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Dell, EMC Said To Be In Merger Talks (itworld.com)

itwbennett writes: According to a Wall Street Journal report (paywalled), Dell might buy some or all of storage giant EMC. (The grain of salt here is that the Journal's report cited unnamed sources, and cautioned that the companies might not finalize any agreement.) If the report has it right, though, "a total merger would be one of the biggest deals ever in the technology industry," writes Stephen Lawson for IDG, "with EMC holding a market value of about US$50 billion. It would also bring together two of the most important vendors to enterprise IT departments."

97 comments

  1. Coming soon: Alienware SANs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Oh the humanity!

    1. Re:Coming soon: Alienware SANs by selectspec · · Score: 0

      That would be sweet. Overclocked CPUs, water cooling, neon lights in a storage array with a 3D GUI interface built on the Unity or Unreal platform.

      --

      Someone you trust is one of us.

    2. Re:Coming soon: Alienware SANs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real mind blowing concept. Who ends up buying the merged company? Apple, Google or Microsoft?

    3. Re:Coming soon: Alienware SANs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real mind blowing concept. Who ends up buying the merged company? Apple, Google or Microsoft?

      IBM

    4. Re:Coming soon: Alienware SANs by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      ...Which by 2025 will be able to run Windows 10.

    5. Re:Coming soon: Alienware SANs by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 1

      Technically you can install Windows 10 on Dell's current Compellent SANs. They're just Intel boxes.

      On the flip-side I'd TOTALLY buy an Alienware SAN :D

  2. Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Something else for Dell to foul up.

    1. Re:Oh great by AntEater · · Score: 5, Informative

      I don't know if you're joking, or have only dealt with Dell's consumer level stuff. Their "enterprise" level support is excellent and the products generally perform as advertised, if not better.

      I'm not sure what Dell or EMC would gain out of this merger, if it is even true. Dell already owns Equallogic which covers the low to mid-range of the storage market pretty well in Dell's offerings.

      --
      Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
    2. Re:Oh great by TWX · · Score: 1

      Wasn't Dell manufacturing for EMC, at least at some point? There are a lot of similarities between a lot of EMC hardware and Dell hardware...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re:Oh great by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Their "enterprise" level support is excellent and the products generally perform as advertised, if not better.

      Hmm. We once paid 12 grand for Pentium server that under-performed the 486-based DFI machine it replaced. Turns out they had forgotten to install the L2 cache chips.

      The "upgradeability" of their systems never seemed to pan out. It tended to be based on special form-factor riser cards which rarely, if ever got upgraded models.

      I've got a on server sitting right now that I'd love to re-purpose, but the motherboard isn't standard, so putting in a new motherboard and power supply won't let me keep using the rather nice box with the swing-out service gates.

      In fact, the only "Dell" I have that's not uselessly unique is actually built on an Intel motherboard, was apparently part of a large lot sold to the US Government (and then retired). and has no documentation at all on the Dell website. Not even a "birth certificate".

    4. Re:Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Dell was a EMC reseller for a while. Then they decided to sell Equallogic.

    5. Re:Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Something else for Dell to foul up.

      I understand that you've never ever worked with EMC products. They can't be fouled up since the fouling is complete from the factory.
      Of all the people I have heard say positive things about EMC products exactly ZERO has actually worked with said products.

    6. Re:Oh great by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      EMC also owns other properties, such as RSA. The latter alone could be valuable to Dell. EMC would regain business that Dell used to send them prior to Equallogic.

    7. Re:Oh great by swb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Dell own Equallogic (low-to-mid) and Compellent (mid-to-high).

      They already can't quite figure out how to merge the two systems and have been selling both. The inside story is that EQL will go away, but they never seem to go away and Compellent can't quite come up with a product as simple and cheap as EQL. The SC4020, rather than being an EQL with SAS expansion ends up being burdened by Compellent's over-complicated interface system and fiber-channel focused mindset, in addition to being more expensive than EQL (install by a CML certified technician is required, $$$). EQL setup is trivial, I can get one on line in less than an hour.

      I think there's also an open question about the mid-long range future of Compellent's primary sales pitch, its automatic tiering of data between different disk speeds (like SSD, 15k and 7.2k) when the future of data storage looks increasingly like it will be all flash, at least for most of the market volume.

      What does all that tiering overhead mean in a world dominated by flash? Maybe it makes sense for the absolute largest installs where petabytes are in play, but most of the Compellent installs I've seen have been a shelf of tier 1 and maybe 2 shelves of tier 3. And they're increasingly 10G iSCSI focused, passing on FC.

      I can't figure out how they'd blend in EMC to this mix.

      What they're probably after is controlling interest in VMware. This would give them a complete vertical play for virtualization, being able to supply compute, networking, storage and hypervisor. They would probably also be in a position to further a lot of network and storage virtualization with control over both sides of the equation, hardware an software.

      I do wonder if there's a possible anti-trust question here. I also wonder how Microsoft would feel about it as well.

    8. Re:Oh great by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      And the Compellent line. This all lead to a rather nasty divorce between the two.

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      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    9. Re: Oh great by martin0641 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's almost 2016, I don't think we can link a 486 anecdote to today. Plus, we are talking enterprise here - I don't upgrade systems after purchase, I buy new ones and excess pallets of "old" ones. Dell's UEFI and iDRAC support are quite nice now, if they buy EMC and start baking that into their products then NetApp and others are going to be in deep trouble.

