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FTC Officials Looking Into Apple's Streaming Business Model, Say Sources

Apple may have a bigger business problem than displeasing Taylor Swift with its new Apple Music service; According to Reuters, U.S. regulators are said (by anonymous sources) to be looking into Apple's treatment of music-streaming rivals, now that the company has gone from selling only downloadable music to competing directly with alternatives like Spotify and Pandora. A slice: While $9.99 has emerged as the going monthly rate for music subscriptions, including Apple's, some streaming companies complain that Apple's cut forces them to either charge more in the App Store than they do on other platforms or erode their profit margins. The Federal Trade Commission is looking at the issue but has not begun a formal investigation, said the three industry sources, who requested anonymity. The agency has had meetings with multiple concerned parties, one source said. The agency meets with companies routinely, and a formal investigation may not materialize.

53 comments

  1. Computers? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 4, Funny

    Remember when Apple used to make computers?

    Pepperidge Farm remembers.

  2. And if you're too young to get the reference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    1. Re:And if you're too young to get the reference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one is too young to get the reference, Family Guy makes the joke all the time. If anything, people are too old to get the reference.

  3. Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This could be a cut-and-dry case. There has already been a lot of history with providers that also distribute. Typically you cannot put your competitors in a position where they cannot compete by controlling distribution. Of course, the details will determine the outcome; but, we've disallowed power companies selling electricity to dip into the profits of their electricity selling competitors by charging exorbant fees to use their power lines.

    Yes, the power line fees are still there, but the companies that maintain the were forced to spin off the distribution network as a separate company, with independent management. I'd love to see the Apple Store do just that. It would separate all of the times when Apple abuses it's store front to put their products first at the expense of what people want.

    1. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't use a modern necessity as a comparison, music is not necessary to live in 2015. Also, the power lines here are the Internet which Apple does not own nor control. And music from artist A isn't the same as music from artist B (although a lot of artists are extremely similar these days).

      What we need is... a car analogy!

    2. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by ClaraBow · · Score: 0

      It isn't a cut-and-dry case because there are other ways for providers to distribute their streaming music products without paying Apple. For example http://www.macnn.com/articles/... " > Spotify is encouraging users to bypass the Apple store and sign up directly through their website. Amazon does this too.

    3. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The part you are missing is "monopoly". Apple doesn't have a monopoly in computers, phones or tablets... If they aren't colluding with other companies, they can do whatever they want.

    4. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by ClaraBow · · Score: 1

      Sorry about the broken link. Here is the story about Spotify

    5. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by irtza · · Score: 1

      how about a car sales analogy instead?

      Its like GM opening up a dealership to compete with a franchisee down the street. This is prohibited by law.

      --
      When all else fails, try.
    6. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by radarskiy · · Score: 2

      " If they aren't colluding with other companies"

      Except they already are, so we can skip this clause. They are making contracts with their suppliers that fix the prices for other people who are not a party to the contract negotiations.

    7. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      But there are not other ways to *buy* the product from the label, and the labels contracts with Apple fix the prices for other purchasers with them being a party to the negotiations.

    8. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The part you are missing is "monopoly".

      No, a monopoly is not required. Just significant market power, which we know Apple does indeed have.

    9. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      The part you are missing is "monopoly". Apple doesn't have a monopoly in computers, phones or tablets...

      Keep in mind, it depends on what the FTC decides what the "market" is.

      For example, Microsoft maintained that they did not have a monopoly in personal computer operating systems because of Apple. However, the FTC ruled that they did have a monopoly in operating systems for Intel-based computers. Since Apple, at the time, used PowerPC processors, Microsoft couldn't use Apple's market share to claim they didn't have a monopoly.

      While Apple does not have a monopoly in computers, phones, or tablets, it might be more difficult to maintain that Apple does not have a monopoly in the sale of music.

    10. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by Great+Big+Bird · · Score: 1

      Tell Tesla that.

    11. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Tell them what? That they can't legally compete with their non-existant franchisee?

    12. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Tell them what? That they can't legally compete with their non-existant franchisee?

      No. That they must have a certain distribution model.

    13. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by macs4all · · Score: 1

      The part you are missing is "monopoly". Apple doesn't have a monopoly in computers, phones or tablets... If they aren't colluding with other companies, they can do whatever they want.

      And they CERTAINLY don't have a monopoly on streaming music services.

    14. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by macs4all · · Score: 1

      " If they aren't colluding with other companies"

      Except they already are, so we can skip this clause. They are making contracts with their suppliers that fix the prices for other people who are not a party to the contract negotiations.

      Um, this happens ALL the time in distribution agreements.

