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Google AI Has Access To 1.6M People's NHS Records (newscientist.com)

Hal Hodson, reporting for New Scientist:It's no secret that Google has broad ambitions in healthcare. But a document obtained by New Scientist reveals that the tech giant's collaboration with the UK's National Health Service goes far beyond what has been publicly announced. The document -- a data-sharing agreement between Google-owned artificial intelligence company DeepMind and the Royal Free NHS Trust -- gives the clearest picture yet of what the company is doing and what sensitive data it now has access to. The agreement gives DeepMind access to a wide range of healthcare data on the 1.6 million patients who pass through three London hospitals run by the Royal Free NHS Trust -- Barnet, Chase Farm and the Royal Free -- each year. This will include information about people who are HIV-positive, for instance, as well as details of drug overdoses and abortions. The agreement also includes access to patient data from the last five years. According to their original agreement, Google cannot use the data in any other part of its business.

49 comments

  1. Yawn by PvtVoid · · Score: 0

    Anonymized hospital and health care data are widely available to researchers inside the U.S. as well, and have been for a long time.

    This is a non-story about longstanding practice.

    1. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is a non-story about longstanding practice.

      ..OR IS IT?

      Maybe it's more about the overreaching of Google in it's ambitions to spy on people more and more so they have more data to sell to their 'partners' so they can make more and more money. You'd think they're Microsoft or something, with the all the ways they're forcing spyware on everyone. Then with their fucking 'self driving cars' they'll be able to control where and when people travel and track their every movement. Fuck Google, fuck Microsoft, and fuck YOU for being a paid troll for all the above.

    2. Re:Yawn by PvtVoid · · Score: 1

      For example, SPARCS in New York.

    3. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nothing anonymous stays anonymous anymore.

      Not even AC's like me. Anyone with motive and a little time could identify me and stop by the house for coffee in no time.

      What is being done with data about human beings is the second biggest story of our time, after climate change.

    4. Re:Yawn by PvtVoid · · Score: 0

      This is a non-story about longstanding practice.

      ..OR IS IT?

      Maybe it's more about the overreaching of Google in it's ambitions to spy on people more and more so they have more data to sell to their 'partners' so they can make more and more money. You'd think they're Microsoft or something, with the all the ways they're forcing spyware on everyone. Then with their fucking 'self driving cars' they'll be able to control where and when people travel and track their every movement. Fuck Google, fuck Microsoft, and fuck YOU for being a paid troll for all the above.

      And chemtrails. You forgot chemtrails.

    5. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no such thing as anonymous anymore.

      Even us AC's know we can be ID'd and found by anyone with a few moments and the motivation.

      If someone doesn't "accidentally" collect identifiable data, someone will just change the EULA.

      I'm not against medical data being used correctly, I suspect Google is not that interested in my health as in ads based on my health.

    6. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think I'm not already aware of that, friend? At least half my friends are on one watchlist or another for some reason (close relative with access to Top Secret information, or was in the CIA in the 70's, ex Special Forces, etc) so it's more or less a given that I'm being watched or at least listened to, too; they can suck my dick, of course. They must gag on their doughnuts when they see or hear me talk about things like taking a shot at killing Trump, because they know it doesn't fit my profile, but it still triggers them, LOL.

    7. Re:Yawn by Coisiche · · Score: 1

      I don't like coffee. Do you have any tea?

    8. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why did you post basically the same comment twice?

    9. Re:Yawn by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      I would argue billions of people in ever more-open markets living higher quality lives is a far bigger story than any of that.

      Advancing medical tech (which Google is pursuing in this story) is far larger, too.

      But lives not lost in a gutter starving, or due to conquered disease, don't do so well in front of the camera.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    10. Re:Yawn by castus · · Score: 1

      By "available to researchers", do you mean that it's available to people in universities studying health or that it's being sold to companies willing to pay for it?

    11. Re:Yawn by countach44 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a service provider, Google is not equivalent to those other researchers.

      The article didn't say, but it would be interesting to know if dates/times were anonymized out (they aren't in the datasets I've seen). With Google calendar and gmail, it's pretty straightforward to deanonymize a rather large set of those patients.

      EMRs are becoming more prevalent and some patients start using email for communication (not always that best, but you know it happens). It sure seems like that whole "let's offer an email service" can be quite the treasure trove for this and other kinds of information.

    12. Re: Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So far as I can see from the agreement, the data are not anonymised. They are fully identifiable.

      This is ridiculous and stupid

    13. Re:Yawn by orgelspieler · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'll stop by tomorrow morning, Frank. But you know you shouldn't be drinking coffee with your high blood pressure.

    14. Re:Yawn by Psicopatico · · Score: 1

      Why did you post basically the same comment twice?

      RAIC

      (Redundant Array [of] Inexpensive Comments)

      --
      Mastering the English language is fucking easy: all you have to do is to put an f* word in every fucking sentence.
    15. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a US company. The US has a different mindset when it comes to privacy. Almost everything is public record, buyable, sellable, and traded for other data. Their only protection is HIPAA, a medical equivalent of the EU's data protection act. The US will sell this data to "partners" and "associates", google is the last place you want private information from another part of the world with opposite standards for privacy. It's a fucking disgrace. How much did the US or google bribe the NHS, or rather, the cronies running it.

      For all you 'mericans not bothered; the NHS is being destroyed by central govt so they can kill it and force the nation into the awful insurance system you have. Rich? Fine. Middle-class? I'm alright, Jack, work pays. Old, or get seriously ill, fuck you, you're now broke.