    10. Re:Oh great by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      Their gear has worked quite reliably for us. We had a Symmetrix DMX1000 for about 6 years, and a Centera, and EMC's service was impeccable; while the DMX did suffer from some hardware issues at one point, their FEs busted arse on it, and we never had an actual outage. Managing that beast was no picnic though. That was retired, and now we're using a CLARiiON CX-4 (bought from Dell at the time but also soon to be phased out) and a relatively VNX5400, both of which are much easier to manage and have been stable. *fingers crossed*
      On that count though, Dell's not so terrible either; in some cases we've got a few Dell servers still running even though they're 8 years past EOL (yay for crap budgets) and some are stuck in some truly horrendous environments. It's hard to kill the 1650s, 1750s, and 1850s, apparently.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    11. Re:Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. Their support sucks and sucks even harder for their Compellent SAN products. We have four of their boxes that each cost at least $75k, and Dell has provided no support. They have no clue what they're doing. Two of the boxes are on Exchange servers, and the Compellent keeps disconnecting. Dell has not offered any suggestions as to why. We've changed HBAs, cables, and fibre channel switches, but it still happens. When it does, our email goes down. My boss is probably going to lose his job for buying it.

      The other two are on Microsoft SQL servers, and they just sometimes slow down and require a reboot. Again, Dell has provided no help.

    12. Re:Oh great by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Not quite. Although many times EMC uses Dell parts (sometimes even a whole Dell chassis,) it's not Dell that manufactures them (It's usually not EMC that does it either, rather the manufacturing usually gets done somewhere down the distribution chain.)

      Anyways if I were to guess, I would say that Dell wants to better compete with HP by being able to offer high end storage that HP now has after acquiring 3Par.

    13. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have a Dell Compellent SC8000(IIRC) sitting on the floor unused where it has been for over two months since it won't power up. Despite over a month of screaming and threatening lawsuits, Dell still hasn't sent someone to fix it. We paid for it COD with a bank check so we have no leverage with Dell.

    14. Re:Oh great by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I've worked at least a little with all of the major storage vendors, and pretty much the only knock I'll make against EMC is that they have so many different storage solutions that it's kind of hard to keep track of which is for what purpose. That said, some of these solutions do perform better (or at least are more straightforward to configure) than others, but in EMC's defense that's because a lot of these solutions came from fairly recent acquisitions.

    15. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For our Compellent box, it took about four months to get a quote, two months of delays shipping, nearly a month with the trucking company, three months worth of waiting on "guaranteed" same day response, and finally about six months to workout all the kinks with the configuration, of which Dell was no help. Total, that Dell product was about sixteen months from our decision to buy it until it was put into production and reliable. I don't understand why people still buy from Dell.

    16. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > We have a Dell Compellent SC8000

      On paper, that is an amazing box. It supports up to 960 drives and up to 84 drives in a 5U box. The problem is Dell doesn't seem to have any expertise with the boxes since they apparently either laid off or pissed off all of the Compellent people that have experience with big SAN systems. We use their box for one of our Exchange servers with about 200 TB of disk space. Keeping that thing running is an unholy hell. Any hick-up in the storage causes the Exchange to need to be rebooted. Dell has been no help with the problems, and our users want someone fired over this. My boss made the decision to buy Compellent so he is taking most of the heat.

    17. Re:Oh great by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Their "enterprise" level support is excellent and the products generally perform as advertised

      No. They buy good products, and turn them into bad products with "Enterprise" support, which is enough to keep pointy head bosses happy. You'd be surprise how much leverage "Enterprise" matters to people.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    18. Re:Oh great by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Compellent and Equalogic are to of the great examples of Dell buying a competent lineup, and ruining it forever. They are forever a day late, dollar short. There is, however, a class of bosses who value "Enterprise" labels on things, because it removes them from poor decisions. Dell is the new IBM that nobody got fired for buying. And eventually, they will end up like IBM as Just Another IT Services Company. I'll let you decide if that is worth anything in the long run.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    19. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Dell has provided no help.

      Unless you're a huge, longtime customer Dell's support is terrible. Our last really big purchase from them was three dozen R710 servers at about $8k each. Most didn't work out of the box, but since Dell required we pay with a certified check, it wasn't as if we could threaten a chargeback. It took us over a year to get them to fix all of the servers. Their service guarantees are a lie. By response, they mean they'll have a response. It isn't a guarantee to fix the problem in that amount of time.

    20. Re:Oh great by acoustix · · Score: 2

      I bought a Compellent system about 2 years ago and absolutely love it. Had a EMC CX4-120 previously. The Compellent SC8000 is solid.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    21. Re:Oh great by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 1

      Dell already owns Equallogic which covers the low to mid-range of the storage market pretty well in Dell's offerings.

      Dell ALSO owns Compellent which covers the mid to high range of the storage market too.

      The only asset that EMC has that Dell I think might want would be VMware and the installed base of EMC. EMC still sell some nice arrays, but they're pretty spendy for what you get.

