Slashdot Mirror


The Mob's IT Department

An anonymous reader writes: An article at Bloomberg relates the story of two IT professionals who reluctantly teamed up with an organized criminal network in building a sophisticated drug smuggling operation. "[The criminals were] clever, recruiting Van De Moere and Maertens the way a spymaster develops a double agent. By the time they understood what they were involved in, they were already implicated." The pair were threatened, and afraid to go to the police. They were asked to help with deploying malware and building "pwnies" — small computers capable of intercepting network traffic that could be disguised as power strips and routers. In 2012, authorities lucked into some evidence that led them to investigate the operation. "Technicians found a bunch of surveillance devices on [the network of large shipping company MSC]. There were two pwnies and a number of Wi-Fi keyloggers—small devices installed in USB ports of computers to record keystrokes—that the hackers were using as backups to the pwnies. MSC hired a private investigator, who called PricewaterhouseCoopers' digital forensics team, which learned that computer hackers were intercepting network traffic to steal PIN codes and hijack MSC's containers."

104 comments

  1. MITM or unencrypted by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "hackers were intercepting network traffic to steal PIN codes and hijack MSC's containers"

    So this was a MITM capture, or the PIN data was flying through unencrypted.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:MITM or unencrypted by guruevi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Most likely they assumed, as most companies these days erroneously do, that their entire internal network is 'secure' and thus does not need encryption. Besides these dedicated devices, most corporate networks don't protect much against visiting and malware infested laptops. Even if they are aware of the chance of someone bringing a virus from home, they rather turn to device 'access controls' and trusting the device to self-report over securing the internal systems.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    2. Re:MITM or unencrypted by JackieBrown · · Score: 2

      My last job (KCI) was like that. All supervisors had admin access and could connect to any network (secured or not) we wanted. It was amazing what my peers decided to install on their company issued laptops.

      I still remember one day, HR sent out an email to all 4000 employees with everyones SS#, salary, and address (the person attached the wrong file - they meant to send out a flyer for the company picnic.) IT department's solution to keep that file from getting out was to block gmail and yahoo mail. Since everyone had full read write access to the usb ports, this was not much a solution.

      Now, at my new job, I get to experience the joys of a locked down laptop that requires an RSA secrurid to log into the network, web is locked down, and no read/write access on the usb ports.

    3. Re:MITM or unencrypted by DigiShaman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Now, at my new job, I get to experience the joys of a locked down laptop that requires an RSA secrurid to log into the network, web is locked down, and no read/write access on the usb ports.

      Just as an FYI, if a company is going to restrict local I/O resources to and from a computer, then using a computer is the wrong tool; they should be using thin-clients to a terminal server of some sort.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:MITM or unencrypted by Penguinisto · · Score: 2

      This, right here.

      VDI is a very good solution for it, or Citrix, or VCAC, or... For high-security data, there should be only a very small handful of reasons why someone has a full-blown workstation on their desk these days, let alone a laptop. Sadly, at least one of those reasons is "because the CxO needs one, that's why!"

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    5. Re:MITM or unencrypted by Cramer · · Score: 1

      My guess is they don't handle them securely because they don't see them as that sensitive. They are, after all, numbers humans have to have to get the right containers. At some point, they will be in a format that can be stolen -- i.e. on the waybill handed to the driver. You're basically trying to secure a phone number -- randomly generated and rotating, but still something more than one person necessarily knows.

      How securely do you handle your Fedex or UPS tracking numbers? (granted, you cannot show up at the warehouse, read off a number, and get any package. If you have the, you-weren't-home waybill, however, they'll hand over whatever it is. USPS is the same, btw -- never been asked for ID)My guess is they don't handle them securely because they don't see them as that sensitive. They are, after all, numbers humans have to have to get the right containers. At some point, they will be in a format that can be stolen -- i.e. on the waybill handed to the driver. You're basically trying to secure a phone number -- randomly generated and rotating, but still something more than one person

    6. Re:MITM or unencrypted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agree

    7. Re:MITM or unencrypted by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Just as an FYI, if a company is going to restrict local I/O resources to and from a computer, then using a computer is the wrong tool; they should be using thin-clients to a terminal server of some sort.

      One place I worked had machines locked down so tight they we're unusable. The stupid part is because they were so unusable everyone brought in their own machines (tethering through your phone to the Internet). So while the network was secure, nothing was on it because information creation was done on user owned machines and emailed around via Gmail/Hotmail etc.
      In an equally secure place, they had the VDI model with thin clients, the solution was better than any desktop because you had workstation performance, and access to your own desktop from any Thin Client in the organisation, or remotely. You could leave your apps open and they'd be there where-ever and whenever you login.

    8. Re: MITM or unencrypted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might as well say the same of credit cards with that argument, or your bank account # on checks. You give those to people all the time.

      Being able to log in remotely and get a large number of these things is where it gets a lot worse.

  2. "pwnies" sound familiar... by chispito · · Score: 4, Informative

    "Pwnies" are probably PWN Plugs from Pwnie Express. The original models were basically Sheeva Plugs, a raspberry-pi esque computer inside a wall wart form factor.

    It would be interesting to see if these guys received products or training from Pwnie Express, a well known infosec vendor.

    --
    The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    1. Re:"pwnies" sound familiar... by chispito · · Score: 1

      Granted, there are plenty of guides and walkthrus on rolling your own.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    2. Re:"pwnies" sound familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That just an Intel NUC with some custom firmware?!

    3. Re:"pwnies" sound familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a nexus 7 pwnie. I like to "forget it" in places.

