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An Advanced Math Education Revolution Is Underway In the U.S. (theatlantic.com)

AthanasiusKircher writes: The Atlantic has an >extended article on the recent surge in advanced math education at the primary and secondary levels in the U.S., arguing that last year's victory for the U.S. in the Math Olympiad was not a random anomaly. Participation in math camps, after-school or weekend math "academies," and math competitions has surged in recent years, with many programs having long wait lists. Inessa Rifkin, co-founder of one of these math academies, argues that the problems with math education begin in the 2nd and 3rd grades: ""The youngest ones, very naturally, their minds see math differently.... It is common that they can ask simple questions and then, in the next minute, a very complicated one. But if the teacher doesn't know enough mathematics, she will answer the simple question and shut down the other, more difficult one." These alternative math programs put a greater focus on problem-solving: "Unlike most math classes, where teachers struggle to impart knowledge to students—who must passively absorb it and then regurgitate it on a test—problem-solving classes demand that the pupils execute the cognitive bench press: investigating, conjecturing, predicting, analyzing, and finally verifying their own mathematical strategy. The point is not to accurately execute algorithms, although there is, of course, a right answer... Truly thinking the problem through—creatively applying what you know about math and puzzling out possible solutions—is more important."

The article concludes by noting that programs like No Child Left Behind have focused on minimal standards, rather than enrichment activities for advanced students. The result is a disparity in economic backgrounds for students in pricey math activities; many middle-class Americans investigate summer camps or sports programs for younger kids, but they don't realize how important a math program could be for a curious child. As Daniel Zaharopol, founder of a related non-profit initiative, noted in his searches to recruit low-income students: "Actually doing math should bring them joy."

218 comments

  1. Math is fine! by EzInKy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    But will it get you a job? Only employers know what it is important to know.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    1. Re:Math is fine! by FreeUser · · Score: 1

      But will it get you a job? Only employers know what it is important to know.

      Remember, consumer: 2 + 2 = 5

      You'll do fine around here.

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    2. Re:Math is fine! by ntipouan · · Score: 1

      What kind of maths do you have in mind? You don't need to know topology or ordinary differential equations to be a successful salesman or a cashier at some store, or to run a business. But you need to be able to understand a bar chart, able to do some simple statistics yourself, and be smart enough to avoid being fooled by your competitors.

      Certain jobs need considerable amount of mathematical knowledge, but I guess you didn't have in mind jobs as engineers in Google/DWave or Mathematics/Physics researchers in Academia.

      --
      deltaS>=0 (c.s.)
    3. Re:Math is fine! by Dareth · · Score: 1

      I often said that if you use them round fat bottom two's, it should be approximately equal to 5.

      --

      I only look human.
      My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
    4. Re:Math is fine! by Forgefather · · Score: 2

      Based on surveys conducted on graduated seniors at my University math majors were some of the most highly paid degrees in the entire place with starting salaries a year out in the six figures range. Most of them were people with advanced degrees in statistics and were employed creating models for investment on wall street.

      --
      "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"
    5. Re:Math is fine! by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      All you need to know to be a cashier is that $1 minus 73 cents means the customer gets 27 cents in change. All knowing anything above that increases the risk of management being hauled in for tax fraud.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    6. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some people make their own jobs.

    7. Re:Math is fine! by EzInKy · · Score: 2

      Yes a very, very few do. And it would be wonderful if anyone could take from the commons and profit by adding value to what nature has provided. Unfortunately the one percent have laid claim to anything that should be available to be had for free. Such is life!

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    8. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All you need to know to be a cashier is that $1 minus 73 cents means the customer gets 27 cents in change. All knowing anything above that increases the risk of management being hauled in for tax fraud.

      All you need to know to be a cashier is how to push the 'triple hamburger' button, and the 'mega size' option on the fries and diet soda. The cash register will take the money and dispense change, if required.

    9. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All you need to know to be a cashier is that $1 minus 73 cents means the customer gets 27 cents in change. All knowing anything above that increases the risk of management being hauled in for tax fraud.

      I have been standing at registers where the cashier was thinking way to hard on how to return 27 cents in change. So, yes, math would be good even for them. Of course it could be the fault of common core that takes the kids into a huge detour to figure out simple results.

    10. Re:Math is fine! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      Well, it's a long term gripe that society as a whole would be much better served devoting to intellectually elite student's education just a fraction of the money spent making sure every last clown can calculate change by the time they graduate.

      But you know, political memes and "them elites don't need it! >:-( "

      And that was before all this privledge meme shit hit the fan. Try it today.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    11. Re:Math is fine! by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      Well yeah, all the money is in analytics. Google, IBM, Political Science, basically anything involving statistics and analytics is going to be future-proof as far as jobs are concerned. It's one thing to crunch the data, but it's quite another to understand it well enough to do modeling.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    12. Re:Math is fine! by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Of course it could be the fault of common core that takes the kids into a huge detour to figure out simple results.

      Funny. I thought New Math in the 1960's got the blame for kids not being able to make change. Now get off my lawn!

    13. Re:Math is fine! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I was once, after a long day at work, trying to buy a loaf of bread and a can of spaghetti when there was some kind of fault with the register. The cashier wouldn't sell it to me. I told him the amount (IIRC, you didn't even need to carry anything), put the right money down and walked off with my dinner.

      "You can't do that ... I'll call the police!" he yelled after me, to general amusement.

      Oh, one other thing: that's arithmetic, not mathematics.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    14. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      last year's victory for the U.S.

      Half of last year's team were Chinese.

      This is like saying the U.S. is good at basketball.

    15. Re:Math is fine! by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 1

      But will it get you a job?

      If you plan to move to India and work for peanuts, you may have a chance.

      --
      Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    16. Re:Math is fine! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Jobs are a complex economic concept. You don't get a job because *you* are useful; you get a job because the economy needs you to produce something. Failing to understand this has lead to things like the public push for state-supported college, although that's got its major roots in other misunderstandings.

      The main driver of employment--and unemployment--is efficiency. Each time you increase efficiency, you *lose* some employment. Given time, market pressures move prices toward costs, which are lower because employment time (labor time, and thus wage) invested into the production of some goods is lower. That leaves buying power (as currency) in consumer pockets, and the consumers purchase more stuff; this requires more production, thus more labor, restoring the lost jobs. The speed of turn-over controls the stable unemployment rate.

      Inefficient economic systems lose jobs. College--workforce development mislabeled as "education" (while we ignore K-12 primary education!)--is actually a good example. Our plan is to get everyone through college, make them trained for a particular job. In the process, we waste a lot of labor time... well, training people. The faculty and staff running the college spend their time carrying out this workforce development, which we pay for via tax money (free college) or debt money (college tuition loans). It's wasted because we train so many workers as to create career unemployment: some of us go to get a job and constantly have 20, 50, or even 3,000 other applicants trying to get the same position; we don't all get hired.

      That wasted labor costs money (tax, debt) and labor. The money is diverted to the labor, and invokes the broken window fallacy: sure, college staff get paid; but that's a lot of labor devoted to making engineers who can only work at McDonalds, when they could have done that *without* training as engineers. Were the money not tied up in tuition, it could buy other products, which would invoke employment making those products. Overall, we don't need as many McDonalds workers as we'd need people making these other products if we could buy them instead of college, so we lose some employment for no real gain in the process.

      The alternate strategy is to let the market find labor shortages and fix them. Businesses will send their employees to college, and then whine because employees are "valuable" and they have to pay appropriate salaries and benefits. Businesses don't want to invest their time and money into building employees. The businesses can more accurately identify what kind of laborers *they* need than any arbitrary student can speculate on the job market (even high-level speculators aren't as good at trading stocks as insider traders, so why would you leave job market speculation up to anyone *but* insider traders?), but they don't want to look like they have a need; often, when I bring this up, people tell me businesses will just not hire people and take even *more* profit, as if jobs are essentially charity.

      That said, education *is* technology. If we can teach high-level statistics to high school students, we don't need to spend that time teaching them in college. If we can improve educational strategies and classroom management to maximize academic success, we can reduce the time spent in remedial education (summer school, special education) correcting deficiencies in our education system. If we provide generally-useful education and academic skills, our workers become more functional in their careers and can perform more efficiently.

      Improving education leads to a more wealthy society. We haven't figured this out yet, and have mislabeled workforce development as education.

    17. Re:Math is fine! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Dude, topology is bullshit. Closed does not imply not open? I don't even or odd. How is closed not the opposite of open!?

    18. Re:Math is fine! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 0

      What happens when we make 47% of the population math majors instead of computer programmers? When literally every other human you talk to can take up high-level data analysis?

    19. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've studied topology. True, it doesn't directly help me in my job, but it taught me to handle complexity.

      I've had users give me program requirements like, "First you do A, then do B. If you see C, do D, but if you see E instead, do F. Oh, I'm probably confusing you!"

      To which I always smile and reply, "I'm following you just fine." Meanwhile, I'm thinking, "This is nothing compared to the Baire Category Theorem."

    20. Re:Math is fine! by tnk1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He had a point. The register isn't for math, it is for *accounting*. He has to true up his drawer against the receipts for that shift. One loaf of bread isn't going to be a huge issue, but if loaves start walking out the door and the cameras pick up the cashier taking cash and not entering it, it is possible that the cashier gets in trouble at least for failing to account for things.

      Worse, if someone actually is stealing those loaves or cans of spaghetti (low amounts of shoplifting are common in stores) and the cashier is seen taking money for those things which is not accounted for, they assume he or she is running a side business and pocketing the cash.

      So yeah, he's probably not going to jail, but you were not entirely in the right there.

    21. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, one other thing: that's arithmetic, not mathematics.

      Actual, arithmetic is a branch of mathematics.

    22. Re:Math is fine! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I have been standing at registers where the cashier was thinking way to hard on how to return 27 cents in change. So, yes, math would be good even for them.

      English might help too.

      Of course it could be the fault of common core that takes the kids into a huge detour to figure out simple results.

      Unlikely. Common core is a set of standards defining what they should be able to do, not a set of methods defining how.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    23. Re:Math is fine! by Bengie · · Score: 2

      Businesses will send their employees to college

      No business will send their workers to college, they'll send them to a tech school for specific classes or to training seminars. None of which are a replacement for a good education. Technical knowledge expires quickly, education lasts a lifetime.

    24. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TIL: I'm in the one percent. Thank bro.

    25. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been standing at registers where the cashier was thinking way to hard on how to return 27 cents in change. So, yes, math would be good even for them.

      English might help too.

      My English skills (second language) is not making maths hard for others. Sorry to disappoint.

      Of course it could be the fault of common core that takes the kids into a huge detour to figure out simple results.

      Unlikely. Common core is a set of standards defining what they should be able to do, not a set of methods defining how.

      Disagree, but doesn't matter. But as someone else pointed out, probably not common core. Still too new.

    26. Re:Math is fine! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Right, because it's totally impossible to write it down on paper (like in the olden days, and like some small shops do even now) then ring it up later.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    27. Re:Math is fine! by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Did you suggest that to him? Or did you just get mad because he made you wait because his register didn't work and you only had two items and tell him to get bent?

    28. Re:Math is fine! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Disagree, but doesn't matter.

      It totally does matter, because you're just plain wrong. The full title is "Common core state standards initiative". They aren't talking about heraldic flags there.

      Straight from the horse's mouth. Not Fox. Not Vacccinesmakeyoucommunistandgay.org.
      http://www.corestandards.org/a...

      Scroll down to "Myths About Implementation".

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    29. Re:Math is fine! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Technical knowledge expires quickly, education lasts a lifetime.

      I remember all my chemistry from college. All my math, too. Those history classes really changed my life.

      Wait, no they didn't.

      Even if I remembered all of this, it wouldn't be much use. What's of use is what's used in my other knowledge areas, the active ones. Engineer? You'll remember your math. Chemist? You're going to remember some chemistry. Computer programmer? I bet you've forgotten your history and physics.

      No, that "education lasts a lifetime" thing is a platitude. You haven't suggested what education *does* for you, what it provides, how it strengthens the individual, much less the economy in aggregate. That last point is important: taxing the economy with dead weight means that maybe you, as an individual, have benefited from the effort that's dragging us down, but you've benefited over a lowered baseline. In other words: Rather than having what might equate to $100,000, you have $80,000, *and* part of that $80,000 is only available to you because of your education (or other dead-weight factor).

      Businesses will find the most efficient way to reduce costs. They'll then find they can make a smart phone for $150, while Motorola makes the same one for $220 and sells it for $600. Then they'll sell their smart phone for $190 and Motorola will sell theirs for $250, and then fade into irrelevance as Americans decide they don't care for overpriced junk.