      If you don't think the price that one distributor doesn't potentially affect the deals given to other distributors, you are sadly mistaken.

    15. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by macs4all · · Score: 1

      While Apple does not have a monopoly in computers, phones, or tablets, it might be more difficult to maintain that Apple does not have a monopoly in the sale of music. [toptenreviews.com]

      RU Sirius?!?

      There is NO WAY that Apple has a Monopolistic-sized share of the music distribution business. Maybe of the DOWNLOADED music business; but certainly not of the sale of CD/DVD media (in which they simply don't get involved), and certainly not in the music streaming business, unless they had one HELLUVA week with Apple Music subscriptions!

    16. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      Music from artist A and music from artist B are not the same product. But streaming artist A from Apple, Google, Microsoft, Spotify, Rhapsody, Tidal, Deezer, etc. pretty much are the same product. The purchasing process and the provided applications vary but the end result is the same, artist A comes out of your speakers.

    17. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      " If they aren't colluding with other companies"

      Except they already are, so we can skip this clause. They are making contracts with their suppliers that fix the prices for other people who are not a party to the contract negotiations.

      Which Spotify has done before Apple - you do agree that Apple should sue them.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    18. Re:Some precedent in the claimed wrongdoing by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Maybe of the DOWNLOADED music business; but certainly not of the sale of CD/DVD media (in which they simply don't get involved),

      Uh...digital music sales beat CDs a long time ago. And Apple themselves says that they are the largest distributor of music in the US, including physical media distributors.

      So, nice try.

      Again, though, it is not illegal to have a monopoly. The issue is whether or not Apple is using it's monopoly in music distribution to hurt rivals in another market.

  4. Seems reasonable. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Informative

    It doesn't seem surprising that the FTC would be nosing around. Apple got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, pretty damn seriously, in their 'negotiations' with book publishers(apparently Steve doesn't know not to commit illegal conspiracy over email...); and now they have an arrangement where they specifically forbid any of their competitors from doing anything in-app that would circumvent Apple's 30% cut(apps that can only be signed up for online are OK; but such apps are forbidden to link to the signup page in-app; either no sign-up information, or Apple-provided payment mechanism only); which more or less assures that they'll be able to undercut their competitors on iOS, unless some miracle has made the labels 30% or more more generous in their dealings with that competitor.

    The barring a successful claim that iOS doesn't actually have market power; which seems unlikely, I'm not sure why this would pass scrutiny now that Apple has a direct competitor in the water.

    1. Re:Seems reasonable. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...iOS doesn't actually have market power...

      Oh boy, I can't wait to see the replies to your post!

      The Apple fanboys will defend Apple by saying that Android has a bigger marketshare, hence Apple can't have a monopoly.

      The Android fanboys will blame Apple by saying that iOS has the actual market power, hence Apple are guilty.

    2. Re:Seems reasonable. by rsborg · · Score: 1

      Apple's 30% cut(apps that can only be signed up for online are OK; but such apps are forbidden to link to the signup page in-app; either no sign-up information, or Apple-provided payment mechanism only); which more or less assures that they'll be able to undercut their competitors on iOS, unless some miracle has made the labels 30% or more more generous in their dealings with that competitor.

      When I setup my Amazon/Audible account, I did it on a web page (even if it was on iOS), and in fact, that's where I continue to make my purchases (the webpage simply directs back to the app once I've bought a book). It's fairly easy. With Spotify, it's even less of an issue - the user only has to do this transaction once. Arguably, Spotify should simply force users to do what Amazon/Audible do - transact outside of the App for purchases.

      Why should Apple be forced to help Spotify make their App simpler piggybacking on the simplicity of iOS without renumeration? Allowing purchases within an iOS app is not some sovereign right of an app creator. It's Apple's rules, and is not dissimilar from Google's rules (even the % is the same - 30%).

      Finally, Spotify is owned (20% from last accounting) [1] by the music industry - it's their (very successful) stalking horse into streaming music, which is partly why they've been so successful - Spotify got deals/labels that other apps (Pandora, LastFM) simply could not. It's quite ironic that Spotify is complaining that they can't compete -they've been the ones benefiting from an unlevel playing field for years.

      [1] http://www.swedishwire.com/job...

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    3. Re:Seems reasonable. by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      If a developer goes through the trouble of creating a native UI within their app to handle purchases, along with the infrastructure to complete the transaction, Apple should not be able to deny such capability. Of course, Apple does have a say because they can reject an app submission for any, or no, reason at all. As an iOS developer, I'd love to see the Courts knock Apple down for this one.

