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Ethics Panel Endorses Mitochondrial Therapy, But Says Start With Male Embryos (sciencemag.org)

sciencehabit writes: An experimental assisted reproduction technique that could allow some families to avoid having children with certain types of heritable disease should be allowed to go forward in the United States, provided it proceeds slowly and cautiously. That is the conclusion of a report released today from a panel organized by the U.S. National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (NAS), which assesses the ethics questions surrounding the controversial technique called mitochondrial DNA replacement therapy. More controversially, however, the panel recommended that only altered male embryos should be used to attempt a pregnancy, to limit the possible risks to future generations. (Males can't pass along the mitochondrial DNA that is altered in the procedure.)

125 comments

  1. Old News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is old news.

  2. cyclops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want my laser eyes

  3. Controversial? by sexconker · · Score: 1

    Why is it controversial, exactly?
    Are critics worried about the X-Men? Or are they mad because of religious rigmarole?

    1. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are critics worried about the X-Men?

      I think the controversy is that they are proposing to ensure there are no X-Women.

    2. Re:Controversial? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why is it controversial, exactly?
      Are critics worried about the X-Men? Or are they mad because of religious rigmarole?

      Because they are creating genetically modified human beings. Currently, the technique is being looked at for certain negative conditions, but it has the potential to be used for other purposes, too. The issue of designer babies is a moral question, not a scientific one. And, moral questions are often controversial.

    3. Re:Controversial? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0

      "What could possibly go wrong"

      Has nothing to do with religion. Has everything to do with Scientists ignoring Darwinism and trying to fix nature's "mistakes" without understanding they may not be mistakes after all, but Genetic Mutations for the survival of the fittest. Some mutations are bad/good, until they are proven otherwise. Like sickle cell trait is bad, but has genetic strengths against Malaria. Remove the trait, you remove the benefit the trait provides, making the species weaker.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:Controversial? by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Lots of things we do subvert evolution such as treating genetic diseases so people could live normally, social welfare, fertility treatments etc... Either we step the plate with eugenics or figure out how to fix peoples genes before we turn in to blubbering piles of meat ;-)

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    5. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Has everything to do with Scientists ignoring Darwinism and trying to fix nature's "mistakes" without understanding they may not be mistakes after all, but Genetic Mutations for the survival of the fittest.

      That doesn't make sense and sounds a lot like the kind of interpretation of Darwinism that you would expect a hundred years ago.

    6. Re:Controversial? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There's a very small but non-zero chance of screwing up - introducing some unintended damage to the DNA which will go initially unnoticed, until the subject's muscles start to turn to gloop twenty years later. At least this way any screwups are contained to one individual.

    7. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As every carthaginian knows, 'tis a parent's duty to sacrifice young males.

    8. Re:Controversial? by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Gender is a social construct ;)

      Well it is; at least all that pink-is-for-girls, blue-is-for-boys rubbish is. People who are biologically male can wear high heels and enjoy chick flicks, but they can't pass on mitochondrial DNA, which is the relevant point here.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    9. Re:Controversial? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Would you want to come in second place to a GM human? Once we start messing with humans, creating artificiality better humans and regular old normal humans, One group will need to oppress the other. Either Super humans will be banned from all Competition with regular humans, or regular Humans will naturally lose all competitions.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    10. Re:Controversial? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Because they are creating genetically modified human beings.

      All humans are the result of genetic modification, usually as a result of a technique called "sex".

      The issue of designer babies is a moral question, not a scientific one.

      Moral decisions should be made by individuals, not governments. As long as the procedure is technically safe (and presumably it is, since it is already legal in Britain), then the government has no business telling individuals how and when they reproduce. Keep your laws off my body.

    11. Re:Controversial? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Has everything to do with Scientists ignoring Darwinism

      You could make the same argument against smallpox vaccination. Or indoor plumbing.

    12. Re:Controversial? by St.Creed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I see you haven't looked into mitochondrial disease at all.

      I knew a couple that just lost their child to it. The baby took 9 months to die, losing all bodily functions and slowly withering away, unable to obtain energy for the cells from food. A colleague of my wife lost their baby in two months to a comparable but slightly different genetic failmode, which caused the skin to fall off her body. She died in horrible agony without eyes, nose and cheeks, and black, rotting skin all over.

      There are pretty compelling reasons to want to do something about this, and it's really no coincidence that the mitochondrial diseases are first in line for an attempt at a cure.

      Even then, sickle cell trait may have genetic strengths against malaria, but it's a stopgap measure at best and we have much better treatments nowadays - if you can afford to get a genetic cure, you can certainly afford profylaxis and medication against malaria. This goes for many other "genetic strengths" that are mostly crippling disabilities, as well. So to me, your statement is merely a variation on the rather worn out theme that "man should not meddle with Nature".

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    13. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither of which are heritable risks.

    14. Re:Controversial? by pr0fessor · · Score: 2

      You had to say meat because blubbering blubber sounds redundant.

    15. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Genetic modification in humans is not necessarily safe. Human's are complex organisms and we just don't fully understand all the gene interactions. It is one thing to choose to modify your own genes but it is another to want to modify someone else's when there are still so many unknowns. It is why most of the time it is limited to curing disease rather than something like changing eye color or height.

    16. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So that's what happened at the end of Neon Genesis Evangelion.

      Captcha: imminent

    17. Re:Controversial? by hey! · · Score: 2

      Well, I think this is one of those cases where there's an umbrella rule that serve purpose, but which might also have sensible exceptions. In this case the rule is that selecting embryo sex is something that ought to be discouraged.

      There are lots of reasons to discourage selecting offspring sex, some of which a reasonable person might disagree with. For example some would object that it's playing God. Others might say say that it's wrong to value persons of one sex more than others. I don't find those particular objections compelling, but one thing I do find convincing is that changing the almost 1:1 balance of reproductive age men and women could destabilize society in various ways. But note that under that particular objection we could certainly tolerate exceptions that are relatively rare. For example the slight discrepancy between the number of males who identify as gay and the number of females who identify as lesbian has no practical impact on straight people. Clearly an exception in this case would only affect a handful of people and is not a concern under the demographic balance argument.

