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The Free Software Foundation's Statement On Canonical's Updated Licensing Terms

New submitter donaldrobertson writes: After two years of negotiations, Canonical has updated the intellectual property rights policy for Ubuntu Linux to address a disagreement over how the software is licensed. The FSF announcement reads in part: "In July 2013, the FSF, after receiving numerous complaints from the free software community, brought serious problems with the policy to Canonical's attention. Since then, on behalf of the FSF, the GNU Project, and a coalition of other concerned free software activists, we have engaged in many conversations with Canonical's management and legal team proposing and analyzing significant revisions of the overall text. We have worked closely throughout this process with the Software Freedom Conservancy, who provides their expert analysis in a statement published today." Richard Stallman thinks there are still other issues to address saying: "While the FSF acknowledges that the first update emerging from that process solves the most pressing issue with the policy ... the policy remains problematic in ways that prevent us from endorsing it as a model for others."

75 comments

  1. Stallman quote by OzPeter · · Score: 1, Troll

    While I am not 100% in agreement with Stallman all the time (EG I am vehemently against toe cheese), where the hell did the quote from him in the TFS originate? It is not in TFA.

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    1. Re:Stallman quote by OzPeter · · Score: 1, Redundant

      D'oh moment. The text of the quote is in TFA, but there is no attribution that it was Stallman who said it.

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    2. Re:Stallman quote by halivar · · Score: 3, Funny

      Correction: It's GNU/Stallman.

  2. Extremist by BitZtream · · Score: 0, Troll

    Stallman is an extremist... There was never any possibility of satisfying him, it's not worth the effort to even try. He's kind of a free software terrorist if you think about it because if you don't do it his way he makes it his personal agenda to hurt your product.

    He's also a massive hypocrite who says "it's fine to make money from free software" and then proceeds to bitch and moan about anyone who does other than himself because apparently the only legitimate way to make money in his mind is by eating toenails and being a leech on society.

    So ... Who gives a shit if Stallman approved, no one that actually matters.

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    1. Re:Extremist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree, "free software police state" is more like it.

    2. Re:Extremist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, Stallmann is an extremist and I am extremely grateful that he does take that part.

      Without people willing to be extreme and to pay the price for that, we would have a much smaller outlook on the world. We would lead smaller debates and go for smaller goals. And yes, we probably would applaud canonical for being very explicitly about them granting you the rights you already had before.

    3. Re:Extremist by BitZtream · · Score: 0

      Really? You think Stallman is the only one in the free software world? He's not the only one, he's not the first, his just a loud mouth prick that arguably does more to hurt the image than help it.

      GNU isn't HIS just because he came up with the idea, he is part of it. It would exist without him in some other form because the people involved with it would still have done it and you have no idea (nor do I) if the world would be more or less friendly to OSS. All he does is rant and rave and make an ass out of him self. No one that matters takes him seriously. Linus and Alan Cox have done more for free software this year than Stallman has ever done, and they aren't even trying.

      --
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    4. Re:Extremist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He may not be the only voice in the free software world, but he is one of the most proactive.

      Linus is sometimes willing to give his $0.02 about something outside the kernel, if you ask directly. RMS may be highly opinionated and abrasive, but at least he's out there pushing back at those that would take away rights. That's certainly more than a couple complaints on some tech forum (said the AC).

    5. Re:Extremist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stallman is an Extreme "ideas" person, yes, but at least his heart's in the right place. He's not so much of an extremist to advocate that every piece of software is inherently bad unless it's GPL3 (not LGPL at all.) But his ideas do run along the idea that Linux should be a walled garden to keep all non-GPLv3 software out. That is where he oversteps in many arguments.

      I'm of the opinion that proprietary software, and their licenses are required to prevent "blackbox" hacking/cheating/malware/etc from spreading like wildfire from a lit cigarette in a tinder-dry forest. Protection mechanisms are easily defeated when the source code to them is available. But where a lot of these proprietary "blackboxes" are, exist in places that are anti-consumer (eg DRM) and are so half-heartedly thought out, that they can only be fixed by throwing out the previous protection mechanism, and all customers existing purchases with it.