    22. Re:Oh great by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 2

      If you need a smaller array you should check out the SC4020 as well. Runs the same code base as the SC8000 on smaller hardware platform (slower CPU's, less memory) and in some benchmarks (read: not real world typically) can actually outperform the SC8K when fully kitted out due to an internal IPC connection instead of external. You can also happily replicate between the two so the 4020 makes for a great cost-effective DR site replication target when budget is limited. Or a remote datacenter SAN you can replicate to "the mothership".

      Given all this though, I'm surprised to hear that Dell would be even slightly interested in EMC. I've run EMC's and I've run Compellents (and HP's, and NetApps), and quite frankly the SC8K/SC4K family are the best arrays I've ever used.

    23. Re:Oh great by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 2

      They already can't quite figure out how to merge the two systems and have been selling both. The inside story is that EQL will go away, but they never seem to go away and Compellent can't quite come up with a product as simple and cheap as EQL.

      Scuttlebutt is that they're prepping to release firmware for EQL and CML that will allow cross-replication and extend the Enterprise Manager tool to also manage EQL. And the simplicity... well they did just come out with the SCv2000 which is all wizard-driven and about as dead simple to set up as the EQL. I predict we'll see that same level of simplicity making its way into the higher tier products pretty soon.

      I think there's also an open question about the mid-long range future of Compellent's primary sales pitch, its automatic tiering of data between different disk speeds (like SSD, 15k and 7.2k) when the future of data storage looks increasingly like it will be all flash, at least for most of the market volume.

      What does all that tiering overhead mean in a world dominated by flash? Maybe it makes sense for the absolute largest installs where petabytes are in play, but most of the Compellent installs I've seen have been a shelf of tier 1 and maybe 2 shelves of tier 3. And they're increasingly 10G iSCSI focused, passing on FC.

      To me this is interesting. Thing is there's more than one type of SSD technology at play today. There's SLC, (e)MLC and now TLC (3D-NAND). Each of these have different performance stats just like spinning disk. Yeah, even the lowest end of these is 10 times as fast as even a 15K drive but the write performance statistics of each of these drive types in particular is quite different. I remember going from my Samsung SLC 64GB boot drive on my laptop (this is going back several years) to an MLC 128GB drive and despite similar read performance I was always struck by how different the write performance was. Yeah, the MLC was a lot cheaper for the capacity but the write performance suffered greatly. From what I hear, TLC suffers a similar drop in write performance compared to MLC.

      The auto tiering if configured correctly can certainly make for an interesting performance story. Put SLC at the top where you want fast writes and allow it to trickle down to MLC and/or TLC... just like 15K->10K->7K. There's a question mark over whether current controllers can really take advantage of the potential performance in this kind of setup, but we're seeing controller performance increasing over generations anyway.

      The fact that we can now buy TLC drives at enterprise level for about the same price as 15K per GB is incredibly interesting to me and I think will really shake up the industry.

      I can't figure out how they'd blend in EMC to this mix.

      What they're probably after is controlling interest in VMware. This would give them a complete vertical play for virtualization, being able to supply compute, networking, storage and hypervisor. They would probably also be in a position to further a lot of network and storage virtualization with control over both sides of the equation, hardware an software.

      I do wonder if there's a possible anti-trust question here. I also wonder how Microsoft would feel about it as well.

      Ding ding ding! I think we have a winner... even though I have no information here I would guess this is almost certainly the play here. That and RSA would give Dell an even stronger foothold in the Enterprise than they already have. I have to admit they've been making some REALLY interesting changes in their portfolio, support and even sales organizations lately that I think make them a company to watch. Even in networking... they've shit-canned the atrocious Powerconnect line of switches (that some people loved) and replaced with a whole new line of switching from low end to high... and it's really good stuff! I myself just recently replaced my home core switch with an X1018; a low-end half-rack web-managed sw

    24. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have a Dell Compellent SC8000(IIRC) sitting on the floor unused where it has been for over two months since it won't power up. Despite over a month of screaming and threatening lawsuits, Dell still hasn't sent someone to fix it. We paid for it COD with a bank check so we have no leverage with Dell.

      I call BS on this. Nobody is stupid enough to pay for the product until it is setup and running.

      Plus Copilot Support (based in Minneapolis, MN) is some of the best support I have ever received from a vendor.

    25. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had 2 versions of exchange running on 3 different Compellent controllers, currently a SC8000 and SC4020 and have never, even once, had this problem.

    26. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call BS on this. Nobody is stupid enough to pay for the product until it is setup and running.

      Really? Have you ever dealt with Dell as a new customer when buying too much to pay on a credit card? The required we pay with a certified check COD to the trucking company. Of course, once they got their money they refused to provide support. We had no leverage with them to get them to fix anything. We ended-up using about a fourth of the servers we bought as spare parts.

    27. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Nobody is stupid enough to pay for the product until it is setup and running.

      Our about three dozen agreements with Dell Financial Services disagree with you. I've never heard of Dell accepting NET30 terms. Every time we've bought from them, they required either the purchase loan to be completed before shipping or a certified check on or before delivery. As we've had happen several times, if something doesn't work out of the box then you have a hard time getting Dell to replace it because Dell has already been paid for it. Even if the box doesn't work, and never works, you still owe DFS the money on the loan. DFS legally protects themselves from Dell's incompetence just as you would owe GMAC money even if your GM car is a lemon.