    4. Re:"pwnies" sound familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lookie here, http://www.engadget.com/2012/07/22/darpa-backed-power-pwn-is-superhero-hack-machine/

      So... Let me get this right. A public available and DARPA backed pwnie infested power strip is awesome, but a sabotaged pwnie power strip to thwart these criminals plot is evil? *sigh*

  3. OMG pwnies! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    It should have been: "OMG!!!! pwnies!!!"

  4. Don't worry, they will be outsourced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The mob will wind up outsourcing the IT jobs to India......

  5. more important question... by freeze128 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How much does the mob pay an IT worker? It might be better than legit companies.

    1. Re:more important question... by Thiez · · Score: 5, Funny

      I heard they'll make you an offer you can't refuse.

    2. Re:more important question... by Qzukk · · Score: 3, Funny

      You get your choice of payment in silver or lead.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    3. Re:more important question... by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Interesting

      These two were making €12,000 and €20,000 per month, before their involvement with the criminal element. One of them was seeking start up capital for a business venture and allowed himself to get roped in that way. If you give them the benefit of the doubt the best you can say about them is they were naive. In the worst reading they were greedy and willfully complicit. I suspect reality falls between those two extremes.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:more important question... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Also, what kind of fringe benefits do I get? If someone offends me, can I make a call? Can I buy cheap stuff of the back of a truck? If someone kidnaps my daughter, do I get to make a phone call to a Liam Neeson clone?

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    5. Re:more important question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its not the pay as much as it is the "pension" program when you (try to) retire. You know, that tropical island retreat that is so nice that everyone sent there forgets to ever contact their families again...

    6. Re:more important question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think anyone who is smart enough to build a legitimate career off the back of their technical prowess and end up earning the money these two were earning, isn't likely to get sucked into some criminal enterprise naively.

      I suspect they got greedy and thought they could make millions, now they're playing some bullshit IT geek card to try to get sympathy.

    7. Re:more important question... by swb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've worked as an SMB consultant and almost every SMB owner I've run into is some kind creepy, shifty guy who is coming as close as he can to "the line" and often crossing it. At a minimum it's every conceivable tax dodge imaginable -- luxury company car as a daily commuter, no-show family members on the payroll, tons of business-paid home technology for personal use, and so on. Who knows what it is at maximum. Probably outright tax fraud, siphoning cash, cheating employees, whatever.

      You could make a believable narrative that has two small-time entrepreneurs looking for investors and/or work are just *used* to the kind of slimeballs that are out there and don't really ask too many questions. Call it conditioned ignorance.

      I don't know how cost of living translates, but I do think their incomes, especially the guy with a regular job (IIRC) would make them be a little more selective. That part I find kind of fishy.

      But it's also not hard to see once they saw they were dealing with guys with guns that going along with it but with willful incompetence wouldn't have seemed like a totally unreasonable strategy. What are your choices? Run away and look over your shoulder for years?

    8. Re:more important question... by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      I don't know how cost of living translates

      €144,000 annually is comfortable living by any metric.

      What are your choices? Run away and look over your shoulder for years?

      Getting deeper into bed with them is not a sensible decision either. It may be necessary in the short term but what's the exit strategy? The most sensible decision would be to avoid putting yourself in the position where you have to make that choice. Failing that, I would personally take my chances with the authorities. Caving to blackmail is never a winning move in the long term.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    9. Re:more important question... by PPH · · Score: 1

      That's where the farm is that we send all our ageing cats and dogs.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    10. Re:more important question... by barc0001 · · Score: 1

      If you read the article, it seems most of their bonuses were payments in physical violence and death threats against their families if they didn't cooperate.

    11. Re:more important question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "holy shit was that predictable and extremely lame."

      holy shit was that predictable and extremely lame.

    12. Re:more important question... by swb · · Score: 1

      I think that WAS their exit strategy -- just be incompetent enough that they'd look elsewhere for talent.

      If you're a consultant/entrepreneur, you can't always know what your clients are ultimately up to so you're often into it before it's too late to just up and quit.

       

    13. Re:more important question... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Really smart people can be naive. Nobody is immune to confirmation bias.

    14. Re:more important question... by maestroX · · Score: 1

      If you give them the benefit of the doubt the best you can say about them is they were naive.

      Considering their type of work, daily routine and former employers (banks) it's really hard to imagine they did not know there's a thin line.
      Any shady company is on the wrong side by default.

    15. Re:more important question... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Some people think that salary would be scraping by. We make a lot of money, but it would be really easy to get into financial trouble if we got too extravagant. I drive a seven-year-old car because I like it and it still works fine, but if we insisted on each of us getting a new car every three years that would be a big hit. We like to entertain, but spending $400 on dinner with friends twice a week would hurt badly (a few times a year is fine). We have a nice house that wasn't cheap, but we could have gone much higher-end.

      Just because you can live very comfortably on a salary like that doesn't mean that you'll be comfortable living on that salary. People have a nearly unlimited ability to find more things to spend money on.

      I'm not trying to defend somebody for being discontented with a salary like that, but it's easy to get it and think you've got way too little.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:more important question... by swb · · Score: 1

      My question was more along the lines of how well you can live on that money in Belgium.

      My wife and I together make about 60% more than the $140k euros stated, but we live in the midwestern US and we do not live luxuriously -- our home is just under 2k sq ft, my car is 8 years old and we just replaced her Honda which was almost 12 years old and had 150k on the clock.

