Cosmic Rays Could Reveal Secrets of Lightning On Earth

sciencehabit writes: Despite Benjamin Franklin's best efforts with a kite and a key, the phenomenon of lightning remains a scientific enigma. Now, researchers have developed a new tool that could help them solve some of lightning's mysteries. By using cosmic rays, space-traveling particles that constantly rain down on our atmosphere, scientists report they can peek inside thunderstorms and measure their electric fields, helping them pinpoint the conditions that cause storms' electrical outbursts. The advance could help researchers predict more precisely when and where lightning is most likely to strike and get people out of harm's way in time.

Comments

image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[circletimessquare]

I thought cosmic rays trigger lightning.

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[Anonymous Coward]

nah, tall clouds completing circuit between ionosphere and the ground. Bonus point: explain how clouds work!

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[Nyder]

I thought cosmic rays trigger lightning.

Nope, cosmic rays created The Fantastic Four and many more: http://marvel.wikia.com/Catego...

Also a toon named Cosmic Ray: http://www.comicvine.com/cosmi...

Didn't seem to find any DC toons who's superpowers came from cosmic rays. I didn't look very hard though.

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[Neil Boekend]

Hardly. The field strength between thunder clouds and the earth alone is not enough for lightning.
Yes there are a million volts present. No that is not enough to arc over 1,5 km (1 mile) (distance bottom of an average thunder cloud to the ground). It is approximately enough for 100 meters (1/15th of the required distance) according to the 1 kV/cm rule of thumb.
Current theory states that high speed cosmic particles ionize the air so the lightning can arc.

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[itzly]

Yes there are a million volts present.

Voltage can be 100 million for negative lightning to 1 billion Volt for positive.

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[Lumpy]

It's all static electricity. nothing more.

how it builds as pockets, that is the part they are trying to figure out.

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[DigiShaman]

Then explain lightning from the ground-up? I'll include the following quote form nssl.noaa.gov

Q: Does lightning strike from the sky down, or the ground up?
A: The answer is both. Cloud-to-ground lightning comes from the sky down, but the part you see comes from the ground up. A typical cloud-to-ground flash lowers a path of negative electricity (that we cannot see) towards the ground in a series of spurts. Objects on the ground generally have a positive charge. Since opposites attract, an upward streamer is sent out from the object about to be struck. When these two paths meet, a return stroke zips back up to the sky. It is the return stroke that produces the visible flash, but it all happens so fast - in about one-millionth of a second - so the human eye doesn't see the actual formation of the stroke.

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[Anonymous Coward]

This article is based on the study of one storm. Better to wait until many storms are studied and actual lightning strikes are predicted with enough accuracy to make it worthwhile. Pure hype at this point.

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[PPH]

Current theory states that high speed cosmic particles ionize the air so the lightning can arc.

Seems plausible. The Pacific DC Intertie operates at 1 MV line to line (500 kV line to ground). This is a greater field strength than cloud to ground lightning, but it doesn't flash over (nearly as often). So lightning must depend on some property or phenomena that occurs at higher altitudes, but not at or near ground level.

P.S. Extra points for that 'current theory' pun.

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[circletimessquare]

science!

you can't explain it

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't always just about the electric field across the whole gap, and anyone who's worked with spark gaps and high voltage equipment will likely have some experience with this. There is a breakdown potential both for a gap, and for a given radius of curvature, where a sharp point can break down way before the whole gap can break down. The result is ionization of air near the point, and the spread of charge into the air. If you have a large potential still applied, the tip of that breakdown itself may have a small radius of curvature, and the arc grows. The geometry of the situation matters a lot, as you can get corona discharge without a huge breakdown across large gaps, but you can also create arcs across large distances without ever coming close to the breakdown you would naively expect using just the distance and electric field strength.

