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John Conway: All Play and No Work For a Genius

An anonymous reader points out Quanta's spotlight piece on mathematician John Conway, whose best known mathematical contribution is probably his "Game of Life," which has inspired many a screensaver and more than a few computer science careers. From the article: Based at Princeton University, though he found fame at Cambridge (as a student and professor from 1957 to 1987), John Horton Conway, 77, claims never to have worked a day in his life. Instead, he purports to have frittered away reams and reams of time playing. Yet he is Princeton's John von Neumann Professor in Applied and Computational Mathematics (now emeritus). He's a fellow of the Royal Society. And he is roundly praised as a genius. "The word 'genius' gets misused an awful lot," said Persi Diaconis, a mathematician at Stanford University. "John Conway is a genius. And the thing about John is he'll think about anything. He has a real sense of whimsy. You can't put him in a mathematical box."

55 comments

  1. Whimsy? Won't sit in a cubicle?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    So he's an unemployable loser who has done absolutely nothing valuable with his life. Doesn't he know the only way to success is to sell crap to idiots?!

    1. Re:Whimsy? Won't sit in a cubicle?? by jthill · · Score: 1

      lol /.ers doing a lot of whiffing on this one. It's sad.

      --
      As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
    2. Re:Whimsy? Won't sit in a cubicle?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So he's an unemployable loser who has done absolutely nothing valuable with his life. Doesn't he know the only way to success is to sell crap to idiots?!

      Why is this modded as a troll? It is clearly sarcasm. Maybe not witty, but not a troll.

  2. Re: You too can be like John Conway! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You jealous bro?

  3. What was Andy Kaufman like? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Was he more like Latka or more like Elvis?

  4. Box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can put him in a mathematical box and all I need is 3 dimensions.

  5. Re:"The word 'genius' gets misused an awful lot," by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yes, lets all hail the mathematical achievements of 'Sexconker' instead, rofl.

  6. Re:"The word 'genius' gets misused an awful lot," by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ahhhh, baseless mockery. Where would the loser's ego be without it?

  7. "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    while developers in the US work seven days a week without vacation time. In the little over thirty years since I graduated UNC, I've only had a single contiguous week off. I manage a team of about forty architects and sixty developers, and I know none of them have had an entire week off since I got this job in 2007. We've all worked months at a time doing "hundreds" (16 hours a day weekdays plus about ten hours a day on weekends) to make a release. I need to find one of those jobs where you get paid for not working. I'm sick of this industry and how it is most economical to work developers to near death. In a normal eight hour work day, probably only a 1/3 of it can be dedicated to coding for the average dev position. If you can work a developer sixteen hours a day, then that mean instead of only being productive 2 2/3 hours (1/3 of 8) per day, you can be productive 10 2/3 hours a day. Fred Brooks figured that out over forty years ago then published The Mythical Man-Month. You can't add developers to a project to get it done faster. By forcing developers to work sixteen hour days, they have four times as much time to do coding. Yes, the pay is great, but the job takes its toil.

    1. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by ledow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Meanwhile, in civilised countries, that's an illegal working environment.

    2. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Takes its "toll", loser. What kind of an abysmal banana republic you posting from anyways?

    3. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In civilized countries, a person wouldn't choose to do such a thing. I don't think there are any countries that force a person to go to sleep, or relax, or have a beer. Thirty or forty years ago, such a person as the GP would be called a "capitalist" in Europe... because they seek the dollar at all costs.

      Why not quit, go work a more relaxing job, as long as it pays your bills? There is no accounting at the end of your life where someone says, "ah, yes, you paid your bills, had a happy family, were a good person in your town and in your country, but your revenue was a bit low, you're condemned to hell!"

    4. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds to me like your problem is not being a developer or in the industry, but the place of work..or if this has been 30 years for you, your criteria for a job.

      I've worked 100+ in a week one time by choice..and found a new job very quickly where i wouldn't have to make that sort of choice again. (19 years of exp in systems development). I take at least a week off every summer.

      Just moved to Belgium, if you don't want to work move here, everyone takes an entire month off in the summer and another 2 weeks off around xmas/newyears. Its insanity to me (coming from the US work culture, they feel the same way about only getting 20 days a year).

    5. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't think there are any countries that force a person to go to sleep, or relax, or have a beer.

      And you would be wrong. In most European countries there's a limit to how many hours a week and how many days a year you can work. Forced vacation is a thing in my country.

      There is no accounting at the end of your life where someone says, "ah, yes, you paid your bills, had a happy family, were a good person in your town and in your country, but your revenue was a bit low, you're condemned to hell!"

