Slashdot Mirror
Lack of Teacher Training Hampers UK Programming Education
An anonymous reader writes: The UK government recently introduced a new computer curriculum to the school system in order to get more kids into programming. Unfortunately, they're running into a serious problem: one-third of the secondary schools tasked with teaching these programs have not spent any money training their teachers on the requisite knowledge and technology. The government has provided £4.5 million for this training, and a number of schools have spent their share and more. But it's clearly not filtering down to every school, and that harms the children enrolled in these schools.
You sound like a mediocre (at best) NEA or AFT teacher shill. *Teachers* don't like these initiatives, it means they have to do more work, they have to learn something else beyond their (mediocre, at best) bachelor's degree. Of course their are exceptions, but in general, the prequel holds.
Most people cannot learn the required skills to any reasonable degree. At best this initiative will increase the number of really bad programmers. There are far too many of those already.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I agree with you, except for "they're" should be "their", as you no doubt know. You're probably to busy doing real work like prepping a lesson plan or learning your craft instead odd carefully creating a Slashdot post. Especially a shill post..
School started the first of the week and out came the signs and red shirts.
"Accountability"? I what are talking about? Are you just reciting soundbites from the last NEA meeting? If you indeed are teacher, I am worried about you, truly. An earthquake is beginning to rumble in your profession. Left, right, deomcrat , Republican - it doesn't matter. Technology will rip apart the profession. Soon there won't be any need foe mediocre teachers. The best teachers will mass produce top tier materials - *tutors* will take it from there. Students will learn a lot more.
My programming teachers are books, lots and lots of programming books, and the many kindhearted souls who generously share their knowledge over Usenet
There was no teacher to teach me programming - there was no computer in the class room at that time
All I had was an Atari, a left over Atari from my cousin who moved to America with his family - and some books
I spent months studying the books, key in the programs, and whatever I wasn't sure I post questions on Usenet (over dial-up line, using the left-over modem, and yes, from that same cousin)
I didn't need any stinking 'trained teachers' to begin my programming experience - and I have been making a decent living programming ever since
The fact or condition of being accountable; responsibility
is the definition of accountability. Maybe they'll change it next year?
Programmers are the future factory workers. /. readers get all exited when more and more kids are wooed into learning programming and to pick up extremely unhealthy lifestyle of typical IT professional, rotting away in front of glowins monitors.
I have no idea why
It will cover the salaries of a few competent programmers, providing that's what it is used for. No software developer with any competence is going to teach in the UK. The salaries are a joke, and massive amounts of government meddling and incompetence make the job a nightmare to do. The education secretary is also mentally incapacitated, and is utterly hostile to education professionals. He hasn't the skill to be an office secretary, let alone education secretary. The year-on-year pay cuts are just going to make matters worse. Jack up teaching salaries by 20-30%, then you might have a hope of hiring someone who knows what they are doing.
You meant Tories, right?
Irony isn't an adjective describing horseshoes, frying pans and nails.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I work IT in UK schools, state and private - always have, never had any other job. I don't teach (officially, at least) but I deal with their needs and the teachers and the pupils every single day.
I can tell you that in 15 years, I have seen precisely two "ICT" teachers who actually know the first thing about computers. One was a former industrial-control specialist for a HUGE chain of supermarkets, the other was a COBOL programmer from IBM. Both were in the industry for 20+ years and then moved into teaching as a career slowdown at the end. In their teaching, precisely NOTHING of their skill is employed as the curriculum doesn't come close. In their extra-curricular activities, it comes out and provides added value but those are attended only by the geeks and nerds anyway (we proudly count ourselves among the geeks and nerds, and that's the point at which I do do some "teaching" myself).
Every other ICT teacher I've ever met isn't someone I'd trust in charge of a dozen computers. I've seen ones that have been forced into the position by the lure of cash for teaching a specialism or being "ICT Coordinator". It means zip. I've been asked by those people why I can't just give them full domain admin access as a solution to the bit of software they bought (without consultation) that only reads MP3 automatically working without a single button press with the dictation machines they bought (without consultation) which only write copy-protected WMA. And I've literally had to show these people how to copy/paste THOUSANDS of times.
Most UK ICT teacher are the same. In fact, both the above "skilled" teachers wouldn't refer to themselves as ICT teachers. They see that as "computing" while they see themselves as "computer scientists". They only ever go by the name of "Head of IT" or whatever, never "ICT".
This filters down to the kids, then back up to the careers they go into. I've dealt with IT managers and consultants that haven't heard of virtualisation, that have no concept of networking or routing, that have NEVER CODED A LINE IN THEIR LIFE. Not a batch file, bash script, not a cscript, not a PowerShell (that wasn't copy/pasted from an online tutorial), PHP, nothing.
IT teaching in the UK is absolute shit. I have removed posters from IT Suites that still clearly advertise the PC chassis as a "hard drive" (a misconception that is rife in the teaching world), produced by a major UK educational supplier OVER 20 YEARS AGO.