      > Minneapolis

      The people I talked to were all in Texas and barely spoke English. Maybe Dell got rid of the more expensive employees in Minneapolis.

    28. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call BS on this. Nobody is stupid enough to pay for the product until it is setup and running.

      Sounds like you have no experience with the topic at hand. Maybe you shouldn't interrupt the adults in the room.

      After buying from Dell for nearly twenty-six years, I haven't heard of them offering trade credit in the past nearly twenty years. Even asking for net 10 will make their salesdrone laugh. Dell requires payment upfront. If it's a large order they will not accept a credit card, so you must either pay them upfront, pay COD with a bank check, or have who you financed with pay them upfront. They don't just ship equipment without getting paid for it.

    29. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Call Dell and ask them to ship a Compellent SAN to you without paying for it, and they will laugh at you.

    30. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's over a quarter of a million dollars! No wonder when we spent about forty thousand on a SAN, they acted like that didn't care that it was missing parts they didn't give a damn. It took us months to get the box up and running.

    31. Re:Oh great by swb · · Score: 1

      And the simplicity... well they did just come out with the SCv2000 which is all wizard-driven and about as dead simple to set up as the EQL. I predict we'll see that same level of simplicity making its way into the higher tier products pretty soon.

      That would sure be nice. I like the statistics and most of the features of EM, but their I/O configuration is lunacy, up to and including the required license for virtual ports. All of that feels like a networking configuration system that was solved (and better) elsewhere. I'd like to think they don't make it horrifically complicated just to drive reseller/support revenue and that there's something deep inside that makes it worthwhile, but I find it hard to believe.

      The auto tiering if configured correctly can certainly make for an interesting performance story. Put SLC at the top where you want fast writes and allow it to trickle down to MLC and/or TLC... just like 15K->10K->7K. There's a question mark over whether current controllers can really take advantage of the potential performance in this kind of setup, but we're seeing controller performance increasing over generations anyway.

      IMHO, new flash technologies like Intel/Micron 3D-Xpoint will moot the need to tier between older generation flash technologies. I also suspect that for all but a few workloads MLC is just so much faster that it won't matter at the customer side. Any performance increase is probably offset by the need for heavier weight controllers needed to manage tiering and data page management.

      And as you suggest, interconnects would remain a limiting factor -- how many 24 drive MLC shelves until you saturate even a SAS-12 bus?

      Even in networking... they've shit-canned the atrocious Powerconnect line of switches (that some people loved) and replaced with a whole new line of switching from low end to high.

      I think the N series is pretty good. I don't see much uptake of Force10 since N series came out and the price/performance/features of the 10 gig N series are pretty good. I'd love for someone to give me a couple of the 10 gig models...

    32. Re:Oh great by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Neither of them have the IOPS needed for any kind modern applications. And if you don't have IOPS, you might as well go for a less expensive system that can create the same level of IOPS, with better redundancy using off the shelf drives, that have the same performance capabilities (See BackBlaze for statistics) as the "Enterprise" drives used by Dell, for half the cost.

      THE ONLY reason you buy either is for "Enterprise" support. While that may be worth it to you, I personally would rather have more capacity, better redundancy and lower actual costs. And knowing what is in the pipe in the way of drives, my horizon for buying Long Term Storage is about 2-3 years, when we start seeing SSD drives in the 16 TB size with 100K IOPS per drive start showing up, completely displacing spinning drives altogether.

      The problem is, most people don't have a proper horizon view of their needs and over spend now, so they don't have to spend later, only to outstrip their own predictions and need replacement storage much sooner than expected. "If you build it, they will come".

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    33. Re:Oh great by eth1 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what Dell or EMC would gain out of this merger, if it is even true. Dell already owns Equallogic which covers the low to mid-range of the storage market pretty well in Dell's offerings.

      Well, the merged company would be "DMC," which would allow them to make storage that sends IO requests back in time, resulting in their completing instantly in the present. Should reduce latency considerably.

    34. Re:Oh great by irussel · · Score: 1

      With the appropriate slogan: When you run our hardware, you RUN DMC.

    35. Re: Oh great by Holi · · Score: 1

      Huh, I'm looking at a sheet of paper from dell outlining my line of credit. I have never once paid for a Dell delivery via COD or Bank Check. I send them a PO and they send me equipment. Later on someone in Accounts Payable starts paying the bill. I usually have the equipment in service before the first check goes out. Granted I don't have 26 years of business with them just a measly 17.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    36. Re: Oh great by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Maybe you paid $12K back in the early Pentium days for a non-Enterprise machine, but the Fortune corporation I worked for didn't. We had that thing hooked up to a mainframe tape drive, which itself was something like $15K in Y2K dollars. We were loading massive quantities of data onto high-speed SCSI disks, and in fact the ONLY reason the whole app wasn't mainframe-based was that the department head was a control freak who didn't want to be at the mercy of the central data center.

      For that much money, it was a big disappointment that one of their major selling points never panned out and that the system arrived missing critical functionality. Which, according to the invoice, when I went back and checked - we'd paid for.

      Plus, as I said, this isn't the only case where Dell didn't offer the flexibility that I expect from a server-grade machine.

