in a new way...

      Kids even mastered the horrendous "multi-tap" rather than use valuable minutes on their phones.

      T9 dramatically improved upon multi-tap despite requiring a new usage pattern and some training time. If someone comes up with a similar improvement over the iPhone-style finger poke and Swype-style entry systems, people will adopt it.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:The purpose of Swype by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      T9 is a terrible example for two reasons.

      First, T9 was "clearly to the left of the uncanny valley" - the number pad is clearly not a rearranged QWERTY arrangement of keys, so the existing muscle memory doesn't apply. Moreover, the use of the letters on the phone keypad, while not a regular way of entering text up until that point, was still at least loosely familiar to anyone who needed to dial a vanity 800-number.

      Second, the fact that "feature phones", aka "messaging phones" or "dumb phones with a QWERTY keyboard" were a huge market in the 2004(ish)-2009(ish) period indicates that T9 was very clearly considered nothing more than a stopgap measure. Alternatively, the mass adoption of feature phones and smartphones would lend credence to the possibility that T9 was an acceptable means of text entry for the very small amount of text that was generally going into a phone at that time, but the ceiling was quickly reached.

      Bonus round: People will adopt an optimization to Swype and Swiftkey, just as they were adopted as an extension of the iPhone and older Android keyboards...as long as their existing knowledge is still useful. Knowing how to type on a QWERTY keyboard is useful when you need to type in a last name, and number pad dialing is still used for good ol' fashioned phone calls. If an optimized arrangement of the keys is genuinely helpful, then we'd be seeing an arrangement of keys that puts the vowels toward the edges to facilitate thumb typing...but we don't see keyboards like that gaining any meaningful traction. "Flow" (discussed by me and a few others further down in the thread) largely solves these problems, but it's in the 10K-50K range, rather than Swype and Swiftkey, in the 10M-100M realms.

    4. Re:The purpose of Swype by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      T9 was terrible. I could never understand why people bothered to use it, or, indeed, any kind of "predicitive" or assisted text input. The first thing I did was to switch it off; it was far faster to press each key multiple times and know exactly what you had typed than it was to have to read it back again, process in your head whether it was correct and then, if necessary, flick through the alternatives to find the word you wanted.

      I feel much the same way about similar input methods for contemporary devices. In general, I prefer to get good at quickly using an ostensibly slower input method that works predictably than to use something that, while ostensibly faster, requires much greater concentration to use and is therefore slower, because it is so much less predictable.

    5. Re:The purpose of Swype by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You forget your history. T9 was an alternative to the alpha-numeric based system that has existed since the touchtone telephone. T9 is to the 12 keys on the old Nokia brick as Swype is to the QWERTY keyboard. People interfaced with their phone in a new way but using an existing and widely adopted keypad, and iTap is a logical extension.

      Neither technology attempted to move about or change the underlying keypad. "A" was still on the top left of every phone, "Z" was still second bottom row right. The only thing that changed is not having to double tap keys and not finish typing the word.

    6. Re:The purpose of Swype by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      While the keypad was around for decades, people were only using it to enter text in rare circumstances - 1-800-MATTRESS and the like. Only with the advent of SMS did people need to start entering a lot of text. People did NOT have the letters memorized until after SMS came into being, and in fact the old touch tone pad lacks certain letters altogether. So you had people quickly memorizing the keypad in a short period of time, and in fact inventing an entire "texting" shorthand language - then completely changing behavior again with the invention of T9/iTap/etc.

      Once you have kids firing off messages 3x as fast as other kids, whatever method would take over. Slightly changing the key layout will not be this event - it has to be more substantial.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    7. Re:The purpose of Swype by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Again think of what and why in history.

      I would have no qualms in learning a new keyboard layout if the QWERTY keyboard suddenly de-materialised all over the world. That was what happened to kids sending SMSes. There were very few phones with a full keyboard layout. In absence of an alternative people will not sit around idly, just like the reason we are all used to typing on QWERTY keyboards now is because of how prolific they are.

      If you're talking about getting people to optionally give up some keyboard layout in favour of another when they have a perfectly good solution already, then you're dead in the water. So far neither T9 nor Swype have presented that barrier as all they do is change the subtle motor motions people make rather than affect people's memory. That is the key that is missing to your behaviour change equation. Not lifting my thumb is a world of difference to not knowing where I need to move it next.

