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How We'll Someday Be Able To See Past the Cosmic Microwave Background

StartsWithABang writes: When it comes to the farthest thing we can see in the Universe, that's the Cosmic Microwave Background, or the leftover glow from the Big Bang, emitted when the Universe was a mere 380,000 years old. But what, exactly, does this mean? Does it mean that we're seeing the "edge" of the Universe? Does it mean that there's nothing to see, farther back beyond it? Does it mean that, as time goes on, we're going to be able to see farther back in time and space? The answers are no, no, and yes, respectively. If we want to see farther than ever before, we've got two options: either wait for more time to pass, or get moving and build that cosmic neutrino background detector.

64 comments

  1. We'll see past it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    As soon as somebody replaces the 17 year old microwave in the cafeteria of the observatory, since scientists can't be bothered to wait until the cycle is done.

  2. Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Your #1 source for links to medium.com

    Can we lose the daily barrage of pop-sci please.

    1. Re:Slashdot by multimediavt · · Score: 1

      I'd mod you up. The constant stream of HughPickens, StartsWithABang and (bogus) "anonymous reader" posts is getting even more annoying than the /. BETA ever was. It's obvious that these posts are tied to ad revenue and are contrived submissions. The whole point of /. was to find things that weren't everyday articles that were relevant to the community. Now, it's, "Here's the new thing the company wants to promote." Completely anti-/.

  3. Gee, I wonder by dohzer · · Score: 1

    Gee... I wonder who the linked astronomy-related Slashdotted story will have been written by.
    Click...
    Yup. Thought so. Is there nobody else writing astronomy blogs these days? Or is Slashdot just in love with Ethan?

    1. Re:Gee, I wonder by Twinbee · · Score: 2

      Well it's a very interesting topic. Did someone else also talk about this topic?

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    2. Re:Gee, I wonder by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      No.. Startwithabang is in love with Ethan.

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    3. Re:Gee, I wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      U jelly?

    4. Re:Gee, I wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      seeing bias in slashdot articles is like seeing bias in a white noise generator.
      Since cold fusion and FTL are already covered, I guess the "opaqueness compensator" is only a matter of time. My guess is teaching the next generation of doublespeak physics fraudsters should result in a few products we can peddle on HSN.

    5. Re:Gee, I wonder by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Or is Slashdot just in love with Ethan?

      Well, they had to fill the site with something once they got over their Bennett Haselton love-fest.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    6. Re:Gee, I wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You guessed Ethan? I guessed medium.com. Awesome topics yet again but the content lacks any scientific merit.

      -AC

  4. Well by Njorthbiatr · · Score: 3

    It's not like it's going anywhere, right guys?

    1. Re:Well by buchner.johannes · · Score: 2

      It's not like it's going anywhere, right guys?

      Actually, the cosmic background is going everywhere.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
  5. Re:Good one - how about a second verse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Allah and God and Jesus and Yaweh are all the same self-hating guy.

  6. So, forget the photon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The neutrino is the trendy particle, now?

    Bah! Wake me when the tetryon is discovered.

    1. Re:So, forget the photon? by Culture20 · · Score: 2

      The neutrino is the trendy particle, now?

      Bah! Wake me when the tetryon is discovered.

      Wake me an hour before the chroniton is discovered.

  7. Re:Good one - how about a second verse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The symptoms of schizophrenia, especially w.r.t. hearing voices, would explain a lot though.

  8. Re:Good one - how about a second verse by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 0

    "Burma Shave"

  9. This fits the mission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    of turning slashdot into a walhalla for clickbait.

  10. The "edge" of the universe? by jc42 · · Score: 0

    So how do they know that the "background" microwaves are from the edge of the universe? I thought that the primordial microwaves are scattered throughout the universe, so what we see when we look in some direction is the sum of all the background microwaves coming from that direction.

    If we're actually seeing the edge, doesn't that shoot down the idea that the universe doesn't actually have an edge, and everywhere appears to be at the "center" of the universe? How was this idea disproved? I seem to have missed the discovery of an actual edge, somehow.

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    1. Re: The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's not a literal "edge of the universe"

    2. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The CMB is the current edge of the observable universe which is almost always not assumed to be an edge to the whole universe, especially since work that shows certain patterns would be expected within the CMB if the whole universe were not much bigger than the observable universe.

    3. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Livius · · Score: 1

      It's the limit of what's observable.

      It's like how a light beam can have an edge, but it doesn't mean there isn't anything in the shadow.

    4. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by burtosis · · Score: 4, Informative

      So how do they know that the "background" microwaves are from the edge of the universe? I thought that the primordial microwaves are scattered throughout the universe, so what we see when we look in some direction is the sum of all the background microwaves coming from that direction.