      Have you ever heard of the protestant work ethic? Because that's exactly what it says: hard work is the way to salvation.

    6. Re: "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You bastard. Give them a break mr. Manager.

    7. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they feel the same way about only getting 20 days a year

      20 days a year is 4 weeks, which is the norm in most (if not all) European countries.

      All the Americans I know have from 5 to 15 days plus sick days, which feels truly insane to me, bordering slavery. I work to live, not the other way around. That doesn't mean I sit on my ass 4 weeks a year (plus holidays), I dedicate that time to personal projects and personal growth (travelling, learning new things, etc). Of course, retiring before being 65 is an impossibility for almost all of us but, AFAIK (correct me if I am wrong), people with higher degrees can retire sometime around their 50s (49-54) in the US. I don't know which one I'd prefer.

    8. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by ledow · · Score: 1

      Seriously - try living elsewhere.

      http://cheezburger.com/4372082...

    9. Re: "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never retire? Where do you think your first job came from? Someone, somewhere, had to retire or die on the job. And for the next magic bean, you plan on working till you die? Such a good slave. What does it get you? Older, slower, less ability to adapt, can you take it with you, or is there another cog to fill the void, just around the corner? Will it work for less? That's all the masters care about. Look at the day they put in... Did they even think of you, or your output, or even your maintance? Yeah, right or even the job, or that next bauble, jag, or beach? But something as mundane as the job?

    10. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm the GP, and I'm an American living in France. As all online economics discussions go, let's have a reduction to something overly simplistic, shall we? Let's say you have a job splitting wood. Big pile of wood.

      - in the US, they hire you to split X amount of wood, and if you succeed, you get a good paycheck. If you fail, you get fired, and unemployment benefits are lousy. Hence, you work your ass off, and to hell with how many hours it takes.

      - in France, they hire you to work for Y amount of hours, and you should be splitting wood for Y hours. Far more relaxing, but you don't get paid as well as the American, and your promotion will depend on how much you split.

      In order to support the vacation, working hours, and other benefits of the European system in the US, you need to have a system that makes it harder to fire people -- but then in the US, you would get shouted down because "Unions!". But for all of this 35 hour work week stuff, I've met many people that work way more -- including the French teacher I worked with when I first arrived.

      That said, you could not worry about having the biggest possible paycheck and live more comfortably if you wanted in the US. And you can work more hours in France and get paid better. And as for this "Protestant work ethic" the other person mentioned... sure, I've heard of it. But let's just call it "culture", okay? Otherwise, you better be the age of my grandparents and living in the deep South, or I may have to warn you that you're showing the first signs of xenophobia, because there's plenty of hardworking non-Protestant people.

    11. Re: "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never understood people who complain about working a lot of hours. You are PAID to do it, and it is your choice, everyday, to either work or quit.

      I work a lot of hours, and I am paid well to do it. The day I decide that the pay is no longer "worth it", then I make a change. I'd wager I am paid considerably more than than people in Europe who take months of vacation time.

    12. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then they wonder why people snap, buy a gun and start blowing people away at random. There's more to life than just work, and if that's all that their life is, I truly am sorry for them. And yeah I know what hard work is. Try doing a medical intern year and then a medical residency in a 3rd world country in overcrowded understaffed and underfunded government hospitals. I figured in a good week I'd get maybe 20 hours' sleep.

    13. Re: "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by mrbester · · Score: 0

      Then you're a slave to the Almighty Dollar and in order to get it (hint: that's avarice) you're prepared to not only agree to work more hours a day than any other civilised country but also defend and advocate the practise.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    14. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To add slightly, someone that I taught before I came here, who has less experience, earns 3x what I do back in the US. He also sends work emails on the weekend, about what more work he'll be doing on the weekend, because they had a deadline the next week.

      I once sent a very short email to my boss in France around midnight, because well, that's when I finished the message. The next day he was in my office asking if I was feeling okay.

    15. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Forced vacation is a thing in my country.

      I've heard the urban legend that vacation it is "forced"... I have not encountered it in any of the countries that I have worked in. It is for sure in the culture but the word "forced" is too strong for the situation. You do what, code for a living? How is the government going to "stop" you from working, take away your computer and notepad and prevent you from thinking about numbers? Do they also throw you on a plane with a government issued bathing suit and insist that you sit on a beach?

      Now, if you do your job, perhaps the company cannot fire you for taking the mandated time off... this is a different thing.