    37. Re:Oh great by Nadir · · Score: 1

      EMC owns Vmware

      --
      --
      The world is divided in two categories:
      those with a loaded gun and those who dig. You dig.
    38. Re: Oh great by sexconker · · Score: 1

      When you're spending that much money you either:

      A: Ask accounting for an account number, throw it on the form, and Dell ships. Dell expects your accounting department to balance the account (pay for it with a bank transfer) within 30 days. If you placed the order, the account manager will call your extension and say "Hey, Dell wants their money. Did we get that thing we ordered?". If you say "Yup!" Dell gets paid. If you say "Nope, we never got it." Dell doesn't get paid. If you say "We got it, but it's fucked up." or "They sent the wrong thing." Dell doesn't get paid until they fix it.

      B: Finance and pay monthly via credit card, granting you all the protections you need.

    39. Re:Oh great by saleenS281 · · Score: 1

      Dell's last two attempts at storage - equallogic and compellent - have been complete and utter failures. Their portion of market share isn't even a rounding error. EMC would give them a legitimate play in storage, not even taking into account RSA and their other software products.

    40. Re: Oh great by acoustix · · Score: 1

      I have 11 years experience with Dell enterprise products and pay with Net terms all of the time. Even orders up to $100k. I have also used their financing. Never had a problem with with one. I have had many good account reps over the years that work with us to get us what we need.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    41. Re: Oh great by acoustix · · Score: 1

      Copilot US support is still based in Minneapolis. I've toured the facilities. They brought me onsite to evaluate their product before purchasing.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    42. Re:Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THANK YOU!

      Those switches are really nice actually. The kicker is that their warranty is solid (limited lifetime warranty as long as it stays with the same owner).

    43. Re: Oh great by acoustix · · Score: 1

      Nobody is asking for free hardware. But I have never paid for a product in full before it has been put into production. No exceptions.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    44. Re: Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It appears you're likely an idiot. Net30 has always been an option for us and we aren't even a massive company.

    45. Re:Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the real answer is VMware, especially with Nutanix thrown into the mix.

    46. Re: Oh great by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Pretty much this. I was "in charge" of such things but I generally let the techs buy the products they said they needed and didn't do much more than sign on the dotted line. I'm not positive of the actual amount but I think it was pretty common to put 10% down and pay the rest off within 30 days. When we needed to expand we needed to do it in a hurry.

      I had neither the time nor expertise to tell my techs how to do their job so we used what they needed. (That is some expensive stuff, by the way.) We usually stuck with a few OEMs and one vendor. Most of what we used was Sun, Dell, and we had some HP stuff for a while (I want to say it was Prolient but I truly don't know) and our switches and whatnot were from Cisco until Juniper came on the scene. I am pretty sure we also ordered a bunch of stuff through a company called CDW?

      By then I was already kicked out of my own server room (rightfully so) and didn't have time for the finer details. The stuff was expensive but they'd get good use out of it. I tried keeping up with the techs for a while but it just got overwhelming as I was busy elsewhere. I figured it best to get out of the way and let them do what they were paid to do? I don't recall anyone ever walking out the back with valuable equipment or anything and they got done what they said they'd get done so I guess I can't complain.

      I do know that we generally didn't pay for anything in total until after we had it and had it up and running. We were a compute and data storage intensive business so we went through a lot of hardware and were constantly needing to do more and to do it faster and with bigger data sets. Then as we expanded into multiple offices we had a bunch of teething issues with getting enough bandwidth. Ah well...

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    47. Re:Oh great by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 1

      Neither of them have the IOPS needed for any kind modern applications.

      While I agree with just about everything else you wrote; I do take some issue with this particular statement.

      Modern applications meaning what exactly? If you're talking about big data then you're right... but you don't use a traditional SAN array for big data if you're smart; you use a proper object-based storage platform and scale it that way. Traditional SAN arrays suck for those workloads. But if you're talking VDI, SQL, web farms and general purpose virtualization then I'm afraid you're wrong.

      Realistically when fully kitted out in SYNTHETIC BENCHMARKS, the "low-end" SC4020 will top out at over 400,000 IOPS. Yes, real-world will be a lot lower but you can comfortably expect 150K-200K IOPS with sub millisecond latency pushing about 6GB/s in real world operations. The SC8000 is more like 300K IOPS or thereabouts in those same synthetic benchmarks, but can push a lot more data (around 20GB/s) and still get in the 150K-200K IOPS range due to the fact that it can have more than one SAS chain while the SC4020 only has one. No, it's not the "million IOPS" you get advertised by EMC and the like... but in real world I have rarely seen even the might XTremeIO get anywhere close to that... 300-400K IOPS in real world is more realistic. Yes, faster... but not amazingly faster.

      Besides, "modern applications" don't actually require near as much storage IOPS as most people think. I had a customer recently asking me about SANs that ran in excess of 150K IOPS for their new primary storage. We talked about a lot of expensive options (Violin, XTremeIO and so forth) but when we actually did some monitoring of their actual application load they were hovering around 60K IOPS. Even their peak load was under 75K IOPS so they ended up in a lower cost and more expandable solutions... and ironically given this topic here they ended up with a pair of SC8000's with Dell's "Live Volume" capabilities so they could move workloads around on the fly. So much cheaper than the alternatives and fit their actual workloads perfectly... not what some marketing guy was telling them they needed. Each SC8K is storing about a half petabyte each and can scale to about 2PB each.

