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NASA Aeronautics Budget Proposes Return Of X-Planes (phys.org)

If President Obama's recently released federal budget request is approved for the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1, 2016, next year will be the first in a bold 10-year plan by NASA Aeronautics to achieve huge goals in reducing fuel use, emissions, and noise by the way aircraft are designed, and the way they operate in the air and on the ground.

One exciting piece of this 10-year plan is New Aviation Horizons -- an ambitious undertaking by NASA to design, build and fly a variety of flight demonstration vehicles, or "X-planes." The demos included advancements in lightweight composite materials that are needed to create revolutionary aircraft structures, an advanced fan design to improve propulsion and reduce noise in jet engines, designs to reduce noise from wing flaps and landing gear, shape-changing wing flaps, and even coating to prevent bug residue buildup on wings.

74 comments

  1. More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    corporate welfare.

    1. Re: More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their kind should be sterilized in the interests of evolution.

    2. Re: More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is too late for their kind.

    3. Re:More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same AC here. Republicans want us to die. To die. They showed up in my town. The pukianz made me stop having sex with goats in public. I used to go to the farms near town and suck horse dick when their owners weren't around. The vile Republicans made me stop that, too. Who do they think they are? They just hate us all and want us all to die. Their kind is evil and made me stop having sex with goats and horses.

    4. Re: More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Republicans will send those plans to kill and rape us.

    5. Re:More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, we just want YOU to die. Preferably in a car wreck...pinned in while you burn to death.

    6. Re:More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if goats and horses are off-limits, couldn't you just switch to pigs? It's not like there's a shortage of pig-cock.

    7. Re: More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there is one thing I know, it's you don't want to fuck a pig. One time. One time! And I'll be forever Pig Fucker Barry.

    8. Re: More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well someone has to stop you Libertarians.

    9. Re: More disgusting Republican... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wouldn't that be Pig Fucker Cameron?

  2. false premise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think they actually stopped doing X-planes. It's just that the recent batch weren't heavily publicized.

  3. Beware of hacked ISOs if you downloaded Linux Mint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Beware of hacked ISOs if you downloaded Linux Mint on February 20th, 2016!

    #####

    "I'm sorry I have to come with bad news.[1]

    We were exposed to an intrusion today. It was brief and it shouldn't impact many people, but if it impacts you, it's very important you read the information below.

    What happened?

    Hackers made a modified Linux Mint ISO, with a backdoor in it, and managed to hack our website to point to it.

    Does this affect you?

    As far as we know, the only compromised edition was Linux Mint 17.3 Cinnamon edition.

    If you downloaded another release or another edition, this does not affect you. If you downloaded via torrents or via a direct HTTP link, this doesn't affect you either.

    Finally, the situation happened today, so it should only impact people who downloaded this edition on February 20th.

    How to check if your ISO is compromised?"

    Continued @: http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2...

    [1] Written by Clem on Sunday, February 21st, 2016 @ 1:44 am

    #####

    https://news.ycombinator.com/i...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/linux...

    https://lwn.net/Articles/67661...

    https://twitter.com/Linux_Mint...

  4. Fantasy by imidan · · Score: 1

    If President Obama's recently released federal budget request is approved

    Okay, that's all we need to read of this article.

  5. About time by hyades1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For far too long, the US Congress has whored itself out to aerospace corporations that have paid more attention to making sure some part of their grossly-overpriced new plane was built in every district in the country than building a plane that actually worked stretched the limits of what was possible.

    Is there anything in the air today that can compare to the X-15 or the Blackbird? What has the US accomplished in the last 50 years that can even touch those accomplishments? And when was the last time an astronaut went further into space than anybody with a half-assed camera and a cheap pair of binoculars can photograph?

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    1. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The SR-71 Blackbird was a product of Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works division.

      I can't tell whether your comment is anti Military Industrial Complex, or anti Pork Barrel Spending (the same kind of spending that got the Challenger astronauts killed), so I'm mentioning the origins of the Blackbird, just in case your comment is the former type of comment.