      The knee-jerk controversy that follows any proposal to do something which as a rule of thumb is frowned upon does serve a useful function. Because of confirmation bias, people tend to be blind to unintended consequences of things they've decided to do. Making them address those consequences is, within reason, a good idea.

      Anyhow, that explains why restricting this to male embryos is more controversial than allowing either sex. Doing it at all is controversial because of the burden a failure could put on future society and the potential suffering it could cause.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    18. Re:Controversial? by guises · · Score: 1

      Well that's one part of it, but this is also about preventing people from having children in a case where they might pass along something harmful. Nowadays, ever since the Nazis really, folks get all up in arms about that sort of thing. Go figure.

    19. Re:Controversial? by TommyNelson · · Score: 1

      I think they mean its controversial to limit this procedure to male embryos. Probably thinking this may be (politically rather than biologically) sexist. Nevertheless, as the summary correctly states, mitochondrial DNA is passed on via the female branch of a family. Therefore, if they fuck up anything, the issue stops with the male embryo in question as he won't pass on the potentially borked DNA to his offspring. Makes sense to me, that.

    20. Re:Controversial? by avandesande · · Score: 2

      I don't always talk about meat, but when I do, it's blubbering!

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    21. Re:Controversial? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 3, Funny

      Moral decisions should be made by individuals, not governments.

      So as long as I think a murder is justified...?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    22. Re:Controversial? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Why is it controversial, exactly?
      Are critics worried about the X-Men? Or are they mad because of religious rigmarole?

      Depends on whether you're a Christian fundamentalist wacko or an anti-GMO wacko.

      But all fears aside, this seems to be a way of beta-testing a mitochondrial fix in male embryos before making the same fix on the female side, who would then be able to pass the patch on in the human germline.

    23. Re:Controversial? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      "Moral decisions should be made by individuals, not governments. "

      What you mean is that genetic choice should be made by individuals ('I want my babies to look like this person...') rather than by governments, in which case it's called eugenics.

    24. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they are creating genetically modified human beings.

      All humans are the result of genetic modification, usually as a result of a technique called "sex".

      The issue of designer babies is a moral question, not a scientific one.

      Moral decisions should be made by individuals, not governments. As long as the procedure is technically safe (and presumably it is, since it is already legal in Britain), then the government has no business telling individuals how and when they reproduce. Keep your laws off my body.

      Genetic modification via sex does not combine the primary genetic material of more than two parents. As for the procedure being legal in Britain, that doesn't matter as this discussion is about US laws. There are many things not legal in Britain that are in the US, should the US change those laws to comply with British rule?

      You state that moral decisions should be made by the individual and then go on to say that the government has no business being involved in moral issues. Yet, there are many moral issues that we do not want left to the individual. If you make the moral decision to shoot up a school, should the government keep out of that? Using the my body my choice mentality is meaningless, too. Should the government keep out of the decision if a minor chooses to have sex with an adult? What about rape? After all, that is another moral issue, is it not? And finally, the whole question of my body my choice is moot. Every cell in the human body with a full set of chromosomes has the same DNA. An embryo has a different set of DNA from either parent, and by definition, isn't part of the mother's body.

    25. Re:Controversial? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      You seem to think I am opposed to this. I did not take a stand one way or the other. I just answered the OP's rhetorical question.

    26. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moral decisions should be made by individuals, not governments.

      So as long as I think a murder is justified...?

      The poster seems to only be dealing with sexual morality, so instead of murder, you should use rape, sodomy, pornography, sex with a minor, invalid, corpse, etc. After all, it is up to the individual what is moral, not society according to the OP).

    27. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is this such a big problem to you?

      I mean, we already have that kind of situation, some people have genetics that makes them more suitable for certain sports.
      We don't ban Kenyans from running just so that your favorite Belgian can win.
      It only becomes a problem if you think that one group has a higher value than the other/is entitled to win.

    28. Re:Controversial? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0

      So, you're willing to risk the entire gene pool to fix one person. Got it.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    29. Re:Controversial? by Coren22 · · Score: 2

      High heels were originally invented for men to wear when riding horses, so sure men can wear high heels.

      I can't conceive of a man enjoying a chick flick though.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    30. Re:Controversial? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You're over-reacting a bit. I'd say he meant to always be aware of the law of unintended consequences when you're buggering about with shit you only know a bit about.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    31. Re:Controversial? by Coren22 · · Score: 2

      You forgot polygamy, where the state says three consenting adults can't get married...because reasons.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    32. Re:Controversial? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 0

      Genetic modification via sex does not combine the primary genetic material of more than two parents.

      Sometimes it does. A chimera can contain genetic material from the mother, and from two different fathers.

    33. Re:Controversial? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Personally, I think that allowing for sex selection would be a self correcting problem. In China, with the one child rule, the ratios were thrown off, this led to a lot of males with no chances of finding a wife. So the sexism of the previous generation is bred out of the society as people see the error of choosing to have primarily male offspring. Perhaps this could lead to a reduction of populations in China and the Middle east where sexism prevails as the way.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    34. Re:Controversial? by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

      How is the creation of a slave caste not only a big problem, but something you should always put a lot of consideration into before embarking on? I don't care if slavery already exists, it is still a big deal.

      Also, while there exists areas like running where one genetic group dominates, none of them dominate in more than one area. Kenian's still have an average IQ of 90 or something like that. And fortunate or not, society is so far away from a meritocracy that we simply do not see the pooling of genetic excellence and failures into distinct groups. Rich people do score higher on average, but there is a huge income mobility in America. Most successful people become less successful and most unsuccessful people become more successful, so the direct opposite of a meritocracy.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    35. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Eventually perhaps.