      Who was the last one to get a raise in your company? The one that took the most vacations? Or the one that accomplished the most? In any culture the people make different assumptions on how a person should live, but 24 hours are in a day everywhere, and money comes from results everywhere.

    16. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Off-topic fantasy. 100% efficient in the second 8 hours, yeah right.

      Don't feed the troll.

    17. Re: "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Bengie · · Score: 1

      It's only a choice if you have other options. Not working is not an option for most.

    18. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At one place where I worked, there was someone who was forced to go to vacation as they hadn't taken one in a long time. To enforce this, IT was required to block their computer access, they had to hand over the keys & phone and reception was informed so they couldn't ask to be let in by them.

      That's about the extent of what normal company can do. In theory I guess they could have gotten another job to do during the vacation, but that's no longer employer's responsibility.

      And yes, once their vacation ended, access was restored. I do not know if they started taking proper vacations afterwards.

    19. Re: "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it's forced. In the UK, employers must offer at least 20 days vacation (to full time employees, terms and conditions apply), and employees must take at least 29 days. Otherwise you get things like "you have 20 days vacation, but we'll fire you if you take any", which I believe is not uncommon in the U.S.

      I work with people who have actually been forced by HR to take most of December off (we used to run on a January-December holiday year). Well, one person, and he's a bit weird. Most of us don't work non-stop for 11 months, so don't have that problem.

    20. Re: "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Never retire? Where do you think your first job came from?

      You seem to assume there is a fixed number of jobs that never changes. Do you really think there were billions of jobs billions of years ago? Or maybe you think there will only be billions of jobs billions of years from now.

    21. Re: "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      I've never understood people who complain about working a lot of hours. ...... I work a lot of hours, and I am paid well to do it. ........ I'd wager I am paid considerably more than than people in Europe who take months of vacation time.

      But what is the point if you do not have the time to "enjoy" that money?

      Despite living in the UK I actually have quite a lot of money earned from a middling profession career, and I would find it hard to spend it all. I already live where I want to live. I have a 10 year old car that I prefer to more recent models. I do all my own car and house maintenance because I enjoy doing it, like a hobby (one reason why I now have quite a lot of money). This PC has bits up to 15 years old and works fine. I don't give a shit about designer clothing, watches, iStuff, whatever. My ideal day out is walking in the countryside, which costs nothing.

      Billionaire plutocrats might have the best set of golf clubs that money can buy, but no time to play golf; and the biggest yachts in the Mediterranean - that sit in marinas almost unused. I calculate that Bill Gates, for example, could buy a new car on average every 15 seconds for the rest of his life - not enough time to get in and out again, what's the point?

      The fact is that for some people work is their hobby and their life (sounds like yours); but it isn't mine.

    22. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by ledow · · Score: 1

      Trust me, your employer will be hurt more for not complying - especially if YOU can prove they're not complying, or you were sacked because you tried to make them comply. This is what employment law is for. To protect both the employer and the employee.

      My boss has been on at me since June - I have two week's paid leave to take before September. I took one week, and an extra day. They aren't happy. But because of the timing, there was nothing they could do about it. They aren't CLOSE to the legal minimum, so it's not a matter for law, but they cannot be seen to be mistreating an employee.

      In countries with employment law, the law comes and sits on you hard if you don't do the basics. As such "forced leave" is a real thing, a very real thing. But if you're being asked to take it, something's already going wrong anyway.

      As the other poster says - people get ejected from the building and their access rescinded to MAKE them take a holiday. Because, for sure, if they don't do that and you later leave or have a heart attack or get pissed off and make a complaint, they have evidential and witnessed proof that they fulfilled their statutory "duty of care" to their employees and so can't end up the wrong side of a tribunal.

      Welcome to civilisation.

      (P.S. Overworking your staff deliberately makes you a fucking idiot as you either experience high-churn or stressed-out employees. Neither contribute to productivity. It doesn't matter how much you pay if no fucker will work for you).

    23. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by ivano · · Score: 1

      They take the time off in summer because of one thing...kids. If you don't have a family then you take your holidays whenever.
      In the US where do your kids go for a holiday? Do they go without their dad or mum? That just sounds...sad.

    24. Re: "never to have worked a day in his life," ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Marry a cute girl child.

    25. Re:"never to have worked a day in his life," ... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      I need to find one of those jobs where you get paid for not working.

      No, you need to find something that you're good enough at doing that you can complete sufficiently valuable work in a reasonable time. Clearly, your current work is not something that you're good at, and you need to do something more suited to your actual skills, not to what it says on your CV.

      substituting hours for skill is never a good trade off.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  8. Control Voice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Outer Limits?