    2. Re:About time by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, the X-15 was an experimental aircraft, the capabilities of which we understand enough today to not need to repeat - our current technological limit that is being tested is air breathing hypersonic aircraft, not rocket propelled hypersonic aircraft. Rocket propelled hypersonics are a "solved problem", so why do we need to keep spending money there?

      The SR-71 can be equaled or exceeded by several countries today, but the reality is that it was a costly aircraft that was superseded by satellites and the aircraft it was intended to replace (the U-2). If a mission requirement for the SR-71 was ever to come around again, a new aircraft will be built - and as it stands, feasability studies are being undertaken into a hypersonic SR-72... The SR-71 simply outlived its usefulness, and the world moved on.

      Unless you are suggesting the US government should be spending money on useless, ego boosting, prestige projects rather than actually advancing technology across a broader range of areas, what do you suggest should be being done?

    3. Re:About time by tarpitcod · · Score: 2

      There is no publicly acknowledged air-vehicle with the flight envelope of either the X-15 or the SR-71 in routine operation. Period. There are other platforms that can perform SOME of the operational capabilities of the Blackbird.

      I agree 100% on the air-breathing, hypersonic air-breathing being hard - but if we had continued working on air-vehicles like the X-7 "Flying stove pipe" who knows where we would be now.

      I'm not quite sure what you mean by "ego projects". Many projects that critics would throw those terms at gave us useful everyday technologies. The X-15 was an early example of fly-by-wire. High temperature ceramics and plastics have many uses too.

      I myself wouldn't call the Blackbird and OXCART an ego related exercise at all. The entire aim was to provide a survivable rapidly re-targettable (faster than spy birds) recon platform. Knowing what the other guy has is valuable. It's especially valuable if that guy detonated the largest hydrogen-bomb ever in the atmosphere and has an ideology based around crushing you and your allies.

      I'd end by saying there is no acknowledged replacement for OXCART. The black budget is big. Secrets can be kept. If there's a successor to OXCART that's fine by me. I hope they keep it secret too, and I hope it provides intelligence that could allow the deployment of assets to dissuade any potential parties from rolling tanks into countries -"To save their ethnic countrymen" possibly triggering a wider conflict with potentially horrendous consequences.

      Frankly I wish relations were better with Russia, but that's another story/post.

    4. Re:About time by rbrander · · Score: 1

      I don't see that the two kinds of comments are mutually exclusive; indeed, I'm not sure they aren't the same complaint. Without pork barrel spending, there would be NO military-industrial complex.
      I may be misunderstanding the original complaint, but certainly MINE is that the MIC is almost bewilderingly inefficient. You can get away with that DURING a war, but after WW2, only the propaganda that there was a "cold war" still on made it acceptable to the public...and then they handed THAT insanely inefficient system the job of inventing space travel.
      Yes, by spending absolute rivers of cash, they got something done, but the inefficiency only increased when they did; it's been steadily increasing since Eisenhower put his finger on it just at the start of the space program and by the end of the 60's, their R&D was so expensive that *without* 5% of the entire national budget, NASA couldn't do anything, couldn't even keep Skylab aloft. They put forward the shuttle as a big money saver and it pretty much took 20,000 people working full time to get ten shuttles up per year (after promising 60). It ended up at $1.5 billion per flight, or $563M per astronaut lifted, nearly $100M per person-day in orbit.
      And it didn't get cheaper with time over 30 years! Unlike every other human endeavour, they could find no efficiencies.
      Now private concerns are going into space having researched and built new vehicles on a budget that NASA spends on paperwork.
      NASA funding is 19 billion a year; even with inflation, that's 75% the budget of the Manhattan Project, 1939-1945. And for that, they can't even get a person into space at the moment. They haven't been able to put a human into orbit since 2011; about 90 billion dollars ago.
      There is just something fundamentally WRONG with these numbers. Going "Waah, going into space is really hard" doesn't cut it for me. Inventing an air travel industry was also hard and took a lot of engineering. Inventing 300,000 tonne supercargo carriers took some engineering, too. I simply can't believe that the vast majority of funds that the starry-eyed public has invested in the dream of space travel haven't been wasted and siphoned off into profits by a monumentally inefficient bureaucracy.