      However more immediately you'll get a situation where the demand for wives leads to kidnapping of girls which leads to having a female child being even less desirable as she'd probably get kidnapped and raped.

    36. Re:Controversial? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      It gives the scientists a chance to beta-test a new modification. That way, they can determine how effective it is, without it accidentally spreading throughout the population.

    37. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? Now all the people not resistant to smallpox survived and reproduced! I'd call that quite a heritable risk.

    38. Re:Controversial? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Would you want to come in second place to a GM human? Once we start messing with humans, creating artificiality better humans and regular old normal humans, One group will need to oppress the other. Either Super humans will be banned from all Competition with regular humans, or regular Humans will naturally lose all competitions.

      I'd love to be a GM human. All those years of playing Ice Hockey have taken their toll. The problem is that if I had to do it all over again, I would do the same thing.

      Evolution is far far from perfect. Nothing wrong with tighening up a few parameters here and there.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    39. Re:Controversial? by hey! · · Score: 1

      Oh, it is self-correcting. It's just that the process of correction isn't so nice for the people who have to live through it.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    40. Re:Controversial? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How is the creation of a slave caste not only a big problem, but something you should always put a lot of consideration into before embarking on?

      Wow - that escalated quickly. I'd like bones that would resist osteoarthritis, and tendons/ligaments that would be stronger, ad you're going on a planet of the Apes scenario.

      Also, while there exists areas like running where one genetic group dominates, none of them dominate in more than one area. Kenian's still have an average IQ of 90 or something like that.

      For crying out loud - don't go there. Because You can't tell a thing about a person's IQ just by telling us what genetic background he or she has. I don't care if the average IQ is 150, it still doesn't predict.

      And fortunate or not, society is so far away from a meritocracy that we simply do not see the pooling of genetic excellence and failures into distinct groups.

      Wait - your sentence parses like a eugenicist. I had to g oback and re-read your other post I replied to as well.

      You have fallen for the bell curve syndrome, where for some not quite sane reason, we have to determine an individual's worth based on his ethnicity.

      That makes as much sense as deciding that because I make X number of dollars a year, all the members of my family also makes that much money per year. Even in genetics - you can't tell. My family has a generally high IQ But my mother and one sister were normal IQ. So you couldn't tell their IQ from the others in the family, without meeting them and those of us with the higher IQ's did not function any better, nor they any worse. We were all just a family with no slaves at all. Wrath of Kahn was a movie, not how people with some improved functions are going to act.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    41. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...different genetic failmode, which caused the skin to fall off her body. She died in horrible agony without eyes, nose and cheeks, and black, rotting skin all over.

      Yes, the fatal genetic diseases that affect the skin are particularly horrifying. Most of the photos in genetic dysmorphology textbooks aren't really all that disturbing to look at. But the photos of babies born without skin. That's the stuff of nightmares.

      With personal/medical genome sequencing now down to about $1000/person for the raw data, though, we can hope that in another decade or two these kinds of birth defects will only be a distant ugly memory - at least for people in developed countries. Given what's at stake, it will be interesting to see whether, in retrospect, the ethics concerns and regulations that pervade the field of medical genomics will come to be seen as stifling and detrimental.

    42. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they can wear them, but the question is should they? I think it's along the same lines as spandex. It's a privilege not a right.

    43. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many moral (and ethical) decisions have consequences outside the individual.

      For example, what about the children? Have we thought about the children? Think of the children!

    44. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is it controversial, exactly?

      Because this is a method that modifies traits handed down exclusively by the female parent. Like Judaism. So this could be a surreptitious attempt to wipe out Jews.

    45. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what happens if there is an inherent flaw in the solution in the second or third generation?

    46. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Marriage, when the government is involved is a legal contract between two people and the state - this is how the state has authority over it regarding divorce, property and how individuals gain legal powers of attorney, the right to not testify in court against a spouse as the two are legally one entity, tax benefits, etc.,..

      Marriage, when religion is involved, is a separate thing. In this situation, a religion can refuse to marry certain pairing and can marry other groupings like multiple people with polygamy.

      The entire problem regarding the whole marriage thing lately is a failure to recognize this separation. It is possible to be married according to a religion without being recognized by the state. It is also possible to be married by the state without being recognized by a religion. Right now, many religious people want to use the state to enforce their own religious definition of marriage when the state cannot do. The state can enforce the legal definition and is without forcing anything on any religion.

      When the topic comes up, usually the two sides are arguing past each other. One side is saying the state is enforcing a religious definition of the word marriage when is is really enforcing a legal definition. The other side is saying religion is trying legislate a religious definition, and it is. This is something the government cannot do. The SCOTUS, I think, was correct with this particular ruling.

      SO, the state says three consenting adults can't get married in a legal sense. The state has said nothing about three people being married by a church. That marriage just wouldn't have the legal benefits.

      The whole Kim Davis thing... She has the right to any religious belief she chooses and the state has no right to an opinion or action based on those beliefs. However, as an agent of the state, she has the responsibility to hold no opinion and to take no action based on her beliefs or based on those of the people.

      The church and state need to be separate. If she can keep them separate when on the job and when in church, great. If she cannot, then she harms both the church and the state and should find another job.

    47. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are ignoring the damn procedure entirely.

      There is ZERO advantage to mitochondrial failures.
      It doesn't affect the rest of our DNA directly, only indirectly.
      Mitochondrial failures are like faulty batteries.
      They are only surviving BECAUSE we are intervening and living longer than our genome is used to, before having babies, so passing on things our genome has had basically zero exposure to.

      It is like taking out a failed battery and putting in a normal one, not like putting in a lion and calling it a day.
      We aren't doing anything that special here. (not to insult the procedure or lower it in any way, it is amazing work)
      If it were putting in some sort of super mitochondria that let me use the force, now, that would be awesome.