      Like MMO games are one place where open source is entirely detrimental. The most popular hacking tools are open source, with many of the botting scripts being little more than open source tools packaged with malware. Open source tools allow capturing and injection of packets, which means that to prevent packet injection, requires encryption of all communications, even that which is benign, just to avoid crashing game clients should the server relay an over-sized packet that DoS's everyone connected. It's an uphill battle fighting RMT wars.

    6. Re:Extremist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice opinion, how much do they pay you for them?

    7. Re:Extremist by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 4, Insightful

      GNU is nice, but his real contribution was the GPL. Without the GPL, Linux (including servers, x86, and Android) would be nowhere near where it is today. I'd argue even BSD wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today without spillover effects from what the GPL has wrought. In the early days of the GPL, the concept of a corporation giving away source code for free was utterly foreign and many people even argued that it would be legally infeasible for a public corporation to do (responsibility the shareholders, blah blah blah.)

      If the GPL didn't exist, corporations would not voluntarily open source ANYTHING for ANY reason and in that 'tragedy of the commons' situation all would suffer (including most IT corporations... except the ones who were already doing well building their own monoliths, e.g. Microsoft.)

    8. Re: Extremist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More people have done more for software that is free than Stallman, but not more than him for Free software. Linus had said over and over that he works on Linux because it is fun and does not care about the politics. For you, laws are based on politics, not fun. Linus has enough power and money to ignore the laws and politics. You do not.

    9. Re:Extremist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but he is one of the most proactive.

      Nuclear bombs are proactive, but we can both agree they are pretty much never a good thing, can't we?

      He takes the nuclear approach, ALWAYS. More harm than good.

      but he is one of the most proactive.

      Nuclear bombs are proactive, but we can both agree they are pretty much never a good thing, can't we?

      He takes the nuclear approach, ALWAYS. More harm than good.

      Who ever said they weren't good. Place a few strategically in the world and our ISIS problems goes away for 50 years give or take, but this isn't about nuclear bombs now is it?

    10. Re:Extremist by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      but he is one of the most proactive.

      Nuclear bombs are proactive, but we can both agree they are pretty much never a good thing, can't we?

      He takes the nuclear approach, ALWAYS. More harm than good.

      Nuclear bombs are not proactive. Nor are they reactive. Nuclear bombs are just that -- nuclear bombs. However, they can be used proactively or reactively, but it is the human person that makes that choice, not the bomb.

    11. Re:Extremist by davester666 · · Score: 1

      He makes everyone else in the industry look normal and well adjusted.

      --
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    12. Re:Extremist by KGIII · · Score: 1

      What price is he paying? Do not get me wrong - I like what he has done but, really, it is not like he has been burdened by it really. He is an extremist and he gets push back from that but that is just the way things go when you are an extremist. I am grateful for him, I am glad that he has the vision he has. I just do not see it as a burden. You say "pay the price for that" like it has been hard. No, he has gained more from his position than he would have had he been just a moderately concerned person where software freedoms are concerned.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    13. Re:Extremist by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Umm... I seem to recall a different story than you. Software was free, source and all. You paid for the hardware and the support.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    14. Re:Extremist by exomondo · · Score: 0

      RMS may be highly opinionated and abrasive, but at least he's out there pushing back at those that would take away rights.

      These days so much of it is just spreading FUD rather than real issues though. Just look at The Javascript Trap and tell me why a normal user would care about that. It's a similar story with the anti-Windows, anti-iOS, anti-SaaS, etc... diatribes, we have had Windows for 20-something years and iOS for 8 years so you would think that if that fear-mongering were well founded then there would be countless concrete examples of non-trivial harm done by non-free software that could be referenced to convince users that it is a bad idea.

      There's also this idea that freedom is "taken away", which we all know is rubbish, it's the same false argument the RIAA/MPAA use with "lost profits". If you receive a binary licensed under the GPL you are granted the right to the source code, you didn't have that before. If you receive a proprietary binary you are not granted the right to the source code, it is not a right you had before that has now been "taken away".

      The free software idea is great but the message is unconvincing. It's all well and good to rip on somebody else's new product by spreading this fear that it is a vehicle for bad things to happen but taking the iPhone for example, has there really been any non-trivial harm to manifest from all these supposed problems?

      Free software should have a lot to offer so it should be a positive message rather than a negative - somewhat abstract and unspecific - fear-mongering of its competitors. The freedom aspect should be a value-add to a superior product.