    Red-headed bad transit cop in CI:SVU?

  9. Re:"The word 'genius' gets misused an awful lot," by tomxor · · Score: 1

    Yes, lets all hail the mathematical achievements of 'Sexconker' instead, rofl.

    Indeed!

    Did you see Sexconkers recent mathematical publication "Game Theory, Trolling and Mockery"? It's well worth a read.

  10. A character indeed by vix86 · · Score: 5, Informative

    John Conway is a genius. And the thing about John is he'll think about anything. He has a real sense of whimsy. You can't put him in a mathematical box.

    I came to the same conclusion about him as well after having seen him in some of the Numberphile videos on youtube.

    1. Re:A character indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > John Conway is a genius...

            John Thompson, himself a genius by most any measure, once told me that Conway had "the fastest brain west of the Urals."
            I knew him as a research student in Cantab. He was the best teacher I knew, and at the same time, the most eccentric. He's the demonstration that all our theories about pedagogy are not nearly complete enough.

  11. work to live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That attitude makes it difficult to get a job in the States. You must be "passionate" about you work - i.e. Work constantly and be available 24/7.

    If you don't like it, there is some slob from a third world country who will do it for less.
    Spiraling down.

    There are 7 billion people on Earth. Humans are the most abundant resource.

    1. Re:work to live by Terje+Mathisen · · Score: 1

      I live in Norway where we definitely work to live, not the opposite, but I did spend one year in the US back in 1991-92.

      During that year I know that I worked the least number of hours of any of the engineers in my department, averaging 45 hours/week, but I still got a couple of bonuses which they really didn't need to give me, since they knew that I was going back to Oslo after 12 months.

      Here in Norway we have 5 weeks of vacation time every year, and employers get in big trouble if they have any employees who don't take all of that. (You can push a maximum of two weeks in front of you from one year to the next.)

      OTOH my wife would gladly confirm that I spend a lot of hours in front of my PC every day, but I consider that to be some of my hobbies, not work. :-)

      I.e. stuff like NTP Hackers, Mill Computing, Lidar-based mapping work etc.

      Terje

      --
      "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
  12. Re:"The word 'genius' gets misused an awful lot," by khallow · · Score: 1, Funny

    He'll, of course, be most well known for his celebrated surgery theory on sexifolds, particularly the foundational Sexconker Decomposition Theorem which demonstrates that all sexifolds can be decomposed into basic topological components such as penisifolds, breastifolds, and analfolds. And if the sexifold is not oriented, then it has a peculiar bisexual structure.

  13. The new Bio is well written by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just finished the book titled "Genius at Play" by Siobhan Roberts (the authoress of TFA -she's pretty cute !).
    The book is very well written and entertaining.

    I just finished it, and am reading parts again.
    Stuff he did in group theory is mathematically bigger than the game of life stuff, though the Life stuff more accessible for the average /. reader.

    http://www.amazon.com/Genius-At-Play-Curious-Horton/dp/1620405938/ref=sr_1_1/187-0092711-3643703?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1440859361&sr=1-1&keywords=genius+at+play

    70% on Amazon give it 5 stars.

  14. A genius for sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Conway was my supervisor at Cambridge in the late '60s. I can still recall his telling me about the Game of Life and the estimate that $1million of computer time had been wasted the previous year "playing" it.

    He also pointed out the multiplication table of his group: a fanfold listing that reached around the four walls of his office. When I expressed the thought that it looked a little small for so large a group he exclaimed "oh, well each symbol stands for a 100x100 matrix".

    As for surreal numbers.....

    I have always said he is probably the only genius I have ever met.

    Having said which, he was a LOUSY teacher, because he could never understand why anyone found anything (mathematical) difficult: "just think of a determinant as a volume transform from one vector space to another".

    1. Re:A genius for sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What a strange comment from someone who studied maths in Cantab.
            If you think of a determinant as "a volume transform from one vector space to another" then all its important properties are obvious: det = large positive means "expanded" while det = small positive means "shrunk." Det = 1 means "pushed around maybe, but not really expanded or contracted", det = -1 means "flipped inside out", det = zero means "dimensions shrunk so you cannot invert the process", and so on.
            If instead you try to think of it as an alternating sum of products, as they might teach it in secondary school, the meanings and manipulations are not obvious, and the proofs where you need the concept get a lot harder.
            Conway told me many such summaries, and they almost always contained more insight in a sentence than other people managed in an hour of lecture.

  15. All Play and No Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yes, I'm sure his genius comes from playing around all the time. From being a Cambridge student, of maths no less - the biggest group of slackers if there ever was one - to a productive professorship, a Princeton chair, and multiple fellowships. Wow, what a player.

    I can either conclude that Conway has always devoted his time to work that was thoroughly enjoyable, or that news standards have degenerated considerably to appease pretentious slackers. Or both.

    1. Re:All Play and No Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Conway almost never used to give straight answers, and no doubt that hasn't changed.
            "Hasn't worked a day in his life" should be interpreted as "never had to work in a job he hated."
            The rest of us should be so fortunate.

  16. My first grade school computer program in 1970 by peter303 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Coincidentally my school got a Dartmouth BASIC teletype terminal to a nearby college computer within months of The LIFE article in Scientific American. So that became my first computer project. The display was an printed array of asterisks or blanks. At 110 baud or ten characters a second I recall the display was slower than the kilo-op computer. Five years later that was our term project in the MIT Digital Computer Lab. My partner built the rule engine out of TTL gates. I built the display from timed dots on an oscilloscope. Pixel graphics were still five years in the future. TTL was so fast even then that we had slow down the system to see the output. The lab only had a limited number of $100 one-kilobyte RAM, so we had to share them among projects.

    1. Re:My first grade school computer program in 1970 by Tokolosh · · Score: 2, Funny

      Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad would kill us, and dance about on our graves singing "Hallelujah."

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    2. Re:My first grade school computer program in 1970 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you (Tokolosh) couldnt hold yourself back from being a complete asshole.

  17. But he has worked for at least one day in his life by colinwb · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Or at any rate for at least 12 fairly continuous hours:

    Symmetry and the Monster - Gresham College

    An example of one [simple group] that was discovered using geometry is the Leech lattice. John Leech constructed a remarkable lattice in 24 dimensions. ... This lattice was absolutely brilliant. He [Leech] constructed it using Mathieu's largest group of permutations, and then he hawked this lattice around to a number of mathematicians, trying to get them to work on the symmetry group of the lattice.

    John Conway took this up. Now, Conway is a big name in mathematics, but at that time he wasn't well-known. He had a wife and four children, so he was a fairly busy man. He said to his wife, 'Look, this is really exciting - I really think this lattice is worth looking into. I have to have some time on my own to do it.' So they had an agreement that he would have from Wednesday 6pm to midnight, and Saturday midday to midnight. So on the first Saturday, he got himself all set to work on this. He took an enormous sheet of paper, a great long roll of paper, and started to write down everything he knew about the Leech Lattice. He worked and worked, and after about six hours of this, he finally decided he was getting somewhere. He was quite excited, and he picked up the phone and talked to John Thompson, because Conway and Thompson were both at Cambridge University.

    He [Conway] said, 'Look John, I think that the size of the group is either this number or it's half of that number.'
    Thompson said, 'I will think about it and call you back.' Twenty minutes later, Thompson called back and said, 'It's half that number!'
    He [Thompson?] said, 'But have you really got it?'
    He [Conway] said, 'No, but I need to find one new symmetry that we don't already know about.'
    So he got terribly excited and he worked, and then by about ten o'clock he phoned Thompson again, and he said, 'I've got it!'
    Thompson said, 'Well, that's great.'
    And he [Conway] said, 'I'm going to bed now - I'm really tired.'

    Then he thought, well, it is pretty stupid to go to bed, because I haven't actually got it; I have almost got it, but not yet! So he stayed up until after midnight, and then he rang Thompson one last time and said, 'I've got it,' and the next day, they worked together on studying this fascinating group of symmetries. At any rate, it was a wonderful group of symmetries 'very important, and it contains most of the other ones that were known at that time.

  18. Re: But he has worked for at least one day in his by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, but is that work?

    If a man stays up for 5 days straight tinkering with his model railway / restoring an old car / playing second life / drinking / doing some other hobby they enjoy then I'm not sure whether that can be classed as work.

    I'm sure Conway was having great fun exploring his group, and probably would have done it no matter what - see for example the thousands of phd students "working" on problems in science/maths for bugger all money and reduced future employment prospects (and yes I was once one of them).

    It's an addiction, it's great fun, and it's so rewarding you do it regardless of money (or lack of same) and often at significant personal cost. Whether you would call it work is entirely a semantics.

  19. Re: But he has worked for at least one day in his by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't marry a cute girl child either way, so who cares?
    "lost future"