      If we're actually seeing the edge, doesn't that shoot down the idea that the universe doesn't actually have an edge, and everywhere appears to be at the "center" of the universe? How was this idea disproved? I seem to have missed the discovery of an actual edge, somehow.

      The cmb is simply the first light that was able to freely travel through space. There is no actual 'edge' but there is always the apparent virtual edge beyond which you cannot see. It's easiest to think of it as space being infinite in size but finite in age. Light needs to travel to your eye to see so the farthest you can see is simply the age of the universe x the speed of light. As the universe cooled right after the Big Bang, initially light could not directly pass through all the hot plasma, only after it cooled and became transparent to visible light did light spread out in significant amounts. The heavily red shifted version of this light is the cmb we see today. Your own two eyes see a slightly different virtual 'edge' as every point in the universe looks as if it is the center.

      It took about 380k years for the universe to become transparent to light neutrinos pass through ionized material easily and the surface of last scattering is nearly as old as the Big Bang. It's a very old concept but has been researched lately as each kind of neutrino would have a slightly different background. The article is just random click bait there is nothing new or interesting about it really.

    5. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by rossdee · · Score: 1

      "It's like how a light beam can have an edge, but it doesn't mean there isn't anything in the shadow."

      In this case the shadow is in front of the pulse of light that was the big bang.
      We will never be able to see further than that since it is moving away at the speed of light.
      Unless we can invent a (much) faster than light drive, and go chase it down.

    6. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think "farther" is used for distance. I think "further" is used for time. Yet, in this situation, we're dealing with distance and time, are we not?

    7. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/further

      Definition 1) Farther

    8. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

      Imagine a hot Universe at an early time (which may be very large, even infinite). Photons are suddenly released and go in all directions.
      The Universe expands (meaning the distance between everything increases). The photons are still traveling through the Universe.
      At any point in time you can observe photons arriving at your position, and they are as old as their origin is away in light-distance (well, space expanded in the meantime, that makes it a bit harder to imagine).
      So, you can observe the background at any time, from all directions. It gives you access to the space where the photons where released, called a "last scattering surface". As time goes by, the photons have to be older and their distance larger, to arrive now.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    9. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by flopsquad · · Score: 1

      Oblig. Weird Al.

      Wait is that not The Edge you were talking about?

      --
      Nothing posted to /. has ever been legal advice, including this.
    10. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this case the shadow is in front of the pulse of light that was the big bang.

      The CMB isn't the light emitted right at the initial big bang event, but at a later time when the universe transitioned to not being opaque. The surface we see at any given moment isn't moving away at the speed of light, which is why we can still see it, with a relevant red shift, etc. All you need to see something further away in both space and time is something that could travel through the universe before the light could, and still retain information until today, e.g. neutrinos.

    11. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the farthest you can see is simply the age of the universe x the speed of light.

      Age=13.798E9 yrs
      c=1 ly/yr
      Radius =4.65E10 ly

      c*Age=13.798E9 ly

      Radius=3.37*c*Age ly
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe

    12. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      . Light needs to travel to your eye to see so the farthest you can see is simply the age of the universe x the speed of light.

      This is only true for static objects that are not moving and with no expansion of space. Otherwise, when you look at something like the comoving distance which takes into account movement even after the light left, you end up with things we see being much further than the distance the light traveled to get here.

    13. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by jc42 · · Score: 1

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/further

      Definition 1) Farther

      Heh; I think you've got it. ;-)

      This is one of the favorite "language peevery" examples that get discussed often in (English) language forums (or fora if you prefer ;-). The confusion about any purported difference goes back to before there were any actual English dictionaries, and probably 99% of the world's native speakers of English treat them as synonyms. The few that don't can't hardly agree about what their "correct" usages should be. But that doesn't stop such people from harrassing the rest of us about our "misusage". Mostly, it's just a thing they can feel superior about, while the rest of us casually ignore them.

      It is a bit curious to see such peevery pop up in a discussion in which General Relativity pretty much rules. Trying to make a strict distinction between distance and time in such discussions is mostly just funny, as well as a signal that the writer lacks understanding of something important to the discussion. But language peevery is rarely based on reality; it's more about some small crowd's attempts to impose strict rules on a language with many dialects and hundreds of millions of speakers.

      Now let's all join in singing a round of "Farther along" ... (in which the phrase clearly refers to time. ;-)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    14. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no edge, that they form a mostly uniform distribution in all of space. This supports the bang as space expanding, that is expansion from every point, not a single point.