    15. Re:Extremist by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The thing is, there's really three forms of free/libre/open source and what Linus wanted and what RMS wanted happened to overlap, but RMS is preaching something far beyond the actual requirements of the GPLv2.

      1. People will contribute back on their own (non-copyleft)
      2. I want your code for my project, no keepsies (Linus)
      3. Users should be able to modify everything (RMS)

      Linus chose the GPLv2 because he as a developer wants to incorporate additions or modifications others have made into his own project, he doesn't care if end user devices like TiVo lock it down to signed binaries. This seems to be a common sentiment among kernel developers which is why they have made no move towards migrating to GPLv3. That of course puts RMS on full tilt as it's completely contrary to his vision, but he's not getting a lot of support.

      The kernel isn't budging, Google seems to prefer the Apache license, LLVM is almost ready to replace GCC and none of the major toolkits have gone GPLv3 only, it's only the GNU projects under FSF control and they're becoming less and less essential for the whole system. Also increasingly more and more of the interesting code moves to services in the cloud, an Android phone is just a front-end to Google. And those are nearly all closed source, the AGPL is a rare beast.

      --
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    16. Re:Extremist by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      Um. What software are you referring to? Because I remember "don't copy that floppy".

      If you're talking about some kind of 80s Sun-ish setup where you paid 5 figures for a workstation, well, despite its success at the time this was not representative of the industry as a whole and that business model obviously was not viable with the rise of the "x86 compatible". I'm specifically talking about the environment surrounding commodity hardware, not early (and doomed) business models that merely shifted the restrictions from software to hardware.

    17. Re:Extremist by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      I mean, IBM compatible

    18. Re:Extremist by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      I'm fine with debate and criticism of specific points. I even agree with several criticisms of RMS; the point is, he doesn't pose a threat to anyone of importance. His fringe ideas hurt no one. He's done nothing but huge, massively huge good things for the computing world and the few entities he has hurt were the abusive, monopolistic companies holding the rest of us (including plenty of for-profit businesses) back. So, my main point is simply to highlight the hysteria that seems to come up every time his name is mentioned. It seems disingenuous at best, and some kind of demented, pointless paid-shill program at worst.

      As for the GPL3, well, RMS is obviously correct in principle. In practice, there are political issues involved involving corporate contributions and Linus's apathy.

      Google's dogged preference for Apache (replacing GPL components as quickly as possible) is nothing short of terrifying to anyone who understands how the mobile device market wars are shaping up. Whittling out the GPL components gives them a kill switch for AOSP, which they will use if and only when they need to. Until then, they're going to ride their OSS geek cred for all it's worth and hope no one kicks up too much of a fuss over their very troubling war on microSD slots.

      Anyway, I reiterate: permissive licenses didn't see significant corporate contributions until after GPL projects (and in particular the success of companies like Red Hat) proved that it could be work. If permissive is the future then so be it; the fact still remains that it was the GPL that opened the door to this revolution, and where permissive licenses are being preferred they are preferred precisely to the extent that businesses want to steer the community away from GPL alternatives.

      In all I don't necessarily disagree with the majority of your post, but stating things as they are at this moment in time is not really the point. The pendulum has swung back and forth a lot over the past couple of decades, and we're still in the middle of a major slugfest over the mobile / cloud markets. Nothing can be known for sure until the dust from that battle begins to settle and Google/Amazon/Apple/MSFT/[other survivors] begin to look around, tighten belts, and decide what their long term policies are re: OSS and user freedom in general.

    19. Re:Extremist by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      You realize this kind of thing is like endlessly mocking Gandhi for being bald and barefoot, right? I'm not implying that RMS's actions put him on par with Gandhi; I am merely pointing out that the more you mock the man for his eccentricities (including some of his personal political opinions, which aren't harming anyone), the more shallow and trivial and insincere you appear. If you have something to say about the history or impact of OSS or the current state of affairs, feel free to say so.

    20. Re:Extremist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RMS may be highly opinionated and abrasive, but at least he's out there pushing back at those that would take away rights.

      ... If you receive a binary licensed under the GPL you are granted the right to the source code, you didn't have that before. If you receive a proprietary binary you are not granted the right to the source code, it is not a right you had before that has now been "taken away".

      ...