    48. Re:Controversial? by Accordion+Noir · · Score: 1

      "Moral decisions should be made by individuals, not governments."

      By the time any individual is presented with these choices they've already been filtered by many much larger institutions, including in this case government, pharmaceutical corporations, university research labs, various levels of scientists, (and maybe you should include pressure brought by the media/Slashdot), so I wouldn't single out government influence for wrath as if everything else is individual choice.

      It isn't a couple in the back of a car who suddenly flip a coin to decide what hair colours they want their kid to have. There's a lot more people already involved, and the decisions already have a lot of outside pressure when it gets to potential individual parents.

      --
      "Ruthlessly pursuing the idea that the accordion is just another instrument."
    49. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Wow - that escalated quickly. I'd like bones that would resist osteoarthritis, and tendons/ligaments that would be stronger, ad you're going on a planet of the Apes scenario.

      Eat properly and move your body more than scratching your ass.

    50. Re:Controversial? by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      I thought it was what started Parasite Eve

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    51. Re:Controversial? by Livius · · Score: 1

      People will see the error of other people's choices. Not much chance any of them will see their own.

    52. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moral decisions should be made by individuals, not governments. As long as the procedure is technically safe (and presumably it is, since it is already legal in Britain), then the government has no business telling individuals how and when they reproduce. Keep your laws off my body.

      Libertarianism is the belief that if we simply deny that boundary conditions exist, we don't have to solve them and they won't cause problems. Humans must live together, and must arrive at compromises in order to do so.

      Thanks to viagra, it is "technically safe" for most 70 year old males to make babies with a harem of 13 year old girls. Still think the government has no business telling individuals how they may reproduce? Okay, so now we're discussing how much business it has.

      Gene therapy intrinsically present a worry because of the self-replicating nature of any unfortunate down-the-line problems that result. If there's a trivial way to zero that risk until it's quantified, why on earth NOT require it be taken, in the interest of protecting the general welfare?

    53. Re:Controversial? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      >Wow - that escalated quickly. I'd like bones that would resist osteoarthritis, and tendons/ligaments that would be stronger, ad you're going on a planet of the Apes scenario.

      Eat properly and move your body more than scratching your ass.

      Actually, I've had a long life of extreme amounts of activity. I wore myself out doing all the "Right things". I'd still be doing them if I could.

      May you live to be 120 years old, and enjoy my bodilty pain every day of your life.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    54. Re:Controversial? by mike.mondy · · Score: 1

      INCONCEIVABLE!!!

      I can't conceive of a man enjoying a chick flick though.

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    55. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't transfer your ignorance to us. We understand pretty decent chuck already and learn a lot more every day. Just because your an idiot doesn't mean the rest of us are.

    56. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What man doesn't enjoy flicking a chicks clit?

    57. Re:Controversial? by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      >The state has said nothing about three people being married by a church. That marriage just wouldn't have the legal benefits.

      This theory doesn't accord with actual laws on the books which practically make "married in church but not before the state" between three or more people illegal in many cases - laws like prohibiting cohabitation.

      In theory these laws were passed due to the extreme patriarchally one-sided nature of most polygamous religious cultures and the frequency with which they included marrying girls well below the age of consent, but in practice they are stopping things like polyamorous marriages (which have none of those issues) as well.

      Though the US is still less crazy there then South Africa, where the law actually allows polygamous marriages but *only* if you're from a culture that traditionally practiced it, in which case those marriages are legal and governed by the common-law system (which is not handled by the legislature but effectively determined by sitting judges in accordance with the cultural values at the time and constrained only by the constitution itself). That dual legal system was inheritted from the Dutch-Roman legal system but was expanded to include the traditional legal systems of African cultures as equal to the Dutch common law (even though their operation is different. African courts are judged by a council of elders and so have more in common with a jury trial than the Dutch single-judge model, and of course the jury-of-judges evaluating the evidence and witnesses are not legally trained, the chief is not a king and he cannot act alone, he basically acts as chief justice).
      So while that is very nicely multicultural and egalitarian it also makes the law quite confusing sometimes, and Indian Muslim can be polygamous but a Hindu or Christian cannot. Somebody born to a marriage between a Muslim and a Christian would by birth be subject to both Dutch and Muslim common law but in adulthood if they chose one religion would cease to be subject to the other.

      And of course, it leaves atheists and areligious concepts like polyamory out in the cold.

      The reality is unfortunately a lot more complicated than you describe it, a consequence of history that over the years had very different social norms surrounding hte concept of marriage which made their ways into laws.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    58. Re:Controversial? by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      >whether, in retrospect, the ethics concerns and regulations that pervade the field of medical genomics will come to be seen as stifling and detrimental.

      Maybe they will, when that happens, it would likely be the right time to relax them. If we had been more cautious when we discovered pencilin we could have had almost all the lives antibiotics saved still saved, without all the people now being killed by antibiotic resistant bacteria. Severe antibiotic resistant TB is a terrifying way to die.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    59. Re:Controversial? by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Fuck it, lets got full Kerbal and create a strain of Ophiocordyceps unilateralis that can infect humans and just get the damn zombie appocalypse over with already.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    60. Re:Controversial? by silentcoder · · Score: 2

      >Evolution is far far from perfect. Nothing wrong with tighening up a few parameters here and there.

      That's because you're mistaking evolution as something that happens to a species. It is much more accurate to say that evolution is something species do to each other and one of it's most IMPORTANT outcomes is to ensure that no species is ever perfect.
      Perfection is more guaranteed extinction than any flaw could be.

      The perfect predator goes extinct, because none of his prey survives to produce a next generation that can feed his babies.

      The perfect predator-evader also goes extinct, because nobody keeps his numbers down so very soon there are too many of them for the food supply to sustain.

      That applies at every level .Evolution doesn't happen in isolation, every living organism alive at any given moment is doing it to every other living organism and they all had it done to them already by every organism that ever lived before - yes even the ones who have no genetic descendents to day, because their very existence altered the genes of the ones who do have descendents today.