      I find this is incredibly common... most people don't actually know what their workloads are using so they tend to buy into the marketing hype being spouted by the high-end storage vendors. Then they end up overspending for their solution... yeah they have plenty of headroom and there's no doubt in my mind that they're getting the best performance they could possibly get out of it (because their applications don't really scale), but I've been amused when I've seen 5 year old arrays being decommed that aren't even close to their actual maximum performance because some salesdroid said they needed a million IOPS.

      And to Dell's credit it's not like they're sitting on their laurels waiting. It's well known they have new stuff in the pipe for Compellent... probably for announcement at the next Dell World conference. I'll be interested to see what they do with their next generation hardware... the SC8K has been a fantastic platform but it is getting a bit long in the tooth. Having said that I think they could probably continue to do more with the SC8K because I've rarely seen one exceed ~10% of the CPU utilization.

  3. HPQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maker of personal computers buys maker of big iron. What could possibly go wrong?

    1. Re: HPQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing. Dell and EMC are pretty much appliance companies. They are no more high tech than Samsung TVs - I would even argue that a TV maker is more high tech.

      But for some reason we don't think of TVs as being high tech - of cars for that matter.

      I know. It is all Wall Street labeling. Get a company known as a tech company, then the dipshit CFAs give it an unreasonable valuation. It's all part of the valuation bubble.

    2. Re: HPQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh. Do you do high end storage system design?

    3. Re:HPQ by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Where does Brocade come into this?

    4. Re:HPQ by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Nowhere. And if Brocade was smart, they would never sell to Dell. Going to dell is a good way to kill off your company.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  4. Huh? by halivar · · Score: 1

    You understand that Dell sells enterprise hardware already, right?

    1. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enterprise hardware, yes.

      Big iron, no.

      I don't think that Dell has anything even remotely similar to systems like nonstop or superdome do they?

      (I have the unfortunate joy of dealing with a fair selection of different bit of dell gear, and in every other criteria apart from price, I'd go for a different vendor).

    2. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And EMC makes enterprise hardware. Unfortunately, they don't sell that much: it's high end, over engineered, and capable of amazing performance if you're willing to spend that much money on proprietary tools that lock you into a single vendor and are probably capable of tasks you don't really need. They're a lot like Cisco high end gear in that sense.

      Dell does well in the low price server and midrange personal computer market. It doesn't look like a good match in business approach between the companies.

    3. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You understand that Dell sells enterprise hardware already, right?

      Only for very crappy definitions of "enterprise hardware".

    4. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For low values of enterprise.

    5. Re:Huh? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Dell sells "enterprise" hardware. Their standard business class stuff is good, but their higher end stuff is trouble.

    6. Re:Huh? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Uh, 'big iron" means mainframes. As in hot swapping RAM and CPUs, uptime measured in decades, paying the old guy a lot of money cuz he's the only one who knows how it works, etc.

    7. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't?

  5. Re:The Truth About The Clinton years and The CIA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I've decided not to have any children

    The world thanks you.

  6. uh-huh by rmdingler · · Score: 1

    Dell is reportedly in talks to buy all or part of enterprise storage powerhouse EMC, which would mark a bold and unexpected new chapter in the PC maker's history.

    According to unnamed sources in the WSJ, who also cautioned the companies might not finalize any agreement. Cautionary tale.

    Sort of like this, these deals don't always materialize.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

  7. Evil, Mean and Cruel + Dell by enjar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dude, you got laid off!

    Seriously, though, what a unholy mess that would be. EMC grew by acquiring a lot of other companies, then spinning them off, and not really doing a fantastic job of integrating anything, then laying off tens of thousands only to hire again. Dell has it's own history of being huge, then being private, now seemingly on the roll again. It would be a fitting end for the the execs at EMC that acquired and fired to get acquired and fired themselves, although the big difference will be that they will get some giant golden parachute.

    1. Re:Evil, Mean and Cruel + Dell by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      You know, from what I've been able to see, the M+A culture in tech for the last 20+ years has consistently made the same stupid mistakes ... companies buy other companies who aren't really good matches, screw up the product, lay off a bunch of people, and consolidate into an ever smaller amount of companies.

      And those large entities become worse and worse at even knowing what they have, and making use of them.

      Often to the point that the reasons they spent huge sums of money on the acquisition in the first place get lost, and then they stop selling the product entirely.

      I would argue that acquisitions is more destructive than constructive. All it really does is gut smaller companies, give those executives huge payouts while laying off their staff, and then leaving the new company to ignore/neglect/screw up the product offerings of the company which got bought.

      I'm betting hundreds of companies with good products have essentially been destroyed in the process, largely so some half-wit of a CEO could add another buzzword or two to his portfolio of lies and bullshit.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Evil, Mean and Cruel + Dell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are 100% right. And the fault lies COMPLETELY with the business people, not the engineers. MBA types really don't understand business at all, because they don't understand THE business of the company. They don't understand how products or services get created. The know how to add up numbers on a spreadsheet.

    3. Re:Evil, Mean and Cruel + Dell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      All it really does is gut smaller companies, give those executives huge payouts while laying off their staff, and then leaving the new company to ignore/neglect/screw up the product offerings of the company which got bought.

      If you're one of these executives, this is not a bad thing. It's the goal.