There are stars out there, of course. But they are the exception. And IT is the one subject that you can't just get your degree 20 years ago and then hope to keep current with even the basics for the rest of your life ahead of a bunch of teenagers.
Currently, out of those two people, one has left teaching again and gone back to office work to retire, sick of being used as a babysitter. The other is considering moving on because they were pseudo-IT-Manager too for many years and tired of being treated like a second-class teacher, so they are dropping all their non-job-description tasks (they've already apologised to me, who will inherit them all).
We don't have IT teachers in schools in the UK. We have people who are "good at computers". We have people who can teach office skills and computing and play with bits of Lego. We have people that Google iPad apps and then make themselves look cool by forcing everyone to use the latest buzzword app. That think that presentations, video, "blogging", etc. are the ultimate things you can ever do on a computer.
We certainly do not have coders in schools. I have written more lines of code in an average year, just for hobby projects, than all of the other teachers (apart from those two above) that I have ever met put together throughout their entire careers.
I'm sure there are rare exceptions. But that's because they are ALREADY coders and then become teachers. Training existing teachers to be able to code? Good luck! Maybe if you hired on the basis of the skills they possess rather than
"Teaching algebra has no place in schools
Most people cannot learn the required skills to any reasonable degree. At best this initiative will increase the number of really bad mathematicians. There are far too many of those already."
See how stupid it sounds? How about nutrition/cooks? How about rugby/sportsman? It's fucking idiotic to suggest.
You teach above the level of the kids, you expose to the wonderful things in your subject, you inspire some to take it up, other to plan their career around it, they go to uni and learn how to do it properly (and churn through the boring shit that they aren't interested in because they've been inspired by you and can see the end result).
And programming is at the CORE of computer science. It's the theory of computer science, laid bare. It doesn't have to be advanced, but it has to BE, in the same that you can't just skip algebra - sure, most kids will never use it but kids minds are plastic for a reason. Stretch them with something they don't quite understand when they are young, and it becomes SO MUCH more pliant that they are able to learn so much more, and quicker, and learn things they have no particular interest in to get to their goal.
In the 70's and beyond you WERE taught BASIC. It was designed for just that purpose. And with that same skill you can still write phone apps and all sorts nowadays. Without it, you can't. You're fucked. Unless you want to change the graphics in a template and nothing else.
If you don't teach everything, the kids won't know what they can do, they won't realise what they are good at, they won't learn to do things to get where they want and they won't have the skills even if they are top-end when they get there (e.g. you can't be a mathematician without learning algebra and I assure you it's easier to learn it when you're a kid).
Nobody is saying that every kid will churn our a million lines of C. That's fucking insanity. We're saying programming is a core skill of computer science that MY generation were taught from the ages of 8/9 and is still relevant. As such, it NEEDS to be taught. Or you're not teaching computer science.
The essence of the problem is exactly that, however. We're not teaching computer science. We're teaching "computing". How to use a computer. Not design it, build it, diagnose it, etc. We're teaching how to drive, not how to engineer a car or how it works. That's a backwards step. And as computers get more powerful, it's more and more akin to teaching how to drive an automatic with lane-veering warnings and reverse-parking sensors. It's getting dumber and dumber and dumber and all the teachers only ever drove automatics themselves, by now.
Being "good with" using computers is mistaken for being a computer expert. This is a dangerous, stupid, mistake to make. It's like saying that any HGV driver is a good expert witness for explaining to a court why the brakes failed on a jumbo jet in a major accident.
No, you're a bad person because of your hateful, racist and factually incorrect views.
Even the darkies don't want to live with darkies, which is why they're all trying to get to Europe.
One, I don't think there's a hard distinction between teachers and tutors.
Two, even if there was you'd be struggling due to a shortage of good tutors.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
He's not providing any links and neither are you. Both statements are invalid.
Modern Algebra and abstract Algebra is not taught in schools. At all. Neither is set theory. All you get is the dumbed-down counting an accountant may need. Ever wonder why? Oh, wait, you do not know what Modern Algebra and Abstract Algebra is?
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Degree in mathematics.
The algebras you mentioned (of which one is subset of the other - do YOU know what they are?) require a grounding in algebra. In the UK, "school" means up to age 16 (now up to 18, but whatever). You can't teach that kind of stuff without basic algebra, which pushes it into A-Level (which used to be the "optional" 16-18 education). Thus we're not talking about kids who are missing out on advanced algebras - that's for them to do when they've all done the basics and some choose to do more of it.
Go look up GCSE mathematics. There's algebra. Maybe not ALL algebras but some. Now go look up GCSE ICT. There's pathetically little coding. Almost zero. Fuck, a word macro qualifies with some exam boards.
And, modded up... I see the racists are out in force today!
Modern Algebra and abstract Algebra is not taught in schools. At all. Neither is set theory. All you get is the dumbed-down counting an accountant may need. Ever wonder why? Oh, wait, you do not know what Modern Algebra and Abstract Algebra is?
At what age would you like to teach rings and fields? Before or after they have mastered the art of simultaneous equations?