      We eat most meals at home, dining out as a family at lowbrow places maybe 1-2 times a week with maybe an expensive adults night out once a month or less. Neither one of us is into fashion, jewelry or expensive individual hobbies. At best the luxury we have is no credit card debt, 401ks, some savings, and being able to live comfortably without budgeting down to the last dime every month.

      I'm thinking that 144k euros in Belgium as a sole family income would go a lot less further than in the US. Higher taxes, higher cost of living for power, food, housing, cars and clothing. I suspect healthcare may be cheaper as a percentage of income in Belgium, which might balance some of the other costs but overall I'd consider than $144k euro salary to be closer to maybe $110k in US midwestern purchasing power.

    17. Re:more important question... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      It does cost more money to maintain an automobile in Europe; insurance, fuel, and even the cost of getting a license is much higher than in the States. The key difference is that in the vast majority of Europe you don't need an automobile. Even the low population density (Finland) countries make an effort to lay their cities and towns out in a way that's pedestrian friendly. The only people who need automobiles are those that truly live in rural areas and even in such areas you'll find that mass transit is more accessible than it would be in rural America.

      Either way, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that you couldn't live a decent upper middle class life on €144k/yr. I know people who live decently in New York City on considerably less money than that. I highly doubt the cost of living in Amsterdam is higher than NYC.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    18. Re:more important question... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Antwerp that is. Not sure why I typed Amsterdam..... :)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    19. Re:more important question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking from personal experience as a consultant, most people you meet in business are criminals, they just either haven't been caught yet or people forgot to write the law because some things are so obviously wrong that normal people don't even think about those. It's perfectly possible that one of my former contacts is a mobster; I wouldn't know how to tell the difference and if you're picky enough to exclude mobsters you'll have to ditch almost all your clients and that isn't workable either obviously. I have come to believe that all business people are psychopaths.

  6. So many kids' dreams unfulfilled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I know quite a few people that would LOVE to find out their boss is the Mob. They would squeal like pigs to the FBI in a minute - all for just the glory of going into witness protection and leaving their crap lives behind.

    Granted, most of them are single and don't have to worry about kids/spouses.

  7. They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Once you realize what you are doing and for who you are doing it, you contact the authorities. These guys continued to cooperate, continued to engage and despite their attempts to soften their story, are responsible for their actions. Intimidation is not an excuse, it's perhaps a reason, but it doesn't absolve you of the moral and ethical obligation to turn yourself in.

    My guess is that they are trying to get some sympathy by cooking up this "We tried to resist, without getting killed" defense. At the very least, you use all that IT knowledge and start reaching out to authorities. Heck, walk into a police station and turn your self in, offer to be an informant, explain to them what's going on and tell them you need help getting out. I'm sure any number of customs officials would have jumped at the chance to help them out for the information they obviously had. I'm also sure that any prosecutor would have loved to let them plea bargain (or just plain offered immunity) as well.

    No, despite the intimidation they claim, I'm not inclined to believe they where powerless to help themselves, nor am I inclined to think they should be given lighter sentences for what they participated in. The jails are full of people who claim they where wrongly incarcerated. Some claim to be innocent, some claim the sentence was wrong, some claim they couldn't help it, but nearly all of them are just lying. These guys are in the same boat.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:They are trying to get off... by NatasRevol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You've never imagined having a gun to your kids' head, have you?

      life > illegality

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    2. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      “We really admire you, sir. You said if anyone tries to interfere with Project Mayhem, even you, we gotta get his balls."

    3. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Definitely get a lawyer first. Don't just throw yourself to the mercy of local law-enforcement, especially in a complex case like this.

    4. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      skip the police go to the feds, and get your family into witness protection. after a year or so of hell you get back to normal.

    5. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once you realize what you are doing and for who you are doing it, you contact the authorities. These guys continued to cooperate, continued to engage and despite their attempts to soften their story, are responsible for their actions. Intimidation is not an excuse, it's perhaps a reason, but it doesn't absolve you of the moral and ethical obligation to turn yourself in.

      My guess is that they are trying to get some sympathy by cooking up this "We tried to resist, without getting killed" defense. At the very least, you use all that IT knowledge and start reaching out to authorities. Heck, walk into a police station and turn your self in, offer to be an informant, explain to them what's going on and tell them you need help getting out. I'm sure any number of customs officials would have jumped at the chance to help them out for the information they obviously had. I'm also sure that any prosecutor would have loved to let them plea bargain (or just plain offered immunity) as well.

      No, despite the intimidation they claim, I'm not inclined to believe they where powerless to help themselves, nor am I inclined to think they should be given lighter sentences for what they participated in. The jails are full of people who claim they where wrongly incarcerated. Some claim to be innocent, some claim the sentence was wrong, some claim they couldn't help it, but nearly all of them are just lying. These guys are in the same boat.

      Talk's cheap.

    6. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Clearly you have never been seriously threatened by someone that you felt had the means and desire to actually carry out a serious threat against you or your family members.

      I promise that the police are not going to "hop to" and put some kind of "protective detail" on you and yours while they bring down the big, bad mob.

    7. Re:They are trying to get off... by bmajik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Have you ever lived anywhere where there was a significant mob presence?

      I haven't, and for good reason.

      Your plan is a really great plan if you assume that the mob has absolutely no penetration whatsoever into the local police department.

      I don't know why you'd assume such a stupid thing, though.

      So here is how your suggestion really goes.

      You walk into the local PD. On your way there, some kid recognized your face. He has instructions that say that if he sees a guy who looks like you walking into the police station, he calls a number and gets a bonus.