      You may not remember the old world, but I can recall almost monthly some article somewhere talking about changing the layout or keypads on those old dumb phones to improve typing speeds. None of them took off because of the well established standard that people were forced to adopt. I say forced, because we were, we didn't do it voluntarily, just like I didn't start typing on a QWERTY keyboard voluntarily.

    8. Re:The purpose of Swype by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I would have no qualms in learning a new keyboard layout if the QWERTY keyboard suddenly de-materialised all over the world.

      I'm simply suggesting that you might also be willing to learn a new keyboard layout if it made you some magic number more productive. The magic number will be different for different people, obviously, but it exists for most people.

      You may not remember the old world, but I can recall almost monthly some article somewhere talking about changing the layout or keypads on those old dumb phones to improve typing speeds.

      I remember the articles, but the only company that I can recall actually following through was RIM. It obviously never took off, and I'm in agreement that simply shuffling around a keyboard will not be enough to make the masses shift - it would have to be more dramatic than that.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  15. Done long ago by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

    https://play.google.com/store/...

    I used that app back in 2012, and it wasn't just-out-of-beta then, either. When I used it, it effectively solved all of its intended problems: common letter combinations were in close proximity, and there were fewer "word collisions" than with Swype ("or" vs "our" immediately coming to mind).

    The problem I found was the fact that while Flow is more accurate, it took me significantly longer to type out a message because I wasn't used to the layout. I've spent over 20 years on a QWERTY keyboard, and even though Flow is more efficient, QWERTY is basically like breathing for me, so any statistically-better keyboard would still be slower because I'd be re-learning to type all over again. Even with errors, I'm personally still a Swype person at heart. I've even tried Swiftkey and Go, but even there what holds me back is knowing where the punctuation keys are. The only alternate keyboard I'll use is "Hacker's Keyboard" when I find myself in an SSH session, but other than that, Swype got me in early in the WinMo 6.5 days, and has never let go.

  16. Try Flow keyboard by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 1

    Flow is another keyboard designed along similar lines, though it's optimized for slightly different criteria: fast text entry rather than low error rate. It takes a while to get used to, but you really can type a lot faster with it.

    --
    "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
  17. Chording by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The important thing with novel keyboard layouts is that people need to be able to feel confident that they will stick around. I'm not going to want to learn to use a new layout if I don't think it will still be a viable option in three years' time. It takes a long time to build up proficiency with a new layout.

    Personally, I think the optimum solution would be some type of hardware-based, single-handed chording keyboard. Unfortunately, that suffers the same problem to an even greater degree, because it takes even longer to learn how to use such an input device.

  18. Shorthand by dovgr · · Score: 1

    The work of finding fast input methods was done more than a century ago and it resulted in a wealth of different Shorthand systems, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... systems. I'm still waiting for someone to write an input method using one of these systems. This should be much faster than even an optimal swype based system. The downside is the learning curve, which is probably very long.

    1. Re:Shorthand by Analog24 · · Score: 1

      There's no way it would be faster than an optimal swype based system. Shorthand works well for a small subset of words, once you need to use a word outside of that subset you need to start "spelling" the word out in shorthand. This would be drastically slower than using swype.

  19. NIN Keyboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nobody here has used hipjot (formerly NIN I believe) for iOS?
    You can type faster on this than you can with a physical keyboard, easily.
    https://youtu.be/E7ktz8pHbYc

  20. Obvious choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alas, simply use the American English keyboard. Other parts of the world can use their local toys if they want to be different.

  21. Simulated annealing by dhasenan · · Score: 1

    In the T9 section we employed a random walk optimization. For the swipe optimization we use a similar approach but gradually reduce the number of random swaps over time so that the keyboard settles into a local minimum.

    A random walk with hops being shortened over time is called "simulated annealing". It's an alternative to genetic algorithms and tends to be easier to use for problems with solutions that can't be chopped up and put together in a coherent format. For instance, keyboard layouts, which require each key to be present exactly once.

    1. Re:Simulated annealing by Analog24 · · Score: 1

      This isn't strictly simulated annealing. We are aware of the similarities and we mention it in the article, simulated annealing was the motivation for our approach. However, to be considered a proper simulated annealing algorithm you're fitness function has to be in the form of a Boltzmann distribution, which ours was not although it could have been.

  22. - he accidentally what? - a letter. by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

    QWERY keyboard layou is the bes, you insensiive clod!

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