    5. Re:About time by rbrander · · Score: 1

      Yikes, sorry, more like $30M/person-day in orbit; there were only 350-ish astronauts total but I forgot some went up many times. Maybe they got it down below $2M per astronaut-working-hour in space, I think my point remains the same.

    6. Re:About time by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      No, my comment wasn't anti-military. My problem is with the lack of game-changers.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    7. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The blackbird could not perform its primary mission anymore since it is not stealthy enough to fly over the likes of Russia or China without being detected nor threatened. We have to make due with satellites and other sorts of monitoring from international airspace or (one assumes) ground based spies. The acknowledged Air Force space planes and their ilk may be the way forward from conventional satellites...?

      For other non-superpower scenarios, there are much cheaper and more effective options than a blackbird. Drones provide omnipresent monitoring over actual combat areas. Air superiority and our peacetime access to airspace all over the world means we can also use many other cheap options for missions just about everywhere except overflight of the the much larger Russian and Chinese land masses.

      Similarly, the old U-2 outlived the blackbird because it can still do the high altitude stuff once you've removed the very high speed or stealth requirements that were sufficiently met by the blackbird program for only a brief point in history.

    8. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Pork barrel spending didn't get the Challenger astronauts killed. What got them killed was people trying to please an administration obsessed with PR, plus corporate management. No, Reagan didn't personally order them to fly and as much as I think he was the worst thing that ever happened to the US I truly think he would have told them not to had he been informed of the situation. He was not. His handlers though were evil people who just wanted their PR stunt and I'm certain NASA knew that without actual orders what was and wasn't good for careers and their funding.

      Private industry was just doing what it does. Following the 'management is always right' philosophy and ignoring people who knew better--and when the disaster happened they did what any responsible corporation would do. They changed their name.

      So basically American capitalism and it's promoters at work again.

    9. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Pork barrel spending didn't get the Challenger astronauts killed."

      It *did* get them killed.

      The STS's main fuel tank was too large to be moved from its construction site in Utah to Florida in one piece. So, it had be divided into three pieces to make the trip. Those pieces were joined with -among other things- O-rings.

      Had the STS's main fuel tank been built on-site in Florida, rather than off-site so that Senator Hatch could bring home the bacon to his home state, the tank would have been _one_ piece. Thus, there would have been no O-ring failure. Thus, Challenger would not have failed in the way that it did.

      Honestly, if we want to get pointed with our blames, Senator Hatch is a major contributor to the loss of the Challenger and the death of all aboard.

    10. Re: About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be the SRB, not the fuel tank.

    11. Re:About time by tarpitcod · · Score: 1

      Agreed - the Blackbird is obsolete for its original purpose, drones provide a better solution in many cases. My main point was the Blackbird and X-15 weren't just useless "ego projects". The technologies were valuable, and missions performed by the Blackbirds had significant national security value at the time they were deployed.

      Let's not forget the Blackbirds were brought back out of retirement at considerable cost too.

      Characterizing a platform which provided a way to de-escalate conflict through timely intelligence an "ego project" is crazy. It's the kind of thinking that results in minimizing the very capabilities that you need to avoid ending up in a hot war.

    12. Re:About time by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      You misunderstand my original post - the X-15 and the SR-71 fulfilled needs and requirements at the time, and thus were not ego projects.

      However, the poster I replied to asked "Is there anything in the air today that can compare to the X-15 or the Blackbird?"

      Both the X-15 and the SR-71 were retired because they outlived their needs and requirements - we moved on from the rocket propelled hypersonic X-15 because we learned everything we needed to from it, the next step for the project was to actually launch it into space but that was cancelled in favour of Gemini.

      The X-15 did have a modern comparison, it was custom built for a specific job and was retired once it had completed that job - SpaceShipOne.

      The SR-71 was massively expensive per flight hour, in the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was a very very costly aircraft to operate, and as such it was surpassed by developments in satellites and other capabilities. The U-2 was kept on in order to fulfil the capability that satellites could not cover, so it outlasted its successor.