      It goes further than that. It's the difference between "free" (as in speech) and "free" (as in beer). Its been increasingly the case that you don't own software you paid for, you merely license it. Adobe and Microsoft both do this. That $700 you spent on Photoshop a few years back? that's just a license, you can't easily sell it to someone else. That $200+ you spent on Windows? same deal.

      At least with Linux you are free to do whatever you want with it.

    21. Re:Extremist by davester666 · · Score: 1

      If you publicly do things that most people find extremely bizarre, it affects your credibility, even on completely unrelated things.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    22. Re:Extremist by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      Ghandi was, as I said, weirdly barefoot... and he also liked to sleep in the same bed as teenage girls (with both naked), sometimes including his niece, in order to test and prove his commitment to celibacy. This, I believe, qualifies as "bizarre" and yet I think the man may have effected a few concrete changes in the world that are worth mentioning.

      Linux without RMS ==> Linux without the GPL ==> Linux without significant contributions from Red Hat, Suse/Novell, IBM, Canonical, etc. That doesn't mean you need to support everything that comes out of the man's mouth, but he has an extremely good track record on predicting what will and what won't be healthy for free software re: corporate contributions, which is what this article is about. (See also: Trolltech, BitKeeper)

    23. Re:Extremist by davester666 · · Score: 1

      RMS ain't no Ghandi.

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    24. Re:Extremist by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      Congratulations on your wonderful reading comprehension. I anticipated and explicitly rejected that lamely predictable misreading of the analogy in my first reply.

    25. Re:Extremist by exomondo · · Score: 1

      It goes further than that. It's the difference between "free" (as in speech) and "free" (as in beer). Its been increasingly the case that you don't own software you paid for, you merely license it.

      That's the same with Free Software, it is licensed to you.

      At least with Linux you are free to do whatever you want with it.

      Within the terms of the Gnu Public License v2.0.

  3. Just migrate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Due to the stupid decisions of Canonical, we have decided to migrate our 3095 Ubuntu boxes to Debian. The future of Ubuntu looks unclear with the clusterfuck that is going on with both the corporation and its community.

    1. Re:Just migrate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Debian was probably the worst choice of a distro to migrate to. It may have been convenient due to Ubuntu being based off of it, but Debian has its own very serious set of problems. Since Debian switched to systemd some time ago, many users have reported many serious problems. The mailing lists and bug tracker are full of these reports. The switch to systemd itself was very disruptive, and went against the wishes of a huge part of the Debian community. This ended up fracturing the community, and caused a lot of animosity between the Debian collaborators. This is such a divisive issue because systemd is such a critical part of a Linux system, yet its flaws are numerous and its benefits to users are few. As I'm sure you're aware sysadmins can't have Linux servers that don't boot properly.

      FreeBSD would have been a better choice to migrate to. It gives many of the advantages of Linux distros, but with a much, much slimmer chance of systemd or a systemd-like system ever being used. The few attempts to suggest such systems have been rejected by the FreeBSD community at large. Many of the best Debian users and sysadmins ended up switching to FreeBSD after the whole systemd disaster pretty much ruined Debian for them.

      I think you've just gone from one set of problems to another set of very similar problems, I am afraid to say!

    2. Re: Just migrate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Most Debian users? Is this fact or you just pulling information out of your ass? Care to share your sources?

    3. Re:Just migrate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      systemd will NEVER end up in the BSDs.

      Theo de Raadt is another outspoken free software proponent. He can be abrasive, but he gets the job done. Leaders of any organization need to be rough and tumble. It's not easy being in leadership. As my dad would say, "you're not in leadership to make friends, you're there to get a job done". The mission always comes first. People come and go, but if the mission is to succeed, good leadership says and does what is required, even if that is offensive to some.

      Linus, Theo, Richard and others in free software leadership do not have it easy. They are frequently targets of abuse, especially from inside their own camps. Of these three men, Theo is my favourite in terms of leadership and implementation. He walks the walk and talks the talk. His stance on no binary blobs in the OpenBSD base system is something Linux should have done. His developers are largely spot on. I remember one debacle about a network driver that was open source. The Linux guys wouldn't share their precious GPL code which was about 30k lines of code. Theo's guys rewrote the driver in less than 10k of code and it has more functionality. This is typical from what I've seen working with both BSDs and Linux since the late 90s. BSD code seems to be better engineered while Linux/GPL'd code seems to be hacked together. Just a thought, no need for a flame war...