      When you come home, something is different. Either your family is already dead, or, there's a note that makes it clear that your family is vulnerable and that you've fucked up - but there is still a chance to not get your family killed. Who knows what the knob is set at for the "first contact" - but there's a clear indication that you don't want to continue talking to the police.

      Now, if someone inside that building is actually connected - and usually, somebody is - maybe they're the person who interviewed you. Maybe they're the person who looks at the signin/signout sheet at the station. Maybe they are somebody who files paperwork or types things up for other people.

      Zillions of little people are needed to make the machine of government operate, and the mob targets precisely those people to be their eyes and ears. It uses combinations of carrots and sticks to keep them cooperating with mob goals, without letting them get too familiar with what those goals are or who is executing them.

      Point is, if the mob has any power in your city, that includes eyes and ears within, or effectively within, the police department.

      Part of the mob's effectiveness is that it destroys trust in the normal functioning institutinos of society. You never know for sure who is and isn't. It effectively isolate frightened individuals from the facets of society that might help or protect them. It always makes it seem like it's 1 person against the entire mob - it paints that same picture to lots of separate people.

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    8. Re:They are trying to get off... by sjames · · Score: 1

      If 'authorities' everywhere had a better reputation for protecting people who need protecting and for understanding when people only find out after the fact that they are involved in a crime, perhaps your argument would make sense.

    9. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hm - you really don't have much imagination when it comes to crime. They tell you that they are watching your family and will rape, torture, kill them if you take a step they don't like before anyone can get there to help them (your immediate family, your parents, your friends - do you really think you can get *all* of them out of sight in time). If you try to get in a car and make a run for it, your family will be gunned down within blocks. They watch and restrict your movements in order to make it difficult to even try to contact the police they will know.

      Or you can take the easy way out, do what they ask and rationalize it by thinking that the worst they are doing is stealing some money.

    10. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intimidation is not an excuse

      In many cases, it actually can be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress

    11. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Luckily you're running the mob's IT, email, chat, and info servers, so you know who Benny's been sending his money to in order to keep a thumb in the police station. The boss is going to want to know how much Benny's in for, so he's going to want a trail, and you have access to that trail, you see?

      Vikings carried silver scales when pillaging. Organized crime/violence unravels very quickly when money flow loses transparency. In modern times, that means that you, as an IT dude, can know where it all is... unless Luca still runs everything out of a book he keeps in his left breast pocket.

    12. Re: They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Glad there is someone who believes in the system. Do you know how many informants die each year, how about innocent bystanders who get caught in the crossfire. (Like their families)
      Sorry to say not everything is like it is in the movies. The best they could hope for is being sloppy, which it sounds like they were, and to get caught quickly. I mean usb devices ad backup? Really, any IT dept would catch onto that quickly. They probably knew this and that is why they did it.
      The funny thing is from the sound of it they weren't even that good. Just review defcon bids and you will see part of what they missed. Seriously software is harder to detect than hardware, and this was all clumsy hardware.

    13. Re:They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You've never imagined having a gun to your kids' head, have you?

      life > illegality

      No... But this is NOT the movies or TV. Nobody was being held captive, they had their personal cell phones, cars, homes and where freely walking around. Nobody had a gun to their head 24/7...

      Surely there was a time and opportunity to make a move to reach out to authorities, make a phone call, send an E-mail or two, or get somebody in your family to help you. This went on for MONTHS.... Surely there was a number of possible exit ramps one could have taken. Heck, they claim to have had enough time to discuss and implement ways to disrupt what was going on. They had time and opportunity to get out if they wanted too.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    14. Re:They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 0

      You've never imagined having a gun to your kids' head, have you?

      No... But this is NOT the movies or TV. Nobody was being held captive, they had their personal cell phones, cars, homes and where freely walking around. Nobody had a gun to their head 24/7...

      Surely there was a time and opportunity to make a move to reach out to authorities, make a phone call, send an E-mail or two, or get somebody in your family to help you. This went on for MONTHS.... Surely there was a number of possible exit ramps one could have taken. Heck, they claim to have had enough time to discuss and implement ways to disrupt what was going on. They had time and opportunity to get out if they wanted too.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    15. Re:They are trying to get off... by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      You've never imagined having a gun to your kids' head, have you?

      Read TFA. Specifically these paragraphs:

      To his surprise, Adibelli agreed. “If you wanted out, why didn’t you let us know?” he said. Maertens was too scared to bring up the beating and the kidnapping and death threats. “Obviously, you know we’re not in a legal business,” Adibelli added. “So if you talk to anyone, we know where you and your family live.”

      Adibelli brought Van De Moere down next and asked him if he wanted out, too. Van De Moere said yes.

      There was only one condition of the release: Van De Moere had to give Okul an intensive training session on Linux, the operating system on which Metasploit, the hacking software, is based. A few weeks later, according to police and interviews, he did so over one weekend at a Holiday Inn in Ghent. In November, Van De Moere returned two antennas and had a couple of beers with Okul. That was the last either man would see of the Turks.

      Something doesn't jive here. The type of people that are willing to actually hold a gun to your head are not the type of people that are willing to let you walk away simply by giving your notice. I don't doubt that there was some level of intimidation at play but there were apparently limits to how far the bad guys were willing to go. Which begs the question of why these two didn't go to the authorities after they "got out." Perhaps they didn't wish to part with the €25,000 in cash they had previously received?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    16. Re:They are trying to get off... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Have you ever lived anywhere where there was a significant mob presence?

      No, I live in Chicago.

