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Microsoft Backports Start Menu To Windows RT

jones_supa writes: Windows RT devices, such as the Surface RT and the Surface 2, won't get an upgrade to Windows 10, but instead Microsoft has been working on a platform update that brings the original Start Menu which the company introduced in the first Windows 10 builds. This means that it is technologically based on DirectUI, instead of an XAML-based menu which shipped with the RTM PC version of Windows 10. Aside from the Start Menu, the update is expected to include some minor tweaks and performance improvements as well.

39 comments

  1. Why even bother Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The RT Windows was dreadfully inadequate for Windows users that have always been able to run any Windows software on it. I am not even sure why Microsoft is even bothering upgrading the RT platform? The only software that runs is Office and then you rely on apps? Will it even support universal apps well?
    This reminds me of what Microsoft did with some 7.5 Windows phones. Instead of giving them 8.0 OS they did 7.8 a minor refresh that did nothing. I had a Surface RT a while back it sat idle for months never even being turned on to update. I finally unloaded it on a trade to get a few bucks. Its a disaster and Microsoft should just retire it and put it out of its misery.

    1. Re:Why even bother Microsoft? by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

      It's for embedded use. Sometimes having a longer lifetime than many other usages.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:Why even bother Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092158

      RT Jailbreak Tool
      By Netham45, Version 1.20
      An all-in-one program to jailbreak Windows RT tablets using the method recently released by clrokr

      FAQ
      Q) What does this do, in layman's terms?
      A) It allows non-Microsoft ARM-compiled .exes to run on the desktop. That is it.
      Update (03/01/2013): The jailbreak now allows unsigned drivers to load.

      Q) Can I use this to run Photoshop, Steam, AutoCAD, ?
      A) While it is -technically- possible for the companies to port their stuff over to Windows RT using the hack it is extremely unlikely. As a rule of thumb, if it's a commercial piece of software it won't run on the ARM.

      Q) Can I use this to run PuTTY, VNC, X-Chat, ?
      A) Yes! Open-source programs are ones that you, having the source code, can recompile to work on the ARM. If it's not already available (A small but growing number of programs are) it's easy to get started. There are some useful threads in the Windows 8 Development and Hacking board on XDA-Developers.
      Please note that not all programs can reasonably be ported over to ARM, due to either program complexity, overuse of inline assembly, or the current lack of a GNU Compiler

    3. Re:Why even bother Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what's the point of a start menu then? Surely that's something embedded users could care less about.

    4. Re:Why even bother Microsoft? by lokedhs · · Score: 1

      If they could care less about it, then it's at least more important than some other things.

  2. Too late by Nona+Slashdottir · · Score: 0

    Nice as the Surfaces may be, I won't touch any Microsoft products for the next few years. Wiped Skype from my Linux and mobile devices too. Trust comes on foot and leaves on horseback, Microsoft.

    1. Re:Too late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your comment reminds me of some deeply insightful words of poetry:

      You tell me that you're sorry
      Didn't think I'd turn around and say,
      That it's too late to apologize
      It's too late
      I said it's too late to apologize
      It's too late
      Too late, ohhhh ohhhhh!

    2. Re:Too late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Couldn't agree more.

      I'll wait till hackers and coders have ripped it apart to find out what other dodgy shit it does behind peoples backs, and patched it out.

      Until then, I will stick with an even more locked down Windows 7 in a VM with VGA Passthrough, sans updates since Microsoft decided to shit on everyones connection by forcing Win10 on people without telling them.
      "Oh, you can just delete it". Say that to the millions on bandwidth limited connections, dicks. I seriously hope they do get together and sue them, that is absolute bullshit.

      I don't like it when software does things behind my back. I don't like it when things use resources constantly without telling me. I don't want things thrashing my drives and saturating the bus, or my internet connection either!
      I couldn't give less of a shit about the spying crap, but the fact that things can't be disabled on some versions pisses me off immensely. Especially when it comes to updates, updates which Microsoft have a habit of rushing out and KILLING peoples machines some times, or preventing boot, or preventing Windows starting up, or breaking logins, or the many other things they have done over the years.