      You can't evolve to eat eggs until something evolves that lays eggs, When you do, you can't be *too* good at finding them or your children don't have food. Perfect creatures cannot survive because everything must coexist.
      Evolutionary history is generally divided into two types of events. Parochials are rare one-time events, this trait evolved in something somewhere and survived for a while, but nothing else has it who didn't inherit it from there. Feathers are a parochial, the birds got it from the dinosaurs but nothing else has feathers. There are no feathered mammals or feathered reptiles or feathered fish. Only in that one line did they ever evolve.. Universals happen over and over in different lineages with no shared ancestors that had the trait at different times and places, they happen because they universally benefit the species. Eyes are a universal, insects and fish and moluscs all evolved them independently (with very different designs) and passed them on to their young. Wings are a universal too - birds, insects and mammals (bats) all evolved them independently.

      And the extinction of perfection is a definite universal. In fact, even "near perfect" is doomed. There is a classic example: herbivores develop bigger horns and thicker, bony plates to make themselves harder to hunt. In turn predators developer bigger teeth to overcome these defenses. So the herbivores get even bigger armor. Repeat through a few evolutionary generations and you end up with herbivores covered in so much tank-like armor they can barely move and carnivores with teeth so gigantic they actually cannot close their mouths anymore. Both species promptly go extinct. This arms-race-to-mutual-destruction has happened in the known evolutionary record hundreds of times, to everything from insects and spiders up to dinosaurs and the giant mammals.
      Just being sufficiently better than your predators that you force them evolve a major change to keep up - can doom you both to extinction.

      It is only complete anthrocentric-arrogance that could make anybody think humans are immune to the process of evolution or that every other species is *not* still doing it to us. As it stands our biggest risk to survival probably is being almost too perfect at intelligence, luckily we got a fair number of stupid humans to balance that out a bit. We may not survive another too-perfect trait.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    61. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The decision to commit crimes such as murder is considered a moral decision. The state decides moral boundaries all the time. Deciding that this decision is beyond the state is arbitrary.

    62. Re:Controversial? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      As someone who suffers from a mitochondrial problem (not as bad as the ones you describe, fortunately) I'm hopeful that eventually we will find a way to fix these problems in adults too. Recently there was some promising research that involved rebuilding the immune system, by destroying it with chemotherapy and then allowing it to recover. When it rebuilds it returns to an un-broken state, which might suggest a way to fix mitochondria too.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    63. Re:Controversial? by hink · · Score: 1
      Oh yes, the British government is ALWAYS correct. (SARCASM)

      BTW, they only "allowed" it starting in February of 2015.

      Moral decisions that only affect YOU can be made by you. Moral decisions that affect others should at least be brought up with the involved parties. Moral decisions that can affect a species should be looked at by at least a representative sample of the population. In non-direct democracies (most of the civilized world), that kind of job usually is done by the existing government.

      --
      - speaking only for myself, as always
    64. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, this is risk management for a human test with possible huge long term consequences, not some hidden ingrained sexism.

    65. Re:Controversial? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I was going to mention all the federal arrests and issues in Utah before they decided to follow the federal laws, but you summed it up rather well with the description you gave.

      The state (federal government) absolutely interferes in proper religiously wed polygamists. I was going to bring up the show Sister Wives, but apparently, that family has brought a striking down of the anti polygamy laws in Utah recently...I had not heard that until I started looking for citations about the harassment they received, and came up with this link:

      http://www.ibtimes.com/utah-po...

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    66. Re:Controversial? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Antibiotics are great, until Bacteria evolve to be resistant to them. And while it hasn't happened yet, there are indications that an outbreak of resistant bacteria might wipe out large portions of humanity.

      Unintended consequences are unintended. And they often occur long after the root cause is forgotten.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    67. Re: Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sharks are perfect predators and are not in danger of going extinct. They have been around for 450 Million years.

      This reminds me of anti GMO freaks, anti vaxxers and global warming deniers.

    68. Re:Controversial? by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      The issue of designer babies is a moral question, not a scientific one

      It isn't just that. Its also quite possible to introduce artificial genetic diseases that are not fully understood for a few generations, and by then the change will have "gone wild" in the gene pool.

      Most of us software engineers wouldn't consider it wise to make a code change to a huge poorly-understood program of the "lets tweak this and see what happens" variety and then release it to production without any prior testing. They are just forbidding the genetic programming equivalent of that.

    69. Re:Controversial? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Perfection is more guaranteed extinction than any flaw could be.

      Your reply is nice, but I'm trying hard to parse it, because it doesn't make sense to me.

      So what you are saying is that if we tweak the calcium phosphate in humans to be a little more durable, humanity will go extinct?

      So tell me, let's say you have a genetic flaw like Huntingdon's You fear that gentic manipulation to avoid all of the fun you'll be going through as it kills you is bad? If not, what sort of genetic modification do you have in mind that will force extinction on humans?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    70. Re:Controversial? by nmr_andrew · · Score: 1

      Also, in this particular case, if the mother is the parent with the defective mitochondria, there's no reason that the good mitochondria need to come from a third party, they could just as easily come from the father.

    71. Re: Controversial? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Sharks are perfect predators and are not in danger of going extinct. They have been around for 450 Million years.

      This reminds me of anti GMO freaks, anti vaxxers and global warming deniers.

      Probably is, one of those short sighted people who believe that early humans were perfect, and all we've done since is mess ourselves up.

      A New Yorker cartoon says it best. http://www.damnedheretics.com/...

      Two cavemen sitting across from each other, and one says : "Something's just not right - our air is clean, our water is pure, we all get plenty of exercise, everything we eat is organic and free-range, and yet nobody lives past 30."

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    72. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, gender roles and stereotypes are social constructs. Now what about gender?