    4. Re:Evil, Mean and Cruel + Dell by JimSadler · · Score: 1

      I find it really odd that anyone would want a Dell computer. Both the designs as well as the quality are lacking in my humble opinion.

    5. Re:Evil, Mean and Cruel + Dell by enjar · · Score: 1

      I had a Dell notebook in college, running a Windows 3.1 and a speed demon 25 MHz processor. The thing lasted 5+ years, and the thing that finally died was the battery. It had a black and white screen and pretty decent battery life.

      My wife has an Inspiron something or other that's been chugging along for 4+ years. I need to transplant a SSD into it, but otherwise the quality is perfectly fine. But it was bought from their "business" site, which means no bloatware to remove and (IMHO) it's much better designed as something you would deploy to a lot of people. They put things like RAM and hard drive behind an easily accessible panel so they can be swapped with a few screws. I've seen worse.

      Their low end desktop machines seem to command something of an aftermarket following if you are looking to get a pile of identical hardware in the $200 range to fill up a basic computer lab or set someone up with a basic PC that does web browsing and email.

  8. And it comes around... by Matt_Bennett · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I used to work for Dell- I remember at one of the company meetings, I think it was Michael Dell himself, referring to EMC as "Excess Margin Corporation" - of course this was before they were partnering on projects.

    1. Re:And it comes around... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always known them as "Evil Money Corp."

    2. Re:And it comes around... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At one of the Dell Sales meets, while dressed at Darth Vader as part of a skit, I remember MD mentioned EMC stood for "Easily Migrates to Compellent" - quite witty for tech speak.

  9. Re:The Truth About The Clinton years and The CIA by MagickalMyst · · Score: 1

    You must have seen The Clinton Chronicles

    --
    Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
  10. knig on the mountaim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    EMC acquired companies that they thought would help them sell storage, Dell will help EMC sell storage since all servers need it. It's that simple. Who ends up at the top is a food fight, or king on the mountain depending on which metaphor you like.

  11. What about VCE and VMWare? by ErichTheRed · · Score: 3, Interesting

    EMC, Cisco and VMWare are tied up in a sort of loose alliance to sell cloudy boxes to large companies (VBlock.) I wonder what would happen with that, and also whether Dell would own VMWare. That would be a pretty huge reversal of fortune for Dell. I guess that trip through privatization let them fix the company without being under the microscope every quarter. It seems to me that this would be a lesson for companies looking to IPO -- unless you need access to billions and billions of dollars in funding, being out of the public eye can be a good thing.

    I honestly haven't looked at Dell hardware for a very long time, since most of the physical stuff we deploy is outside of the US and they have horrible international warranty service. Their low end consumer PCs are garbage and always have been, but I've heard the business lines of desktops, laptops and servers are still halfway decent.

    1. Re:What about VCE and VMWare? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Dell going private was the right move because the stock market and financial services industry as a whole are completely broken.

      There are some very, very, very rich scumbags that manage hedge funds that have found out they can take over, cripple, disassemble, and sell off the assets all but the very largest and very most powerful companies in the world and they do it regularly.

      Hedge funds (and similar entities) will collude with each other. They will buy up your stock, gain control, fuck over your company, sell off your assets, sell your property and then charge you rent for it.. Then leave your company to wither and die. Dell was very close to being here (Remember that little shit Ichan and all his blathering? If he got his way Dell would be up for sale right now, likely to Lenovo or HP)

      Being public means you can be taken over by entities that do not have your companies best interest in mind.

      Worse, I think the above Financial services industry has a secondary goal - The wholesale destruction of the middle class. Wherever they show up it job cuts, job cuts, job cuts. I think they specifically incentivise job cuts not just to make money, but to reduce the buying power and the very political voice of of the people. This leaves them to control the federal and state governments and to make sure nothing is ever done about their schemes.

      Things will get worse before they get better. When the next crash happens will you let wall street off the hook again? Will it be bad enough to see suits in jail? Will it be bad enough to see suits hanging from lamp posts?

    2. Re:What about VCE and VMWare? by elistan · · Score: 1

      I honestly haven't looked at Dell hardware for a very long time, since most of the physical stuff we deploy is outside of the US and they have horrible international warranty service. Their low end consumer PCs are garbage and always have been, but I've heard the business lines of desktops, laptops and servers are still halfway decent.

      Warning: anecdote from a Winddows admin incoming.
      I started working in a Compaq shop. Which became HP, of course.
      Then a heterogeneous shop with IBM, Dell and HP.
      Then an all-Dell shop.
      Then an all-HP shop.
      In my experience, all three brands have had generally the same reliability and performance - but the ease of server management (installing drivers and updates, configuring lights-out management and alerts, etc.) and the experience of tech support have been significantly better with Dell.

      (Regarding SANs - I've found that EMC is ridiculously fast yet ridiculously cryptic to manage, EQL is ridiculously easy to manage yet struggles on performance and reliability, and new tech like Nimble so far appears to be both very fast and very easy. It'll be very interesting to see what an EMC/Dell merger would produce. I have zero experience with Compellent.)

  12. Not credible... by Junta · · Score: 1

    Dell can't 'acquire' EMC, there's no way they have the cash.