Asia for Asians
Africa for Africans
White countries for everyone, in the name of "diversity"
When I got into computing (in the '80's), the teachers at my school knew as little about it as we did -- we learned together.
Within a couple of years a friend and I implemented a Forth setup as a replacement OS on a machine that was shipped with C/PM (writing the floppy controller in machine code etc.). None of the teachers had a clue what we were doing, but they were quite interested, and very encouraging.
I would suggest that we should not bother with teachers, beyond asking them to occasionally ask the kids what they're doing, and then say how clever that sounds.
This is the Minimally invasive education approach pioneered by Sugata Mitra.
As Aurtur C. Clark said to him: "Any teacher that can be replaced by a computer ... should be!"
There's no point poisoning the minds of the next generation with the befuddled understanding of teachers with little aptitude for the subject.
Debian: GNU/Linux done the Linux way
I think you're generalising based on *your* school.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
My first grade class (age 6) was introduced to naive set theory...part of the "New Math" curriculum, I'm guessing...
This phenomenon is occurring outside of the U.K. as well. You may be blaming the symptom. The problem is that anyone worth their salt can get a much more lucrative job in IT. How do I know this? I train IT instructors for schools.
The pattern is always the same:
1) School needs IT instructor yet nobody applies.
2) School fills position with non-qualified person.
3) I train person.
4) Person earns certifications / programming skills.
5) Person leaves teaching for IT industry.
Not a single student of mine has entered the teaching profession to my knowledge, and I would not recommend the profession as it is often blamed for societies woes. Check with the colleges. Students are not enrolling to become teachers.
So why do I stay? I am at the top of the teaching pay scale with full benefits. Also, if I leave retirement is lost. Finally, my employer lets me work on the side and in the summer.
So to answer the question, "Why aren't there more qualified IT instructors?" The good ones quit.
I'm 12 years old and am an avid programmer. Not ever have I had a teacher that taught me something I didn't know. And we're probably forgetting here that half the teachers at least will be highly inept. Also, you should note that the curriculum doesn't advance past Scratch ( a drag and drop sprite based language) which only teaches the basic concepts. In IT classes nobody even vaugly understands programming and walks out of that room with no further knowledge. My point is that the teacher won't be able to teach it and the students won't be able to understand it.
Languages evolve, you prescriptivist bully-boy!
"it's clearly not filtering down to every school, and that harms the children"
What kind of arrogant ass claims that not turning children into code-monkeys will harm them?
For that matter, where is the evidence that this kind of curriculum leads to more people deciding to become programmers? Back in the day, lots of kids went to wood shop classes. I don't remember there being a glut of carpenters as a result.
*Teachers* don't like these initiatives
At my kids' school, the teachers love them. The programming class (using Scratch) is taught by the school "computer guy", so it is an hour of downtime for the classroom teachers, to do prep work, or whatever. The kids also love these classes. They can learn to program cool art, or shoot-em-up games, etc.
It seems entirely arbitrary to require a degree - any degree - to teach. I wonder if that puts anyone else off? Personally, I think 20+ years work experience trumps a 3-year degree.
Now, gimme your lunch money and no more words need to be hurt.
Makes comment about grammar. Types 'odd' instead of 'of.' Sounds legit.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Your degree cannot be worth much. And no, that "grounding" in Algebra is only necessary for applications, otherwise it is completely optional. In fact, most students seem to be struggling when they run into the first group where things work differently than in N. As to abstract algebra, if you build that cleanly, nothing besides set theory and logic is required. Algebra and Modern Algebra may come in as suppliers of examples, but that is it.
What you learn in school is _accounting_, i.e. the kind of very basic mathematics a merchant may need.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Oooooh, an Ad Hominem! The last argument of utter incompetence.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I had that too, some 40 years ago. Came in very handy when I went to university (gave me a head-start in both propositional logic and elementary set theory), never really needed it before that in school. They stopped it a few years later, because it was "too difficult".
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
For the past few years I have taught Subject Knowledge Enhancement classes for a UK university.
The students I had were all graduates with computing degrees of one sort or another, and each were studying for a PGCE specialising in 'computer science'.
I was reluctant to take this on initially – I mean, what on earth could I teach computing graduates that would be appropriate for school audiences? However, as it turned out, nearly everyone of these computing graduates – even the mature ones who had spent years in the IT industry – knew very little about programming fundamentals; programming languages; simple algorithms; and more or less about any contemporary subject or technology in general computing! That also went for the ones that were recent graduates!
I came away with two thoughts. #1 if these students were struggling, and or badly informed, what would an already in-post teacher, who had been simply been told that they were to teach the new syllabus make of it? And #2 what the heck is being taught at some of our universities in these computing degrees!
What you learn in school is _accounting_, i.e. the kind of very basic mathematics a merchant may need.
And similarly, you only learn basic French, German, History, Geography, English Literature, Physics, Chemistry and Biology.
Amazingly enough, you can't fit in eight full PhDs worth of learning by the time you're 16.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it