    4. Re:Seems reasonable. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      If a 3rd party wishes to use Apple as a payment processor, then I'd agree that Apple has reason to expect a cut: payment processing costs money from anyone; and Apple's large collection of people with payment information already keyed in and a willingness to click 'buy' is certainly valuable.

      Where I suspect that Apple may run into trouble(and would not mind in the slightest if they did), is the fact that they currently both forbid an app to link to an outside payment page(you can allude in general terms to the fact that purchases are to be made on your website; but you aren't allowed to embed the pertinent part of the site in your app or link to it directly) and Apple takes the same 30% for things like app purchases, where they do the payment processing, the storage, the delivery, etc. and for subscriptions purchased in-app, where they do nothing but the payment processing.

      Were Apple to allow people to integrate their own payment mechanisms for subscription(even at the level of just using a webview of the appropriate page in their app), the situation would be of much less concern. They could probably still justify a price on the high end of the range for payment processors, thanks to their convenient integration and large customer base; but they currently forbid any level of integration from anyone who isn't them. When they place everyone else at this considerable and partially artificial disadvantage and offer competing services in certain areas, that seems like a problem.

    5. Re:Seems reasonable. by macs4all · · Score: 1

      It's quite ironic that Spotify is complaining that they can't compete -they've been the ones benefiting from an unlevel playing field for years.

      Mod Parent Up!

    6. Re:Seems reasonable. by macs4all · · Score: 1

      If a developer goes through the trouble of creating a native UI within their app to handle purchases, along with the infrastructure to complete the transaction, Apple should not be able to deny such capability. Of course, Apple does have a say because they can reject an app submission for any, or no, reason at all. As an iOS developer, I'd love to see the Courts knock Apple down for this one.

      Why? Their store, their rules. Nothing anti-trust about it. No one is forcing you to make a living writing iOS apps, are they?

    7. Re:Seems reasonable. by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Were Apple to allow people to integrate their own payment mechanisms for subscription(even at the level of just using a webview of the appropriate page in their app), the situation would be of much less concern.

      Yes, but they would lose a very important measure of control over in-App scamming and phishing. Not everything is a money-grab, ya know....

    8. Re:Seems reasonable. by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1
      Funny how you don't complain about Google's in-app-purchase policies.

      Developers offering products within another category [but Games] of app downloaded from Google Play must use Google Play In-app Billing as the method of payment, except:

      where payment is solely for physical products; or
      where payment is for digital content that may be consumed outside of the app itself (e.g., buying songs that can be played on other music players).

      And yes, Google Play In-app Billing for digital products also is to be used for "Subscription services, such as streaming music".

      So even if Google doesn't want a share of the profits (yet), they most certainly require apps on the Play Store to use their In App Purchase processing service. Something which you want to deny Apple.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
  5. Do as I say, not as I do by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    Apple charges directly for music as a competitor.

    Apple charges competitors a cut for being on app store.

    Nice. Government can't complain as it does this all the time.

    Sell lottery tickets, keep half off the top. Remaining half goes out as prize money. Tax that at 39%.

    Net haul from lottery: ~70%

    Ironic government would quickly jail a private gambling operation that house-lopsided.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re: Do as I say, not as I do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The lottery isn't gambling. It is a voluntary tax self-imposed by those who failed math in school. Gambling is always a game of chance, but the lottery is a game of stupidity, than which nothing is more sure to lose nor less random.

    2. Re:Do as I say, not as I do by spire3661 · · Score: 2

      "Nice. Government can't complain as it does this all the time."

      A government is not a business. The two are not analogs and your comparison is crap.

      --
      Good-bye
    3. Re: Do as I say, not as I do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone knows that the only way to become president is to make a name for yourself at a non-profit organization. Businessmen need not apply.

  6. No Apple fan... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But looks like someone shorted apple stock and needed an event to make it pay, unnamed sources...might not materialize what a vague bunch of shit.

  7. Easily solved by msobkow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple just needs to have the streaming music division pay the appstore division the same fees as everyone else to level the playing field. The fact that they own both competing divisions then becomes a moot point, legally.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:Easily solved by alvinrod · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't know if they'd be able to easily do that as the information that has come out has suggested they're already giving something like $.72 of every dollar to the record companies, so the only way to pay another division $.30 of every dollar would be to operate at a loss, which would likely lead to a different investigation for what amounts to dumping.

      The easier approach would be for Apple to have their service follow the same guidelines where it can't have in-app sign-up which would preclude it from paying the other department and place it squarely within the same set of rules as its competitors.

      In reality it's far more legally complicated than that as some non-Apple entity wouldn't have gotten the same deal as any entity that is or is some sub-part of Apple itself.

    2. Re:Easily solved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not hard for them to do without in-app payments. They just need to send people to iTunes to pay/signup.