    4. Re:Just migrate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Systemd uses kernel features unique to Linux, of course it won't be in BSD.

    5. Re: Just migrate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no requirement to cite sources when you're slamming systemd. It is what it is. FACT.

    6. Re: Just migrate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most Debian users?

      Jesus Christ. How the fuck did the parent comment get modded up? The word "most" doesn't even appear in the grandparent comment!

      It's not even the straw man fallacy in this case. The parent commenter is just making up quotes.

      Pathetic!

    7. Re:Just migrate! by tadas · · Score: 1

      OMG! Did you really just add a systemd troll to a Stallman-bashing troll thread?

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      This page accidentally left blank
    8. Re: Just migrate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And there's why you'll never convince anyone.

      You're no better than the shitdicks who went to the Occupy protests just to get stoned in public, you don't even know what you're protesting. Pathetic.

    9. Re:Just migrate! by godrik · · Score: 1

      What are the stupid decisions from Canonical you talk about? (This is an actual question, I stopped following ubuntu when they broke gnuplot and latex while I was writting my PhD dissertation.)

    10. Re:Just migrate! by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I have to be honest here and admit I can not actually see a good reason to have even had Ubuntu as your server OS at a scale that large at all. Servers is not really what they seemed to ever really be interested in - or that market so to speak. They have always wanted to be a viable desktop alternative and have constantly pushed their funding and efforts in that direction or, well, in the direction where it was in the hands of users and not really so important in the hands of admins. That is how I have perceived it at any rate. Maybe I am missing something?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    11. Re:Just migrate! by Phil+Urich · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think you are missing a bit.

      For one, Ubuntu has actually become quite popular on the server at scale, because they have put resources into Ubuntu Server as a product---they just don't necessarily advertise it in ways that get splashy coverage on /. or Ars or such which do tend to be more about consumer-level tech products. But they have indeed put effort into it; they even have their own management tool called Landscape.

      Secondly, their release cadence works a bit better than Debian for many server applications, since even their LTS releases come out a bit more frequently than Debian releases (although Debian has been getting more consistent lately) and there's the non-LTS every-six-months releases to be used if one needs a relatively updated base OS, whereas for something like Debian you're basically on the stable every-second-year releases or on unstable, no middle ground.

      --
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    12. Re:Just migrate! by KGIII · · Score: 1

      That makes more sense. I figured I had to be missing something. I have not really tracked Ubuntu enough I suppose. I do use a derivative though with LinuxMint. I'd not recommend Mint for server use though it would work.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  4. Logical fallacies galore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your quite ridiculous personal attack on Stallman suggests that you are mentally and socially challenged, with no developed sense of propriety nor common decency, and certainly no ability with logic.

    You probably thought that your crass invective constituted reasoning. Alas it didn't, but merely highlighted your intellectual shortcomings.

    The following will probably be far beyond your capability, but I suggest that you spend a few years trying to understand the concept of Logical Fallacy before posting again on this subject or on any other.

    1. Re:Logical fallacies galore by BitZtream · · Score: 0

      Your quite ridiculous personal attack on Stallman suggests that you are mentally and socially challenged, with no developed sense of propriety nor common decency, and certainly no ability with logic.

      Pot, meet kettle, you're both black.

      And best still, the anonymous coward rants against the identified user with excellent karma. Yea, its me that has the social issues, you're so right.

      Shut up fanboy.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  5. The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm still trying to figure out why Stallman can't be mentioned without a dozen users spewing the same cliched tirades, against a person who... has done what, exactly? Advocates a distro (gnewsense) that virtually nobody uses because it unnecessarily removes free software? Yeah, God damn him. He's ruining everything. Well, except for giving us the license that led to Android being an open source project, instead of being another locked down iOS-ish experience. And for giving us the license that's given desktop and server Linux users to millions upon millions of dollars of corporate-sponsored contributions that would have otherwise been locked down and lost in obscurity (also, absolutely destroying what very well might have been a Microsoft monopoly in the x86 server market before it had a chance to take off) whilst the BSD-based OSX remains locked down and illegal to use if you don't buy overpriced Apple hardware.

    But no, the man has some 'extreme' personal views, which he does not try to involuntarily foist on any users anywhere and he occasionally tries to convince companies to voluntarily behave in ways that are healthier for the free software ecosystem, so therefore he must be bashed every time his name is mentioned. Oh, and he expects that people who voluntarily agree to the GPL to abide by its terms.

    Goddamn terrorist.

    1. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's a school yard level attack on the guy who actually accomplished something great as it makes those that never tried to do anything look bad in comparison.

      People simply can't handle him having more stature than they are when he's just a dirty hippy and they are the smartest thing to ever make a computer go beep.

      The endless ad hominems are the give away, it's all they've got.

    2. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still trying to figure out why Stallman can't be mentioned without a dozen users spewing the same cliched tirades, against a person who... has done what, exactly?

      Threw a hissy fit at KDE daring to use a library (Qt) that was available under more than one licence, one of which was ... COMMERCIAL!!!! This forked the linux desktop efforts, starting Gnome. So I say thanks to RMS it still isn't the year of linux on the desktop. M$ is grateful.

    3. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      That's way too much credit for a software license that's not popular outside of the OSS community, and is far from the only one in it. Such as... Apache's.

      Linux succeeded in the server market despite the GPL. What's the GPL do for third party driver developers? It's a boat anchor.

      Android, you don't have the source to reproduce the software environment that actually ships with your phone, so what has it really accomplished?

    4. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Android, you don't have the source to reproduce the software environment that actually ships with your phone, so what has it really accomplished?

      You don't what the what, now?

    5. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by r_a_trip · · Score: 4, Informative

      The dual licensing of Qt came after the creation of the Gnome DE. Before that the Qt license was "free" (no licensing fees) for non-commercial use, but not FOSS and that was the point of contention.

      Stallman is OK with dual licensing, as it is up to the licensee to go with the closed license. The FOSS licensed variant makes sure that one can choose which.

      --
      # touch universe # chmod +rwx universe # ./universe
    6. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what foreverdisillusioned just said; Stallman disagrees with unfree software.

    7. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by silentcoder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Correct on both counts, and Stallman has publicly agreed with me when I stated that "A duel license is, to the user, no different than a non-copyleft license. The impact on freedom is exactly the same as using the BSD licenses. The user who gets it from you gets freedom, but the user who gets it from a third party may not".
      So from his agreement in a public forum when I used that argument, I think we can surmise that he holds the same view. He would not try to stop a dual license anymore than he has tried to stop BSD licenses, he just thinks that copyleft is better.

      The really funny thing is that people complain he isn't enough of a pragmatist... which really proves their ignorance. Stallman's ideal world is one where software cannot be copyrighted, and source code distribution is mandatory if you sell binaries. This is repeatedly said in his writings.
      But it isn't what he is pushing for, he isn't arguing in courts for that, he isn't sending letters to congress for that. He did not try to pursue a, probably unreachable, ideal - instead he chose a pragmatic solution, the copyleft license, to create a self-perpetuating system that produces free software into the market, forcing non-free software to compete with it.
      That will not give him his ideal, it will never eradicate non-free software, but it did make the world a lot better than it would have otherwise been. He also wrote the LGPL - which violates his own cherished ideals even further, because pragmatically - it was better to have it and let proprietory software run on GNU than to NOT have it and have people avoid GNU altogether because they can't replace a proprietory tool yet.

      The man's history is not of an extremist or an idealist, quite the contrary - it's a history of tactical pragmatism. He does STATE his ideals, but he has never been so blinded by them as to let the perfect be the ENEMY of the good.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    8. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux succeeded in the server market despite the GPL. What's the GPL do for third party driver developers? It's a boat anchor.

      The companies want to hide behind binary blobs, and non-disclosure agreements. That is not the fault of the GPL. If you had all open hardware in the device, there would be no problem creating GPL drivers.

    9. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BSD-based OSX remains locked down and illegal to use if you don't buy overpriced Apple hardware.

      The BSD based part of it Darwin is open source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)

    10. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The man's history is not of an extremist or an idealist, quite the contrary - it's a history of tactical pragmatism.

      Will all due respect, he's an extremist. He has put the position that if you need to use proprietary software in order to do your job (as in there are no suitable free alternatives), you should find a job that does. In my case that would mean giving up my career/meal ticket because of his ideology. He honestly feels this is a reasonable and realistic course of action. You CANNOT put this position in front of people - people will completely ignore you and not take you seriously and whatever message about the "evils" of proprietary software will fall of deaf ears.