      Seriously though, growing up on Taylor Street in Chicago's Little Italy neighborhood, we all knew who the mob guys were, and many of them were part of our extended families. I used to go fetch cigars for the old men who sat in front of the social club drinking espresso and they'd give me dollar bills and sage life advice. The barber and the tailor at Taylor and Loomis were both bookies.

      Part of the mob's effectiveness is that it destroys trust in the normal functioning institutinos of society.

      Actually, in the case of the Chicago mob, they didn't destroy trust in those institutions, they replaced trust in those institutions for people who were blocked from having access to them. Today, if you want to get a bet down, you just have to go online or buy a lottery scratch-off ticket. Back then, you had to go see the barber. If you needed a loan, you saw the loan shark (who actually charged less interest than today's payday loan joints). If you needed the pothole in your street fixed, you went to talk to the precinct captain (who could be found putting down a bet with the barber or drinking espresso at the social club).

      So see, the mob didn't destroy trust in normal functioning institutions of society, it created trust in people where the institutions of society didn't function properly.

      Today, those old mob guys are almost all dead, and their kids went to med school or law school and are living out in the suburbs or on the North Side. All the mob's wealth has been laundered through the "normal functioning institutions of society" and their kids and grandkids are paragons of those functioning institutions. The mob here has always been the way immigrant populations assimilate. Do you think the fortunes of any of the great families in the US were built very differently? From Rockefeller to Kennedy to Romney, the fortunes are always built on something a little sleazy.

      This all may be different where you are. This story happens to be about "the mob" in Belgium, which I can't even imagine. Maybe they control the black market waffles or something.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    17. Re:They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Oh, so you want to talk sense eh?

      The vast majority of the police are underpaid public servants who willingly risk their lives out of a sense of duty. Some do it for ego, but even these would jump at the chance to help you, if for no other reason than to notch their belts again. So that just leaves the vanishing few that *might* be corrupted by the organization you are trying to flee. Your odds are really good you won't have an issue.

      I would think that what makes sense is to get away from those who have already shown the willingness to beat you up. If that means taking a risk by calling the local police department and talking to some random detective about your plight over the phone is better odds than staying on the course you are on.

      Common sense says call the cops, call a couple of them if you want to be sure... What doesn't make any sense is staying in the employ of people doing illegal things and beating you up... Unless you really just did it for the money to start with.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    18. Re:They are trying to get off... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      If you don't want to get fleas don't lay down with dogs. The "mob" (a misleading title, given that TFA doesn't mention Cosa Nostra or any other organized crime syndicate....) didn't pick these two at random and hold guns to their head. They got involved with them willingly; one of the two was seeking start up capital for a business venture and quite likely ignored the little voice inside of his head because of greed. An old adage comes to mind, "If it sounds too good to be true....."

      Incidentally, the "mob" as traditionally discussed in the United States doesn't tend to go after random citizens. They typically get hooks into their victims because of the victim's own bad judgment. Loansharking, gambling, prostitution, drugs, and so forth. At the street level the vast majority of violent crime is common criminal on common criminal. There aren't too many places in the First World where taxpaying citizens have to really worry about becoming a statistic. Common sense goes a long way....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    19. Re:They are trying to get off... by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, IT != Accountant.

    20. Re:They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Talk's cheap.

      Touché... But you got to admit that these guys' story smells like the waste bin at the local fish monger's....

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    21. Re:They are trying to get off... by sjames · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of the police are underpaid public servants who willingly risk their lives out of a sense of duty. Some do it for ego, but even these would jump at the chance to help you, if for no other reason than to notch their belts again. So that just leaves the vanishing few that *might* be corrupted by the organization you are trying to flee. Your odds are really good you won't have an issue.

      Alas, the decision of if and when to assign resources to protection is above their pay grade. It doesn't matter how much a cop wants to protect you and your family if his superior says stop.

    22. Re:They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      I promise that the police are not going to "hop to" and put some kind of "protective detail" on you and yours while they bring down the big, bad mob.

      You are in no position to "promise" anything about how the police would act. But look at the situation... You are supposedly "caught" in something illegal, you know it is, you know these guys will physically harm you and the longer you keep on the path you are on, the more likely harm will come to you and the deeper you are getting into something you presumably don't want to be involved in. You are STUPID if you don't at least try to make an exit, as soon as you understand the situation. Morals and ethics demand you at least try....

      Of course, if you like the money.....

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    23. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Luckily you're running the mob's IT, email, chat,

      Not so easy - they don't computerize everything - for good reasons. These guys were running (one of) the mob's computer spying setups - that's all. So they knew who they were spying on, and what kind of info they got out of that. (Bank stuff? Credit cards? Passwords?) Useful if you want to be a witness against them. But you don't know who pays who and all that. You don't get to see an "organization chart", that only exists in the heads of the "upper management". So no, you don't know who their paid cops are - or how much they get. You don't know who their killers are. You don't know about all the other (non-computer) things they do.

      And you don't know what else they use computers for. You surely don't know the bosses money transfers or who he skypes with . . .

    24. Re:They are trying to get off... by PPH · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You walk into the local PD.

      Walk. How 20th Century.

      You establish some anonymous communications with FBI/CBP/etc. (or your nation's equivalent) at their HQ. Not the local police department on the Texas-Mexico border. The latter have mostly been pwned by the drug lords. So you exchange public keys with the FBI and establish yourself as an unwilling insider. You set up a deal for immunity and a contact name and pass phrase that you can drop when the DEA storms the facility and hauls everyone out (including yourself) in handcuffs when the gang is busted. Until then, nobody needs to know who you are. If talk inside the gang turns toward looking for a snitch, you can always go silent if it looks like your law enforcement contact might have been dirty. And at this point, nobody will know who you are IRL.