    3. Re:Easily solved by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      The really, actually simple solution is to change the terms for subscriptions and be done with it.

      Realistically, Apple's not competing on price. I could've signed up for Rdio or Spotify ages ago and I know enough to do it online and save myself the 'convenience' cost of doing it in the application. Apple has already got the power of defaults working for it, really strong industry ties, and the fact that it doesn't bleed money hand over fist by having a free tier that can't pay for itself. Spotify loses money because so few of its users convert to paid subscriptions, but still makes the majority of its income off of those few (20%, I think?) subscribers.

      I'm paying for Apple music (or I will be, when the 3 month trial is up) because it's integrated with the applications that I already use to listen to music, and my library is available to me without any extra effort on my part. It's too good to pass up, assuming I'm going to pay for a service at all.

      Spotify (and everyone else) will NEVER make good advertising revenue because the people that the advertisers want to reach most—the people with money that are willing to spend it—are the people that have selectively removed themselves from the pool of people being advertised too. All they're left with is people that are either unable to pay, or don't think they should have to pay. It's a poor value proposition.

      Apple doesn't need to bleed money off of Spotify anymore, and it's silly to keep doing it. The possibility of a lawsuit shouldn't be worth anyone's time.

    4. Re:Easily solved by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 2

      No, the result would be that the artists would get less money.

      The artist payments from streaming services are calculated based on the actual revenue collected by the company. If Apple did this shell game, the artist share would only be 70% (or whatever their actual percentage is) of $7 rather than 70% of $10. The norm for other services has been that no royalties at all have been paid for listening during trial periods, because 70% of $0 is $0. Apple was forced to cave and pay royalties for their trial period because of its unusual length (competing services offer much shorter trial periods) and the expectation that a large number of users would sign up for it.

      Spotify is different because its free listening tier is ad-supported rather than a free trial of the full service. It has two separate payment pools; one for subscribers and another for ad-supported free listeners. The subscriber plays currently pay artists about 10 times as much as the ad-supported plays. That can change depending on how successful the company is at selling ads.

  8. This is why they bought Beats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We all should understand by now how Apple works. The only difference is that today Cook cares less about product and more about bottom line. At least Jobs
    pushed out decent products that held up and were worthy of the price. Now we know Jobs did some dirty deals with Apple books and Apple paid they price. So we
    should not be surprised they would so it with music too. Buying Beats probably had more perks then a streaming startup and high image product line in headphones. No Apple bought some other goodies with Beats that most definitely benefited Apple.

  9. Erode profit margins by madsenj37 · · Score: 0

    Eroding profit margins is to be expected when competition enters the market place. That claim by itself should not be good enough to file a complaint. If they mean underpricing in order to bankrupt the competition, they should state that, otherwise there is no formal complaint here.

    --
    Choosing the lesser of two evils is a choice for evil.
  10. Who gives a flying shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't use apple products, problem solved.

  11. Re:Swift is the wealthy kid of wealthy bankers by KGIII · · Score: 1

    I do not know this singer or anything about her but, really, what is your point? Why is this important and how does it pertain to the subject at hand?

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  12. This is what the iSheep want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is to have Appl€ get their vigorish at the expense of competitors. Why compete fairly when you have a built-in cult?

  13. Apple! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple = Slashdot Clickbait
    Apple going into a new business that other people have been into for a while = FTC investigations

    Translation: we don't care if anyone screws with the customers or the artists . . . until someone makes a profit doing it, then we investigate/fine/appoint some lawyer for millions/give business advantage to the businesses that can't figure it out

    Redistribution of wealth is a devil . . . until it's to established businesses . . . then it's, uh, free market? No, uhh, fair competition!

  14. Atlas Shrugged by TonyXL · · Score: 1

    If you don't like Apple's policies, don't do business with them.

  15. Some companies are more equal than others by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

    The root of the complaint is that Apple is giving itself a competitive revenue advantage in this market. If an iOS user buys an Apple Music subscription, Apple gets $10. If that user buys a subscription to another service through an iOS app, Apple gets $3 and the subscription provider gets $7 - EVERY MONTH. The margins in streaming music are small, so giving all that money to somebody else hurts the streaming companies. (It also hurts the artists because of the way streaming payments to artists are calculated; the artist share is now 70% of $7 rather than 70% of $10.) The other services can sell subscriptions through other channels, in which case Apple doesn't get any money, but Apple won't let them promote those other channels in the app.

    A reasonable compromise might be to allow Apple to get their 30% once. The app would take your first month's fee (with Apple getting a cut), but after that it would redirect users to the service's web site to buy an ongoing subscription.