      If giving you a lifetime continuous education in your ever-changing field minimizes their expenses and maximizes your productive output, they'll do that. If padding that education with supporting skills minimizes their expenses, they'll do that instead. Riddle me this, though: Why do you need to learn history or biology if you're never going to use that stuff? Why not learn paralegal, since everyone can use the ability to wiggle their way out of a frivolous lawsuit?

      Fix the K-12 education system. College gen-ed is a waste. It's a good political sell, as evidenced by your complete lack of a solid argument and your romantic, starry-eyed recitation of a glowing platitude as a substitute for careful thought and reflection.

    30. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Math will get you a job - indirectly. All those engineering jobs needs some math - you don't usually get into the university without that math, you certainly don't get the diploma you need to be hired as engineer. So yes, math gets you some jobs.

    31. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that "education lasts a lifetime" thing is a platitude. You haven't suggested what education *does* for you,

      Proper education teach you to solve problems. So "new standards/products/procedures/practices" won't be a problem throughout your career. A training seminar will be tied to a specific product - so you may learn to use wordperfect like a pro. A skill that evaporate when wordperfect goes out of style . . .

    32. Re:Math is fine! by Forgefather · · Score: 1

      No one is suggesting this is case. Quite clearly I was stating that mathematics is a viable career choice from a pay perspective in the current market. Furthermore do you suggest that improvement in High School math programs will flood the market for professional statisticians? True mathematical modeling is complex stuff that isn't taught in High School. No one is coming to terk yer jerb.

      --
      "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"
    33. Re:Math is fine! by ze_foster · · Score: 2

      I loved math until the 3rd grade (c. 1973); and between 3rd and 12th grades, I was a math failure. When I hit the age of 21, I decided to go to college, and that meant starting from scratch with remedial math at the local junior college, and the plan was to transfer to a 4-year university after that. Remedial math was wonderful: I had an instructor (Dr. Baum) who would keep explaining things until I could understood. This was very different from gradeschool where instructors would keep repeating the same thing that I didn't understand, but say it a bit louder each time they repeated it (as if that was supposed to help me understand). Five years later I was in my senior year after my transfer to UC Berkeley. I was an EECS major, and I had completed the Calculus (for engineers) and Math Analysis, and I was sailing toward my EECS degree. I decided to take a trip back to my original jr college, and look up Dr. Baum. To my extreme disappointment and sadness, I found out Dr. Baum had died. He never knew the door he had opened for me. Here we are, 30 years into my EECS career (more of a CS career, as it turns out; but I get to beat up on oscilloscopes and logic analysers once in a while), and it has been a lot of fun. Dr. Baum proved that it can come down to EXACTLY ONE instructor who reaches a student's mind, and without excellent instructors, we easily lose minds that could otherwise have been STEM participants. More's the pity. WE NEED MORE MATH TEACHER that aren't crappy.

    34. Re:Math is fine! by khallow · · Score: 1

      It's the business's job to prepare for outages not the customer's job.

    35. Re:Math is fine! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The OP said only employers know, and this turned into University math majors being highly-paid, and so forth.

      From the suggestion that only employers know the precise details of the job market (insider speculation), we can conjecture (fairly accurately) that increasing the production of math majors is likely to produce oversupply unless the employers are responsible for controlling the increase *and* have a stake in that increase (that is: if they have to pay for it, and so are inclined not to produce too many in excess). A segue into the virtues of obtaining a math degree without that context suggests people should independently seek math degrees, which starts to lean toward oversupply.

      Remember: people read into what you say, and ignore what you omit. When you omit details like that, you make more complex arguments than just the words you put down. In the context of North America and most of Europe, people believe increasing college attendance and decoupling that attendance from employment (and from the responsibility of employers) gives people freedom and wealth, and so will read into it as such. That's why you get ridiculous arguments for funding more STEM degrees so more people can get good jobs when our current STEM degree holders can't find jobs.

      The political farce surrounding the workforce development system built around college is a sore spot for me. In truth, it's just that people blindly repeat dogmatic axioms like "access to college promotes equality and gives minorities upwards mobility" without actually understanding how the economics work. They look at developed countries--countries which have been growing in wealth and creating a demand for a skilled workforce--and see more of the workforce going into skilled employment, and conclude that this is happening because of college, and not that the economic growth has lead to a larger workforce development institution and broader employment in skilled labor. They ignore all confounding variables and just make the simple conclusion. In this case, the simple conclusion is actually so backwards as to be harmful to society, putting people into effective serfdom and creating more poverty. I have a cringe reaction to people being so bluntly wrong about things, and this one gets stepped on *all* *the* *time*, so I'm sensitive.

    36. Re:Math is fine! by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      What do you call education that doesn't teach you to solve problems even one little bit? That just teaches you how much of a victim you are and that all problems are someone else's fault?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    37. Re:Math is fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember the math department at the my grad school had trouble retaining students, in part because there was some overlap between their research specialties and what employers in the financial industry wanted. Students would only get a year or two into the program before finally being tempted out by money. This spilled over into the physical sciences, where I knew nearly a dozen friends from my undergrad university that dropped out of physical science grad school for a job in the finance industry. At one point, there was a flyer put up in the math department that some company was going to hire freshly graduated math degrees with no finance background for a $90k probation salary and then a big jump if they do well after the first year of learning the job specific math. A lot of that finance hiring has calmed down, but that just means I now see people with heavy math backgrounds going into a more diverse industries at only a slight reduction in pay.

    38. Re:Math is fine! by Bengie · · Score: 1

      I've forgotten a lot of facts, but I remember the ideas. History is very important for political reasons. Many times politicians try to do the same thing under a different guise. Any good history course will give you many examples of these. I had to re-take history several times for some personal reasons, and every teacher taught history as a critical thinking course and did a lot of analysis and gave proper social context. A poor history class would just teach you a bunch of facts.

      Same thing goes for sciences. I may not remember the math behind how humans perceive different colors, but I do remember that perception is a very complex topic and if I was to go into marketing, I would make apply due diligence to researching appropriate perception related issues.

      Facts can be forgotten or become no longer valid, but concepts are eternal.

    39. Re:Math is fine! by Forgefather · · Score: 1

      You are right and I am sorry for the underhanded jab in my previous post. However I feel that the hyperbole has started to go in the other direction concerning the job markets in STEM as of late. Math has been a core subject in schools for hundreds of years and has been miserable for everyone involved, at least in recent history. Despite being a core subject I don't believe there has ever been a time when there is a glut of skilled mathematicians and scientists which I would wager is mostly due to preference in the job market. Kids just rarely grow up wanting to solve complex equations.

      There are other barriers to working in STEM than just a better high school education. Similar to other highly skilled positions such as medicine and law, engineering requires a lot of schooling, and a degree can be quite expensive. Cost has proven to be an effective barrier that keeps fields highly paid, but also has the detriment of ensuring that jobs remain in demand.

      --
      "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"
    40. Re:Math is fine! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      History is very important for political reasons.

      I vaguely cite historical economics--right back to hunter-gatherers, feudalism, the Industrial Revolution, and the like--when discussing economics. I don't work from modern or classical economic theories; those theories are all wrong, in the same fashion that any established theory is always wrong. I've made better ones which more completely explain the same factors, and most of the existing behaviors in the established theory fall under my explanations.

      It is useful for a lot of reasons.

      every teacher taught history as a critical thinking course and did a lot of analysis and gave proper social context. A poor history class would just teach you a bunch of facts.

      You can't understand socio-political-economic context without the facts behind that context. How can you understand the context of the Industrial Revolution without understanding that skilled workers were a sort of middle-class, and that the powered machines created around 80% unemployment even as far as 60 years out? You may think you understand all that, and then what? Side with the Luddites, and recognize the modern threat of automation? This leads you to miss something critical: we're *always* reducing jobs, just like the Industrial Revolution; and we create new jobs at the same time. Faster, and you raise unemployment; more slowly and you lower it.

      Facts can be forgotten or become no longer valid, but concepts are eternal.

      A hit-or-miss system in which you invest years of effort at high costs to instill something one can learn in a half hour is a waste of money. We should work on teaching methods of thinking.

    41. Re:Math is fine! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      However I feel that the hyperbole has started to go in the other direction concerning the job markets in STEM as of late.

      That's irrelevant to my point. People see a societal provision for independent access to college as a freedom: it grants you choice. You can choose to go to college, to become a doctor, to become a programmer, to become an accountant. I tend to describe it as the Prisonner's Dilemma: having the choice *necessarily* means you will face a less-optimal outcome, and your *best* individual choice is the one that overall produces the *least-optimal* outcome for everyone affected.

      It's like if the government gave everyone free food laced with opiates, and put a high tax on non-opiated food. Now you can get food, but you'll have the severe health issues of long-term opium addiction; you can get non-opiated food, if you're rich as living fuck. Nobody wants the government to take away their access to food.

    42. Re:Math is fine! by Forgefather · · Score: 1

      You've started to lose me with you analogy. The government encouraging people to choose career paths that earn money doesn't really smack of a prisoner's dilemma. In all honesty if you go to college in today's world without planning on getting a degree that earns you money then you are wasting your time and money.

      --
      "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"
    43. Re:Math is fine! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It's not encouraging. You don't have the option to opt out. If you don't go to college, the deck is instantly stacked against you.

      if you go to college in today's world without planning on getting a degree that earns you money then you are wasting your time and money.

      You mean a degree in... whatever the hot job is today?

      Good idea. I can speculate on the job market, just like I can speculate on the stock market. Then, when I come out, I'll find there's demand for 600,000 jobs of type X, and that me and 16 million others spent the last 4 years in college for job X. Then, hopefully, I'll be one of the 1 in 27 who actually gets hired... hopefully early, too, since more hundreds of thousands of people who went to college for Job X are coming out of college every year.

      If you go to college and the other people don't, you'll get a nice, high-paying job, and they won't. [If you rat and he doesn't, you go free and he goes to jail for 20 years].

      If you don't go to college and other people do, you don't have the skills to compete for the same hot job. [If you don't rat and he does, you go to jail for 20 years.]

      If you and everyone else goes to college, you're all competing for the same job, and have to bid low salaries and poor benefits to plead for employment--if you can get hired at all. [If you both rat, you go to jail for 10 years.]

      If *nobody* goes to college without a job secured in hand, there's a labor shortage, and businesses have to do something to encourage you; of course, *everyone* has to give up the opportunity to skip ahead by going to college to get ahead of everyone else. [If neither of you rats, you both get 5 years, which means you pass up the opportunity to go free in the hopes that the other guy will *also* pass up the opportunity to go free.]

      Your most optimal choice is to go to college [rat out].

      The difference is everyone having independent access to college creates a different employment market situation than almost nobody having that independent access. Employers have to change their behavior, and can't place the same pressure upon employees. They have to select a different tactic, using their speculation [insider trading on the job market] to hire entrants and work the training and education required into their career paths. They then have an employee who is valuable to the company (valuation), and so will need to carry out more effective retention strategies (salaries, benefits--imagine having a pension!).

      You don't have the choice to opt for that market. Your only valid choice is to go to college like everyone else, unless you want to castrate yourself instead. Fuel the labor oversupply machine by speculating on what jobs will exist in the broad job market, rather than by zeroing in on a single specific business and analyzing its growth and its technical needs as they follow that growth. That's really what it comes down to: you, an individual, must speculate on the behavior of the *whole* *market* of many businesses, determining what job will eventually be most valued; whereas a business need only speculate on its own growth in its own market, and then hire entrants and begin training them to fill those needs as they approach. When enough skilled labor is floating around, leaving jobs here and moving there, they'll *stop* training people--and if you went to college for that job anyway, you'd find there aren't jobs out there for *you*, but rather for one of the many professionals currently trying to fill a limited number of slots.

      You can't have it both ways. Choose: efficient selection of career path with a guaranteed job backing you *before* you start investing your time and effort (and the labor and wealth available in the economy) into developing yourself as part of the workforce; OR the freedom to ignore all that bullshit and select what *you* think will be a viable career path in the future, hoping there will be a job there for you when you come out the other side

    44. Re:Math is fine! by ntipouan · · Score: 1

      Even if I don't consider myself proficient in topology, I have the sense that you have different definitions of the words "open" and "closed" in mind.

      I guess it was a joke that went wrong.

      --
      deltaS>=0 (c.s.)
  2. drop coding, do math by sittingnut · · Score: 5, Insightful

    drop the silly coding classes that gives nothing ('nerds' will learn anyways, others never will), do maths!

    -
    but will americans ever be free of mind control to even ask,
    "I admit that twice two makes four is an excellent thing, but if we are to give everything its due, twice two makes five is sometimes a very charming thing too." - from 'notes from underground' by fyodor dostoyevsky

    1. Re:drop coding, do math by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      drop the silly coding classes that gives nothing ('nerds' will learn anyways, others never will), do maths!