      If there is a leak in HQ and you or your family end up dead, you can arrange a 'dead man switch' on a server that forwards all your correspondence to the New York Times, Guardian, Wikileaks, and anyone else willing to print an expose on corrupt law enforcement in bed with the mob.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    25. Re:They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      For Pete's sake, this isn't a TV series or Movie... Read the linked article, it reads like a crime drama for a reason. These guys are cooking a lot of this up and are either trying to get away with something, or are looking for a book/movie deal.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    26. Re: They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 2

      People act like what they see in the made for TV crime drama's are true life... These two fools, if their story is actually based in real life, where idiots, both in what they managed to actually do and how they are trying to claim innocence because they where coerced into it.

      IMHO, there story is too fishy. Either they had ample opportunity to get out and choose to stay and collect the money, or they are angling for a book and movie/book deal and none of this actually happened.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    27. Re:They are trying to get off... by PPH · · Score: 2, Interesting

      skip the police go to the feds

      Go to the feds carefully. And anonymously.

      We had a guy who 'went to the feds' with a bunch of damning evidence on a corrupt outfit in my town. The feds he went to were already pwned by the company (see: regulatory capture). They just said, "Not interested." The they called the company up and told them who had snatched the documents so they could go to the police and have him charged with theft.

      This guy should have set up an anonymous connection and not surfaced until he saw the feds marching executives off to the Crowbar Hilton.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    28. Re:They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      I don't see where they meet all 4 requirements for this defense... There was no immediate and inescapable threat of harm that ran the entire length of their employment as they where largely free to do what they wanted and where being paid for their work.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    29. Re:They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      But you are still better off with the cops over the mob guys who have beaten you up and threatened you and your family. If moral and ethical obligations don't drive you do the cops, then getting beat up should. If you end up dead for going to the cops, then it was likely you would have eventually ended up there anyway and what did you loose? Not much.

      But in this case, the story doesn't add up all that well. Yea they try to make the case that they where forced into this, but what the claim doesn't add up. They where running around free, even claim they tried to get "fired" by making their stuff not work all the time. They had ample opportunity to leave, but kept taking the money, full knowing where it came from. There story smells like the trash bin behind the fish monger's. I suppose it might be true, but it could just be an attempt at a book/movie deal too.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    30. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Dude, that's the second time. There is no "h" in "were". "Were" as in "they were walking around." "Where" as in "Where are you?" And for good measure, let's contract "we are" to make "we're" as in "We're going to learn English today."

    31. Re:They are trying to get off... by bmajik · · Score: 1

      I cannot deny that much of what you've said about the mob is true. I didn't mean to say that the mob never did anything well, never provided benefits to neighborhoods or people, etc.

      Everyone understands that the mob can "Get things done". And, what's ironic is that, IIRC, you and I have very different ideas about government, but we apparently agree that in some situations, the mob is more effective and occasionally preferable to local government.

      That said, I think you are papering over the intimidation, violence, and property destruction done by the mob.

      (I'm not papering over the intimidation, violence, and property destruction done by governments, fwiw)

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    32. Re: They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Where idiots what?

    33. Re:They are trying to get off... by barc0001 · · Score: 1

      > Intimidation is not an excuse.

      And how much comfort would that line bring you as you sat in the front row at your kid/sibling/parent's funeral? There's a reason the mob uses those tactics, because they work.

    34. Re:They are trying to get off... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Oh please, this situation wasn't a made for TV movie. Why do people keep talking like it is?

      These guys are trying to either get out of being punished or they are angling for a movie/book deal on their little bit of fiction...

      The more I read their little article, the more it reads like a really bad movie script.... So if it's even partially true, they are playing the con for some reason, and taking it at face value, they had ample opportunity to leave, but stayed and kept taking the money. They are criminals, or really bad writers...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    35. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I salute sir, for your valiant attempts to fix the internet.

    36. Re:They are trying to get off... by chasm22 · · Score: 1

      You seem pretty confident of yourself. How about innocent until proven guilty? Does that have a familiar ring to it ?

      Their story has the same familiar ring to it as the stories told by many people in the US who have been forced or coerced into criminal activity by the American mob.

      Maybe you missed the part about the raid on Adibelli's house? You know, the part where he got away because the authorities believe he was tipped off. Put your thinking cap on. Who do you think had the knowledge to tip him off? Well, unless the police publicly announced the raid my guess is it had to come from a cop. Or maybe you think it was a stroke of luck that the main guy just happened to escape before the raid?

      You did read the part where the pair thought about going to the police but didn't because they were afraid that it would anger Adibelli and the others? Again, why would they fear that happening unless they assumed someone at the police department would inform on them? Narcotics money has a nasty habit of corrupting all walks of life.

      The fact that they found multiple weapons during the same raid, including a silenced machine gun, would also lend credibility to the story about Adibelli flashing a gun at them.

      And then there's the overall picture. Try googling 'Antwerp drug violence' for that picture. Others here seem to think the gangs there fire pastry at each other. Maybe that's why you don't accept that they were in danger at any point.

      To make a blanket accusation that these guys didn't have anything to fear and just did what they did for the money defies reality. It is the equivalent of saying there's never been anyone that's been coerced into crime. I believe the truth is somewhat less clear. I'm not saying they're innocent, just that I believe they deserve their day in court.

    37. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without being there it's hard to know what choices they had or did not have. But you seem so sure of yourself. There are many criminal orgs that will kill or maim your or your loved ones without a second thought. They rule by power and fear, and like killing. Their rep for violence and murder keeps the rest of their members and victims in their tight control. I would bet money that you would cave just as quickly if these techniques were used on you.