      They'd have to pay ME to use Win10 as it is now.

    3. Re:Too late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had MS computers since win95. The shit MS is pulling now with 10 ensures that I'll be installing linux on my laptop. Getting too old to put up with this MS horseshit they're pushing. I thank God that my living does not require having to do with computing.

  3. Welcome to the MS botnet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Ah Microsoft... Controllers of the biggest active botnet on the planet. Capturing your keystrokes, mouse movements, online activity and file content from your local devices 24/7.

    All to give you a "better user experience".

    1. Re:Welcome to the MS botnet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ah Microsoft... Controllers of the biggest active botnet on the planet. Capturing your keystrokes, mouse movements, online activity and file content from your local devices 24/7.

      All to give you a "better user experience".

      How does that differ from Google?

      Well, other than Google's product being YOUR privacy...

    2. Re:Welcome to the MS botnet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because you can opt out and still use Google search products (just browse without being logged in). With Microsoft it's all or nothing for Windows 7, 8 and 10. Either accept the spyware 100% or don't use the products at all.

      Plus, Google has much more to lose since 90%+ of their revenue is based on advertising so trust is extremely important to them. Microsoft doesn't have to give a shit about any privacy. Their primary motivation is keeping their market share numbers high to maintain lock-in. Privacy is not on their radar at all.

  4. won't be the only 'features' to be backported.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    all those spying / telemetry updates will make it to rt, too, and won't be properly described there either. hey microsoft: 'fixes issues in windows' is NOT what the telemetry updates, or gwx nagware for 7/8 for that matter, does. those updates cause MORE problems and fixes *none*.

  5. Good but... by squiggleslash · · Score: 2

    The real question is would they make this available to regular 8.1 users who aren't entirely comfortable about jumping to Windows 10 right now?

    Windows RT was only available for tablets, and (hacks combined with custom compiled executables aside - there really aren't many ARM Windows executables) only capable of running Microsoft Office on the "desktop" side. So this new Start button is of questionable usefulness, it's something the vast majority of RT users will never see.

    Regular X86/X86-64 Windows 8.1, on the other hand, would greatly benefit from a Start button.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    1. Re:Good but... by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you want a Start button in Windows 8.1, install Classic Shell.

      Do some googling, and figure out how you too can make Windows 8.1 look pretty much like previous versions of Windows. It's not that tough, but it makes it infinitely better.

      On my desktop, I've disabled their store, their apps, the idiotic Metro screens, and what I see is a classic looking Windows desktop with a Start menu. Not a single bit of the crap Microsoft believes is the future. Because I want a damned desktop for working on, not some damned romper room thing which thinks the world is now a tablet.

      The problem is that Microsoft doesn't seem willing to acknowledge your right to say "I don't want your Windows 10 crap", and are making it damned near impossible to identify which updates are the crap adding telemetry and other shit intended to force Windows 10 on you.

      So much of their updates are sneaking in telemetry, user experience tracking, and other shit entirely designed to benefit Microsoft .. it actually takes a lot of effort to keep that shit away or have any trust that Microsoft isn't installing stuff you don't want, or a ticking time bomb which is going to give you Windows 10 no matter what you think.

      Disabling Windows updates entirely might be something I have to start considering.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Good but... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      The real question is would they make this available to regular 8.1 users who aren't entirely comfortable about jumping to Windows 10 right now?

      That IS Windows 10. Unless you're talking about the Metro side of the Windows 8.1 interface. Only reason not to upgrade is in case some apps that worked under 7 or 8.1 misbehave under Windows 10

      Windows RT was only available for tablets, and (hacks combined with custom compiled executables aside - there really aren't many ARM Windows executables) only capable of running Microsoft Office on the "desktop" side. So this new Start button is of questionable usefulness, it's something the vast majority of RT users will never see.

      Regular X86/X86-64 Windows 8.1, on the other hand, would greatly benefit from a Start button.