      Both platforms are no longer flying today because their need ended - and thats why we don't have anything that can compare to them today, because our current goal is not to have something comparable but have something that beats the socks off of both aircraft. We want air breathing hypersonic aircraft, which are several orders of magnitude harder to get right than sticking a big rocket on the back of some wings (not to diminish their accomplishments, but the teams working on air breathing hypersonics have a much harder job to do).

      To simply create something that compares to the X-15 and the SR-71 today just to have something that compares, that would be the ego projects I am talking about - they are not needed, they are costly, they achieve little over the current platforms, so building them when there is no clear and present need would make them little more than ego boosting and prestige projects.

      So today we have programs such as the unmanned X-51 Wave Rider, which is firmly based in scientific need - you won't see people thinking its as cool as either the X-15 or the SR-71, but its on the path to solving problems much harder than either of those two aircraft faced during its development.

    13. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, we've simply made do without its capabilities, capabilities that were extremely relevant during an ongoing cold war, but not so much during somelike like GWOT. satellites are in known orbits and expensive to retask, largely being committed already to specific missions, meaning you have to compromise other points of interest in doing so. the U2 is slow...and hasn't overflown hostile countries more advanced than Afghanistan in decades. the blackbird could get anywhere in the planet take its pictures and return in a matter of hours, overflying nearly any threat with impunity. it had a flexibility and ondemand capability that is still unmatched to this day.

  6. why budget reducing emission in outerspace ? by amyreyna · · Score: 1

    Why they spend the budget to create aircraft emission in outerspace ? We need to reduce the emission on our earth

    1. Re:why budget reducing emission in outerspace ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You keep using that word, "outerspace". Why? This article writes aircraft, wing flaps, landing gear, bug residue. But it doesn't say outer space. That's only in your imagination.

    2. Re:why budget reducing emission in outerspace ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People read NASA they think outer space.

    3. Re:why budget reducing emission in outerspace ? by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      Well...National *Aeronautics* and Space Administration.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
  7. More weird shaped airplanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Basically, it is saying, more weird shaped, remote controlled x planes, a quiet supersonic x plane, and an x-48 plane big enough to carry humans. Maybe an LNG airplane. All that talk about the x-48 blended wing body is finally going to result in a real product.

    I think high oil prices is the biggest factor driving this research.

    1. Re:More weird shaped airplanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh? Oil is so cheap the container is more expensive...

    2. Re: More weird shaped airplanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem with noise reduction is that each practical noise reduction technique has reduced efficiency substantially. Stage III compliant aircraft lost most of the efficiency gains that were built into the aircraft. They're still better than 80's designs, but not nearly as much as they should be. Continuing enroahcment on airports is the biggest safety problem in aviation, and e response has been to make aircraft less efficient and to require them to fly more dangerous departures.

    3. Re: More weird shaped airplanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, the price of oil is never going to rise again. Also, there will never be any wars in the Mideast, and the oil producing companies will never collude to control production. Let's party!

    4. Re: More weird shaped airplanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meant oil producing countries, of course.

    5. Re:More weird shaped airplanes by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      I think high oil prices is the biggest factor driving this research.

      I think they want automated whisper predator drones that can drop bombs from above while cruising for 48 hours without needing to land.

    6. Re:More weird shaped airplanes by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      I heard once that in a conflict zone a gallon of gasoline costs the military $400. This is because it has to be secured, shipped over there, etc etc etc whatever.

  8. Whole world could had contributed by aliquis · · Score: 1, Insightful

    My country does useless stuff with the tax-payers money but who (ok, maybe someone) didn't wanted to experience space travel in their life time and so on?

    USA & NASA has done so much in the area and I think it would had been ok if other nations such as mine (Sweden in this case) would had chipped in to do even more. ESA may do some but to get the really big things done you need the real big budgets I guess =P.

    Guess the same could be said about say the North korean rockets and the money spent previously in Germany and later in USA vs Russia. Guess there's a benefit in coming up with different designs too but I guess we would had reached further without duplicated efforts.

    As for the big guns isn't that for national (power struggle and might) conflicts whereas maybe the actual human conflicts (self-rule and protection) could had been solved with smaller arms instead.
    Accurately played music for this topic :D https://youtu.be/XNkMzWPbM0o?t...