    38. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First contact is you get a joy ride through the center of town in a 25 mile an hour zone at 125 mph right past police cruisers who don not show any interest, that's to let you know the score. Second contact your are threatened and intimidated by an associate and then get a call regarding the next job they want you to do a 3 in the morning at a local 7-11. Third contact? there is no third contact. The question is did you pass the intelligence test.

    39. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe because we're reaching a point where people no longer respect The Establishment. Corrupt governments, corrupt courts, purchased and unjust laws, corrupt law enforcement officers. It just goes on and on.

      If you have a choice to keep the money and just part ways, treating it as a learning experience for yourself, leaving these guys to keep breaking drug laws, which are dubious and unpopular anyway, OR going to the "law" and hoping YOU don't get implicated in all of this as the prime perp instead of a victim, and risking your families lives in the meantime, it's not so black & white any more.

    40. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dead man's switch is only a deterrant if you tell them of its existence. Its leverage vs leverage. Mob can hit at you safely via proxies. Worse you could do back is send documents off which might not even be admissable in court vs their amazing lawyers. Thats a big bet. You'd also be nervous setting it up. If it ever misfired, you've lost your leverage.

    41. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, you're right. Nobody's ever been threatened with violence before. That shit only happens in the movies. In real life the cops always protect you, the bad guys always get caught and go to jail, justice prevails, and everybody lives happily ever after. Just like an episode of The Andy Griffith Show. Now who's getting their ideas from TV shows?

      Are you that naive and ignorant? Or are you just a shill for johnny law? I always see handful of people like you in any forum, telling people to always do what Big Brother tells them to, don't question authority, that no law is ever to be broken under any circumstances, and for God's sake, don't ever think for yourselves!

    42. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think that "not willing to part from the 25k" while making 12k to 20k a month with legit consulting business makes a whole lot of sense, imho.

      Clearly money was not the motivator here. I believe these guys just wanted to be done with it. I was involved in financial investigations in my past, and I can tell you that if the courts give back assets you're pretty damn sure they checked, double and triple checked before they do that.

      I believe there is a far simpler and more plausible explanation. Warning, it's so simple it may wreck your brain :-)))

      Ever had that feeling you just hoped everything was just a bad dream and you just totally wanted to forget about it? That.

    43. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just ignorant.

      That's the same logic as saying we don't need to fear terrorists because they don't bomb the place 24/7. You don't need to have a gun pressed against your head 24/7 to feel threatened. That's how fear works. If there's anything criminals know, it's how to intimidate.

      Also, I think we're only reading the tip of the iceberg about this. We have no clue what these guys did or didn't do, nor if they ever undertook any attempts to escape earlier on or get in touch with police.

    44. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So your choice is (a) go to the cops who will threat you as a suspect and proceed to coerce you in their own way into becoming an informer and be exposed sooner or later for being a snitch, or (b) plot your own escape and hope it all blows over? Gee, I wonder what 99,9% of us would do...

    45. Re:They are trying to get off... by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      You've never imagined having a gun to your kids' head, have you?

      life > illegality

      Yeah but it's not the movies. "Mob" doesn't necessarily mean Ndrangheta. A lot of these "organisations" aren't smart enough or tenacious enough to run CIA style man-hunts on ex-minions.

    46. Re:They are trying to get off... by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Where are you living, Sicily?

    47. Re:They are trying to get off... by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      You walk into the local PD.

      Walk. How 20th Century.

      This is the thing, back in the day cops ruled their local area and if they were bad eggs you were screwed. But these days you report to central facility, most likely a call centre, there is oversight and accountability. It's just too hard to get away with being a bad cop these days. Sure they still exist, but unlike the old days where they could make a life of it, these days they get found out pretty quickly (which is why we have so many bad cop stories these days).

    48. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that only one of them needs to shoot you or your family, whereas you have to avoid all of them for the rest of your life.
      They don't need to be holding a gun to your head 24/7. All they need to do is convince you that if you go to the police they will be able to find you, or someone in your family at some point in the future.
      And it's impossible to hide all your family for the rest of time.
      Your wife and kids can probably enter witness protection with you, but what about your parents, uncles, cousins, nieces and nephews?
      What about friends?

      Are you sure the feds will round up every single member of this gang, and that none of them will have a family member willing to take revenge?

    49. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Oh please, this situation wasn't a made for TV movie.
      You're right.
      In the real world bloggers don't get beheaded just for posting some shit online.
      People don't get shot dead in broad daylight in the middle of the street because they were mistaken for someone else.
      People don't get burned alive because they snitched.
      Cops don't get tortured just because they are cops.
      Your five year old kids don't get dismembered just because you didn't pay on time.
      That's just movies.
      Oh wait, these things happen all the time in the real world.

    50. Re:They are trying to get off... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you miss the point.

      It's easy to say what course of action somebody else should have taken in hindsight, especially when you're not that person. Being there and doing that is a different matter entirely.

    51. Re:They are trying to get off... by maestroX · · Score: 1

      You've never imagined having a gun to your kids' head, have you? life > illegality

      No, seen other people's kids addicted to drugs down the drain.
      Also, I'm pretty sure the criminals have been robbed from their twinkies long ago, as if I care.

    52. Re:They are trying to get off... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      One of the guys complained, and the voice on the other end of the phone started reading the addresses of his loved ones, including a secluded property where his wife was alone. With that hanging over your head and scant confidence in picking up the whole organisation in one fell swoop, going to the authorities seems rather fruitless. Believe what you want, Rambo.