    73. Re: Controversial? by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      >Sharks are perfect predators and are not in danger of going extinct

      Beeeeppp wrong.
      Sharks are definitely not perfect predators, they are extremely good - but they are far from perfect. I've actually watched videos of a seal managing to win a battle for survival against a great white - swimming around him and dodging till the shark was too tired to continue pursuit. They do not always succeed.

      And the reason they are so good is because that's how good they need to be to survive at all, the ocean is bloody huge and meals are few and far between - to survive at all you need about a 99% success rate at hunting when you only get to hunt maybe once a week.

      And if anything this is the exact opposite of the anti-GMO crowd's arguments. Your ignorance of basic biology is the only reason you could possibly imagine a resemblance. It is however an argument for cautious approaches when tinkering with incredibly complex systems where even the tiniest change is GUARANTEED to have massive impacts. Evolution is both emergent and chaotic, we simply do not HAVE the mathematics to predict what changes will come out of ANYTHING we do. So we should be very careful because some of those knock-on effects WILL be bad for you.
      But that's not an argument against GMOs because guess what, those exact same risks to exactly the same degree applies to all forms of breeding and farming.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    74. Re:Controversial? by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      >Your reply is nice, but I'm trying hard to parse it, because it doesn't make sense to me.

      Genetic flaws happen, they occur to a rare few individuals, who rarely procreate, and they have limited impact on the species as whole.
      Perfection rapidly becomes dominant, and then prevents the forces of competition from keeping population growth in check - result the entire species goes extinct.

      >So what you are saying is that if we tweak the calcium phosphate in humans to be a little more durable, humanity will go extinct?
      Probably not. That's far too small a change to qualify as risky perfection.. But humans who are resistent to all diseases (our only remaining predator) and all live to be 200 but keep breeding at the rate we are ? That's definitely not a recipe for survival.

      >So tell me, let's say you have a genetic flaw like Huntingdon's
      Again I wasn't negating the horrors of flaws, I was merely indicating that they only affect individuals, actual perfection would doom the entire species. That's like saying "So you oppose nuclear weapons, you must be perfectly okay with gunshot victims then".

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    75. Re:Controversial? by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure about bill, but your level of stupidity does not come natural. Genetic engineering, or just a lot of practice?

    76. Re:Controversial? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      >Your reply is nice, but I'm trying hard to parse it, because it doesn't make sense to me.

      Genetic flaws happen, they occur to a rare few individuals, who rarely procreate, and they have limited impact on the species as whole.

      We aren't eve talking about the same thing - But you are still wrong.

      Perfection rapidly becomes dominant, and then prevents the forces of competition from keeping population growth in check - result the entire species goes extinct.

      ANd here is why you are wrong. There is no such thing as perfection. If you look at the vagus nerve for example, in humans and mammals it is a mess. It was adapted from a gill structure, and does loops and turns in teh body to get to the throat. It's one of the many defects we have.

      Survial is the metric, not perfection. Your ideas read like a strange cross between creationism and Darwinism.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    77. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, moral decisions should be made by individuals. The government should have no say in my moral decision on whether or not I should kill you. I should be allowed to decide if it is my moral obligation to society to eliminate people of inferior intellect!

      Captcha: cloned

    78. Re:Controversial? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      What you mean is that genetic choice should be made by individuals [..] rather than by governments, in which case it's called eugenics.

      you've obviously not studied the history of eugenics, which was originally precisely an encouragement of individuals to breed more offspring with (it was hoped) good ("eu-") genes ("-genic").

      Look up Francis Galton, the main founder of the movement.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    79. Re:Controversial? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      And while it [antibiotic-resistant bacteria] hasn't happened yet,

      You need to be much more careful about how you say this. There isn't an antibiotic in use today to which there aren't some resistant bacteria somewhere. (There's an outbreak of resistant bacteria to the newest family of antibiotics - the ones that replace methicillins and vancomycins - in China at the moment.) What hasn't happened yet is that one bacterial strain has been resistant to all known antibiotics, and found in the wild. Yet.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    80. Re:Controversial? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      When a government espouses a particular type of genome as being the ideal and encourages or forces people to make their genetic choices toward that ideal, it's eugenics. When people make p their own minds about who to mate with, its just genetic choice.

    81. Re:Controversial? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      You are precisely wrong. You are conflating the fact that the German Nazi government promoted eugenics with the idea that the meaning of "eugenics" changed meaning at that time. Regardless of who chooses to do it or why (or even how), deliberately trying to change breeding habits to people to bring about a desired change in genetics is eugenics.

      (Incidentally, at that time eugenics was very popular with other governments too. this was the era when the US and UK governments forcibly sterilised thousands of people in insane asylums, and for offences such as being poor. The testing of immigrants for IQ at Ellis Island was part of this move too.)

      I'll expand on that "how" : there are two ways you can produce a change in gene frequencies in a population - you can cull some genes from the population (by sterilisation, or by murder - same outcome) OR you can try to persuade particular "desirable" groups to have more children - which is what Galton proposed in the 1870s and onwards, and deranged idiots like the "Quiverful" movement and the Catholic Church are continuing with to this day.

      If you were a farmer, or a dog breeder, you too would be practising eugenics on the populations you control, though the term isn't generally used for non-human animals.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    82. Re:Controversial? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      I don't see how this differs in any way from what I said. Yes, eugenics was such a worldwide fad early in the twentieth century, like carbon warming today, that Nazism sneaked up on the world because it was just a more authoritarian, ethnospecific version of policies that most other countries already had at the time.

      Or are you arguing that people should have the right to choose, as individuals, who they mate with?

    83. Re:Controversial? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      You seemed to be trying to make a point the eugenics is only eugenics if it's carried out by government-level groups, and if it's carried out by individuals, then it's something else. That is not how the term was defined when it was invented by Galton, and since he invented the term and publicised it in the scientific literature, he got to define what it meant.