    15. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cmb is simply the first light that was able to freely travel through space. There is no actual 'edge' but there is always the apparent virtual edge beyond which you cannot see. It's easiest to think of it as space being infinite in size but finite in age. Light needs to travel to your eye to see so the farthest you can see is simply the age of the universe x the speed of light. As the universe cooled right after the Big Bang, initially light could not directly pass through all the hot plasma, only after it cooled and became transparent to visible light did light spread out in significant amounts. The heavily red shifted version of this light is the cmb we see today.

      This isn't necessarily true - it's just a theory. It could just as easily be an infinite universe (both in space and time) with red shifting along our Rindler Horizon.

    16. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or I was trying to point out that the measurement of the CMB is in distance and time... I think. And that there may be no right answer. I mean, aren't we looking far away to determine what happened in the past? We're looking in distance to determine what happened billions of years ago. I guess the humor on it was lost.

    17. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Maritz · · Score: 1

      The 'edge' you're talking about is the Cosmic Horizon. The further away you look, the more ancient the light, and if you look further than 13 and a bit billion light years, you're "looking" at a place where the light hasn't had a chance to reach us yet. It's still in transit. So it isn't an 'edge' to anyone other than us. As I understand it, the Universe is consistent with being (at least) a hypersphere; finite in extent but with no boundary - analogous to how the Earth's surface is finite but without a boundary.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    18. Re:The "edge" of the universe? by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Does this not involve paradoxes, e.g. why isn't the whole sky as bright as the surface of a star?

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
  11. four (4) questions three (3) answers by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    >> The answers are no, no, and yes, respectively.

    If I'm reading this right, you just said:
    But what, exactly, does this mean? no
    Does it mean that we're seeing the "edge" of the Universe? no
    Does it mean that there's nothing to see, farther back beyond it? yes
    Does it mean that, as time goes on, we're going to be able to see farther back in time and space? (no response)

    1. Re:four (4) questions three (3) answers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You read it wrong. There are 4 questions and 4 comma-separated answers:

      But what, exactly, does this mean? no
      Does it mean that we're seeing the "edge" of the Universe? no
      Does it mean that there's nothing to see, farther back beyond it? and yes
      Does it mean that, as time goes on, we're going to be able to see farther back in time and space? respectively

    2. Re:four (4) questions three (3) answers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 smartass.

      Technically correct is to engineers what technically legal is to lawyers.

    3. Re:four (4) questions three (3) answers by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

      Ah...the "respectively." However, I think that's just part of the last answer, so I'll update this to:

      But what, exactly, does this mean? no
      Does it mean that we're seeing the "edge" of the Universe? no
      Does it mean that there's nothing to see, farther back beyond it? yes, respectively
      Does it mean that, as time goes on, we're going to be able to see farther back in time and space? (no response)

      Personally, I like his "what, exactly, does this mean" answer: it would have avoided a lot of religious wars. :)

    4. Re:four (4) questions three (3) answers by SpaceBuggy · · Score: 1

      Mod GP "+0, Off-by-one"

  12. Well written article by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    Amongst all the /. arguments, I would like to say that that is a well written article. It gets a very complex point across in a way that is easily understood. I didn't realize previously that our view of the CMB would change over time. Makes sense, we see the CMB who's light happens to get here now.

    1. Re:Well written article by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it doesn't say how we are supposed to build a cosmological neutrino detector...

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    2. Re:Well written article by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      We already know how to build one. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I... Current ones are looking for neutrinos at a different energy level, since we are looking for solar and supernova neutrinos. We need a very large one built to a different standard. The hard part is determining the direction where each neutrino is coming from.

    3. Re:Well written article by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Did you miss the part about them being something like 20 orders of magnitude less energetic...?

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    4. Re:Well written article by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      No, that is why I said "Current ones are looking for neutrinos at a different energy level"

  13. Earlier background? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The microwave background radiation is what remains from the red-shifting of a burst of light when electrons became bound to protons and was stretched by the subsequent expansion of space. Wasn't there an earlier burst, of gamma rays, when quarks condensed from the quark-gluon plasma to form baryons? Has that been absorbed/scattered to obscurity by interaction with matter since then? Why hasn't the microwave background has not similarly been obscured by interaction with matter (exciting rotational energy levels of molecules?)

    1. Re:Earlier background? by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      When the first stars formed, the energy released re-ionized the entire universe, so that first-last burst of radiation was absorbed by electrons. The second last-burst is what we see now, when the universe cooled to allow the electrons to re-combine. Some of it has been absorbed over time. But, the universe is now transparent. Much of it hasn't met anything that could stop it from the time it was created until it hits one of our antenna. BTW, being absorbed by a microwave radio antenna does destroy the radiation received. It's not the amount that we are measuring, but the wavelength that is critical. When creating the CMB maps, they do have to take into account relatively nearby objects that could stop it, including the plane of our galaxy.

    2. Re:Earlier background? by lgw · · Score: 1

      The microwave background radiation is what remains from the red-shifting of a burst of light when electrons became bound to protons and was stretched by the subsequent expansion of space. Wasn't there an earlier burst, of gamma rays, when quarks condensed from the quark-gluon plasma to form baryons? Has that been absorbed/scattered to obscurity by interaction with matter since then?

      The entire universe was quite opaque then, much like the core of the sun. Those photons didn't ravel far before finding an electron, which of course would emit a new photon (also gamma frequencies at first) soon. The dominant forces in the universe between the first few seconds and 300K years were gravity and light pressure. The photons of the CMBR were still fairly high energy at the point the universe became transparent - there's just been a significant redshift since then.

      Why hasn't the microwave background has not similarly been obscured by interaction with matter (exciting rotational energy levels of molecules?)

      For the same reason we can see distant stars: matter is quite sparse these days, and hydrogen and helium only absorb light of a specific set of frequencies.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  14. Any hope of seeing gravitational background? by fredmeister · · Score: 1

    IANAP, but from what I read in most models of inflation there should be primordial gravitational waves, which could be indirectly detected based on the polarization of the CMB (b-modes). These waves (if they exist) would go all the way back to the inflationary period itself.

    The BICEP2 experiment was designed to look for these, and last year announced detecting b-modes in the CMB. Of course, as we now know thanks to Planck their discovery is probably due to dust polarization. Are there any current or planned experiments that could differentiate between dust polarization and potential gravitationally-caused polarization?

  15. Re:Good one - how about a second verse by dave420 · · Score: 1

    There you go again with your xenophobia. The weird thing is that you would let the world know you are scared and ignorant of a great portion of it, and happily so at that. Bizarre.

  16. One Daft Question by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    Does it mean that, as time goes on, we're going to be able to see farther back in time and space?

    Obviously the answer is yes because, as time goes on, the period at which the CMB was emitted moves further into the past so obviously we are seeing "further back in time" but only at the rate of one year further per year past (on average). Since the universe is also expanding we are also looking further. This is about as insightful as pointing out that as time goes by I can remember events further back in time.

    1. Re:One Daft Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not necessarily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but each year means another light-year the photons had to travel. Since we're not moving at the speed of light relative to every other point in the universe, that means the cone of light reaching us is expanding. In other words, we see further into the past by much more than a single year for every elapsed year of our time. In other words, we can see more and more of the same, singular moment of the big bang (or rather, the same 350k years after the big bang, plus or minus).

    2. Re:One Daft Question by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      In other words, we see further into the past by much more than a single year for every elapsed year

      No, the universe was opaque until the plasma cooled and released what is now the CMB. We cannot see further back in time with light. Hence the only reason we can see further into the past each year is because that event (the universe becoming transparent) is getting further away from the present. Currently the amount of that event we can see is increasing - a trend which will eventually reverse due to dark energy - but it all occurred ~380k years after the Big Bang. So the only way we see further back is to let the present get further away or use something other than light like neutrinos.

  17. Re: Good one - how about a second verse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I imagine h you'd have said the same thing about the Nazis before WW2.

  18. Re:Good one - how about a second verse by Whiteox · · Score: 2

    Allah and God and Jesus and Yaweh are all the same self-hating guy.

    Ermm they are not. In all 3 monotheistic religions, 'God' is qualitatively different.
    The oldest Hebrew has a monotheistic God with NO recognized prophet.
    The Christians have a tripart God as 3 identities, the total of which is a monotheistic god that also predates itself.
    The newest - Allah who is further removed from 'man', is based on the Hebrew God (the first 4 books of the Hebrew bible) and comes with a prophet.

    (I don't believe any of this btw)

    --
    Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
  19. Re:Good one - how about a second verse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The Christians have a tripart God as 3 identities, the total of which is a monotheistic god that also predates itself."

    That kind of gross oversimplification has been directly responsible for tens of thousands and indirectly responsible for possibly millions of deaths. I'd suggest you quit while you're ahead. The Early Christians were perhaps the greatest pedants of all time. Imagine a cross of ISIS fighters, erudite professors, and the worst-of-the-worst Slashdot grammarians; legions of them; all being followed by a substantial portion of the human population.

  20. Medium by tepples · · Score: 1

    Medium.com: Because Small.com and Large.com don't exist.