    53. Re:They are trying to get off... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You are so short-sighted it's amazing. The gang was large, international, well-funded, and well equipped. They had demonstrated their detailed knowledge of the guys' families, and who knows what else they knew. Any attempt to reach out to the police might have ended in violence to their families, something they (unlike you) seem to be reluctant to encourage.

    54. Re:They are trying to get off... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      The article leaves out a lot of details, so a rational person will say "I don't know", and not immediately launch into a mouth-frothy tirade of condemnation and venom based on scant details. You are so quick to judge these people, and clearly without sufficient evidence. You don't strike me as a particularly rational person.

    55. Re: They are trying to get off... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You missed a third option: You don't know all the facts and are engaging in a judgemental bout of ass-delving, overly-confident in the fact that your hastily-constructed opinion is once again an accurate reflection of reality. And it's "were", not "where".

    56. Re:They are trying to get off... by Xest · · Score: 1

      Yeah but apparently these guys had plenty of money too. If a gun to your kids head was a real threat you'd get them the fuck out of the country and out of reach of these guys pronto.

      There are very few organised crime groups that have a worldwide reach and many countries are no go zones for them.

    57. Re:They are trying to get off... by Xest · · Score: 1

      That's why the obvious solution is to move somewhere where the local mob doesn't have any presence.

      These people had the money and resources to do that but they chose not to and to remain complicit.

      Head abroad, claim asylum if need be, and work with the police there. It becomes impossible for them to follow you and touch you. The strength these organised gangs have is also their weakness- you're absolutely right that in their home territory they have tough and sophisticated networks, but as soon as they start trying to dabble in those networks elsewhere, in someone else's territory, they're out of their depth and in trouble - they'll need local criminal support to do what they need to do, but criminals tend not to like other criminals infringing on their territory.

      I'd wager the life expectancy of a couple of Italian-American mobsters from Chicago in somewhere like Croydon, South London, for example is probably about the duration of a couple of jabs with a knife. That's assuming local informants haven't already tagged you to the police because you stood out like a sore thumb. The best bet is probably to pay someone local to do the job, but in a country like the UK you'd be hard pressed to find someone who had the resources to both do it, and do it without being caught and without you similarly being tagged.

      I'm not saying it's still without it's risks, but I'd wager the risks are still lower than working with them in the hope that they wont suddenly decide you're a loose end, a risk, or surplus to requirements regardless.

  8. de haxx0rz are de m0b na0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    oh wait, it r de odder wai 'round.

  9. Private Materiel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PricewaterhouseCoopers' digital forensics team

    You are now aware that the Big Four accounting firms responsible for the vast majority of fraud in the modern financial system have teams of IT pros with expertises in digital fraud and sophisticated computer crime.

  10. yepper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This starts at childhood in the football programs of the world, here give a crap about some random ass person you never met and why he lost x number of dollars on play y over a bet you cared nothing about.

  11. A more fundamental debate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps we should pierce through this story, and focus on a more important question.

    If all these guys did was provide a couple of sabotaged pwnies, what criminal charges will they be brought under? And more relevant, if I roll my own pwnies and sell them on the interwebs to somebody that proceeds to hack the world with them, am I an accomplice? Following the logic of the police, it seems they should start bringing down pwnie express too, and thousands of hacking tools... Again, under the assumption they were no deeper involved.

    Where do hacking tools stop and cyberweapons start?

  12. Held Captive by Fear by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    You've never imagined having a gun to your kids' head, have you?

    No... But this is NOT the movies or TV. Nobody was being held captive, they had their personal cell phones, cars, homes and where freely walking around. Nobody had a gun to their head 24/7...

    Surely there was a time and opportunity to make a move to reach out to authorities, make a phone call, send an E-mail or two, or get somebody in your family to help you. This went on for MONTHS.... Surely there was a number of possible exit ramps one could have taken. Heck, they claim to have had enough time to discuss and implement ways to disrupt what was going on. They had time and opportunity to get out if they wanted too.

    This is not how most captivity works. People are held captive by fear and intimidation relatively easily, we just don't expect or and rarely understand it if it's not a part of *our* lives. Domestic Violence is probably the most common example--someone acts as a thug and beats up a person who is physically less powerful or fearful and emotionally unwilling to fight back. The spouse could usually call for help a hundred times a day but just doesn't. She's afraid, for herself or her kids. Human trafficking works the same way--you manipulate someone, show a willingness to show extreme violence, then throw them out on a corner and tell them they better get you some money.

    Captivity is not usually about bars, it's about psychological power structures that most humans are susceptible to.

  13. Going to Feds by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    Go to the feds, preferably anonymously (although it's hard to do that reliably without lawbreaking). But I would always do that *after* I made sure my family was safe, or for family members who refused to be safe at least had a lot of guns. You never know when the feds have a leak, or where they're going to share information with a local police force that has a leak, for example. They're not particularly bright about how they go after organized crime and public corruption (or else they'd be asking for tips and for anonymous information a *lot* more than they do). Hell, they could post a slashdot story under the radar and ask people how to deal with a corrupt building inspector and might get lots of stories.

    Does GP really think organized crime in Russia doesn't get a phone call from the cops if there's a problem?

  14. I am on the side of by EdwardFurlong · · Score: 1

    thinking the mob is more about threats than action. Is it really worth the risk to bring murder to the table? They don't want the heat. I bet the guys would have been fine if they jumped ship and kept their mouths closed. It's not like they were really "running the it department", more like got involved in one IT gig.