      When I was in school, I learn calculus, and I learned programming. The programming has been about a thousand times more useful. Programming is also a better way to learn logical thinking. If your proof is wrong, you may never even know it. But if your program is wrong, it won't work. Calculus classes should spend less time on proofs, and more on things like numerical integration.

    2. Re:drop coding, do math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. Coding will only be useful as long as there is a dearth of coders.

      In elementary and middle school, they should give kids a lot more game time. Physical games, logic game, fun games.

      I'm not talking 3d shooter, talking about good (not monopoly) board games and the like. It's through games that I learned logic. Not boring lessons.

      Math is also used way too abstract for kids, should also be incorporated into games.

    3. Re:drop coding, do math by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      When I was in school, I learn calculus, and I learned programming. The programming has been about a thousand times more useful.

      I didn't find programming useful until after I learned mathematics. Since I was terrible programmer on the Commodore 64 as a teenager, I avoided computers and took plenty of mathematics in college. A decade later I went back to school to learn computer programming and get my technical certifications. Everything fell into place with programming and I made the president's list for maintaining a 4.0 GPA in my major.

    4. Re:drop coding, do math by gtall · · Score: 1

      I've done extensive work in math, logic, and CS, including programming. Math and logic are by far the most useful. CS is good for grinding out mundane chores after you have used your math and logic to solve the problem.

    5. Re:drop coding, do math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, if you separate logic, math, and computer science for some arbitrary reason.

    6. Re:drop coding, do math by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Math up to about logic and maybe trig is useful in daily life for most careers. You need calc only in fields where you have to use those methods to make pertinent calculations or you're an academic.

      I've spent 20 years being shitty in calculus and having not suffered in the slightest. However, coding has kept me employed (in part) and well paid.

      It's good to know advanced math, and you should pursue it if you are good at it, but if you don't have the knack for it, you're better off learning something else. Not all "nerds" are good at math.

    7. Re:drop coding, do math by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      You don't think that an increase in grasping math could be a result of an increase in those students being apply to apply math concepts in programming?

    8. Re:drop coding, do math by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Coding will only be useful as long as there is a dearth of coders.

      And gold will only be valuable as long as there is a dearth of gold. Unless you count fools gold, then we have plenty of coders.

    9. Re:drop coding, do math by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      CS is good for grinding out mundane chores after you have used your math and logic to solve the problem.

      Most programming is sorting, searching, string processing, and user interfaces. Those involve little, if any, math (unless you think you need to design your own sorting algorithm). Math is needed for 3D graphics, and physical processes simulation, but even those rarely involve anything beyond first year calculus. You are never going to need to integrate the cube root of the co-secant.

    10. Re:drop coding, do math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most programming involves very little complex math. Oh, sure, you can claim it's all algorithms, and you'd be right. The same claim can be made about installing plumbing, imagine all the fluid flow dynamics calculations! But just like business programming, plumbers don't need to know the math behind their work to get the job done.

    11. Re:drop coding, do math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most programming is sorting, searching, string processing, and user interfaces. Those involve little, if any, math (unless you think you need to design your own sorting algorithm).

      If you aren't designing your own algorithms, then sorting, searching, and string processing are about as complicated as knowing how to follow instructions and put words together - preschool stuff. Not "programming".

      If you are, then they are all math.

      As for UI, you are correct that much effort goes into it but much of the code is either automatically generated or done by designers and not "programmers"

      You are as always giving a fantastic demonstration of how to utilize strawman argumentation tactics.

    12. Re:drop coding, do math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the problem is that people aren't distinguishing between real programming and putting lego bricks together. The latter can be done by anyone, the former not.

    13. Re:drop coding, do math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is nothing more grounded in mathematical logic than the construction of program architecture. That's why most programs have terrible architectures.

    14. Re:drop coding, do math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No true Scotsman... Sorry... "programmer" would use someone else's routines to get the job done!

      I believe you're confusing "programmer" with "computer scientist". One dealt with the logic behind the boring as hell website you put your banking credentials into. The other figured out how to write the software to get a VW to cheat the emissions tests.

    15. Re:drop coding, do math by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Coding will only be useful as long as there is a dearth of coders.

      Is that why coders are paid so poorly where they are common, like in Silicon Valley, and NYC, and paid very well in places where they are uncommon, like rural villages in Mozambique?

    16. Re:drop coding, do math by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      I think the problem is that people aren't distinguishing between real programming and putting lego bricks together.

      People are also failing to distinguish between real mathematicians, and those that use existing axioms and published theorems.

    17. Re:drop coding, do math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't truly understand math until I started coding, nor did I have any drive to.

      When i was a kid i thought who even needs half this stuff anyway and then i wanted to make my own game and i had to learn math to understand when and why i use things and problem solve everything from scratch and i finally understood why trigonometry was not just some useless nerd stuff.

      You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink, programming is a good potential motivator and teacher for mathematics

  3. Education is getting better by 110010001000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have noticed that Public education is getting better in the US. They are now teaching Math much more effectively (at least at the elementary school level). At first I thought the Common Core was dumb after my elementary school child showed me what he was doing, but after researching the teaching methods I know understand the reasoning behind techniques they are using. Plus the efforts of Code.org to introduce our kids to logic and programming at an elementary school level is really helping with all of their studies. Amazingly teaching basic logic helps in all aspects of life. Kudos to the Common Core people and Code.org. Too frequently the teaching "experts" are teaching the wrong techniques. Anyone who grew up learning "new math" (Venn diagrams, etc) in the early and mid 1980s public schools knows what I mean by that!

    1. Re:Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Do you wish to have a serious critical analysis or are you just going to lean on "you know what I mean" quips?

      You're basing your ideas off of what a single student does while the "teaching "experts"" see hundreds and potentially thousands of kids in a few years. Somehow I'm not convinced by your single point of data from your own precious snowflake.

    2. Re:Education is getting better by 110010001000 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It isn't a single point of data. I did research on Common Core. The teaching "experts" who came up with "New Math" were not seeing anyone. They were idiots and ruined math for decades. The Common Core people know what they are doing, because they are people who actually learned Math and Engineering at some point in their lives. The techniques are paying off. Go research to techniques if you are interested. My guess is you are too lazy to do it.

    3. Re: Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you high? Education is falling to pieces in America due to privatization corruption, the common core scam (which is incompatible with logic-based mathematics), kids can no longer fail regardless of performance, and about a million other factors. No offense, but clearly you are either in another country or have a life devoid of direct interaction with children. And FWIW, we used to teach ALL subjects in this hands-on manner, with real application, and kids learned really, really well. Thanks to dumbing down brought on by payolla scams like No Child Left Behind, Teach for America, corporations, silicon valley, and America's ass-backward political correctness, this has all changed, and our kids don't even know how to use Google. With the no-fail policy, eventually even those purporting to teach won't be able to do math unless we course correct, and soon. Education in America used to be rock solid - it resembles a wet paper sack full of holes at the moment.

      These math geniuses in the headlines are in the serious minority, and I suspect they acquired their skills at home under their parents' guidance. That is probably 1% of American students, sadly! We can't fix it if we don't acknowledge the ACTUAL problem and hold people accountable.

    4. Re: Education is getting better by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Actually that isn't true. Education is getting better. Your lies are apparent: common core is incompatible with logic-based mathematics? That doesn't even make sense. Kids can no longer fail? Really? Is that why the testing that everyone hates shows that many kids ARE FAILING? And no we never "used to teach ALL subjects" in this manner. I went to public school in the US in the 80s and it was a disaster. Fortunately it is getting better.

    5. Re:Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure that 1100100001000 has better places to devote their serious analyses than the slashdot comments section.

    6. Re:Education is getting better by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      Actually I don't. This is the best place to devote my expert analysis on all topics.

    7. Re: Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you read the article? A lot of the skill was acquired through enrichment activities, in person or online. It should not be shocking that a number of these kids are children of those who are math biased themselves (professors'/engineers' kids) but the quest for opportunities for their own helped develop a broader support infrastructure.

    8. Re:Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No lazier than the person who just dismisses others as idiots and makes hollow claims. When claims are made normally the burden of proof is on those making the claim. Or is that too much to ask for?

      If you really did the research you claimed you should have been able to cite something off the cuff. Instead you're just attacking those that aren't in your camp of thought.

    9. Re:Education is getting better by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Oh you are too lazy to look it up yourself? Imagine that! Start here: http://www.corestandards.org/a...

    10. Re:Education is getting better by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      The teaching "experts" who came up with "New Math" were not seeing anyone. They were idiots and ruined math for decades.

      Um, no. Well, you can argue that they "ruined" math education, but they weren't "idiots." The New Math was developed in the 1960s mostly by college professors and advanced math people in reaction to the "Space Race." The idea was to introduce mathematical abstractions (set theory, formalizations of analysis, etc.) at lower levels in education, which might be beneficial to students who were heading toward engineering and science degrees.

      As you rightly point out, there were a number of problems with the execution here. First, not every middle-school student has the talent or interest in becoming an engineer or scientist, so the New Math came across as increasingly irrelevant and confusing. Second, teachers often weren't clear on the rationale for the methods either, which led to poor implementation. Third, the New Math took basic algorithms of computation (which would be useful to everyone, whether they were heading for college in science or not) and made them seem complex and arcane (e.g., doing arithmetic in other bases), thus alienating less-talented students even from basic math.

      I'm not sure what you were studying in the 1980s, but that was well past the heyday of the New Math.

      In any case, the goals of the New Math were very different from Common Core -- the New Math wanted to increase output of scientists and engineers from our schools (focusing on abstract math for talented kids), regardless of the negative impact it had on the rest of the population's education. The Common Core instead is trying to be about better math pedagogy and better understanding for kids in general. We can argue about the details of the implementation, but the aim is different.

      Bottom line: the New Math was developed by experts in math not pedagogy. They weren't idiots -- they just didn't care about teaching the masses how to compute a tip when paying for dinner. They were trying to win the Cold War. And while their efforts arguably screwed up primary math education for the majority, the New Math reforms to secondary education were largely successful in improving pre-college math training in American high schools.

    11. Re:Education is getting better by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      I disagree. In fact had the opposite effect: New Math as taught in the late 1970s/early 1980s was unsuccessful in teaching pre-college math. By replacing basic Math education like algebra/geometry with the screwed up "New Math" they ruined math for those of us who actually had to take it in college for engineering. You can't learn Calculus without a solid understanding of Algebra and Geometry. New Math didn't teach what we needed to know to be successful in college math. It also presumably failed those who just needed to learn basic Math, like computing tips.

    12. Re:Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My guess is you are a welfare collecting niggercrat shill and you will shill for the communist-core bullshit "math" all because it was created by niggercrats for niggercrats. You are all so fucking lazy that you are stupid little apes and real math is too fucking hard for you to understand, then you whine about this so called "white privilege" because "whitey" has it all when in reality you niggercrats take from those that work hard and smart. Niggers could never run a truly successful business even after getting enough money to last for years.

      Ok. It's obvious you posted in the wrong forum. I believe you were looking for Stormfront..

    13. Re:Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again, when someone makes a claim the burden of proof is on them. If you don't like it then stop trying to be taken seriously when discussing a topic.

    14. Re:Education is getting better by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      OK great. So stop being lazy and click on the link. I can't discuss anything with someone who is ignorant of the basics.

    15. Re:Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Judging from all the impossible math problems posted online, I'd say common core is pretty stupid.
      Or at least the people making the textbooks are.

    16. Re:Education is getting better by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      I have noticed that Public education is getting better in the US

      I disagree, the article has some very telling things to say between the lines:

      The students are being produced by a new pedagogical ecosystem—almost entirely extracurricular—that has developed online and in the country’s rich coastal cities and tech meccas.

      Parents of students in the accelerated-math community, many of whom make their living in stem fields, have enrolled their children in one or more of these programs to supplement or replace what they see as the shallow and often confused math instruction offered by public schools, especially during the late-elementary and middle-school years

      My conclusion is, also based from what I see from my own kids in Texas public schools, are that parents who know what they're doing, and are already in the field, are feeling compelled to give their kids extra-curricular instruction in math, wherever they can find it, to augment the generally poor math being taught to "the normals" (by which I mean everyone who simply attends public school). Not only is there no push for better math, it is intentionally dumbed down even from when I was in school. What school or government sponsored math enrichment exists, exists in precisely the form the article describes: math competitions. To take the math programs here in Austin (varies wildly by school and ISD), you have to commit your kid to participating in these stupid competitions. It's not about learning math, it's about being #1. Bad news: only one guy can be #1. But the world needs many, many people who know math and science very well in order to field the workforce required for further progress, or indeed simply to staff existing jobs as us old farts age out.