      Windows RT being a fiasco could have been predicted from the fate of Windows on better platforms such as MIPS and Alpha. Not that Microsoft seems to have learned anything - they now want to migrate this disaster to the R-Pi. Instead, Microsoft should focus on migrating all the Windows Phones to Windows 10 Mobile.

    3. Re:Good but... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Only reason not to upgrade is in case some apps that worked under 7 or 8.1 misbehave under Windows 10

      Horseshit.

      Among the many reasons to not upgrade:

      1) Tracking and analytics embedded in Windows 10
      2) Microsoft removing choices about when/if you apply updates and moving to a model of them doing anything they choose
      3) No interest in an OS which thinks the world is a tablet
      4) No interest in Microsoft's new app ecosystem
      5) Don't wish to be part of what is essentially a public beta they want to force everybody into running
      6) Want to control what you do with your own computer
      7) Don't want all of the privacy-wrecking bullshit Microsoft is trying to implement (like sharing wifi passwords)

      Everything Microsoft is doing with this rollout smacks of doing it do users instead of for users.

      When Microsoft starts concealing that they're sneaking in things like telemetry to track how well the upgrade is going, have decided users don't get a vote in how updates are applied, and are generally acting like it's their computer ... there is no damned reason to upgrade if Microsoft is going to act like "we're upgrading this whether you like it or not", because it says the long-term plan is to wrest even more control of both your computer and privacy.

      Fuck that. There is as yet a defensible reason why I'd upgrade to Windows 10. It sure isn't there to benefit me. And I sure as hell don't trust them or how they're doing this.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:Good but... by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      So much of their updates are sneaking in telemetry, user experience tracking, and other shit entirely designed to benefit Microsoft

      I can imagine lots of ways that telemetry will help Microsoft -- by helping them understand their users better, and direct their efforts to better help users.

      Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft. Not on Windows10 - instead I'm on the C#/VB language design team. I look at telemetry every day. We put in an easy-to-use "send-a-smile/frown" button in the menubar of Visual Studio so it's easier for people to send feedback. We put a lot of effort into making that send-a-frown feature able to diagnose hung processes or crash-dumps so it could give us more actionable bug reports with minimal end-user effort. I spend a lot of time working with end-users -- listening to them at conferences, in studies, in forums, in all kinds of ways, to get anecdotes. I collate those anecdotes with telemetry data to see whether they're representative, and to guide us on where to seek out additional anecdotes to flesh out intriguing telemetry data. We don't currently gather telemetry from developers on how they're using new experimental language features in C#/VB, but I've often wanted that so we can see how those proposed language features are working out in practice (because once you add a language feature it's nigh-on impossible to remove it). I use telemetry every single week to make a product that's better for end-users.

    5. Re:Good but... by iampiti · · Score: 1

      The problem I see with continuing to use Windows is not the annoyances you might have to turn off or live with in the short term. The problem is the change of physolophy at Microsoft: Windows used to be an OS which stayed out of the way, did what the user requested and whatever things did wrong was by mistake. Now it's a tool to make Microsoft richer: It endlessdly pushes their services to you (Microsoft login, Cortana, Bing, Windows Store, OneDrive), it sends data to Microsoft behind your back, it even shows publicity of Office, it downloads Windows 10 without asking first, ...
      They seem to think your computer is theirs to exploit and profit from and thus it doesn't matter how relatively harmless it might seem right now because, with the precedents given, it looks likely to become much worse in the future.

    6. Re:Good but... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      You know what, if Microsoft wants telemetry ... make it fucking well opt in.

      It is none of your business how we use our computer son a day to basis. Adding telemetry to our computers without asking and enabling it by default screams tha Microsoft is still managed by a bunch of self entitled assholes who think they can do anything they want to.

      I don't give a rats ass how much you'd like telemetry ... the only fucking telemetry Microsoft can have from me is "fuck the hell off, and stop acting like my data is your property, and stop assuming that I have any interest in sending this shit to you"

      Telemetry which isn't explicitly chosen by the user is completely indistinguishable from malware. Not chosen by default, not turned on without you looking, not installed without telling you ... explicitly "boy, I'd love to install the pieces for that Customer Experience Improvement Program" which seems to run even if you've opted out of it.