Re:image lightning? you mean seed lightning

[Kobun]

Check this out, especially at 2:44 onwards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Obligatory XKCD

[Anonymous Coward]

https://xkcd.com/538/

Murder

[Anonymous Coward]

First thing I thought of was telling my bitch whore of a sister that I forgive her and inviting her out to precisely the spot where lightning would strike...

solved problem

[Anonymous Coward]

This doesn't need research, or grants, or unemployed post-docs working on it. It's rain. It's a thunderstorm. Go inside.

Seriously, have we degenerated as a culture to the point where we need scientists telling people to stay inside during a thunderstorm?

Re:solved problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Shortsighted. The long term goal is of course a weather modification net that can moderate severe weather, distribute rain to make up for global warming and ease drought conditions, etc. In order to do that you have to fully understand weather. You don't just need to know enough to go in out of the rain. You need to understand causes in order to be able to produce / reduce / redirect, etc. weather.

Re:solved problem

[Anonymous Coward]

That's shortsighted. If you get rid of weather, or say... the entire planet... you don't have any of those problems.

Re:solved problem

[smooth wombat]

Seriously, have we degenerated as a culture to the point where we need scientists telling people to stay inside during a thunderstorm?

Apparently so. And again, and again and again.

Re:solved problem

[Applehu Akbar]

Wrong, and not just because you would appreciate some warning if lightning were to strike your bridge.

There are some strange things going on in thunderstorms (sprites, gamma rays, etc.) that point to the existence of low-energy nuclear reactions. We really need to know more about internal structure and process in thunderstorms.

Re:solved problem

[oldmac31310]

So, best not attend ball games, the beach or parking lots in case of a one in several million chance of being struck? Meh

Re:solved problem

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some strange things going on in thunderstorms (sprites, gamma rays, etc.) that point to the existence of low-energy nuclear reactions.

So far they are doing a good job of pointing toward regular high energy reactions, looking pretty similar to ones in the lab under much more controlled conditions. It is more a question of how the necessary conditions come up than if there is some new reaction unlike ones seen before.

Re:solved problem

[Anonymous Coward]

This doesn't need research, or grants, or unemployed post-docs working on it. It's rain. It's a thunderstorm. Go inside. Seriously, have we degenerated as a culture to the point where we need scientists telling people to stay inside during a thunderstorm?

Most people aren't scared of getting wet. I enjoy being rained on and love a good storm. Since I own a swimming pool next to a two story house and surrounded by even taller trees I wondered how there could be much risk. I did some research and couldn't come up with any scientific sounding reason for not swimming during a storm. Yes, don't stand on an open field, a beach or in open water, where you are the tallest thing around. That's really dangerous, but if I'm in the water? I'm not on the path of least resistance. Not even close. Sadly, the only source of information about lightning danger seems to be the National Lightning Scaredycat Institute who believes that not only should I stay inside cowering in fear, but that I also shouldn't touch any electrical appliances or use any plumbing. This even though I'm more likely to die taking a shower than from lightning. That said, I do not swim during lightning storms. I do swim during rain without lightning and it's really fun.

Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cosmic Rays Could Reveal Secrets of Lightning On Earth

Or maybe they won't

It will make a great phone app

[Anonymous Coward]

"You will be hit by lightening in 4ms. Take evasive action."

Re:It will make a great phone app

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently, this app won't know the difference between lightning and lightening.

Re:It will make a great phone app

[Applehu Akbar]

Vitiligo is ugly, but it doesn't strike that fast.

Rule 1 of Science Journalism: Overstate Ignorance

[Maritz]

"We know absolutely fuck all about lightening, what the fuck is it? Nobody has the slightest clue. BUT NOW WE ARE GOING TO CRACK IT THANKS TO THIS ONE DISCOVERY"

Just introduced Vlad to a friend of mine

[Anonymous Coward]

Just introduced Vlad to a friend of mine and it was a really fun conversation. He was really interested and was asking all kind of the right questions. When people don't show interest I quickly change the subject though.
I just brought it up when he wet farted loudly and it went naturally from there. Somehow it clicked with him and he was really interested from the start. I farted a small amount and he's going to eat the right foods to play around with.
It kind of blew his mind. I just explained top level stuff like Marticock, Reza, 20721 but also told him about the volatility and the smell since 1997.
I think the Vlad fanbase just got a bit bigger.