      Stallman says a lot about what you should not be doing, but he generally doesn't give palatable alternatives that a normal person can follow. To most, what he offers would provide them less than what they already have.

    11. Re: The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Strawman. He has never said that without adding: "seriously though, it's ok to use a proprietary program in that scenario provided you contribute in whatever way you can to projects that aim to create free alternatives to that software so that the situation isn't permanent but can ultimately be changed".

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    12. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      Yes yes, as I mentioned in another post all of the big players (Google, Apple, Microsoft) have supported limited open source projects as a PR / goodwill type thing, and also sometimes to reap the benefits of community fixes. This is NOT the same thing as open sourcing virtually every piece of your main/only product.

      The fact remains that what Apple did with their OS X (originally NeXTSTEP) is nothing like what Red Hat did with their OS, and these differences are directly traceable to the ramifications of the differing software licenses. Red Hat did NOT tolerate CentOS out of the goodness of their heart. Very early on they made it pretty clear they were displeased with their existence (although I think they've since made nice.)

    13. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      Yeah, as other people have noted this is pure crap. Qt wasn't open source; it was "free for non-commercial use", with the company retaining the option to change terms at any time. It was precisely because of GNOME that Trolltech eventually gave in and open sourced it. On top of that, after years with GNOME as a slowly improving competitor KDE decided stopped to sucking and make stability a higher priority instead of focusing all of their energy on building custom desktop KDefaultApplications that no one used.

      So, RMS was right on that count, and he was even more right about BitKeeper being a bad move. (Linus's occasional silly claims that it was still worth it belies the fact that he didn't begin work on Git until after BK was shut down.)

      Got any more fun lies to sling our way?

    14. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      There's extremist and there's extremist. Saying "people should do X" is not the same thing as lobbying politicians and boycotting and trying to shame people into agreeing with you.

      Stallman has a few extreme views. And that's fine, because the track record of his actions and their effect on the IT world are not one of a dangerous extremist. As the parent poster said, they are one of a pragmatist, and I cannot imagine a realistic series of events that would render RMS's slightly nuttier ideas dangerous in the real world.

      It's the difference between someone saying "you shouldn't shop at Walmart--here's where I shop instead" and someone picketing outside the store and writing letters to local politicians to try to get the place shut down. There is a clear difference.

    15. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by jbn-o · · Score: 1

      Slashdot seems to me to be a proponent of the open source movement, the software development methodology that Bradley Kuhn rightly called "greenwashing" (another copy) the free software movement by talking about much the same software and licenses but without the freedom talk in order to placate business interests seeking to proprietarize software. Consider the case in this thread—defending copyleft—this clearly shows the difference between the two movements. The older free software movement wants to preserve software freedom while the younger open source movement was built to not discuss software freedom at all. Kuhn's personal blog post on this topic describes the situation very well and with no punches pulled.

      When you come across someone who talks and works to defend software freedom, such as Richard Stallman, in a forum whose participants are (be they a proprietor's shill or genuinely describing their own view) devoted to supporting the kind of power over the user that strongly copylefted licenses, such as the GNU GPLs, were built to withstand you're going to find people using whatever namecalling and misrepresentative tactics they can come up with to try and malign Stallman (as if that would somehow reflect badly on software freedom). The complaints get weaker over time (remember when people used to complain that the GPL wasn't defensible in court?) so the objectors have to find other avenues to try and distract people into not thinking in terms of software freedom. It wouldn't matter if software freedom were proposed and initially championed by someone wholly objectionable; that wouldn't make software freedom a bad thing. Talking about Stallman instead of talking about software freedom is doing that distractionary work because the facts on the ground fail to back the case that we're better off without software freedom.

    16. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

      Yeah... I'm not sure what's more bizarre: the possibility that these are shills (note that some of them have fairly old user IDs) or the possibility that they are genuinely held convictions. I know one person in real life who genuinely believes this stuff, although I think I got him to grudgingly change his mind a little bit by repeatedly asking him to explain how and why a hypothetical "Red Hat BSD" could've ever been motivated to release all of their improvements to the community.