      Public schools themselves are still very much behind the ball, all we're actually seeing is our elite outperform the other team's elite. What we need to see is a significant rise in overall mathematical literacy across the board.

    17. Re:Education is getting better by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The correct arithmetic techniques are Soroban techniques from ancient Japanese history. Everything else is long-path bullshit that makes for slow, inaccurate computation.

    18. Re:Education is getting better by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      You claim to have done research but you haven't presented any, and then you call others lazy for not doing the research themselves. You might as well not have done the research then.

    19. Re:Education is getting better by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I disagree. In fact had the opposite effect: New Math as taught in the late 1970s/early 1980s was unsuccessful in teaching pre-college math.

      Sorry, but I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. The New Math in secondary education was developed in the 1950s and implemented in the 1960s. By the early 1970s, the New Math movement was largely dead.

      By replacing basic Math education like algebra/geometry with the screwed up "New Math" they ruined math for those of us who actually had to take it in college for engineering. You can't learn Calculus without a solid understanding of Algebra and Geometry.

      I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. In the mid-1950s, high school enrollment in Algebra was down to about 25% of all high students, and enrollment in Geometry was down to less than 12% of high school students. The New Math was about encouraging students to take such courses, by combatting an anti-intellectual populism in the previous generation of educational reformers. It also encouraged clarity in concepts and algorithms in these classes which would line up better with advanced math taught in college. Also, the very idea of teaching calculus in high school was a product of the New Math reform.

      New Math didn't teach what we needed to know to be successful in college math.

      Without the reform of New Math curricula in the 1950s and 1960s, you may not have even had the option of taking math like geometry or algebra in high school, let alone calculus. How would missing out on such things be better preparation for college math??

      I think you're focusing too much on the reforms to primary education, and you don't seem to know what secondary New Math curricular reform was about. It was mostly about emphasizing the math you think claim it was jettisoning from curricula.

      I'd suggest you read about what the New Math reform actually was about. Here's a short intro to curricular reforms over the 20th century, here's a longer history of the New Math movement, and here's an intro to the sorry state of secondary math education in the U.S. around 1950 -- which definitely included little decent prep in geometry or algebra. One of the main goals of the New Math reform was to incorporate "a solid understanding of Algebra and Geometry" into the U.S. high school. At times, the reformers did go too far into abstraction, but I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

    20. Re: Education is getting better by Bengie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      the common core scam (which is incompatible with logic-based mathematics), kids can no longer fail regardless of performance

      Common Core tests have a high failure rate because of the much higher goals. You're conflating so called "Common Core curriculum" which is sold by private companies with the standardized Common Core progression benchmarks. Any test can be "Common Core" as long as it closely aligns with the Common Core benchmarks. How the tests are done or how the curriculum is taught has nothing to do with "Common Core" except marketing.

    21. Re:Education is getting better by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      I was talking about the "New Math" that was taught in the late 1970s/early 80s. Sets. Venn Diagrams. We always called it "New Math" but maybe it had some other term at that point. Whatever you call it, it was ineffective as that time period had the worst outcome for students.

    22. Re: Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Education may be getting better, but until Netcraft confirms that we have a choice besides Sanders, Clinton, Trump, Cruz, and Rubio for president I'll remain unconvinced.

    23. Re:Education is getting better by mbkennel · · Score: 1

      | Well, you can argue that they "ruined" math education, but they weren't "idiots." The New Math was developed in the 1960s mostly by college professors and advanced math people in reaction to the "Space Race." The idea was to introduce mathematical abstractions (set theory, formalizations of analysis, etc.) at lower levels in education, which might be beneficial to students who were heading toward engineering and science degrees.

      The Soviets had a better idea. Teach standard mathematics faster to the brightest students, and kick their ass.

      Personal experience: Newly entering graduate students in physics who were from Russia said that they had covered the material in the mathematical methods for physics course in secondary school before college. That means, for example, single variable calculus at age 13, multi-variable at age 14, and by the end of high school, ordinary & partial differential equations, complex and real analysis, linear algebra, Fourier/Laplace transforms, and a bit of group theory.

    24. Re:Education is getting better by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      Sets. Venn Diagrams. We always called it "New Math" but maybe it had some other term at that point.

      Well, set theory and stuff like Venn diagrams were part of some New Math curricula beginning in the 1960s, but mostly at the primary (or maybe middle-school) level. They were intended to teach things like Boolean algebra, which would be relevant to new trends (at that time) in computer programming. Again, the emphasis was on getting students up-to-speed to participate in the Space Race, etc.

      And I also should note that Venn diagrams were in fact meant to be visual aids to support the new abstract concepts (like Boolean algebra and set theoretical relationships), kind of like the visualizations you're arguing for in Common Core.

      Anyhow, they certainly weren't supposed to displace algebra and geometry in high-school curricula. If your school did that, they were doing the "New Math" wrong.

    25. Re: Education is getting better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting AC as to not undo mods, but thanks for pointing out that difference between Common Core (a set of standards/benchmarks for what knowledge and skills should be know at a given point in time, and probably a good if misunderstood idea) and the "Common Core curriculum" which seems to be 100% a way to line Pearson's pockets as they distribute what I find to be terrible course materials. Looking at my 8-yo daughter's homework, they could seriously benefit from learning some actual math and not focus on roundabout "methods" like taking 3 away from 14 to make a seven into a 10 before adding the numbers and such. Sadly, I'm not making that up. Needless to say, she'd rather just get the answer but can be marked wrong for not following - and explaining - the "right" convoluted procedure. I'd also like to think that dropping all the Pearson crap in the district might free up some money to do something radical, like maybe fill some empty teaching positions or not cut most of the bus routes like they're planning to do next year.

    26. Re:Education is getting better by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Burden of proof only applies when the information isn't easily publicly accessible. If I said the Space Shuttle is mostly white on top, I shouldn't need to "prove" it by supplying references. You are why we have sites like "Let me google that for you".

  4. Math is a Chore by sycodon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The way math is taught, Math is a chore. The way common core teaches it, it's a stupid, idiotic chore.

    There is never an example of the wonders of math. No examples of what can be accomplished and how you can actually benefit. It's just a series of numbered problems with the answers to the odd numbers in the back and precious little explanation. Something to finish before class is out and to remember just long enough to pass the next test.

    Math is a chore because it's taught like a chore.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      Math IS a chore. Learning IS a chore. People need to realize that not everything in life is "fun". You need to do the chores in order to get work done. Too many people don't want to put in the work.

    2. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the kids can dress up in anime costumes and fight with swords.

    3. Re:Math is a Chore by sycodon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but there needs to be a context and a purpose to that chore.

      When you are learning to read first grade books, the teacher is reading third grade level books to you. You see what's possible. YOU want to read that book. But you can't. So you work harder on the books you can read in order to be able to read the higher level books.

      It's like being taught to sculpt marble by MichaelAngelo, but he only lets you see the 6 square inches around the chisel.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    4. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's really like being taught to sculpt by Michaelangelo's janitor who let you into the shop through the back. Then he pretended to be an expert on sculpting and showed you how to carve oddly-shaped rocks and occasionally made up some nonsense about a particular form he noticed in one of his boss's creations (which he won't let you see anyway).

    5. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      To learn to read you first need to be able to recognize letters. You don't start out by reading books. To learn to write, you start out by writing letters. You don't write books. Michelangelo didn't start sculpting by creating David in the first week. You need to put in the work and stop needing to be entertained 100% of the time.

    6. Re:Math is a Chore by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 1

      The way math is taught, Math is a chore. The way common core teaches it, it's a stupid, idiotic chore. There is never an example of the wonders of math. No examples of what can be accomplished and how you can actually benefit.

      Can you elaborate with some ideas on how to teach math so that it's more engaging?

    7. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Learning IS a chore. People need to realize that not everything in life is "fun".

      Curiosity is instinct, but one that is very well damaged by the educational standards.

      Math: Typically inane memorization with a vague promise of 'this will help you later'
      History: Arbitrary collections of names and dates with all the story filed off to save space in the books.
      Literature: Almost always the worst collection of fiction available.
      General science: Was usually more memorization of random details without explanation of their worth.

      If it wasn't for the encyclopædia on the bookshelf and the discovery channel (back when it was about science), I would've hated every field of study rather than realizing that I should only hate my schools.

    8. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      At least in Math they don't do the inane memorization anymore in Public school. Sorry. You guys don't have up to date knowledge of modern Education.

    9. Re:Math is a Chore by PvtVoid · · Score: 1

      The way math is taught, Math is a chore. The way common core teaches it, it's a stupid, idiotic chore.

      Having seen quite a bit of Common Core math at this point, I have to disagree. I have taken a lot of advanced math, and use it every day. Common Core teaches math the way I think about math. As an example: What's 25 + 36? I don't approach this problem by adding 6 and 5, getting one-carry-one, then adding 1+2+3 and putting it in the tens column. I remember that 2+3 = 5, so 20+30=50, with 5+6 left over, which gives us one more ten (for 60) and one left over (for 61). Common Core teaches addition that way, with lots of visualizations so children can see how much ten is, and that a hundred is ten groups of ten, and so on. This is just one example. It teaches kids to reason about numbers, not just calculate.

      An additional advantage of the standardization brought about by Common Core is that it makes is possible for third parties to create software, web sites, etc. that are aligned with the standard and thus relevant to what's happening in the actual curriculum, without having to custom-build for each school district. This means that there is a ton of supplemental material available on the web, a lot of it free, that is perfectly aligned with the curriculum. It's awesome.

      That having been said, teachers who were already in the habit of teaching math as dreary, meaningless memorized computation can certainly do so with Common Core. That's not a problem with the standards. The problem there is the teachers.

    10. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm got to agree with this: math is often taught by memorization of facts without trying to teach the student how they apply to the real world. In terms of the reading analogy, it's like learning to read solely from phonics rules and word lists without ever reading a real book.

      I'd like to see math educators create a math curriculum that was built around a real-world task like building a skyscraper, running a business, or coaching a sports team. I bet it would be a lot more interesting and yield much better results in terms of real-world application than the typical curriculum.

    11. Re:Math is a Chore by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      The way math is taught, Math is a chore. The way common core teaches it, it's a stupid, idiotic chore.

      YessereeBob, I think its important for my kids to learn to skip the hard stuff, and only develop skills in the fun stuff. I tell them, "if it seems like a chore, that is your excuse to perform poorly". My youngest wanted to be a clown, but she didn't like the chore of putting on the makeup.

    12. Re:Math is a Chore by jandersen · · Score: 1

      The way math is taught, Math is a chore

      Well, it is being taught by teachers who don't actually understand it all that well, so that is the way it has to be.

      Now, I don't actually know what goes for "advanced maths" in primary and secondar education in the States, but I hope it is something that tries to dive into the actual, intuitive foundations of the subject and tries to impart real understanding of mathematical reasoning. Take elementary set theory as an example; when I learned about it in primary school, it was rather vague and hard to find interesting; compare that to Halmos' famous book: Naive Set Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naive_Set_Theory_%28book%29), which is the same thing, but with loads of insight into why it is the way it is - how the intuition results in mathematical concepts.

    13. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Math isn't taught by memorization anymore. As I said originally: Math teaching is getting better. You guys think that Math is being taught like it used to when you were learning it. It isn't.

    14. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      100% correct. Finally someone else that has knowledge of what Common Core is. I was against Common Core when I first looked at it, but after learning more about it, and seeing how it works with actual kids, I am a fan.

    15. Re:Math is a Chore by The-Ixian · · Score: 1

      Sounds good to me.

      This is the kind of out-of-the-box thinking that we need in our schools!

      --
      My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    16. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting AC because I moderated.

      One anecdote about common core being used incorrectly: A coworker showed me his son's math assignment. He was told to add two numbers, and to show 3 different ways of doing it, kinda like what you are talking about. Apparently they taught some of these techniques and the students were supposed to demonstrate that they knew each of the approaches. Unfortunately, the student lost points because he only used 2 of the techniques. On one hand, I am excited that they are teaching children different ways to solve problems. This was missing in previous generations. On the other hand, should they be grading them on their ability to use all 3 techniques? It seems like the idea is to show them that each approach is available, and they can use whichever one is most comfortable with the way their brain is wired. Hopefully, this was just for the one assignment where they were supposed to demonstrate that they recognized the technique and absorbed the value of it, even if it isn't the best approach for them. After that, they should be free to use whatever they want.

    17. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      How would he know which technique is the proper one to use on a problem unless you knew all the techniques available? You don't use the same technique on every problem. It is the techniques that are being taught. Depending on the complexity of the problem being solved you may switch between techniques. That is the entire basis of the idea.

    18. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's funny. As a person who earned a degree in Applied Mathematics, and someone who routinely works in elementary classrooms, I disagree.