      People do, at the moment, in most of the world, have some degree of choice over who they mate with and whether they have children. Of course, neither of those are absolute freedoms - in much of the world (but not all), the consent of both people is required ; in significant parts of the world, the right to access contraception is severely restricted, if not flat out illegal ; personally, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see those freedoms further restricted as the right-wing continue their rise to ascendency into the next major war.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    84. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gender is a social construct ;)

      Well it is; at least all that pink-is-for-girls, blue-is-for-boys rubbish is. People who are biologically male can wear high heels and enjoy chick flicks, but they can't pass on mitochondrial DNA, which is the relevant point here.

      Which would rather be the point. Don't say "gender" (social identity) when "sex" (physical trait) is the correct term.

    85. Re:Controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here ya go http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3996

  4. Mitochindria - just mitochondria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And what about any possible interactions of modified mitochondria with the DNA/RNA of the parent cell?
    IANAG ( I Am Not A Genius/Genetecist/Gendarme ), but there is a profusion of interactions between all cell components.
    And are these understood well enough to be SURE of fixing things, on a permanent basis?

    1. Re:Mitochindria - just mitochondria by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      And are these understood well enough to be SURE of fixing things, on a permanent basis?

      Yes

      This is the cellular equivalent of an organ transplant, without the associated risks of organ rejections. Mitocondria have their own DNA separate from the Nuclear DNA. It is inherited only from the mother. In the case of a surrogate pregnancy the child is technically the offspring of all 3 parents (half of nuclear DNA from father, half of nuclear DNA from mother, and mitochondrial DNA from surrogate). All they are talking about is taking the mitochondria from someone who has no mitochondrial associated inherited disorders and substituting it for the mitochondria from a mother with a known mitochondrial associated inherited disorder. No genes are being modified (although even then the answer would still be "Yes"), they are simply moving one organelle from one cell to another cell and letting the normal cellular machinery do what it is supposed to.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    2. Re:Mitochindria - just mitochondria by Coren22 · · Score: 2

      and mitochondrial DNA from surrogate

      It depends.

      Not all surrogate pregnancies work that way. A Surrogate could just be someone carrying the baby for a couple where the female has various issues preventing carrying a baby to term.

      http://www.webmd.com/infertili...

      According to that article in fact, you are completely wrong. I have however heard of what you are speaking of, I just don't recall what it is called, but apparently it isn't surrogacy. What you speak of is the current therapy for mitochondrial disorders where they use a viable egg from someone else where the DNA is removed and the DNA from the desired mother is injected instead.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    3. Re:Mitochindria - just mitochondria by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      You are correct. I was confusing it with Cytoplasmic Transfer, a different procedure for dealing with infertility. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazi...

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
  5. Passing on mitochondrial DNA by gringer · · Score: 2

    Males can't pass along the mitochondrial DNA that is altered in the procedure

    Well, they can, it's just that sperm mitochondria usually get swamped out by egg mitochondria.

    --
    Ask me about repetitive DNA
    1. Re:Passing on mitochondrial DNA by gcnaddict · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that all (not most) mitochondria in sperm are lost when the tail is lost. Is that not correct?

      My understanding could be wrong. Let's call it a teaching moment.

      --
      Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
    2. Re:Passing on mitochondrial DNA by tnk1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You are correct. Sperm have all of their mitochondria located by the flagellum, not spread throughout the cytoplasm of the main body, which makes sense due to the fact that the real energy expenditure in a sperm cell is going to be movement.

      The mitochondria and flagellum are left behind as a distinct unit when the main body merges with the egg. So, there are no male mitochondria in the resulting fertilized egg. There could be some sort of odd condition that allows something like the sperm mitochondria to make it inside the egg, but if that happens it is not the rule, and probably means that something is wrong.

      That is why you will only inherit mitochondria via the female line, which has had an interesting ability to aid in tracing human migrations through history.

    3. Re:Passing on mitochondrial DNA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are incorrect:

      https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2716-mitochondria-can-be-inherited-from-both-parents
      http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v93/n4/full/6800572a.html
      http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v352/n6332/abs/352255a0.html

      Not only has it be theoretically hypothesized, it has been detected in mice, AND proven in humans

    4. Re:Passing on mitochondrial DNA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      False:

      https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2716-mitochondria-can-be-inherited-from-both-parents
      http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v93/n4/full/6800572a.html
      http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v352/n6332/abs/352255a0.html

  6. What shall we name them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Name the first one Kahn. Easy enough.

  7. This Is The Right Question/Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every time we are sure about some improvement or another by way of genetically modifying a species, either through DNA manipulation or good old fashioned breeding, or introducing a new species to control a pest we find out some years later that we were completely wrong in our assumptions and that we created a bigger problem.

    To use the old Jurassic Park quote: "but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

    The controversy is about making sure that we really contemplate and account for every possibility BEFORE we create a generation of really fucked up people.

    I think I've seen Jurassic Park enough times that I've accounted for every contingency when genetically modifying/reproducing dinosaurs though. We should totally go ahead with that.

    1. Re:This Is The Right Question/Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every time we are sure about some improvement or another by way of genetically modifying a species, either through DNA manipulation or good old fashioned breeding, or introducing a new species to control a pest we find out some years later that we were completely wrong in our assumptions and that we created a bigger problem.

      If we removed the result of that old fashioned breeding hundreds of million people would starve to death.
      You'd better come up with a better argument than "Jurassic Park said it so it must be true!" to convince anyone because to me it sounds a lot like "Organic is natural, therefore it must be healthy!"

    2. Re:This Is The Right Question/Answer by Rei · · Score: 1

      Meh, I've got a small descendant of a coelurosaurian theropod standing next to me - he's not so tough.

      (Actually, I take that back - an elephant-sized predatory variant of him would be terrifying)

      --
      It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
    3. Re:This Is The Right Question/Answer by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Meh, I've got a small descendant of a coelurosaurian theropod standing next to me - he's not so tough.