      It's completely a-historical. To a degree I can understand and accept someone having a personal/philosophical preference for permissive licenses, but they never stop there... they must go on to argue that the GPL has been holding Linux back, when we have decades of clear, concrete evidence to the contrary.

    17. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head again by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The other replies to this have already pointed out several inaccuracies/lies in this post, but I just wanted to point out:

      What's the GPL do for third party driver developers? It's a boat anchor.

      That means BSD has terrific hardware support then, right? Oh wait, they have generally had fairly crappy support (especially a few years back) and the only BSD that has had great support is, of course, the completely proprietary and locked down OS X that legally requires the purchase of overpriced hardware to use. Yay permissive licenses!

      Also, Google's Apache fetish is something to be viewed with great concern. There is no reason for them to spend so much money and effort replacing GPL components with Apache except to give them a kill switch for AOSP, which they will use the moment they feel the OSS crowd is more of a threat than a boon.

  6. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head againn by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 1

    * unnecessarily removes unfree software

  7. Text of Canonical's CLA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can anybody provide a link (or actual text) to Canonical's Contributor License Agreement? I googled and all I could find was this page which seems to be asking people to sign something they haven't even read.

    1. Re:Text of Canonical's CLA? by CurryCamel · · Score: 1

      Just follow your link, then click on "FAQ". Search for link named "Agreement".
      http://assets.ubuntu.com/sites/ubuntu/1473/u/files/section/legal/Canonical-HA-CLA-ANY-I_v1.2.pdf

  8. Re:The Anti-Stallman Brigade rears its head againn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No any software with licensing that he disagrees with.

  9. Re:GPL given too much credit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Too much truth written here. Too much for the mods to handle.

  10. Re:GPL given too much credit by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure what you expect to prove by listing a bunch of non-sequitur aphorisms. We have the facts in front of us, and it is very easy to imagine how the alternate universe would work by substituting "BSD" in place of "Linux". Does "Red Hat BSD" give away virtually their entire operating system for free, including modification and rebranding? No. No they fucking do not, and you cannot be taken seriously if you try to claim otherwise. I'm not talking about a minor permissive-licensed project (such as the kind that Apple or Google have been known to support) that doesn't affect the bottom line; we are talking about a software company open sourcing the lion's share of the code they write for their main/only product. There isn't a large, for-profit corporation in the world that does that kind of thing without some kind of legal compulsion. (Or perhaps you'd like to point out a sizable BSD-based for-profit distro that doesn't try to close source? They've had decades to come out with one.) So, admitting the absurdity of "Red Hat BSD" is step one.

    Step two is admitting that while there are a number of decent home-grown options today, corporate-originated apps and sometimes core components are still very commonplace in your average distro and 10+ years ago they were even more prominent and important, particularly for business and other semi-technical users. Without corporate contributions, particularly from Linux-centric businesses like RHAT, Linux would be a pale shadow of what it is today, not just because it's hard to find full time volunteers but also because the whole thing needed a sustained kickstart before it reached a level where it was useful and appealing to people who weren't already hardcore Unix enthusiasts.

    And... that's it. Admit those two things, and it's self-evidently true that the GPL was and is critical to Linux's success. This isn't philosophy any more; this is proven history. BSD gave us Apple's unholy reincarnation. GPL gave us Red Hat, Canonical, Novell, IBM, and dozens of other companies paying hundreds of developers to work on Linux full time, and every step along the way made perfect logical sense. There is no mystery as to why it happened this way.

    If you want to argue otherwise, you're going to have to do a lot better than what you wrote there. For starters, you could try referring to reality once in a while.

  11. Stallman is that guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like to think Richard Stallman is that guy. We all know one. Has to correct you. You can't just say Linux you have to say GNU/Linux. Which is cumbersome as hell. Beyond the GPL he hasn't contributed much. He just became more of a pompous talking head then anything else. I personally just don't like the guy cause of those reasons alone.

  12. Re:GPL given too much credit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it is very easy to imagine how the alternate universe would work by substituting "BSD" in place of "Linux". Does "Red Hat BSD" give away virtually their entire operating system for free, including modification and rebranding?

    The great thing is we don't have to imagine; the history of BSD is clear; first BSD/386 took a bunch of potential developers and users and then failed. Then there were a bunch of other failures. Then Apple took it all completely proprietary.