      Maybe if Microsoft would stop fucking writing software which assumes they're entitled to this stuff and then making the user have to find it and disable it, people would be so damned pissed off.

      Telemetry without my explicit consent and conscious decision to provide it to you is pretty much malware, and is a strategy chosen by assholes.

      Our data doesn't exist to make you clowns be able to forcibly take data we haven't been told you're collecting.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    7. Re:Good but... by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 aren't remotely similar, no. There are drastic UI and functionality changes, and on the hardware I've tried 10 on, it's significantly more resource intensive.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    8. Re:Good but... by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      Telemetry which isn't explicitly chosen by the user is completely indistinguishable from malware.

      So back to my question: how do you think telemetry helps Microsoft other than by helping it help end-users better?

      Maybe you didn't answer because, as per your quote above, you think it's irrelevant. Partly I agree with you, and I never like data taken without my explicit consent. On the other hand if you only get telemetry through opt-in then you're dooming yourself to unrepresentative data.

    9. Re:Good but... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      I was talking about Windows 8.x, not Windows 7. As far as Windows 8.x goes, there are very good reasons to upgrade. Your reason #3 was somewhat truer about Windows 8.x (and that too not fully, since all apps forcibly went to the desktop even if they were Metro apps). Reason #4 was there in both 8.x and 10 - if you want to be in a 7 compatible world, 10 is better.

      Other than that, one can run Linux or PC-BSD on one's computer, or get a Mac.

    10. Re:Good but... by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      The real question is would they make this available to regular 8.1 users who aren't entirely comfortable about jumping to Windows 10 right now?

      Doubt it. Since they essentially abandoned RT users (no Windows 10), they are giving all 3 of them this as a consolation prize. If you haven't noticed by the update icon / nags, they really want Windows 7/8.1 users to upgrade to 10 so they can say "look at how many users are running 10! Fastest adopted OS in history!"

      Classic shell can give Windows 8.1 a usable start menu.

    11. Re:Good but... by yuhong · · Score: 1

      I think this was the start menu update originally planned for Win8.1 in the first place.

    12. Re:Good but... by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Why not just an option to opt out?

  6. At least they're trying. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    At least Microsoft is trying, however minimally, to improve the user experience. I hate to admit it, but that's more than can be said for open source projects like Firefox and GNOME 3, which also trashed their UIs during the same era, yet haven't made any substantial effort to fix them. Firefox is still sporting the half-assed Chrome-imitating Australis look and feel, which is far inferior to what Firefox used before then, which itself was far inferior to the earlier Firefox 3.6 look. GNOME 3 is still a half-assed imitation of OS X, but it doesn't even do that well. I could forgive them if we saw even some sort of a minor improvement, but we just haven't seen even that from them. Microsoft has at least done something.

  7. Windows for the IBM PC RT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft is a tad late with their Windows version for the IBM 6150 RT...

  8. Start Menu is horribly broken by BenJeremy · · Score: 1

    The current Start Menu is horribly broken. Microsoft has known this for months, but has failed to produce a fix.

    Currently, it is limited to 512 items. This also breaks Cortana's search for items in the menu.

    Of course, that is separate from another issue with the Start Menu: The inexplicable "flattening" of the program files structure to a single folder level, which maddeningly produces menu folders with countless "Uninstall" and "Help" links in some cases. That was, apparently, a "design decision" by some idiot at Microsoft when they moved to the Metro UI in Windows 8, and hasn't been corrected back to the more realistic and productive way it originally worked (since Windows 95, no less)

    1. Re:Start Menu is horribly broken by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      This is presumably intentional, so 'Telemetry' will show that hardly anyone uses the Start Menu, and now they can remove it. Again.

      The real question is: who, within Microsoft, hates the Start Menu so much, and why?

    2. Re:Start Menu is horribly broken by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I was about to ask what the fuck you were doing with 512 apps in your start menu but then I used the powershell trick to identify how many I had. Close to 200 and I have a very minimal windows install.

    3. Re:Start Menu is horribly broken by BenJeremy · · Score: 1

      VisualStudio 2015 alone is worth 32 items in your install. MS Office 2013 is another 20+ items.

      I'd bet the average developer has over 1500 items, and any gamer will also have over 1000, easily.

      The only people likely to have under 512 items will be the most casual users, people who only browse the web and read their e-mails. Microsoft screwed the pooch on this. The fix is taking a while because they baked in the arbitrary 512 item limit into the search index database file that is created. I'm guessing the number of entries in the database file is fixed for every place that uses the database fie - i.e. if it goes over, things break badly. The developers who coded that need to be taken out back and put out of everybody's misery.

      Full disclosure: Back in '97 I wrote my own ini file handler after discovering Microsoft had put an arbitrary limit of 64k on the size of the file, and it read our 3MB files (not my fault) without complaining, just truncating everything over that 65535th character. I did that in one afternoon. I guess Microsoft is still using developers who can't dynamically allocate space for data.

  9. Free spying? by HideyoshiJP · · Score: 1

    I sure hope I get the spying features for free, too. Just kidding, I probably already have them. It's a good thing my Windows RT device is only used in the kitchen for recipes and streaming media.

  10. when did start menu become the "OS" ? by 4wdloop · · Score: 2

    It's (sadly) funny that the OS feature most taunted in second decade of 21th century is...GUI widget, even if it's an "app launcher" (gui shell, aka. desktop). Notably, "launchers" can be changed in android without sweat. Why not in Windows?

    --
    4wdloop
    1. Re:when did start menu become the "OS" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is the Start Menu confused with the OS? Because Windows very intentionally made that widget the absolute centerpiece of their OS over 20 years ago (20 years and about 2 weeks to be specific.) And they celebrated it with great fanfare in Windows 95 (Start Me Up by the Rolling Stones was the fanfare they licensed, specifically.) And until they cut out the concept in Windows 8 and pissed all over it in Windows 8.1 and 10, it was the most visible and useful element of the Windows platform, all of their overeducated and hyperfunded studies being in error.

      And, you asked why it can't be changed easily in Windows? Because Microsoft needs to continue to make their billions, and couldn't find any meaningful improvements to Windows 7 that actually improved the user experience for the desktop customer without trashing that concept. Because they feel it essential that you have the same user experience no matter what device you're using or what you're using it for, despite the survival of desktops and laptops because for some things you can't use a tablet or its' interface effectively. Because. They. Fucked. Up. (and won't admit it even now.)

      In fact, thanks to a couple of third party makers who made it look easy to restore the functionality, they reveal the Microsoft lie. And hopefully it won't be enough to save them, as I am now utterly convinced that any system I use for home use in the future will be dual-boot and Windows now gets relegated to only that which I must have Windows programs for.

      OK, enough rant. Thanks for readinjg.

  11. what?! by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    But they determined via customer mouse tracking and research interviews with morons that "nobody" uses the start menu. So why include is in 8 now? OH WAIT does that mean they're finally admitting that they're wrong and hopefully firing their entire research and development department? I doubt it, considering Bing is now hard wired into my Win10 start menu.

  12. Does it result in a 'home' icon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I saw a home icon on one of our Windows 8 machines this morning and I went ahead and dismissed it because we already spent the money on Start8.

    Hey, Microsoft, since you fucked up thinking we didn't need a Start Menu, why did you compound the fuckup by trying backdoor installs to fix it when I'VE ALREADY WORKED AROUND YOU AND DON'T WANT YOUR SOLUTIONS AFTER I'VE ALREADY WORKED AROUND YOU BECAUSE THAT ONLY CONFUSES THE SHIT OUT OF THE USERS I HAVE TO SUPPORT.

    BTW, Your Windows 10 Menu Starty Menu Sucks Balls as well because our company might want our employees to work and not be distracted by all your social bullshit.

  13. Microsoft has been working on the Start Menu .. by nickweller · · Score: 1

    "Microsoft has been working on a platform update that brings the original Start Menu"

    Don't mean a thing to me as I am on Lubuntu, been Microsoft free for years, at least at home ...