Lightning never strikes twice

[hcs_$reboot]

Provided that Lightning never strikes (the same place) twice, just keep statistics and you'll know at least when it won't strike again.

Re:Lightning never strikes twice

[hcs_$reboot]

s/when/where/

Re:Lightning never strikes twice

[antiperimetaparalogo]

Provided that Lightning never strikes (the same place) twice, [...]

Thank Zeus for not providing that!

Re:Lightning never strikes twice

[Anonymous Coward]

After a lightning strike... the place isn't the same.

Re:Rule 1 of Science Journalism: Overstate Ignoran

[itzly]

"And we're going to save lives because of this!!!1!!"

Re:Rule 1 of Science Journalism: Overstate Ignoran

[Maritz]

lol yes my bad I forgot that bit.

Think Diff'rent

[DrunkenTerror]

Have you noticed that the pattern of lightning is quite similar to the pattern of cracks in a stone or fault lines inside Terra? Lightning isn't a sparky thing that shoots across a gap. It's actually more like an earthquake along a fault line. The phenomenon we call lightning is what occurs when regions of magnetelectrospacetime have drifted and contorted apart far enough that they can no longer maintain congruity. The separate regions shift and the gaps between them close up an the speed of light. The sound and light is a result of that magnetoelectrospacetime fault line between the differing regions.
 
  tl;dr: Lightning isn't a thing, it's a manifestation of fractures in reality.

Re:Think Diff'rent

[Anonymous Coward]

Electromagnetic spacetime sounds better than magnetoelectrospacetime. This actually makes sense. I've always thought reality was somewhat distorted in the midwest.

Never EVER

[Anonymous Coward]

Masturbate during a lightning storm.

Hmmmm

[50000BTU_barbecue]

I have a mile or so of 40ga copper wire and a few model rockets here... What can I do with these two things?

Re:Hmmmm

[pcolaman]

Create your own space program.

Re:Hmmmm

[Muad'Dave]

You can call down lightning. I wouldn't suggest it, but I know it can be done. The trick is _safely_ triggering the launch without getting fried.

Re:Hmmmm

[50000BTU_barbecue]

I know... The problem I see is how the wire unspools so quickly. The firing of the rocket is trivial to me. Either a garden hose and a foot pump and use pneumatics, or a simple RF link but this might be a problem during an electrical storm...

Re:Hmmmm

[Tablizer]

Be a modern day Ben Franklin, per kite experiment.

Re:Hmmmm

[Muad'Dave]

Use very thin wire in a large loop on the ground (or a piece of plywood) so it spools off the top (really the side of the pile) easily. Using an actual reel won't work at those speeds.

More LOFAR info

[RogerWilco]

Here is a presentation by Pim Schellaert (referenced in the article) with some more information:
http://www.lofar.org/wiki/lib/...

I've seen a presentation of their more recent results, but that doesn't seem to be public yet, I can't find a link.

One of the coolest things we did recently with the LOFAR telescope was to observe the Solar Eclipse in real time, I think it has never been done with a radio telescope before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

In general you can find a lot of info about what we're doing with the LOFAR telescope here:
http://www.astron.nl/dailyimag...
and here: http://www.lofar.org/wiki/doku...

Can these cosmic rays...

[Anonymous Coward]

..also perhaps explain me why Systemd sucks so much?

Re:Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

GO FUCK YOUR STUPID SELF

Re:Rule 1 of Science Journalism: Overstate Ignoran

[oldmac31310]

Think of the children whose lives will be saved.

SHAZAM!!!

[cmdr_klarg]

Just filler text here, just move along nothing to see...

Another Bullshit Risk

[gweihir]

While getting killed by lightening strike is far more likely than getting killed by terrorism, there is absolutely no sane reason to "get people out of harm's way", it is just far, far too unlikely to happen to be relevant. Now, making traffic and food safer, that would actually safe lives, but lightening? Madness!