      (Actually, I take that back - an elephant-sized predatory variant of him would be terrifying)

      Then again, Ostriches might look goofy, but you do not want to get kicked by one.

      Complately aside, but I was once bit by an emu.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    4. Re:This Is The Right Question/Answer by Rei · · Score: 1

      Birds are often underrated. Cassowaries, for example, can be deadly - they attack sort of like a Deinonychus, with one "weapon claw" designed for slashing while they jump.

      The old-school "lizardlike" T-rex of Jurassic Park fame hardly seems frightening at all when you compare it to what it would be like if they had given it an amazon parrot's threat display. When they get hormonal - such as when you give them a treat or mess with their "home" - they literally pulse their eyes. The pupil gets huge, then shrinks to a pinpoint, again and again, flashing orange / black / orange / black... Meanwhile they crouch low and move in rigid movements, all of their feathers flared out in a fan, held tightly rigid. And they bite as hard as they can onto whatever is nearby - even inanmiate objects, they just feel compelled to bite something and clamp down with all their strength. They're so overcome by hormones that if, say, it was a treat that triggered the display, they may well destroy or lose it in the process and not even care.

      Now picture that being done by a tyrannosaur. Plate-sized predator eyes pulsing hypnotically while they lock their vision onto you, body low, moving ridgid, giant feathers radiating out, and so enraged that it can't help but take massive snaps at whatever trees happen to be nearby... while never averting its gaze from you.

      A Jurassic Park-style "rear back and roar" is one thing. But a creature so mad with hormones that it goes, "SEE WHAT I'M DOING WITH THIS TREE? THAT'S GOING TO BE YOU, MOTHERF'ER!" is a whole different story.

      Birds are usually only non-threatening to us because they're small. But if they were huge, they'd be like monsters.

      --
      It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
    5. Re:This Is The Right Question/Answer by Rei · · Score: 1

      Oh, by the way, related to your story: Johnny Cash was once nearly killed by an ostrich. ;)

      --
      It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
    6. Re:This Is The Right Question/Answer by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      Birds are usually only non-threatening to us because they're small. But if they were huge, they'd be like monsters.

      Along those lines, here's an interesting NatGeo article.

      http://news.nationalgeographic...

      Put feathers on most dinosaurs, and suddenly they look kinda pretty.I'm certain the artist took some liberty with the colors, but that's an intriguing painting.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    7. Re:This Is The Right Question/Answer by Rei · · Score: 1

      I love how we not only know that velociraptor had feathers, but exactly for example that it had on each arm exactly 14 secondary wing feathers of modern style (with rachis and barbs). We know pretty much everything except for what the color patterning was and how they actually used them ;)

      --
      It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
    8. Re:This Is The Right Question/Answer by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      I'm certain the artist took some liberty with the colors, but that's an intriguing painting.

      Black and brown, in various intensities? I don't see any liberties there. Those are the colours that were inferred in the first melanocyte-mapping papers from ... it was about 2005, wasn't it?

      The descendants of the dinosaurs - birds, see signature - have a wide range of colours available. The other descendants of the ancestors of dinosaurs (mammals and the paraphyletic bucket called "reptiles") also have a wide range of colours available. An argument called a "phylogenetic bracket" suggests that the dinosaurs also had a similarly wide palette available.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  8. MRAs ASSEMBLE! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

    They want to do their eugenics biological experimentation on men only. It's a feminazi plot. Tuskegee all over again.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  9. Re:So triggered right now by ewibble · · Score: 2

    depends on perspective, it could be considered anti male performing genetic experiments on only males.

    SMASH THE MATRIARCHY 8-).

  10. Sexist Government!!! by kwiecmmm · · Score: 1

    It is obvious that the female run government is just trying to replace us men with better genetic specimens.

    If these women weren't so shallow this would never be happening.

  11. Mitochondria live within us. by gawdonblue · · Score: 5, Funny

    Since TFS didn't explain what "mitochondria" are, I had to look them up myself and found a documentary about them. One scientist explains them as:

    Mitochondria are a microscopic lifeforms that reside within all living cells. And we are symbions with them. Without the mitochondrians life could not exist and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us telling us the will of the Force.

    I hope this helps.

    1. Re: Mitochondria live within us. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder what my mitochondrian count is?

    2. Re:Mitochondria live within us. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell.

    3. Re: Mitochondria live within us. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you know your cell count?

  12. Must start with male by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  13. The summary seems good on this one. by TimSSG · · Score: 1

    I would just like to say the summary seemed good to me; like most /. posters I did NOT read the article. Tim S.

  14. Good to restrict to males only by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    Mitochondrial DNA (actually more like mRNA) only passes to children from the mother's DNA contribution. So if a male has it altered, they can't pass it on to kids.

    That said, it's not quite as straightforward as you might think. Chromosomal abnormalities could, theoretically, allow the sequences to pass from fathers, but most or all of the maternal mitochondrial sequences would have to not transcribe and some bizarre stuff would have to happen.

    If you were going to Mars, the exposure to radiation, or some Fantastic Four coronal event might do this, but it's fairly safe to do this on males only, as a biological precaution.

    A long time ago we absorbed these buggers to power our cells, and misfires are one reason to force mitochondrial replacement periodically (what is often referred to a calorie restricted diet, or fasting 10-24 days with water and minerals and broth), as damaged mitochondria build up inside your cells.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  15. Life finds a way! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkWeMvrNiOM

  16. Are they altering individual haploid cells, then? by dtmancom · · Score: 1

    If the eggs of a human female are all produced before the female is even born, won't they already contain all the original mitochondria they will ever contain, and further altering of mitochondria elsewhere in the woman's body will do absolutely nothing to the "future generations?" I don't remember any process by which mitochondria are passed through the cell membrane.

    Unless TFA already addressed that. Not like I actually read it.