    "Another report, this time fromre/code,HYPERLINK "http://recode.net/2015/10/07/emc-is-looking-to-sell-part-of-its-business-to-dell/"citesits own sources to the effect that EMC was merely trying to offload its VNX line"

    This rumor is more credible, Dell could probably afford something like the VNX line.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Not credible... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one is going to lose ownership. They are going to merge, by exchanging shares they hold with each other. Dell doesnt need money at all, to merge with EMC.

    2. Re:Not credible... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would they want it? EQL is far superior in my experience.

  13. Acquisition and creating/destroying value by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I would argue that acquisitions is more destructive than constructive.

    Frequently that is true and there is plenty of academic research to support this thesis. It's not true all the time however. There are plenty of very successful acquisitions and it's not hard to find them. I've been involved with a few successful ones myself. It's not hard to find acquisitions that destroyed value though.

    The ones that tend to work best are bolt on inquisitions between companies with similar cultures. Integrating two companies is hard but if the cultures clash it will almost certainly be doomed from the start no matter how promising other facets of the deal might be.

    1. Re:Acquisition and creating/destroying value by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      I was at a company once, and they'd grown by acquisitions. I'm sure everybody has by now.

      Invariably, the VP of R&D of the last major acquisition became the VP of R&D for the entire company. And, also invariably, that VP of R&D would develop a massive case of Not Invented Here, and attempt to kill off any products outside of his own core knowledge.

      This usually led to idiotic decisions which were inconsistent with why that company was bought in the first place -- precisely because they stupidly wanted to kill off the products they'd been intended to augment and improve, not wipe out and destroy.

      At the employee level, it just became a pathetic running joke ... oh,. look, another acquisition, we should throw away our core business for whatever widget these idiots do.

      And then there's all the examples where the company being bought had cooked the books to the point that what they actually were worth had nothing to do with what got paid for them ... like HP and Autonomy.

      Acquisition MIGHT be something which can be made to work. Far too often it just ends up destroying the thing which had enough value to have bought in the first place.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  14. I bought some of EMC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    100 shares doesn't make a Slashdot article. But at least my story is true.

  15. M&A can work fine but it's hard by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Acquisition MIGHT be something which can be made to work.

    There's no need to qualify that statement. Some acquisition activity is demonstrably beneficial. Berkshire Hathaway is a great example of a company that does lots of acquisitions. But the reason it works for them is that they are careful not to screw up what made the company they are acquiring great in the first place. (In fact they largely leave the acquired company alone aside from some capital allocation) Apple also is a pretty good example of a company that seems to usually do a good job with acquisitions. They get small companies for very clear reasons whose products are a clear fit with what Apple is trying to do. M&A can be a great way to cherry pick good new products and R&D. Pharmaceutical companies do this all the time with pretty good success. It CAN work but it's not easy or simple.

    Other companies manage to screw it up royally. Daimler's merger with Chrysler. AOL with Time Warner. A big auto supplier I used to work for went bankrupt because they bought another big auto supplier in bad financial shape and couldn't digest the acquisition. Stock price went from $50 when I started to under $5 when I left. CEO made a deal literally on the golf course to try to grow the balance sheet top line but didn't do adequate due diligence and the bottom line went to hell.

  16. Cash not necessary for an acquisition by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Dell can't 'acquire' EMC, there's no way they have the cash.

    You don't need cash to do an acquisition or merger. It can be an all stock transaction which is essentially funny-money with no cash changing hands. Cash is nice but not actually required as long as your stock price is high enough.

    1. Re:Cash not necessary for an acquisition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need cash to do an acquisition or merger. It can be an all stock transaction which is essentially funny-money with no cash changing hands. Cash is nice but not actually required as long as your stock price is high enough.

      Dell is currently privately held. No public stock...

    2. Re:Cash not necessary for an acquisition by Junta · · Score: 1

      Ok, they don't have the cash or equity either to 'acquire'. Merger might be another thing, but the story has said 'Dell looking to acquire' not 'looking to merge'.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  17. A merger is just a euphamism by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Ok, they don't have the cash or equity either to 'acquire'.

    Sure they do. All they have to do is issue stock and have the shareholders of the other company accept that as payment. You can call it a "merger" if you want but functionally it will be an acquisition by one company or the other at the end of the day. One management team is going bye-bye and whose left will tell you who bought who. Chrysler merging with Daimler was a "merger of equals" but not really. Happens all the time.

  18. Bought EMC's Avamar and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thing breaks nonstop. It's some kind of insane joke. And other people I know have the exact same problem. Never touching another EMC product for another decade at least.

    1. Re:Bought EMC's Avamar and... by acoustix · · Score: 1

      I also ran Avamars (replicating to DR site). We struggled with the product's reliability and upgrades never seemed to work correctly. Some of the management was through the Java front end, others were using the Linux CLI. It all seemed very disjointed. Switched to Dell's Appassure about 2 years ago and haven't looked back. One management interface (website) and upgrades are pretty simple. Also much cheaper than Avamar.

      One of the other issues I didn't like with Avamar was the licensing model. I bought the servers, but then had to pay again to utilize all of the storage available. This made it a very expensive backup solution. With Appassure I can attach as much storage as I want to the server and never pay extra.

      No, I do not work for Dell or any of their companies. I'm just a satisfied customer with a solid team supporting me.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson