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UK Researcher Applies For Permission To Edit Embryo Genomes

sciencehabit writes with the news that developmental biologist Kathy Niakan, of the Francis Crick Institute in London, has applied for permission from the UK's Human Fertilization and Embryology Authority to edit the genes of human embryos. Niakan, says the article, "investigates the genes that are active at the earliest stages of human development, before it implants in the womb. Work with embryonic stem cells from mice and humans has suggested that some of the key genes active in this preimplantation period are different in humans and in mice. Niakan hopes to use genome editing to tweak some of the key genes thought to be involved and study the effects they have on human development." If approved, Niakan's work would only involve embryos in a lab, not implanted for gestation.

62 comments

  1. Of course the Republicans will fight this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They hate science.

    1. Re: Of course the Republicans will fight this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. It's progress that they hate. You should never vote for them because they hate progress.

    2. Re: Of course the Republicans will fight this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't understand the word genome so they hate it as their xian religion demands.

    3. Re:Of course the Republicans will fight this by devnulljapan · · Score: 2

      Republicans don't have as much sway in the UK as you seem to think.

    4. Re:Of course the Republicans will fight this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Republicans don't have as much sway in the UK as you seem to think.

      The Monarchists, however...

    5. Re: Of course the Republicans will fight this by x0ra · · Score: 2

      it's not "progress" altogether they hate, it's the science close to the "sacred nature" of humans.

    6. Re: Of course the Republicans will fight this by x0ra · · Score: 2

      they very well understand the word "genome" when talking about GMO...

    7. Re: Of course the Republicans will fight this by roca · · Score: 1

      I think you're getting your bogeymen confused. GMO opponents tend to be the bogeypeople on the left.

    8. Re: Of course the Republicans will fight this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If by Republicans you mean the US GOP, then luckily they don't hold any sway in the UK. If you mean the IRA, then I don't know what to say to that.

    9. Re:Of course the Republicans will fight this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is in the UK not the US

    10. Re:Of course the Republicans will fight this by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      It's more that they want to uphold the monopoly on human genome manipulation that their imaginary buddy has.

      Yes, that's wrong on many levels.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re: Of course the Republicans will fight this by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The same sacred nature they can't give two shits about if there's oil to be frack'd?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re: Of course the Republicans will fight this by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The same sacred nature they can't give two shits about if there's oil to be frack'd?

      It is important to remember that the Christian faith grants its adherents dominion over all things not explicitly reserved for God. That, no doubt, is part of its popularity. It's nice to feel in control of things. Sadly, it also grants carte blanche over all the earth.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Of course the Republicans will fight this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really, the last time I checked there weren't any Republicans in the UK.

    14. Re: Of course the Republicans will fight this by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      GMO scaremongers are on the left. Embryo fetishists are on the right. This is a rare situation in which they have some common ground.

    15. Re:Of course the Republicans will fight this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really, the last time I checked there weren't any Republicans in the UK.

      Check again.

    16. Re:Of course the Republicans will fight this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It you don't see the obvious ethical concerns in manipulating human genetics you are no person to make a call about what is right or wrong on any level.

    17. Re:Of course the Republicans will fight this by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I do actually have moral objections against manipulating human genome. But I dare say it's probably for other reasons than religious. Actually, I object on grounds of a sociological concern.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  2. Are they going to call the first one Dolly too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a stickler for continuity.

  3. Does it really matter... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    > Niakan's work would only involve embryos in a lab, not implanted for gestation

    Why would I care?

    1. Re:Does it really matter... by Dominare · · Score: 2

      Well, because the latter may result in the world's first genetically modified human baby. If you don't understand why that's a big deal, go take a look at all the fuss they make about GM food and then imagine it amplified by an order of magnitude.

    2. Re:Does it really matter... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because these silly people with "morals" and "ethics" don't want a bunch of super children to be born, and begin the Eugenics Wars.

    3. Re:Does it really matter... by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      Because these silly people with "morals" and "ethics" don't want a bunch of super children to be born, and begin the Eugenics Wars.

      With our current knowledge, a first attempt is just as likely (if not more likely) to end up with a sub-human baby, or even worse, a half-human baby. I'm strangely ok with super babies but what do you do with something sub-human or half-human. We have some experience dealing with humans with the intelligence of a mouse and the body of a human but even then a parent-less lab-grown child who needs constant care in a mentally handicapped facility their entire life is not a desired outcome. The other side where it's a mouse with human intelligence would be even more problematic. What do you do with it? Do you let it go to school and have rights? Do you let it reproduce and have more super-mice children therefore creating a second intelligence race on this planet?

    4. Re:Does it really matter... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I don't like GM food, but I don't mind GM babies.

      I don't have to eat the latter...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Does it really matter... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Careful there. I don't really think that's what we'd really want. Do you want your child to only have a chance in life if you can afford tweaking its genes before birth so they're intelligent enough?

      Unless you manage to avoid such a divide, you could easily end up with a caste system where your "worth" in life depends on how much money your parents had to spend on your creation.

      Think like now, just with ivy league being replaced by actually real "better people".

      And yes, that's not going to be the result of this research. Give it a decade or two.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Does it really matter... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I don't have to eat the latter...

      I insist on labeling of any GMO babies found on supermarket shelves!

      I am so incredibly for genetic modification of humans it's not even funny. I'm not even against GM food, I just want labeling, and multi-generational trials in sealed conditions before things are allowed out.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Does it really matter... by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      Unless you manage to avoid such a divide, you could easily end up with a caste system where your "worth" in life depends on how much money your parents had to spend on your creation.

      Hence the importance of universal health care. We all should be getting the same health care, as far as it is feasible for that to happen. The results will be good for everyone. On the other hand, we might well in that case have to deny such services to everyone, because population.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Does it really matter... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Do you want your child to only have a chance in life if you can afford tweaking its genes before birth so they're intelligent enough?

      This is just scaremongering. There is no reason to believe that gene editing will be particularly expensive. It is even likely to be publicly funded, if the savings in eliminating genetic disorders is shown to far outweigh the cost.

      Even today, you can boost your child's chance of success with folic acid supplements early in pregnancy. Yet most people don't do it, and that has nothing to do with affordability. The cost of the supplements is only a few cents.

    9. Re:Does it really matter... by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      Unless you manage to avoid such a divide, you could easily end up with a caste system where your "worth" in life depends on how much money your parents had to spend on your creation.

      Hence the importance of universal health care. We all should be getting the same health care, as far as it is feasible for that to happen. The results will be good for everyone. On the other hand, we might well in that case have to deny such services to everyone, because population.

      Universal health care won't solve this problem. Yeah, it might make give everyone in a rich first world super human abilities but what about all
      the countries that can't afford any of the first world technologies. There are many places where dialysis, or even simple things like antibiotics or
      malaria pills are cost prohibitive. Now if this "superhuman" technology was super cheap and used to help get the third world out of poverty by making
      them all geniuses able to better solve their own problems then it *might* help but chances are it will primarily only be available to the people who
      are already at an advantage.

    10. Re: Does it really matter... by Hussman32 · · Score: 1

      You should consider the downstream effects of a technology that can propagate uncontrollably after implementation. Especially when we know nothing about it.

      --
      "Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
    11. Re:Does it really matter... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Well, because the latter may result in the world's first genetically modified human baby. If you don't understand why that's a big deal,

      You think this hasn't been done already? That's naive. But let's play idiot and pretend it hasn't by multiple western countries (I have no reason to think China hasn't tried), so what? The act itself isn't even a matter of "how", but when. So eventually someone does (think years ago). It's STILL not a big deal because there aren't any useful results or maybe there are...again, you fail to answer the question, why is this a big deal that it's being done by a research group in utero or not?

    12. Re:Does it really matter... by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      a report by scientists from Sun Yat-sen University in Guangzhou, China, who have edited a gene in fertilized human eggs, called zygotes. The team used new gene editing technology known as the CRISPR/Cas9 system. That technology can precisely snip out a disease-causing mutation and replace it with healthy DNA. CRISPR/Cas9 has edited DNA in stem cells and cancer cells in humans.

      This is a just one REPORTED case. I don't think you are keeping up.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
  4. Nothing new? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I get it, gotta stay in the news even when you aren't accomplishing anything.

  5. If I'd meant you to tinker... by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

    If I'd meant you to tinker I'd have released you under the BSD license.
    --
    Yours,
        God.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:If I'd meant you to tinker... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      If you don't want me to hack your code, you can always go and sue me.

      Hint: You have to be real to sue in a court. Even in the US.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:If I'd meant you to tinker... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Even if you accepted God as real, and the genome as copyrighted, even under the Mouse's copyright regime that copyright is expired, as would be any patents. He hasn't even been renewing his trademarks on Man(tm). If God did exist, and ever had a copyright, our genes would now be in the public domain.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:If I'd meant you to tinker... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Too bad. I'd really have loved to see that lawsuit go along.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:If I'd meant you to tinker... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Not true.

      The fixed-duration copyright term is for works-for-hire - that means works created by a corporation, including the famous mouse. But a work of an individual author is protected for a different term - the life of the author, plus another seventy years, under US law and in most other countries. Until God dies, the copyright holds. At which point Jesus inherits as next-of-kin and holds it for another seventy years.

    5. Re:If I'd meant you to tinker... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      But what happens when Jesus dies? Bear in mind that he's done it before, though only temporarily. What then? Wait a year and a day, just in case he comes round?

      It's utterly ridiculous that the law isn't 100% straight on these things, and this, along with rock and roll, is why the Chinese are eating our lunch.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:If I'd meant you to tinker... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Term of copyright is life of the author plus mouse's bought and payed for number of years, so...yeah, copyright is good if God shows up and decides to assert it. I'd expect he could make a very compelling argument in court given his extensive legal knowledge.

    7. Re:If I'd meant you to tinker... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Until God dies, the copyright holds.

      I'm inclined to agree with Nietzche and Trent Reznor here. And Jesus already died...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  6. Why not? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

    Human embryos are not magic. You can learn a lot from fiddling with them that can then be applied to improve the lives of people.

  7. Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why is it that people think having a set of ethical guidelines that establishes an understanding that humans have a value, simply because they are human, met with the opposition that a person holding such a set of guidelines is 'anti-science'?

    By the logic presented, most 'Pro-science' must believe that we should be able to pick up the homeless and experiment on them, like Mengle, without complaint.

    Just because a human is very young, does not mean they should be considered disposable.

    1. Re:Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      As soon as we're talking about humans, you have a case.

      For your information, quite a number of fertilized eggs don't make it into the placenta. They just get flushed out.

      By your definition, most women are serial killers.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 0

      Did you get this idiotic idea all on your own, or did someone pour stupidity into your ears?

      You guys have the most convoluted reasoning to support the killing of individual organisms that are indisputably of the species homo sapiens.

      And for the record, I am not opposed to abortion. I'm opposed to the death cult that the pro-abortion camp has become.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    3. Re: Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It does not follow. congratulations you have just presented a classic example of A non sequitur. No, it does not make someone a serial killer to allow someone to die, killing someone requires an active participation at the primary or secondary level to have it related. In order for your logic to stand, we would need to prosecute every person at a needle factory when a junkie overdoses.

      On the other hand, the op is correct, you may argue that a fertilized egg is not a person, but you cannot argue it is not a human. While not all fertilized eggs are humans, all the ones that result from the Union of a human sperm and a human egg are. If you believe otherwise you fail biology 101.

    4. Re:Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Did you get this idiotic idea all on your own, or did someone pour stupidity into your ears?

      Since I can only assume you don't understand how human reproduction works, I have to ask you the same question.

    5. Re:Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Eggs do not make it into the placenta at all.

      A part of them *becomes* the placenta.

      The placenta is genetically part of the offspring. It's a sort of demarcation point - it lets the mother and fetus exchange material without incurring the wrath or the immune system.

    6. Re:Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Skin cells are also indisputably homo sapien. By this definition, anyone who gets a scratch has killed, or anyone who kills cancer has also killed. And what of those who have miscarriages, or who never knew that they were pregnant? I assume they're morally culpable as well, so miscarriages are also murder. Oh, and anyone who has a disability preventing them from carrying a child to term, but has a fertilized egg anyway. Oh, and people who die with blastocysts growing inside of them have also killed, along with anyone who is brain dead, along with the doctors or nurses who don't know someone is pregnant before they administer a contraindicated drug, to them or any other patient.

      Oh, and since the zygote also has less functionality than the cow you ate for dinner tonight, then it must also follow that we meat-eaters are all murderers as well. Along with the countless number of dogs and cats which were bred for our entertainment to begin with. Though, you can't get around the fact that the corn zygote has as much rationality as a human one, so I guess the only way to live is to murder.

      Can we agree at least that there are enough exceptions here to make an argument that it isn't so black-and-white?

      A homo sapien isn't a single cell, by the way, but an entire organism with functioning organ systems and most importantly, sentience, which makes the whole argument for murder to begin with. The "death cult" that you dislike has realized this fact, which isn't an ethics issue, and never was.

    7. Re: Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you actually can argue that they are not humans, they are zygotes. That's why we have two different terms for them.

    8. Re:Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL, the funny thing is that most people DO have a set of morals and ethics,
      just not on this site or many other techy-type ones.

      Here you have people pontificating about the ethics of the death penalty,
      but babies are re-classified as things called fetuses, which makes it so much easier to rationalize away what they are and their right to life.

      Actually, Elton, they are not babies, they ARE fetuses, that's why we have two different terms for them. A baby is a human after, you know, it's been born.

      Somehow, because a woman got hot and bothered, couldn't tell a 'hunk' no, keep her legs closed, get on the pill, or pick up some condoms, a new human is able to be killed out of convenience.

      It takes two to make a child, and so the responsibility is on both parents. It doesn't surprise me that the white man ignores that fact, though.

      A script-kiddie who gets caught and tries the Asssburgers defense is roundly mocked and rightly so, and everyone thinks he deserves his medicine.
      A woman allows herself to get pregnant, and wait, hold the presses, because she might be embarrased or inconveinenced, its perfectly all right to allow Dr. Scissorhands to get all up in her and scrag that little human varmint out of her minge.

      No, this article deals with situations in which Edward Scissorhands wasn't needed, but a pre-planned experiment in which the zygote never had a chance anyway. Though even in those cases, you cannot deny the fact that the organism, whatever you call it, is not sentient, and has no more moral value than a dog, cow, or any other animal. However, because science MIGHT be wrong on that, it has been decided that in no situation is Edward Scissorhands ever needed, he just exists in your mind based on colorized photos from the 60's.

      And though the Assburgers defense, or any other, may not work for any murder, the defense itself underscores the need to study those diseases to PREVENT those situations.

      Somehow, actions have consequences is suspended for women.

      No, somehow, actions have consequences is somehow suspended for men. Women have to carry the baby, have the procedure, then be ridiculed by people like the white man who made that comment, thus proving my point.

      And god damn it, if you don't accept that point of view, then you must be an eval Conservative, who hates wimmin and just wants to oppress them......

      So, let me get this straight, forcing women to go through the dangerous and expensive process of carrying a human that has no more chance at happiness than the dog you drop off at the shelter, is not oppressing them. But sitting in an armchair and demanding that they do differently isn't? What's the definition of oppression, then?

      Of course, 50% of those aborted babies are female. So, in reality, it really women and Democrats (mostly) who are ACTUALLY BEING the most oppressive to women insofar as feelings vs lives lost.

      OK, so I'll tell you what... I take all of it back. Make all abortion illegal. OK, so now we have an exponentially increasing population which includes hundreds of thousands of kids that no one cares about wreaking havoc in their anger. Guess what, you guys who voted for these Rethuglicans get a free baby with every vote, because we won't know what to do with them all. And if you think the magical "responsibility fairy" is going to tap her magic wand and make said parents suddenly reliable, income-earning adults who can actually afford kids and enjoy raising them, you're out of your mind.

      I argue that the person who demands a murderer be born is just as morally culpable for that murderer. So, you, sir, would be a murderer, if this "plain as day" world of yours were to actually become true. There is no way around it; a child born in those circumstances will more likely than not become a violent criminal, and at scale, it's a c

    9. Re: Being anti-embryonic testing != anti-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, you show your ignorance. They are human, the argument pro abortion/pro embryonic testing is that they are not persons.

      To the above poster that claimed "they never had a chance" well I claim you never have a chance at getting a clue. Please report for dissection at the closest suicide booth.

      To the poster who claims skin cells being scratched is killing human beings, first most cells on the outer layer are dead already, second go take a look at the 'ship of Theseus" argument / paradox then ask yourself if there is a difference between killing all of a unit and killing some of a unit. if you do not grasp the difference, please report yourself to the nearest at tourney general of your locality as a mass murderer as the cells you kill off every day are substantial in number. It is not about the number of cells, it is about when a human being becomes valuable enough to deserve protection.

      To the person who made the argument about forcing a woman to carry a child to term then the child being discarded like a dog, yes pregnancy is dangerous, that's why evolution selected it as our means of reproduction, pity it is so dangerous that the species will never succeed. Just because you are scared of being left alone because people realize how little you actually matter, remember some stranger took the time to try and communicate with you and you rejected them saying that they had no value other than what their body parts were worth. Now who has the biggest issue? you or them?

  8. Re:Compare to brain study article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't we recall, and don't the moderators who downrate posts on this line recall, what the horrors of experimentation on non-consenting humans bring?

    A big cry we hear a lot today is "no GMO's!". That's right: lets not produce Genetically Modified Offspring.

  9. Stuart Little by tepples · · Score: 1

    The other side where it's a mouse with human intelligence would be even more problematic. What do you do with it? Do you let it go to school and have rights?

    That depends. I didn't see the second Stuart Little movie. But perhaps Ted 2, Short Circuit 2, and Alvin and the Chipmunks might be helpful.

    1. Re:Stuart Little by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Stuart Little 2 gains points for having a bird as a main character

    2. Re:Stuart Little by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      I think the "Rats of Nihm" is probably more realistic but even that brings up plenty of moral issues and although equal in intelligence they definitely were not equal in societal standing.
      I don't think society is currently ready or capable of recognizing an animal of equal intelligence as an equal.

  10. Lemuel Gulliver has been on both sides by tepples · · Score: 1

    I think the "Rats of Nihm" is probably more realistic

    National Institute of Hental Mealth?

    although equal in intelligence they definitely were not equal in societal standing.

    One option is to let the rodents reproduce and then make the human the outsider. For that see Gulliver's Travels by Swift. The human protagonist shipwrecks on an island populated by roughly 15 cm tall humanoids but comes to appreciate their (quite socialist) culture. But a more direct parallel to the suggested situation might be his interaction with the giants of Brobdingnag. A girl brings him home and carries him around in what amounts to a dollhouse, but he eventually proves himself worthy of an audience with their king.

    I also found the world depicted in the Maze Cycle fascinating. (It consists of Who Moved My Cheese by Johnson, Who Cut the Cheese by Jarlsberg, Who Cut the Cheese by Brown, Who Stole My Cheese by Hochberg, and I Moved Your Cheese by Malhotra.) But are they a sequel to Gulliver's Travels or to Mrs. Brisby and the Rats of NIMH? At this point, I'm guessing both. Imagine a world in which Lilliputians coexist with laboratory mice whose genes have been spliced.

  11. Re: Compare to brain study article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Calculus models the truth, but if human lives are nothing more than some subset of a function, then their lives are predetermined anyway. And we aren't talking fetuses, we're talking blastocysts here.