  9. TFA by Falconhell · · Score: 1

    The anti bug stick stuff would have many aviation applications, where laminar flow is important.
    A sailplane can lose 30% or more performance in increased drag from bugs on the leading edges.

  10. Kanye's approach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Zuckerberg invest 1 billion in Barack Obama ideas

  11. Private sector by slashping · · Score: 1

    This sounds like a project that the private sector should be able to fund all by themselves. The small NASA budgets are better spent on different goals.

    1. Re:Private sector by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The "private sector" will be the first at the trough of public funds, believe it.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    2. Re:Private sector by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      NASA is how the US government funnels a lot of money to Boeing at al that would otherwise be declared as an outright subsidy under WTO rules - NASA basically funded Boeings entire composite fuselage barrel development that they used in the 787.

    3. Re:Private sector by blindseer · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how this is a bad thing. With a public sector funded competition with private sector entities, and perhaps even other public sector entities, as competitors I suspect we'd get the most gain for the least dollars.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
  12. Re:Beware of hacked ISOs if you downloaded Linux M by sims+2 · · Score: 1

    Wow now thats news good thing I read at -1 or I'd have missed that. /. News for nerds just a bit on the slow side nowadays. From the blog it says they had to shut the server down following a second attack it was a Wordpress vuln.

    --
    Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
  13. Progress by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is there anything in the air today that can compare to the X-15 or the Blackbird?

    Sure. On what specific basis are you comparing? Speed? Stealth? Utility? Efficiency? Avionics? Reliability? I'd be happy to provide you examples in any specific category you care to mention. We retired the Blackbird because we've exceeded what it could do in most ways. The X15 was an experiment and we've long since had the capability to exceed what it can do in literally every respect. What is the point of duplicating it today? Sure they were cool and cutting edge for their time but that time was a loooong time ago.

    Furthermore remember that some of the most advanced stuff is still classified. We didn't know much about the SR71 for much of its early operational history. Stuff like the B2 and F117 were almost complete surprises when they were unveiled. Quite likely there is some pretty nifty classified stuff the US military is working on that we know little/nothing about.

    What has the US accomplished in the last 50 years that can even touch those accomplishments?

    Plenty! Just off the top of my head: Stealth, hypersonic aircraft, drones, private spacecraft, engine efficiency/power, avionics, GPS, the list goes on and on and on. If you think we haven't exceeded the SR-71 or the X15 then you haven't been paying attention. Just because we aren't making drop-in replacements for vehicles whose service life is complete doesn't mean we aren't progressing.

    And when was the last time an astronaut went further into space than anybody with a half-assed camera and a cheap pair of binoculars can photograph?

    1972 but you knew that. Unclear what that has to do with experimental aircraft.

    1. Re:Progress by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      drones,

      Drones aren't new, they're just cheap now. We've had drones since before WWII. The V1 bombs were drones. Here's a cool picture of 4 engined prop driven drones flying in formation and looking amazingly badass in 1946:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Yep in case you're wondering they're B-17 bombers retrofitted with remote control hardware for operation as drones.

      Here's a full sized floatplane drone from 1936:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Some of the drones are remote controlled, others, like the V1 were fully autonomous (even though one crazy test pilot actually managed to fly one without dying). The main improvements have been GPS (absolute positioning) and of course everything getting generally cheaper and better.

      A particularly early one is a late WWI vintage biplane modified for drone operation:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Wow actually speaking of which, the history is pretty cool. Anyway if you plan on crashing your drone into something rather than landint it, it's called a cruise missile nowadays, though the distinction post dates the idea.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Apparently they were able to build a fully autonomous autopilot in 1927. I would love to find more details about that one, it must have stretched the technology of they day very far. I'll bet that is full of deep cunning

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:Progress by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      I probably should have expressed myself more clearly. I meant that the US hasn't done anything revolutionary in aviation/space in a very long time.

      Where are the game-changers? A hypersonic plane? Really? Great description of the X-15. Meanwhile, there have been no manned missions beyond a point we've been able to reach reliably since the 1950's. GPS? You're proving my point! The concept was understood since before Sputnik, and it was first implemented 40 years ago. "Utility, efficiency, reliability"...Buzz words that essentially mean "more of the same but a little bit better". And none of them apply to the F-35, which is supposed to be the current incarnation of all that's best in US aerospace.

      It isn't. It's a pretty little trailer queen that sucked a trillion dollars worth of air out of the room. Its so-called stealth is a joke, and it keeps catching fire on the runway and melting into a puddle of slag.

      Also I have to say I disagree with your assertion that satellites can replace the SR-71. They don't have the same flexibility...not even close.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    3. Re:Progress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Satellites plus drones can replace the SR-71. Drones can go all the places SR-71 can go without being shot down or otherwise causing an international incident. You don't need to haul ass to get somewhere and take a few photos when you can instead just park drones everywhere and all the time. Satellites can peer into Russia and China, which the SR-71 could not do anymore.

    4. Re:Progress by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Ah... I think I see your problem(s). Let's start with what I think is the root of the problem.

      Only the media (and not even all of them) made the mistake of thinking that the F-35 was supposed to be the "best in US aerospace." Not even close - it was known that it would not be the fastest, the most stealthy, the best fighter, or the best at anything. In fact, it's pretty much what was expected and given a whole lot of extra scrutiny and yellow journalism.

      If I'm reading you correctly, that's the root of all your problems. You don't appear to understand the objectives, limitations, complexities, methods, or environment. Like most things, it's complicated. The F-35 is a good example. The F-35 was never meant to be, and will never be, what you're expecting. Being the best has absolutely nothing to do with the F-35. It was never a design goal, that's an impossible design goal. Once you get past that, you'll probably see where some of your other problems originate.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    5. Re:Progress by khallow · · Score: 1

      Being the best has absolutely nothing to do with the F-35.

      If we ignore the corruption that's the real driver of the program and just take the plane at face value, then it had better be the best at what it does, given the money spent on it.

    6. Re:Progress by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I am told that, if it has the anticipated numbers built, it will be cheaper than many other options that were/would be available at the current levels of tech and engineering. How true that is, I do not know. The numbers are greater than purchase price. I can not swear to the veracity of those statements. However, the per-plane price, as the TCO, is supposed to be less expensive than what other options are available for a plane that serves those functions.

      Nobody, for example, expects a plane that is a "jack of all trades" to be anything other than a "master of none." Well, nobody but journalists and people that listened to them think that. They don't expect the development and roll-out to be cheap. They don't expect them to be without flaws and without the need to make adjustments. They don't expect them to be better suited for individual roles than dedicated devices.

      Military equipment is not just expensive to purchase, it is expensive to maintain. And it all needs to be maintained at a state of readiness that has some variation but it's generally good to have as much as possible on immediate stand-by or close to that level. They need to be kept in absolute peak condition, at nearly all times, and able to be fielded quickly and easily. That's expensive. This is supposed to significantly lower those costs and provide a plane that is "good enough" at a variety of roles.

      Most procurements are looked at in a TCO valuation. That even includes human assets. I believe at current levels, an estimated 75% of all military personnel is in support roles. I'd expect similar costs, probably at a greater ratio actually, with equipment that is complicated - such as airplanes. Being able to repair, change production numbers, and make some adjustments that result in a plane for different use cases is supposed to be where the savings are and, looked at logically and citing historical numbers, they're still claiming that it will be less expensive.

      Again, I've no idea how valid their claim is but that's the general idea.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    7. Re:Progress by khallow · · Score: 1

      I am told that, if it has the anticipated numbers built, it will be cheaper than many other options that were/would be available at the current levels of tech and engineering.

      One can say the same of any military airplane. Volume allows costs to go down. The F-22 was supposed to have even better economies of scale.

      Most procurements are looked at in a TCO valuation.

      So what explains the consistent cost overruns?

    8. Re:Progress by KGIII · · Score: 1

      > So what explains the consistent cost overruns?

      Graft, greed, corruption, and incompetence. *sighs* I know I don't have to explain that to you. ;-)

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    9. Re:Progress by khallow · · Score: 1
      My point to this is that we have the official narrative and what actually happens. In addition, we have remarkably low expectations. When you wrote:

      If I'm reading you correctly, that's the root of all your problems. You don't appear to understand the objectives, limitations, complexities, methods, or environment. Like most things, it's complicated. The F-35 is a good example. The F-35 was never meant to be, and will never be, what you're expecting. Being the best has absolutely nothing to do with the F-35. It was never a design goal, that's an impossible design goal. Once you get past that, you'll probably see where some of your other problems originate.

      For the money that was actually spent ($400 billion last I checked), the US should have gotten the best fighter jet of the time (no matter what diminished expectations were stated of the project then or now). In reality, it got yet another vehicle (in a different sense of the word) for transferring public money to private hands.

      Low expectations are a remarkable aspect of US public spending. Where else can you burn $1100 or so per person for over three hundred million people and be happy that you got an overpriced and under-performing jet plane? Another example of this were the loan guarantees for solar thermal and other renewable energy projects. The official story is that the US was expecting to lose 30% of investment. But that ignores that the US made no investment (it's private bankers who did that) and can only lose money by putting out these loan guarantees.

      It also ignores that nobody puts hundreds of millions of dollars of their own money into projects with an expected 30% failure rate. But this is touted as the US funding the programs that private industry can't (even though private industry has plenty of money for this sort of thing, they just aren't stupid).

  14. DOA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The President's budget is DOA.

    1. Re:DOA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, probably the same as what Pelosi did eight years ago. What goes around comes around.

  15. NASA has gone Metrosexual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not faster, higher, bigger any more.

    It's "green" and quiet as to not disturb the environmentalists in the million dollar condos built next to airports.

    This is like NASCAR having a research project on building a self driving car.

    1. Re: NASA has gone Metrosexual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Environmentalists. The reason, and with your attitude the only reason, you don't have to wear a mask when you go outside like they do in China now because capitalism, er, comminism, or whatever they call that industry controlled dictatorship they have over there this week.

    2. Re: NASA has gone Metrosexual by Charcharodon · · Score: 1

      That would be called Socialism or Fascism. That is Communism without the government running all the factories.

    3. Re: NASA has gone Metrosexual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really - you're just ignorant of history. Firms profiting rarely care to research negative externalities of their production methods. Limited people in close proximity to factories and processing centers experience problems first but they are ignored. When the impact on the environment (e.g. DDT) is recognized, there is such a small window of time to act that attempting response without environmentalism fails.

  16. smiling motorcyclists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    would welcome a coating to prevent bug residue buildup.

    1. Re:smiling motorcyclists by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      would welcome a coating to prevent bug residue buildup.

      Um ... it's called a face shield! 8-)

  17. Cool and all by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 1

    But how about going faster or higher? Airlines speeds have plateaued at around 0.85 Mach for the last 50 years. How about cheaper and quieter to go faster?

  18. I remember when... by RecycledElectrons · · Score: 1

    I remember when NASA put men on the moon. Today, NASA is trying to save United and American Airlines (the idiots behind 9/11) some money.

  19. Not gonna happen. Move along...nothing to see here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is an election year and Obama has launched a dead-on-arrival budget that put his usual anti-NASA tactics on steroids.

    In his first NASA budget (proposed in the spring of 2009, as the Fiscal Year 2010 NASA budget), Obama tried to eliminate American manned spaceflight. BOTH parties in the congress rebelled so severely that they did the ONLY truly bi-partisan thing that year - they trashed his 2010 NASA budget and ORDERED him IN LAW to build the SLS rocket, even taking the unusual step of specifying the rocket's performance so he could not build something else and pretend to be obeying the law.

    In every year since the FY2010 budget debacle, Obama has sent his administrator to congress with four claims: [a] we're "going to Mars" [b] we have too much money for the SLS rocket and the Orion capsule, and [c] the schedule on the SLS rocket and the Orion capsule will slip further because there's not enough money, and [d] we need more money for spaceX. Congress keeps pushing back by pointing out that Obama's people have admitted under oath that they actually have no plans and have asked for no budget to EVER go to Mars, that the SLS and Orion claims are contradictory, and that they are unwilling to give Obama more money for SpaceX as long as he keeps playing games over the legally-mandated SLS and Orion.

    This FY2017 budget proposal doubles-down on the fight by stripping nearly a billion dollars from the SLS rocket (about a 30% cut), which the administration's foot-dragging has already stalled from an early2017 first launch to an end of 2018 first launch. There is no way on this green Earth that Obama's 2017 election-year in-your-face budget insult will get approved by congress. Even the Democrats will not tolerate this.

  20. Here's you X-Plane by MarcoPon · · Score: 1

    pretty affordable to, especially if you are NASA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    --

    SeqBox
  21. Yup. And thats why air travel hasn't advanced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We easily could be traveling halfway around the world in 4-5 hours instead of 15-16 as we have today if we kept on advancing.

  22. Moving the frontier by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Drones aren't new, they're just cheap now.

    Sigh... Just because somebody did some piece of the technology before doesn't mean the current versions aren't new. If you think there is nothing new about drones today over the versions we had 50 years ago you need to pay better attention. Drones aren't just cheaper. They are better too. Lots better. They are FAR more capable in literally every measurable way. It's like comparing the wright flyer to the Bell X1. They are both manned aircraft but only a fool would argue there is "nothing new" between the two. You managed to completely miss my point which is that aircraft today are routinely pushing frontiers of things not previously achieved.

    1. Re:Moving the frontier by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Sigh indeed. Your post is sadly typical of comments here now. You wrote something at best ambiguous. Instead of admitting that, you instead go on the attack insisting I said things other than what I said.

      It's just as wrong to list drones under achievements as it is to list aircraft. Sure, we have unimaginably better versions of both, but neither is new.

      But I see you'd rather throw insults and misrepresentation around than have precision of language.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  23. Improvements are incremental by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Where are the game-changers? A hypersonic plane? Really? Great description of the X-15.

    The X15 was a manned rocket with wings. The X51 is a scramjet powered unmanned hypersonic aircraft. If you don't see where the boundaries are being pushed there I suggest you conduct a little study session. We've gone FAR past what we learned from the X15 program.

    GPS? You're proving my point! The concept was understood since before Sputnik, and it was first implemented 40 years ago.

    Who gives a shit when the "concept was understood"? We understood the concept of supersonic flight before WWII but that didn't mean we could do it. You claimed that there had been no progress in the last 50 years which is complete nonsense. GPS is a great example. GPS has HUGELY changed navigation particularly in the last 20 years. Do NOT make the mistake of underestimating the importance of that.

    "Utility, efficiency, reliability"...Buzz words that essentially mean "more of the same but a little bit better".

    Correct. What you don't seem to get is how much those things matter. ALL aircraft design is incremental and builds on what existed before. Including the SR-71 and the X-15. If you don't understand this then you don't understand how the engineering for this stuff is done. The improvements are always incremental. Big changes happen when those incremental changes add up to something that changes the paradigm we've been operating under. That gets harder as a technology matures. 50 years ago it was a lot easier to push boundaries in aviation than it is today and that isn't because people aren't trying.

    Also I have to say I disagree with your assertion that satellites can replace the SR-71. They don't have the same flexibility...not even close.

    Your error is in presuming that the military relies solely on the satellites. You can be certain they do not. They retired the SR-71 because it cost a fortune and the few corner cases where it added value were too rare to justify. Once you have sufficient satellite coverage (which we probably do) the SR-71 becomes redundant 99% of the time AND carries higher risks both operational and geopolitical. Much of the remaining cases can be covered by more conventional aircraft and drones. The SR-71 survived by being fast compared to what was shooting at it. Today there are missiles that are MUCH faster than the SR-71 and a better survival strategy arguably is stealth. People routinely make the error of thinking that the best way to replace a groundbreaking aircraft is with one that does the same thing but better. We don't understand when things have progressed beyond that operational paradigm. It's a really easy mistake to make and we've all done it at one time or another, myself included.