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How MMO Design Has Improved Bar Trivia

Polygon.com features a look at how (very) different computer game worlds can meet, in the form of game designer Ralph Koster's Kitchen Disasters-style rescue effort to revive a game quite unlike the ones he's famous for designing, like Ultima Online. Bar-trivia provider Buzztime has been putting electronic trivia games into bars for three decades -- and in that time, the number of options available to potential players has jumped. Bar trivia has crept into the domain of things like vinyl-based juke-boxes: not without appeal, but not exactly modern. Koster has tried to apply modern game design paradigms and objectives, and revamped the game: Koster's Jackpot Trivia is now being introduced in a few hundred locations. Buzztime operates in around 4,000 bars and restaurants, but already the new addition has increased game usage by 15 percent. Much of the improvements came from Koster's experiences of making and playing MMOs, and on the MMO's influence on all games. "These days, a lot of the qualities of MMOs are popping up on everything from social media to systems that sit outside and on top of games, like everything around Xbox Live and Steam," he says. The re-vamp means, for Buzztime, better matching of opponents, as part of an overall redesign of incentives and risks: players have also gotten finer-grained control over their plays, by being able to assign weight to their answers: that means they can guess with less penalty when answers are tough, or take advantage of confidence in knowledge about a category in which they're strong.

22 comments

  1. Addicts by CaptQuark · · Score: 1

    So the game is attempting to find a balance that both trivia masters and compulsive gamblers can enjoy.

    ~~

    1. Re:Addicts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if it's such a good idea to introduce alcohol addicts to gambling. What could possibly go wrong?

      Coming soon: The new Facebook app that gives people daily/weekly/monthly/yearly points for posting about not succumbing to addictive behaviors. :D

    2. Re:Addicts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By allowing you to assign weight, they have changed a pure knowledge/trivia game to something even the most uneducated person can occasionally win, provided he gets a few questions he actually knows the answer to.

  2. They should change their name back to NTN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I only have 15 million points, but I didn't play 9 month out of last year.

    Buzztime really need to expand their question pool, and stop making 'France' the default answer to questions about Europe.

    While I'm ranting, in Georgia, we don't care if there aren't any California bars playing the lunchtime games, give us back our 30 minute games starting at 1:30pm.

  3. Re:Polygon. by Hognoxious · · Score: 0

    I agree. The other festering shitholes deserve a turn too: hothardware, startswithabang, technology trends...

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  4. What MMO design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The headline and the article say it's "MMO design" but the design described in the article seems to have nothing to do with MMOs. So this guy worked on a couple of really old MMOs (before or after Star Wars Galaxies destroyed itself in a redesign, I wonder?), and now is taking PVP balancing experience to a new field.

    Except he's not trying to balance PVP so much as he is trying to level the playing field. It's an interesting bit of game design, I guess. It's too bad that whoever wrote the article clearly has no clue what they're talking about and has decided "MMO" will translate to page views. Which I guess worked since the otherwise entirely unremarkable story is here.

    I have no idea what this has to do with MMOs. Not that it really matters, since MMOs are a dying genre. The last, and really only, great MMO remains World of Warcraft. Nothing has come close to replacing it, and there's no sign anything ever will. Yet it's losing players as people get bored with it, and those players end up just leaving the genre entirely. So it's just as well that he isn't really using MMO design, people have mostly decided MMOs just aren't a type of game that they're interested in.

    Also, seriously, Slashdot, fix your broken related stories thing. You seem to have a bunch of non-tech related crap listed as "related articles."

    1. Re:What MMO design? by towermac · · Score: 2

      Yeah it worked; here we are reading and posting on it...

      But MMOs aren't dying. Well, the games are, but I don't think the genre is done. The most fun I've ever had in my whole life, while sitting down and looking at a screen, was rated battlegrounds in Warcraft. Whitewater rafting, helicopter rides; sailing a Hobie cat; those are things that are more fun than an MMO at its best.

      I think its just a stagnating thing, not a dying thing. Blizzard's success has hurt the industry, and then they hurt themselves. Warcraft becoming stagnant makes the whole industry stagnant. It's not like Warcraft could be copied, improved, and sold; the law doesn't allow it. But Warcraft did blaze the way.

      Soon, hopefully, a game will come out that eliminates WoWs weaknesses and allows the genre to grow again. Off the top of my head:

      Do away with leveling.
      Do away with Xpacs.
      Never allow real money into the game economy.
      Make your money only through subscription / buying time.
      (Fees for server moves and the anniversary glowy mount are OK)
      Never change a player's powers from PVP to PVE or zone to zone.
      Never change the existing game world. (Additions are obviously OK)

      An MMO is the virtual world that the internet promised us. It could be bigger than Facebook. Everything Facebook has, plus you can do battle in the middle of the street if you want. And fly on a dragon. Or be one. It's coming. How long is what I don't know.

    2. Re:What MMO design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Language evolves, granddad. In this century "MMO" == "any online game".

    3. Re:What MMO design? by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually leveling is fine if done correctly so that the user can see and feel they are making progress towards their goal without it being grindtastic. Same goes for real money and paying for time, as long as it doesn't become pay to win and merely gives you relatively minor enhancements.

      For me a perfect example of one that "gets it right" not only in the level progression but also in the FTP with real money purchases realm is one I'm currently enjoying, namely War Thunder. In that game leveling your tank/plane and crew is done by playing well, not only getting kills but actually assisting your teammates and completing the objectives. Can you buy a better crew or premium vehicles? Sure but if you don't actually play well you could throw a million bux at it and still suck ass. The same goes with their "premium vehicles" which are all either 1.- Famous vehicles such as Jimmy Thatch's Buffalo from '39 which performs virtually identical to a regular Buffalo and just has a cool paint scheme, or 2.- rare/prototype vehicles that were tested and rejected during the war or were produced in very small quantities. These vehicles have significant downsides but people like them for the "weirdness" factor. Examples include the American Ascender pusher prop or the Soviet "land battleships" like the T-35 and SMK.

      But in WT it doesn't matter if you level your vehicle by playing matches or spending golden eagles, doesn't matter if you buy every premium vehicle in the game or just take the vehicles you get from research, at the end of the day you have to play well, keep your head on a swivel, be aware of where friendly and enemy forces are, and know the strengths and weakness of your plane/tank and that of the enemy or you are just gonna get wrecked. I have seen a tier 1 biplane just demolish a tier 3 BF109 who tried to get in a turning fight with it, watched the reserve tanks you get for free at the start just slaughter premium tanks (in fact the Soviet BTs are quite popular even with seasoned pros for how fast they are) whose drivers obviously thought that it was pay to win, because it all comes down to playing well. The same goes for paying for premium time, it lets you earn more XP and add more stickers to your tank but if you suck? You aren't gonna go anywhere fast.

      So I think most if not all that you listed is doable, it just has to be done well. Make the content available to everybody, make real money not be a deciding factor in the game, allow the player to see they are progressing towards their goal,reward playing well, and if you are gonna go with a mix of FTP and subscription do it so both sides are on equal footing play wise.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    4. Re:What MMO design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do away with leveling.
      Do away with Xpacs.
      Never allow real money into the game economy.
      Make your money only through subscription / buying time.
      (Fees for server moves and the anniversary glowy mount are OK)
      Never change a player's powers from PVP to PVE or zone to zone.
      Never change the existing game world. (Additions are obviously OK)

      You know what games don't have those weaknesses? Nearly everything that isn't an MMO.

      The push of modern games toward always-online social MMO models is basically just shorthand for socialization and grind. Our game is boring? Grab a friend! Our game is difficult? Grab a friend! Our game sucks? It will suck less with a friend!

      Here's the exhaustive list of features that good MMOs excel at: socialization, co-operative play, matchmaking, and exploration (wasting time without actually earning anything in the progress). That's it.

      MMOs fundamentally suck as games. Their core design is to squeeze as much longevity out of players as possible. Social addictions, capitalizing on natural competition, friendly or otherwise. An endless power curve to ensure you're always obsolete, there's always something better even after you sink a thousand hours into it. Open socialization so people can complain about how boring the game is (which I've witnessed countless times in multiple games) until a friend arrives, finally giving some semblance of actual fun.

      MMOs that are actually fun, rewarding individual skill, overwhelmingly tend to be niche games, as evidenced by anecdotal posts in forums such as these.

    5. Re:What MMO design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MMOs that are actually fun, rewarding individual skill, overwhelmingly tend to be niche games, as evidenced by anecdotal posts in forums such as these.

      That's because rewarding skill paradoxically sucks in an MMO. And for a simple reason: MMOs mean other people, and it means that your success frequently depends less on your own personal skill and more on other players meeting some level of skill. (Unless you're doing free-for-all style PVP, even in PVP, you better hope your teammates are skilled, or your own skill won't have time to matter.)

      The only solution to that is to remove skill from the equation (most MMOs' solution) or to remove other players from the equation - at which point you might as well be playing an offline game.

      Which is probably why MMOs are dying. Their design tends towards making RNG more important than skill for the reasons above, and that creates a boring game that no one wants to play.

    6. Re:What MMO design? by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Oh I disagree that it has nothing to do with MMOs, its really very similar. Its all about the basic core of game design and, the limitations of a game designed around a single game mechanic with respect to encouraging more and diverse groups of people to play.

      Whether its bar trivia or an MMO your bottom line is you need repeat business. It really is, fundamentally about making a more diverse product.

      Say what you want about MMOs dying or WOW, it, and others like it (I wont get into the flame war about why EVE was and is clearly superior in every way) they have been in continuous operation for over a decade now, I think they know a thing or two about designing a game to keep an active fanbase going.

      I don't think MMOs are going anywhere anytime soon. Hell, I just signed on to eve for the first time in a few years and joined a corp in a big alliance to see what thats about (I was in a very small one before), and it was clear the corp spanned all age ranges, so dying? Maybe not as popular in the news but, theres still 15-30k people on at any given time....even if you figure half of them are the alts of people who take it way to seriously, thats still a small town of people playing at any given time.

      I think the reports of their death have been greatly exaggerated, they are just not the hot new thing anymore.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    7. Re:What MMO design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      World of Warcraft's subscriber numbers are dwindling. Last I checked, Eve's were static.

      Go ahead, name another MMO past those two. WOW is "the big PVE MMO" that everyone's heard of. Eve is "the big PVP MMO" that everyone's heard of.

      But they're it. Every single MMO launched after WOW has been an abysmal failure. There are no new up and coming MMOs that players leaving WOW are migrating to. The playerbase willing to play MMOs is shrinking. The genre IS dying, the market for it is shrinking.

    8. Re:What MMO design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never enjoyed games that use a carrot on a stick to make up for terrible simulation dynamics.

  5. Won't work by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

    Bar trivias work bestg when you're sitting with your friends around a table. No gadgets or anything.

    8 rounds, 10 questions each, 8 sheets of paper.

    --
    bickerdyke
  6. Bring back pinball! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its been so long since i saw a pinball table in a bar. All they have now are these stupid video game kiosks, golden tee & the punchem thing.

  7. Buzztime is nuts by cHiphead · · Score: 1

    They are crazy with the amount they charge bars and restaurants, and they are losing out to other services deservedly based on that.

    --

    This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  8. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having played it regularly for over 15 years, Buzztime's new methods have actually caused a decrease in the amount of people playing, and the game in question doesn't even appear to be played in the vast majority of their bars. They've been playing games with the numbers by touting their increase in players, when the "change" was they made it way harder for you to play without registering for an account.

    That said, their Android tablets are a huge improvement over the previous "blue boxes" of death.

    As someone else says above, the amount they charge bars is out of this world. They tried to do a "scaled payment plan", but it appeared to disappear at some point in their continued revolving door of executives.

    Live trivia really is eating their lunch nowadays -- even Buffalo Wild Wings, Buzztime's largest customer, is getting into that pretty heavily.

  9. Subscription as a tradable item by tepples · · Score: 1

    Never allow real money into the game economy.
    Make your money only through subscription / buying time.

    EVE Online allows players to buy an item called a "pilot license extension" (PLEX) that's worth a month of play time but can also be traded for in-game items. Is that acceptable to you or not?

    1. Re:Subscription as a tradable item by towermac · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Warcraft just copied them on that.

      That is pushing it though. The good thing about having to buy time is weeding out the riff-raff.