      The common core standards have many different curriculum choices, just like the old Math standards, with some curriculum being good and others being bad. The current group of teachers are of different qualities, just like teachers of the old standards. From looking at the standards, the difference between the old standards and the new is that common core is teaching students to be able to answer questions that ask "why?"

      The common core standards were coming out while I was still at university, and on more than one occasion I was asked by fellow math students if the common core was really teaching students to do math the way we were doing things. The honest truth is, from what I've seen in more than one classroom, in more than one school, in more than one district, is that students are now being taught to do arithmetic in the ways that I had to teach myself to do things in my head. Students are learning things that I had to figure out how to do, and as a result are able to do things that only the brightest students were able to do in the past. Most of the backlash from common core is from parents who don't know the methods and can't help their students at home. This is a problem that will correct itself in time though.

      Posting as AC because I don't feel like logging in.

    19. Re:Math is a Chore by CaptainLard · · Score: 1

      Here we go with the common core backlash...

      Lets say a great many people all need to do something in their lives that the vast majority believe could be improved, backed by numerous scientific studies. A program is devised based on many years of research that attempts to change the focus of this task from memorization to understanding. Since this is a significant paradigm (sorry) shift, those who came up from the old system are confused and as with most new programs there are a few bugs to work out. Should we:

      A) Tweak the program and let it evolve with the population since everything we know says we should try it
      B) Start a vast national smear campaign with the goal of shutting it down and ostensibly going back to the old system because no one is proposing an alternative*, just because the "other guy" was in office when the plan was implemented.

      *I would count your "wonders of math" as an alternative if some details were provided instead of being presented "TrumpStyle"

    20. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using math as your "you need to learn to do drudgery" is like teaching Shakespeare without letting the kids in on how half of it is dick jokes, or teaching painting by doing a hundred single brush strokes and critiquing their technique. The issue people saying "math is taught as a chore" are bringing up is that it /isn't/ itself a chore, it's just playing with ideas and good reasoning that happens to give rise to some useful things as well as being fun. Probability grew out of people's gambling habits, abstract algebra (and with it good crypto) came from a century spent on what quite possibly was Fermat trolling anyone who picked up his book... and the way people who are quick at mental arithmetic do it isn't based on algorithm memorization, it's more like opportunistic application of algebra. Which is fun, in a candy-crush-ish trivial puzzle game sort of way.

      It's not "You should skip the hard bits", it's "you're doing it /wrong/ and making it into hard bits".

    21. Re:Math is a Chore by Art+Challenor · · Score: 1

      Yes, but there needs to be a context and a purpose to that chore.

      I found calculus an arcane mystery until the teacher explained how to calculate the optimum shape for a can to use the least material. About the simplest use but immediately demonstrated the potential of what I was learning.

    22. Re:Math is a Chore by Kwyj1b0 · · Score: 2

      Math IS a chore. Learning IS a chore. People need to realize that not everything in life is "fun". You need to do the chores in order to get work done. Too many people don't want to put in the work.

      While that might be partly true, it is also true that Math education is a chore because it was treated as a process of memorizing, not discovering - memorize process x,y,z so you can answer contrived questions a, b, and c. There is an excellent essay on this topic: A mathematician's lament.

    23. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sorry. Math isn't fun for 99.99% of people. You just think it is fun for yourself and you don't understand that other people don't find it fun. It doesn't mean you shouldn't learn it.

    24. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You missed my point--memorization isn't the problem--but memorization without context. And I'm writing as an educator, not as a student of some former decade. Math isn't my specialty, but I have seen many examples in the current common core math curriculum where math principles are introduced without any introduction to how they fit in the structure of math concepts, or how they might be applied/practiced in real life.

    25. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Well they aren't doing memorization without context in Common Core so I don't know what your point is. In fact they apply it to real life examples, like timelines in History, etc.

    26. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. See also A Mathematician's Lament a.k.a. Lockhart's Lament. A bit long, the first 5 pages or so get the point across, though I also like the "summary" of math education in the US at the end.

    27. Re:Math is a Chore by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Such as teaching subtraction by eating skittles?

    28. Re:Math is a Chore by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

      Learning is not hard; it is, however, *effort*.

      It's also technology. I've been collecting some of the high technology--spanning modern, classical, and *lost* technology--and trying to turn that into a primary education system. That's a complex feat of engineering *well* beyond my personal capability. I'm trying to put something together that adults can understand and which skilled teachers can stream in the same rough order and detail I provide to teach first-grade children; I can't create a viable classroom curriculum, but I can probably figure out what you'd need to put in one.

      I remember going through school with teacher telling me to study and take notes. That's where all this started for me: I was never taught how to study or take notes. Now I'm aware of SQ3R, SQW4R, OK5R, MURDER, OARWET, PQRST, and the other dozen or so nearly-identical study systems; I also know about Cornell Notes, three-column notes, and a few specialized concept maps. I've learned about Soroban mathematics and the transition from the Soroban to Anzan--arithmetic computed in your head faster than you can punch it into a calculator. I've learned about mnemonics fundamentals (visualization, organization, association), tools (rhythm, rhyme, acrostic, mnemonic numeracy), and systems (peg, link, PAO, mind palace). I've learned a lot about maximizing human efficiency in studying and learning--minimizing the time and sheer mental effort applied.

      I've taken this out pretty far. I know about the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, the part of your brain that enforces your direct decisions on other parts of your brain. I know your brain tries to hum along doing what it *usually* does, and the dlPFC expends its ATP reserves forcing your brain to expend *more* energy in other places, what scientists call "willpower". I know all the things I listed above, all the strategies I've devised, serve to reduce that energy expenditure, increasing the amount of action you can take per day (less effort means more learning and more time spent on-task; more effort means you lose focus quickly). You need these things, and you need to drill them into your brain as basic processes so you don't expend much energy invoking them, thus ensuring a net-gain.

      Want to know where geniuses come from? They're made. They're the kids who happen to stumble across fancy mental tricks that reduce the amount of thinking they do. Those of us who were attentive enough to think about things, to reflect, learned to associate information to other information: I never had to memorize my math formulas because I would pick them apart to understand how they worked, and then *re-derive them* during every homework assignment and every test. I've seen people who are just incredible geniuses and people who are masterfully creative; they're doing better than I am, but we're all doing the *same* things with our brains: gluing bits of information together. It's the time I spend not putting in the effort that cuts me down.

      Of course it's not always fun. I spent 4 hours today thinking about how I should study on Duolingo, meanwhile staring at IRC scrolling by while not really reading it; I zoned out to avoid the labor of thinking, when I could have spent an hour learning and solidifying new information. The guy who's studiously pouring over his Japanese books and whining about how hard it is is learning Japanese faster than I'm learning Esperanto, and I can learn Esperanto 20 times faster than *anyone* can learn Japanese. Everyone is like this. We think some people are just dumb, but they're just not using their facilities effectively.

    29. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way math is taught, Math is a chore. The way common core teaches it, it's a stupid, idiotic chore.

      Common core does not dictate any method or praxis of teaching at all, so this makes no sense. It's like saying "the way driving is taught, driving is a chore. The way that roads teach it, it's a stupid, idiotic chore." Everything you think is wrong with common core is bad implementation; requiring that everyone understand the same mathematical operations that were commonly taught in the 1960s public schools is not really very controversial, and that's pretty much what common core is when you look at the actual requirements.

      Here, I'll fix it for you:

      The way that math is taught, Math is a chore. The way that US School Systems have implemented Common Core standards makes it a stupid, idiotic chore.

    30. Re:Math is a Chore by trout007 · · Score: 1

      Depends on the textbook. We decided to start homeschooling and I'm using a Saxton Algebra Book. I love it. Each chapter increments what was done previously and there are some examples worked out followed by a handful of problems on that material. Then the problem set is 30 questions that can go back to the beginning of the book. Each question has the reference chapter in parenthesis in case the child needs to review it. That way you are always checking retention.

      After an initial rough period transitioning from the Common Core approved Hardcourt book he is doing wonderfully. Takes him about an hour each night to do math. We test once a week on Friday and it covered material that was introduced 2 weeks ago so there is plenty of time to practice and master it.

      So much better than the cram for 1 week, test and repeat.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    31. Re:Math is a Chore by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Things you need to rote memorize in math: Complement sets {(1,4),(2,3)} and {(1,9),(2,8),(3,7),(4,6)}; Multiplication tables; Computational algorithms (addition and subtraction using the complement sets; multiplication and division using the multiplication tables; mental calculation for square roots, and the generalized nth root algorithm); Algebraic rules. Have these at your fingertips and a computation is equivalent to its result: glance at a page of numbers and recite the result immediately, without thinking.

      Things you *should* memorize in math by network: Algebraic formulas; Trigonometric identities; Geometric formulas; Methods of derivations of the prior. These are things which tell about each other. You'll remember how they work by working with them; you'll associate them together by how and why they function; and you'll begin recognizing that pieces of equations are related to pieces of other equations, allowing you to put them back together when you forget. That association will let you walk your memory back to any equation you need if it isn't immediately familiar; if you *do* forget something like the Law of Cosines, you can recreate it based on what you do remember.

      The set of required rote memory--stuff you're going to need to repeat to yourself again and again--is minimal. Even then, you'll likely memorize the compliments, the algorithms, and the algebraic rules by habit of doing; you'll need to memorize the multiplication table by brute force, since you're only ever going to focus on recalling a few elements here and there, instead of all elements *constantly*. Everything else fits into large, complex systems which you can map out in your mind to develop a broad field of organized, associated information, thus strengthening the links to all these facts by making them cognitive.

      When *I* was in school, they just made us memorize each new concept and equation. We had to recite equation when prompted, and were only given them in the form of "This equation solves this type of problem." Rote memorization in inappropriate places.

    32. Re:Math is a Chore by dasgoober · · Score: 1

      Correct, without seeing any real practical application to what you're learning, math just seems like strenuous, boring busy-work.

    33. Re:Math is a Chore by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I use the same technique on every arithmetic problem.

      If you show me some numbers to add--5736 + 7452--I go left to right. 5 + 7 is 12. How do I know? Because I have the sets {(1,4),(2,3)} and {(1,9),(2,8),(3,7),(4,6)} memorized. I know 8 is 5+3; I can also re-derive this: (2,8) gives me 2 on 5, which swaps via (2,3), and so now I have 3. 5+3 = 8. Check it; I didn't bother doing the math, just like I didn't bother verifying that 5-3 = 2 (because I'm adding 7 to 5, thus (3,7), I subtract 3 from 5 and increment the 0 to the left).

      Scan the numbers. 13188.

      Is that right? I don't know: I just glanced at the two 4-digit numbers. Let me count it on my fingers. 13188. ... Yes.

      Subtraction goes the opposite way. Multiplication just calls up the appropriate entries from the 0-9 multiplication table (5x7 = 35?) and drops them down to an accumulator (add them), which *really* grows the number of computations. Division is as annoying as ever: guess what's close and perform multiplication, *then* subtraction. Take a guess about where I got this.

      Friendly numbers and equation rearranging are cheap. They're easy to learn with low effort, and abstractly attach to any advantage you might have by seeing the same numbers added again and again. You remember what 7 + 9 is? then 7 + 4 + 9 becomes 7 + 9 + 4. Multiples of five are universal; doubles are common. This isn't an algorithm, but a strategy.

      Algorithms are expensive, but *efficient*. You'll work harder to get these Soroban-derived techniques down. You'll expend effort making them autonomic. You're going to suck down ATP, choline, and glutamate trying to burn this into your head. It's not as heroic as it sounds, but it *is* effort. Once you've done that, you'll glance at numbers, blink once, and spit out a computation. You won't even be sure it's correct because you won't remember doing any math; you'll just see 15 numbers to add, subtract, and multiply, and you'll run through it with numbers being swapped out for other numbers. You won't expend any *effort* doing the computations, either: for all that up-front study, you *never need to think about arithmetic again*.

      This is why asian kids freak us all out.

    34. Re:Math is a Chore by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      If it seems like a chore, you may need a new method to accomplish the same goals.

    35. Re:Math is a Chore by Bengie · · Score: 1

      If learning isn't fun, you're doing it wrong. Children love to learn, until you beat the enjoyment out of it.

    36. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but you need motivation to do that work!

      No one is going to become a mathematician or scientist because "my parents told me I had to do this".

    37. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      They don't teach math like that anymore. Math is still a chore for most people. There are the 0.1% of people who actually enjoy math "discovery", and they all read Slashdot.

    38. Re:Math is a Chore by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah. You sound normal. Give me a break. 5+7 is 12 because you have the sets {(1,4),(2,3)} and {(1,9),(2,8),(3,7),(4,6)} memorized? You can't even explain what you are doing to me. What in the sets makes 5+7=12? You expect kids to understand that?

    39. Re:Math is a Chore by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      One of the more interesting thing about Common Core is the effort to change this, to teach problem solving rather than memorization. It's also one of the reasons common core is lamented so heavily by some people, that is because the answer is less important than the method of developing the answer. Some people look at a common core kids math problem, and these people grew up memorizing answers, and they can't conceivably solve a problem that is based on the premise of teaching solving the problem rather than memorizing the solution. This makes the parent feel stupid so they blame common core, rather than their own memorization focused education. Though I'm sure there are some bad common core problems, as there are always bad problems regardless of teaching method.

      I've seen some of the posted problems that target common core as absurd and what I saw was ingenious problems that teach problem solving and not memorization. My first year of college math courses was spent undoing the damage of elementary and secondary math education that taught memorization. If we can send kids out of elementary and secondary education with problem solving skills, that at least in my generation weren't taught at all, we will do good things for a significant number of students.

    40. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, sorry. Math isn't fun for 99.99% of people.

      Could you even try to think about the point of view that Math isn't fun for 99.99% of people because of how it is taught rather than an innate condition of those 99.99% of people? Otherwise, at this point, I'm just struggling to even be convinced by half of what you're ranting about in this comment section - your absolutism is blinding.

    41. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way math is taught, Math is a chore. The way common core teaches it, it's a stupid, idiotic chore.

      There is never an example of the wonders of math. No examples of what can be accomplished and how you can actually benefit. It's just a series of numbered problems with the answers to the odd numbers in the back and precious little explanation. Something to finish before class is out and to remember just long enough to pass the next test.

      Math is a chore because it's taught like a chore.

      You're having a hard time grasping why people think Math is a chore?

      There's a smartphone app for calculating a 10% tip. Yes, that's correct, an app to do even the simplest of mathematical calculations that most people should be able to do in their fucking head. It probably takes more brain power to unlock the layers of security to get to the damn app that crunches numbers for you.

      Who writes in a checkbook anymore to calculate the balance by hand? You think people are running around crunching signal analysis when they get a shitty WiFi signal? Hell no.

      Math is a chore because 99.999% of society has little use for manual calculations anymore.

      Unsurprisingly, it's quite a fucking chore to try and come up with real world examples to teach math. Go figure as to why that is.

    42. Re:Math is a Chore by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      They train first-graders with this in every Japanese primary school. They start using a Soroban, which is a 4/1 abacus where the top bead represents 5 and the lower 4 beads represent 1, which provides a visual and mechanical representation of numerical computation.

      As I said: the first set are complements on 5. (1,4) are complements across 5: 5 - 1 is 4, 5 - 4 is 1. If you have 8 on a 4/1 abacus, you have 5 + 3. If you subtract 4, you have to toggle 5 and add 1: you get 0 + 3+1. Mechanically, this is just moving the 5 bead and moving one of the 1 beads. You'll notice that's a lot of abstract bullshit, and yet ... it gives you 4. 8 - 4 is 4. It's a rote mechanical action.

      The other set is on ten. (7,3) tells me I'm just running 5-3, which is of course 2 (3,2). Since I'm adding 7 + 5 and I know 5 is greater than or equal to 3 (again: 7 and 3), I know to increment the next column to the left and toggle 5. I'm left with 12. Somehow. I see two things: a conversion to 2 and an increment in the next column, so I get 12.

      In America, we only use this system to teach kids with severe learning disabilities, since they can't follow the standard math curriculum.

      People often underestimate what small children will understand. You can get pretty technical in some subjects, notably in the psychology and some of the neuroscience of memory. That's a specific example: human memory is such a universal experience that even a three-year-old can verify anything you explain about its mechanisms simply by thinking for about four seconds. More abstract topics like numbers are *extremely* difficult to grasp for the uninitiated--children aren't special in this regard; just try teaching direct arithmetic in hexidecimal or *universally* to any random adult--and a Soroban quickly turns that abstraction into something concrete. More complex topics are removed from human perception: you can't get into engineering without math; you can't get into chemistry without an understanding of the elements; a lot of things require a *lot* of background knowledge, and that doesn't change when you're no longer five years old.

      When I was in 10th grade, one of my teachers spent 3 weeks trying to get his class to learn subnetting of IPv4 networks. It didn't work very well. The first day, I looked over the subnets, then recognized that the mask was a simple AND mask. Eventually I drew up a logic table, gave a quick explanation of basic discrete operations to several of my classmates, and outlined the rules specific to subnet masking (e.g. your subnet mask is a stream of 1s and then a stream of 0s, not an arbitrary binary sequence). They got it.

      Most people think I'm a genius because of shit like this; I've more recently been inclined to acknowledge this as fact when explaining how human intelligence operates. In this case, my teacher made note of my explanation and showed me the results for the next two years: his students picked up subnetting in half an hour. All of them. Nobody took weeks to sort-of get it working; nobody was frustrated, nobody dreaded subnet masking for all eternity. They picked it up *immediately*. None of them were any smarter than my classmates had been, either.

      I understood the mechanism. I showed my teacher how to *explain* the mechanism. His future students understood the mechanism *immediately*. They didn't get an explanation of some rote process; they got a full understanding of how and why that process works, and then carried out that rote process *repeatedly*. Instead of stumbling over pieces and wondering if they messed something up (and frequently doing so), they could constantly and continuously verify the process. When something didn't make sense, they could go back and find the error in their understanding, and *self-correct*. That's exactly the same way I had approached the problem.

      That ideal you have in your head about talent, giftedness, and intelligence is all backwards. It doesn't exist; we just suck at teaching. We haven't shown them how to use their brains.

    43. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, math is not a chore. Math is fun - although some find it more fun if they get an explanation of what it actually can be used for.

      As for chores, sports is a chore. Profoundly meaningless activities with a ball - and unlike math, there are no practical applications at all.

    44. Re:Math is a Chore by oakgrove · · Score: 1

      I've seen some of the posted problems that target common core as absurd and what I saw was ingenious problems that teach problem solving

      My sentiments exactly. I stumbled on some blog post that was lambasting common core and when I got to the actual example that illustrates the author's premise, I was like, that's actually a really good problem and a fantastic way to teach kids math. Realizing that this is what people are bitching about regarding the common cold curriculum, my faith in humanity eroded just a little bit more.

      --
      The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
    45. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mathematical logic: Teach people how to win arguments.

    46. Re:Math is a Chore by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Anybody on /. think he's a genius?

      Anybody? Don't be shy.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    47. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people were Math literate:
      -demographic wage gaps would be considered offensive
      -demographic conviction rates would be considered criminal
      -demographic death penalty/abortion rates would be considered genocide(I'm pro-choice)
      -nobody would play the lottery
      -nobody would bet their retirement on the stock market
      -nobody would pay fund managers when they could buy index fund ETFs
      -nobody would listen to anything James Comey had to say ever again.
      -nobody would play anything other than blackjack or poker in a Casino
      -there would be no benefit to home ownership
      -etc.

      Math illiteracy is the foundation of most sales and advertising. Our entire society requires the majority of people to be Math illiterate to function.

    48. Re:Math is a Chore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I take your point, I think that for some people, math will always be difficult and alien.

      There are numerophiles out there who learn fast and enjoy math. Seeing one is always interesting, and some are very good at sharing their enthusiasm.

      However different people have different interests and aptitudes. Some people gravitate towards languages, some towards images, some towards people. Some people have mechanical facility. Some learn by doing and some by reading. If your "thing" isn't math, you will have more work than pleasure in learning math.

      A good teacher and curriculum helps. As always. And a bad teacher or curriculum can drive you away from a subject. Capability with a subject doesn't mean you can teach it and watching a domain genius can either inspire or discourage. A lot depends upon the presentation of the material, but the learner has to have the capability and interest in the first place.

    49. Re:Math is a Chore by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      To learn to read you first need to be able to recognize letters. You don't start out by reading books. To learn to write, you start out by writing letters. You don't write books. Michelangelo didn't start sculpting by creating David in the first week. You need to put in the work and stop needing to be entertained 100% of the time.

      But it is exciting learning to recognise letters precisely because you know that you will be able to read books at the end of it and not have to rely on your parents/teachers reading to you.

      The world is not split in a binary way between "entertainment" and "horrible boring stuff".

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    50. Re:Math is a Chore by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I remember going through school with teacher telling me to study and take notes. That's where all this started for me: I was never taught how to study or take notes. Now I'm aware of SQ3R, SQW4R, OK5R, MURDER, OARWET, PQRST, and the other dozen or so nearly-identical study systems; I also know about Cornell Notes, three-column notes, and a few specialized concept maps. I've learned about Soroban mathematics and the transition from the Soroban to Anzan--arithmetic computed in your head faster than you can punch it into a calculator. I've learned about mnemonics fundamentals (visualization, organization, association), tools (rhythm, rhyme, acrostic, mnemonic numeracy), and systems (peg, link, PAO, mind palace). I've learned a lot about maximizing human efficiency in studying and learning--minimizing the time and sheer mental effort applied.

      Wow, I just scribble stuff down and hope I remember some of it.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    51. Re:Math is a Chore by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Anybody on /. think he's a genius?

      Anybody? Don't be shy.

      * tumbleweed *

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    52. Re:Math is a Chore by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      5 + 7 is 12. How do I know? Because I have the sets {(1,4),(2,3)} and {(1,9),(2,8),(3,7),(4,6)} memorized

      To paraphrase Byron, I wish you would explain your explanation.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    53. Re:Math is a Chore by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      *shrug* I can pass all three of Mensa's exams. I've always been good at tests, even on subjects I'm unfamiliar with, as long as the questions expose enough about the subject for me to pick out appropriate answers. If you want to test someone's knowledge, use open-ended short answers; but multiple choice tests can be graded by machines, so nobody does this anymore.

      Again: it's the way you operate the brain. It's like handing someone a $3,000 Nikkon camera: they take shitty pictures; then you show them how photography works and they start taking these unbelievable photographs with an iPhone, much less a professional-grade DSLR. This sort of wizardry makes people think you have talent or intelligence they can't possibly posses; then you pass high school with a 14.6 GPA, perfect grades in Statistics and Calculus, and, 4 months later, an Associate's Degree from a local community college, and everyone acts surprised. They don't realize this can be taught.

    54. Re:Math is a Chore by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      If you had a method of scribbling stuff down that took just as long and retained twice as much in your head, would you do that instead?

    55. Re:Math is a Chore by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Learn to add and subtract by Soroban.

  5. The article smells of bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A focus on general problem solving skills was the main agenda of "new math" which contributed to a heavy decline of math skills in the past decades. That this very same method suddenly gives great results seems unlikely. Perhaps something else changed, or the author takes the wrong numbers as a basis. An increased success of elites, e.g. by having more winners in math olympiads, does not necessarily indicate an overall better education. I'm not saying flat-out that the author is wrong, perhaps something has improved, but count me among the skeptics.

  6. Its maths dammit by rossdee · · Score: 1

    In the rest of the world the subject is mathematics
    plural

    apparntly in America there is only one math.

    1. Re:Its maths dammit by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 2

      apparntly in America there is only one math.

      When you abbreviate a word you don't tack letters back on the end. We don't shorten Chemistry to Chemy, after all.

      Thank goodness. Until I saw this exchange, I thought I was the only one here who wanted to have a fruitless 30-minute argument about where exactly the letter u belongs or doesn't belong.

    2. Re:Its maths dammit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We would probably shorten chemistries to chems, though.

    3. Re:Its maths dammit by 110010001000 · · Score: 0

      Do you say learning "Histories" or "Chemistries" or "Biologies"? No. So why would you say "Maths"?

    4. Re:Its maths dammit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you say learning "Histories" or "Chemistries" or "Biologies"? No. So why would you say "Maths"?

      You're just pluralizing without any understanding of the linguistics, mate. If the root word were "historics" or "chemics" or "biologics", then "hists", "chems", and "bios", would be the analogous shortenings.

    5. Re:Its maths dammit by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Even if that were true, well you don't say "hists" or "chems" or "bios" either. So why say "maths"?

  7. It can help you workout how bad that forced meal p by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    It can help you workout how bad that forced meal plan is and how fast that student loans interest adds up.

  8. ask Shatner who gets credit by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From my experience with kids of this generation, there's one teacher who's responsible for most of the positive increase in mathematical competency in recent years: Salman Khan.

    I'm sure you'll find any number of politicians and their cronies at the textbook corporations who will claim credit, but when they mess everything up and the children find themselves mystified and befuddled, they turn to Khan for help.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:ask Shatner who gets credit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you kidding me? Kids looking up answers online is not the same thing as "mathematical competency".

    2. Re:ask Shatner who gets credit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not for the demographics this article is talking about - these are the kids that don't need Khan's support, but that need people like Richard Rusczyk and his ArtOfProblemSolving online community. At the highest end of the spectrum, Titu Andresscu, and now and alum of his program, Po Shen Loh, have helped to sharpen the elite into world championship caliber. I suspect that the fact that IMO alumni like Po are more and more involved in the MO(S)P training program plays an important role in our recent success. That said, that success did not spring from nowhere - the MAA's American Mathematics Contest program goes back 65 years, and MathCounts, the biggest middle school and overall on-site competition goes back over 30 years. It takes time for these things to broaden their reach, particularly as alumni of the program spread their passion and are generally better suited as mentors for the next generation. It is very nice to see their efforts acknowledged.

    3. Re:ask Shatner who gets credit by abramovs · · Score: 1

      [Sarcasm On] Now that's some clear logic. You must studied a lot of Math to know that we should give credit to one person who has not a shred of empirical evidence to suggest that his approach has led to positive learning outcomes. Let's keep to anecdotal claims - that will surely help us to understand how kids learn Math better. I'll even have a go:
      From my experience with kids of this generation, there's one teacher who's responsible for most of the positive increase in mathematical competency in recent years: The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
      I'm sure you'll find any number of politicians and their cronies at the textbook corporations who will claim credit, but when they mess everything up and the children find themselves mystified and befuddled, they turn to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for help.

  9. Some schools are very good now by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

    in the 80's in elementary school we spent years doing the basic operations and the daily homework was dozens of easy and mind numbing problems. didn't start algebra until 7th grade honors math. my oldest kid is in third grade and they are already doing fractions with different denominators. the basic operations start in kindergarten now. the homework is a sheet of a few problems but word problems every day. less time but a lot more effective. i saw a sixth grade math text and they are doing algebra with multiple variables

    1. Re:Some schools are very good now by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      100% correct. I know I wasn't doing fractions in 3rd grade. Kids are doing much more advanced math now, and doing it better, no matter what the sticks-in-the-mud commenters here say. I attribute it to Common Core, but there might be other factors in play.

    2. Re:Some schools are very good now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but are they capitalizing words and putting proper punctuation marks at the end of their sentences!?

      For god's sake man, why do you hate America and why won't you think of teh children???

    3. Re:Some schools are very good now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...my oldest kid is in third grade and they are already doing fractions with different denominators

      Why? I suppose it is a useful skill if one is going to be a carpenter using imperial tape measures but otherwise, I don't see the point. Do they also teach pecks to bushels?

    4. Re:Some schools are very good now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you cut your pizza into .12 pieces too?

    5. Re:Some schools are very good now by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      I grew up in the same time period, what I remember is teaching the same math every single year from 1st to 6th grade. Maybe a shade more difficult but I agree, pages and pages of mind numbingly boring problems.

  10. Note by JWW · · Score: 2

    The kids winning these competitions today were not taught Common Core math in elementary school.

    Or to put it another way, these gains will not be long lived as the inadequately taught youth in elementary school today make their way into the secondary levels.

    1. Re:Note by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because American elementary school is the only way to learn anything.

      Oh wait.

  11. We need more before announcing success. by jacekm · · Score: 1

    The winners of the olympiad were:

    Shyam Narayanan, David Stoner, Michael Kural, Ryan Alweiss, Yang Liu and Allen Liu

    I hate to break the news, but most likely 3 if not 4 out of 6 were either immigrants or children of the immigrants from the regions of the world, where learning hard sciences is a strong family culture with serious attention and pressure from the parents.

    1. Re:We need more before announcing success. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you need math? Just get a business degree and hire h1b's!

    2. Re:We need more before announcing success. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps if you learned math, you wouldn't have been replaced by an h1b who does.

  12. Many K-6 teachers are terrified of math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I've taught classes in the use of computers and technology in education, mostly to teachers who needed credits to keep up their certifications. Far too many of the K-6 (kindergarten through 6th grade) teachers objected any time I talked about anything math-related in class. Many times I heard objections like "math was not supposed to be a prerequisite for this course" or words to that effect.

    It's no wonder that many kids come out of elementary school less than enchanted with math.

  13. Awesome! Not so fast. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With the true unemployment rate, the UG rate, hovering at almost 10% and the fact that the economy never totally recovered under Obama I have to wonder where the new math grads will find employment.

  14. No need of math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There really is no need of math in the modern usa. The jobs which require math all go to h1b.

    So, instead, we the usa needs to be focused on raising a society of creative socialpaths who, like Elon or Steve Jobs, can make creative choices and design nice looking products and then lay off their co-workers and hire the h1b's to make it happen.

    Math is unless when the people you are competing against are willing live 12 to a rented house (down the road from me, this is true, 12 h1b's in 1 3 bedroom house) and work like indentured servants for 50 cents on the dollar what a usa worker would make.

    Or we need to train the youth in union politics so we can unionize the stem workers against the excessives of h1b capitialism.

  15. pricey math activities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The result is a disparity in economic backgrounds for students in pricey math activities; many middle-class Americans investigate summer camps or sports programs for younger kids, but they don't realize how important a math program could be for a curious child.

    That sentence makes no sense. Also, the idea that "math activities" are "pricey" makes no sense.

    1. Re:pricey math activities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      noted in his searches to recruit low-income students: "Actually doing math should bring them joy."

      A pen and a stack of paper is much cheaper than the sport gear for that fashionable sports this year. Although access to the good books across the field are necessary sources for inspiration.

  16. Journey to the Center of Dearth by epine · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My father taught me binary in the early seventies when I was still in elementary school, with black marbles and a grey egg carton. I got it right away. Numbers were one thing, representations of numbers was another thing, and these could be whatever you found convenient, so long as you obeyed certain rules (I wasn't so accelerated that I immediately started banging out Euclid's Elements on the piano).

    Then I thought really hard one Saturday afternoon about fractions (on the unit interval, which I thought of as positive integers with the numerator greater than the denominator), and discovered that even though there are a lot of them, it is possible to enumerate them exhaustively, though not by the traditional "counting up" procedure, which got me hooked into the problem of the common divisor thing.

    The next project I recall was to exhaustive write out the Tic Tac Toe game tree. Since I was a lazy bastard (always have been) this involving thinking very hard about something somewhat like symmetry groups.

    Over the annual summer visit to my grandparents—small town prairie Badlands without the cool geography, though often we managed a trip to see the hoodoos—I played a lot of solitaire on the golden-green shag carpet which Puss Puss—the duodecarian house cat who lived in the shadows under my grandparent's bed (the short duration of our visits was probably for her sake)—sometimes preferred in her dotage over asking out into the Canadian winter. Quite undeterred by the sticky and/or stinky patches, I managed to clearly formulate the concept of a "decision procedure" and that such a thing could be unambiguously specified; furthermore, I worked out (at first empirically) that the greedy algorithm was provably not optimal for Klondike (for me at that time, all Solitaire was just "Solitaire", though I knew several).

    At age ten, the boundary between empiricism and proof is still a fuzzy one.

    In grade five, I spent a lot of time (by myself) trying to puzzle out the rate-limiting step in long-hand square root. I had by then also discovered E=IR and P=IE. Pretty soon I had determined that this generates 4 choose 1 times 4 choose 2 simple algebraic forms. But for an entire painful week, some kind of thick cloud entered my brain and I couldn't reliably write all the forms down without a lot of mucking around; this I knew to be completely bogus, and a permanent blot on my record. By the time the cloud passed, I was pretty good at substitution and gathering. Later, when I first encountered a matrix (don't recall), I immediately went to myself "oh, that's just algebra, better organized". At least something stuck.

    Now, during this entire period of my life, I was in a constant state of deeply repressed rage about this thing called "school", with all the inherent stimulation of Puss Puss waiting out the daily bedtime / ultimate final departure of the grandchildren (geriatric cat yay!) from the furthest dark remove under the master bed.

    Grade six came as a shock. For the first time I experienced a math teacher who believed in letting kids learn at their own natural rate. He quickly put four of us a private work program. We could go as fast as we wanted, but the rule was we had to do all of the tedious exercises at the end of every chapter. Many of these exercises were heavy on the pencil work, so I only made it through grades six, seven, eight, and nine. My fingers put in about 90% of the work (this is not actually a bad thing), and my brain put in the other 10% (this being 100 times more than 0.1%). Awesome!

    So I was armed, locked, and loaded for bear when I showed up at the beginning of grade seven. I figured I could knock off ten, eleven, twelve by Easter, and still have a month left over for real math at long last.

    Problem: my grade seven teacher thought my purpose in life was to sit enthralled by his boring lectures. Shields up! I don't recall a single thing he wrote on the board

    1. Re:Journey to the Center of Dearth by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      If we let you get ahead, that's isomorphic to letting the other guy get behind. And we can't have that.

    2. Re:Journey to the Center of Dearth by epine · · Score: 1

      Whoops. Four choose one times three choose two. My fingers sometimes get the best of me.

    3. Re:Journey to the Center of Dearth by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      My father taught me binary in the early seventies when I was still in elementary school, with black marbles and a grey egg carton. I got it right away. Numbers were one thing, representations of numbers was another thing, and these could be whatever you found convenient, so long as you obeyed certain rules

      This is why the Japanese start on the Soroban and then move the damn thing out of the classroom.

    4. Re:Journey to the Center of Dearth by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Guys we get it: you are all special flowers with a high ability for math. This does not apply to 99.9999% of the population. You are probably autistic. What Common Core addresses is the 99.9999% of the population who are not like you.

    5. Re:Journey to the Center of Dearth by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      I didn't have it quite that bad, but vaguely similar. My 6th grade math teacher realized I didn't need to be there and assigned me self-paced algebra instead. I was lazy, but eventually worked through quite a bit of the book. Then 7th grade came, and I was back in pre-algebra, before 8th grade had algebra again. I dealt with the boredom by reading novels through all of 7th and half of 8th grade (before it got ahead of where I had been) math. The teacher for 7-8 had mixed feelings, sometimes just letting me space out, other times pestering me to pay attention. She at least liked me, and supported me in the after-school math program, where I was an enthusiastic participant.

      Random mathematical inquiry that you might enjoy: I once spent a road trip mucking around with a system of turning multiplication problems into subtraction problems, using the average and difference of two numbers and their squares. Perhaps better explained by example: I noticed that a pattern held where if you started with a number and squared it (for instance, 8 x 8 = 64) but then shifted the numbers up and down by 1 (9 x 7) the product was 1 less than the perfect square. If shifted by 2 (10 x 6) the product was 4 less, if shifted by 3 the product was 9 less (11 x 5 = 55), and so on, and this pattern held no matter what number you started with. Maybe a pointless trick, but a neat pattern, and I figured maybe someday I could win a bar bet by knowing that 254 x 258 is exactly 4 less than the square of 256 x 256, or that 195 x 205 is 25 less than 40,000.

      It doesn't work so well if the numbers aren't an even number of steps apart, though, so most of the time was spent inventing placeholder techniques to compensate. For example, with 9 x 6 do I drop down it to an 8x6 problem and then make a note to add back in an 8, or do I bump it up to a 9x7 problem and then make a note to subtract the 9?

    6. Re:Journey to the Center of Dearth by junkgoof · · Score: 2

      8 * 8 =64

      x * x =x ^2

      (x-1)(x+1)=x^2 +x -x -1 = x^2 -1



      Should work for any numbers...



      (x-2)(x+2)=x^2 - 4



      And so forth. Algebra...

      --
      You got me into this! You were the ideologue! I'm only a poor assassin! - Twenty evocations, Bruce Sterling
    7. Re:Journey to the Center of Dearth by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      Yep. Once I got out of the car, I sat down and wrote out the proof, which was indeed pretty simple algebra. Then I played around with some visual representations of the squares and other multiples using graph paper, which was briefly entertaining but not as educational. The main thing I kept from it was the mnemonic trick for occasional shortcuts. Sometimes it's easier to remember perfect squares or do a little subtraction in your head than to multiply large numbers.

  17. Math education turns students off! by ErichTheRed · · Score: 1

    I remember elementary and high school math from the 80s and early 90s. It was an endless cycle of memorization of procedures and formulas, with very little emphasis on the real utility of it all. In particular, I remember plane geometry proofs that barely made sense to me -- I can't imagine what someone who was bad at math or disinterested thought of those. That, and the algebra manipulation phase (factoring, quadratic equations, etc.) I will always remember that x = (-b +/- sqrt(b^2 - 4ac)) / 2a -- for some reason. :-)

    Here's a question for math lovers -- what needs to be taught differently in early math so that students will enjoy it? I know the only time I ever got interested in math was later on, using it in science courses to solve actual problems. Everything before that was just operations. The problem was that being behind in math kept me from doing well in engineering coursework. Contrast this with my eventual degree in chemistry -- I had a great high school chemistry teacher and really caught onto it immediately, probably because it wasn't as math heavy until physical chemistry and analysis courses. Most people barely understand chemistry and consider it something they pass once and never see again. Is it really just as simple as good initial teaching? What makes math interesting?

    1. Re:Math education turns students off! by Pollux · · Score: 1

      what needs to be taught differently in early math so that students will enjoy it?

      Here's my answer...from the perspective of a licensed math teacher in the state of Minnesota, plus the father of a two-year-old and an 18-year-old...

      1) Teach parents how to teach their children. As a teacher, when I conferenced with parents, there was always a high likelihood that students that struggled with math had parents struggle as well. (And they would openly admit this, sometimes even with pride. It was very common for parents to say things like, "I don't get the stuff myself, and I'm doing fine, so why does my child need to learn it?) With my 18-year-old, every question he asked about math, I could answer, so nothing held him back. My 18-year-old isn't brilliant in math, but he's not afraid of it and knows how to use it.

      2) Teach elementary teachers how to teach their students. In the US, most elementary teachers are general educators responsible to instruct in all subject areas. Teachers who are disinterested in one or more of those areas, especially mathematics, do not display the enthusiasm and joy that teachers need to radiate for students to absorb. In addition, those teachers lack a deep understanding of the subject which is necessary even at the elementary level to answer all the questions children have on the subject. (I myself had one teacher in 3rd grade who often responded to my questions with, "Because that's the way it works, dear.")

      3) Fix and enrich the curriculum. American curricula is difficult and frustrating, because it is "created" by state governments but authored and published by private textbook companies. The left hand never really understands what the right hand is doing. In addition, neither body really has any true educational knowledge or experience, leaving the final product often minimal, inconsistent, and unpractical, not to mention unpalatable. Finally, it continues to change each election cycle, making teaching it that much more difficult.

      4) Empower teachers as professionals. Even with a poor curriculum, It's up to each and every school and even teacher to decide how to teach the course material, as long as standards are followed. So, each and every day across the country teachers have to reinvent the wheel, finding their own way of making their lessons effective. Teach teachers how to evaluate the efficacy of lessons, and give them time to collaborate with their fellow teachers, within their district and within their state, to evolve the curriculum in a way that works not just in one classroom, but in thousands.

    2. Re:Math education turns students off! by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      I would imagine it varies a lot from person to person. I really liked patterns, for one. Any time a sequence or series came up, I really enjoyed it. And the shapes, in geometry, but absolutely not the proofs. One of my favorite moments came in 5th grade, learning about different bases, and converting from one to another. I told myself then, "This is so much fun, I wish I could do it as a job." Curiously enough, a decade later I landed a job doing web design and did get to occasionally translate between decimal and hexidecimal for HTML colors. You could call it a dream come true, though I think some of the joy of converting bases had faded by then.

  18. Education all wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with education is that it focuses on teaching subjects to students instead of teaching students HOW to learn. If schools would focus on teaching kids how to learn, how to reason things out, and how to research, the knowledge would come naturally from their innate curiosity. Of course, schools should guide their learning to make sure they get some minimum acceptable level of training in basics like math, grammar, history, etc.

  19. Ironically its because common core sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the article:

    "Participation in math camps, after-school or weekend math "academies," and math competitions has surged in recent years, with many programs having long wait lists."

    Common core and the Chicago math are so bad and cause so much frustration that a lot of parents are getting outside tutoring. After talking to a couple of private math tutors, I would say about 20-30% of my kid's peers in a middle class suburban Chicago neighborhood. I also know an executive at Kuman and their business is booming. I would bet money the kids excelling in these contests are, ironically, excelling because common core sucks so bad people are fleeing it.

    If you ever want to hear parents bitch about their kid's education just ask about grade school math.

    1. Re:Ironically its because common core sucks by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      Actually probably the issue is that Common Core is exposing that kids aren't learning it, so they need extra help. Nothing wrong with that. Previously you had no idea who was learning and who wasn't. Parents bitch because they don't understand it, and haven't bothered to research it.

    2. Re:Ironically its because common core sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I also know an executive at Kuman and their business is booming."

      I wonder why. Isn't Kumon just a forced memorization of problem solving techniques similar to the way math was taught prior to Common Core? I observed a Kumon class because we were looking into it for our son, and "solving math problems at gunpoint with a timer" is pretty much the impression I got. This is good because it makes it easier to do the math quickly on standardized tests like the SAT where you don't have a calculator, but does it actually impart knowledge?

    3. Re:Ironically its because common core sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Parents bitch because they don't understand it, and haven't bothered to research it."

      That is such a flippant remark and one of the biggest issues with the approach. Lets just throw away all the institutional knowledge that the parents have to help teach their kids and use a new method most parents do not understand. My wife and I go out of our way to understand the approaches and to explain the approaches to our kids, but most kids don't have two parents who are engineers. When I talk to other parents they simply do not have the time and, in many cases, the desire to learn the new methods, but they can teach their kids what they learned and why it works. They start looking at, for example, the matrix multiplication method and quickly see that it is unwieldy on anything but a trivial multiplication problem. The kids pick up on this and learn to hate a lot of these inferior algorithms.

      The second biggest problems with common core/everyday math is that kids in grade school are bombarded with different methods to solve math problems but never learn any one method proficiently. It sounds like a good thing to learn a lot of different methods, but it has some real drawbacks:
            * kids simply do no have enough repetition and only learn things skin deep. A typical subject is taught like this:
                    - learn a subject for a week. Do a few dozen problems homework (not nearly enough to understand the subject). Kids sort of get it, but its time to move on.
                    - start another subject for a week.
                    - revisit first subject three weeks later with three review problems at the bottom of a different sheet of homework.
                              * This part would actually be great if they had learned it the first time, but instead they learn it skin-deep again to do those three problems and forget it.
                    - When you have to teach four different ways to do multiplication in a few months (for example) the kids end up never have time to fully understand any of them.
            * kids learn the long way first and don't have incentive to learn faster ways.
                  - My son's peers in advanced math are still doing the matrix multiplication method.
                  - Tests with relatively simple solutions end up taking multiple class periods because kids can't do the arithmetic quickly
            * It might have some value if the kids learned/understood why all the different methods work and lead to the same answer, but instead they all seem to still boil it down to memorizing different techniques. It does not translate into actual understanding.

      Parents end up realizing that their kids didn't learn the basics well enough. That is when they go to Kuman and private tutors, etc.

    4. Re:Ironically its because common core sucks by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      They don't understand it because like my early education they were taught memorization, not problem solving. Common core focuses on the later, not the former.

    5. Re:Ironically its because common core sucks by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Well guess what? The "institutional knowledge" that parents have WAS NOT WORKING. Education was been going downhill, especially in Math. Sorry you have to learn something new, but we need to try something different and move on. I am glad kids are seeking out tutors and Kumon. They probably need it if they aren't learning the basics in school. It isn't a failure of Common Core. It is just some kids are slower learners.

    6. Re:Ironically its because common core sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What works is practice. You can thank Huntington, Kuman, private tutors and Khan for that. If Everyday Math is so successful, why have these things grown so much (well, save for Khan) over the past 15 years? No kids I knew growing up had a private math tutor - and many of them went into math or the sciences. Now my small suburb has Huntington, Kuman, and Mathnasium as well as many private tutors.

    7. Re:Ironically its because common core sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't understand it because like my early education they were taught memorization, not problem solving. Common core focuses on the later, not the former.

      That's all and good for early education, but what the hell is the adult excuse for not quite understanding something rooted in problem solving?

      Those experienced enough in life would understand it's nothing but one big fucking ball of problems to solve. Every damn day.

    8. Re:Ironically its because common core sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The matrix multiplication is the same as the usual carrying, just aligned diagonally rather than vertically. It should not take his classmates any longer than it would him, assuming it is complex enough assuming it is something bigger than cached times tables allows for.

  20. US has always placed well !!! by tommeke100 · · Score: 1

    Okay they won in 2015, congrats! But these are their results going back to '74 when they first participated:
    1 2 3 3 2 3 6 3 5 5 2 2 3 3 2 3 10 3 4 2 11 1 7 2 5 3 5 6 5 1 2 4 2 3 1 5 2 1 3 3 2
    They pretty much always were top 3. Looking at other countries, only China has a better track-record coming in 1st often. Other countries placing well historically are Russia and South-Korea, but on average the US seems to do better (historically I would say 2nd after China).
    So really, the are making a moot point. It's like saying the US must have really fit and healthy people, since they win a lot of medals at the Summer Olympics.

    1. Re:US has always placed well !!! by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think it's reading WAY to much into it to say that they placed well because the US education system has improved.

  21. "fuzzy math" with letters instead of numbers by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    "Melvin’s comments led Sen. David Bradley, D-Tucson, to ask him whether he’s actually read the Common Core standards, which have been adopted by 45 states.

    “I’ve been exposed to them,” Melvin responded.

    Pressed by Bradley for specifics, Melvin said he understands “some of the reading material is borderline pornographic.” And he said the program uses “fuzzy math,” substituting letters for numbers in some examples".

    http://tucson.com/news/local/e...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  22. Revolution? by ITRambo · · Score: 1

    That's rich. It seems that every ten years or so some person or group finds a way to revolution math or math education. Yet, nothing changes except for American education being dumbed down more with every "revolution".

    1. Re:Revolution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's rich. It seems that every ten years or so some person or group finds a way to revolution math or math education. Yet, nothing changes except for American education being dumbed down more with every "revolution".

      I agree. There is much to be appreciated and learned about the historical underpinnings of the edudoctrination system. The faux "new" attitudinal approach to education is not academic in any way and definitely isn't new. It is just the next phase of centrally planned indoctrination, a trend where scholastic precision is the very antithesis of its goal, absolute subjugation. Parents and children are increasingly divided in each generation by this system. We're screwed if we don't counteract this by actually educating parents and children as individuals instead of as cogs in the wheel.

  23. A basic literacy revolution would be nice too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Judging by the number of individuals who seem to be unable to learn when to use "its", "it's", "whose", "who's", etc. a basic literacy revolution might be welcome. How can you actually get a high-school diploma without ever mastering something as straightforward as that?

  24. the whole country turns maths then by buffet_caterer · · Score: 1

    A country of brainy maths geeks??? Wow... Can only be a good thing I suppose as the dollars in the red keep pilling up for the nation... someone needs to make sense of the countries financial maths

    --
    Well lived, well enjoyed
  25. Not quite a revolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would hesitate to call "wealthy parents have better options for the education of their children" a revolution. It's pretty much the way it's always been.

  26. Stop repeating what idiots say on Fox. by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    At first I thought the Common Core was dumb after my elementary school child showed me what he was doing, but after researching the teaching methods I know understand the reasoning behind techniques they are using.

    Clearly you need to do a bit more research. Common core isn't about methods or techniques at all.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    "The standards do not dictate any particular pedagogy or what order topics should be taught within a particular grade level."

    http://www.corestandards.org/a...

    "That is why these standards establish what students need to learn but do not dictate how teachers should teach. Instead, schools and teachers will decide how best to help students reach the standards."

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Stop repeating what idiots say on Fox. by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      In the real world "Common Core" is more than "Common Standards". It is sold as a parcel. Don't be such a pedant.

      Example: http://www.corestandards.org/M...

  27. Aptitude, no after school activities not required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My daughter is a product of public school education. In the 4th grade the math teacher and gifted teacher recognized her math ability. She had already skipped a grade, and then she started skipping math. She graduated public high school at age 15 and is now in college. A 5 on AP Calc, and more summer calc, means after her first year of college, she is finished with all engineering math including differential equations.

    Involved parents, and involved teachers is what it takes, but it helps if parents are educated too and can understand that keeping a child challenged is better then straight A's (though in our case she still graduated with honors, 10th in class, and over a 4.0). We never did after school or summer programs. My daughter has an aptitude for math, but her parents did too, she just surpassed us.

    And yes, better math skills, usually lead to better college and eventually better income.

  28. it's the diversity obviously. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah, now I get it. Looking at that picture it's suddenly clear that it's all of the brilliant black and brown students reinvigorating American mathematics and rescuing it from the stupid white and Asian kids that have been keeping America behind the rest of the world.

  29. LIAR LIAR by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Or did you just get mad

    Stop lying.

    tell him to get bent?

    Stop lying.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  30. How in a country that looks down on math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm impressed that 1/3 of that team is white... was expecting all Asians.

    Isaac Newton died a virgin. nuff said.

  31. One word to describe fucktards like you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Baaaaaa

  32. Taking the smart kids out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More schools are taking out the smart kids and putting them in better programs. Only revolution I see.