    16. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And chemtrails. You forgot chemtrails.

      I'd be right there with you in making fun of GP, but then Edward Snowden came along. I'd also take the original poster's view, if the rule of law still existed for corporation in the U.S. and U.K. Google might have agreed to not use the data in any other part of their business, but what will happen to them if they break that agreement? If a private citizen broke an agreement like that, they could end up in jail, but if Google did it they'd probably get hit with a fine equal to about four hours' worth of profit, which isn't much of a disincentive.

    17. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except that no part of the linked article speaks about "anonymized" data, it just came out of your imagination. You're either a fanboy retard or a google PR employee.

    18. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I simply do not understand who is modding this comment up. Chemtrails? I'm a slight conspiracy theorist and I think chemtrails is silly. Nothing GP said is false, it's not even controversial anymore. And, if this isn't spyware being forced on people, I don't know what is. A UK governmental entity is taking extremely personal information which was given freely in good faith for a different purpose and giving access to one of the world's sketchiest advertising companies without consent. This is some seriously crazy shit.

    19. Re:Yawn by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      I've never understood paranoid people like you. You know how many people in the US have Top Secret clearance? 1.4 MILLION people have ACTIVE clearance. Millions more with non-active Top Secret clearance. That isn't what gets you on a watchlist. You are a narcissist. You can go on facebook and see lots of people saying they are going to kill Trump. You guys are a dime a dozen.

    20. Re:Yawn by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      A narcissist on the internet?

    21. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...except that it's not anonymised. From the linked document in the article:

      "Identifiable data will be retained by the system for up to 5 years from creation of the record, or until the End Date for the project, whichever comes first, in order to facilitate algorithms requiring historical data in order to correctly generate an alert. As this data is being held for direct patient care purposes, pseudonimisation is not required. Should a pseudonimised copy be created for non-direct care purposes, then it would be done in line with the HSCIC guidelines (NPFlT-FNT-TO-BPR-0023.01) "

    22. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He knows nothing about what gets you on an FBI watchlist

      I've also been a card-carrying member of the largest free-standing militia in the United States; that alone is verified as getting you on an FBI watchlist. Then there's the close friend who just told me about her close relative who was a field operative for the CIA in the 1970's who, when he died, they came and stripped his apartment down to the bare wood and took it all with them. Then there's the ex Special Forces friend I have. And the 'painter' I know who used to work out at Lawrence Livermore labs ("..really, that's all I am, is a painter", he'd say. Never mind how much he knew about physics). Yeah sure I'm a narcissist. You're an idiot.

    23. Re:Yawn by PvtVoid · · Score: 1

      I mean available on the open internet.

    24. Re:Yawn by VoiceOfDoom · · Score: 1

      Yeah well, it might be a long-standing practice in the US of A, where people have almost no privacy rights but here in the UK, we* actually respect people's right not to be watched, interfered with, data-mined, manipulated, pimped out and monetised.

      This is a really fucking big deal - we only have Google's word that they won't use the data elswhere in their business and they are not a charity so we can't expect them *not* to monetise the insights that are derived from highly confidential data that was disclosed without asking - or even NOTIFYING - the people whose data it is.

      We have the RIGHT to privacy - this means that we need to be given the option to CHOOSE to hand over our personal medical secrets to Google, not to have it done in secret by bureaucrats whose track record on confidentiality is pretty fucking terrible.

      There are significant cultural differences in attitudes to privacy between the US and the UK and your dismissive attitude seems to indicate that you are either ignorant of these or are so parochial that you don't value cultural viewpoints that don't mirror your own.

      *not our Government, obvs. Or our media. Or the idiots who believe what they read in the tabloid press. But still.....

      --
      "Life is pain Highness. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something"

      Westly, The Princess Bride

    25. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      SERIOUSLY? NO really SERIOUSLY?

      I work for a company that provides software for use in managing patients health (I won't mention the exact industry as even that might give me away). Our customers NEED this software to make it far more efficient to treat patients. We continue to enhance & develop this software in the hopes that we can spot trends or 'triggers' that will help in designing better treatments. In theory than you could say we have 'access to MILLIONS of patient health records worldwide', but I'll tell you right now the laws governing our 'access' to those records are extremely costly for us to maintain compliance with and the penalties for us and our customers for not maintaining proper secrecy/privacy are ENORMOUS. But its not just the laws its the 'respect for the individual', we have no need, desire or care to want to 'know the specifics about any individual' and I highly doubt Google does either.

      Now, why would you begrudge us, or Google or IBM (Watson) having 'access' to this data to help in developing better treatments even if (and potentially 'because it does) means we make money while doing so. Again, the rules, regulations etc. governing us are extremely costly for us and any other 'health care entity' to follow, that is one reason health care is expensive.

      Consider if this summary said something like 'Google developing AI in collaboration with UK Health Trust for helping to better treat patients'...would your attitude to this be different?

      Obviously I don't speak for Google or the Health Trust but I have 1st hand knowledge of dealing with UK health organizations and the care with which we & they at least TRY to treat the data is extensive so I guarantee you this isn't a 'o lets just let them do whatever they want with the data'...there would be Reams of lawyers, and safeguards. I'd trust google and their engineers to maintain the privacy of the data over the private individuals themselves that's for sure.

    26. Re:Yawn by PvtVoid · · Score: 1

      I've also been a card-carrying member of the largest free-standing militia in the United States; that alone is verified as getting you on an FBI watchlist.

      Fortunately.

    27. Re:Yawn by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      Fuck Google, fuck Microsoft, and fuck YOU for being a paid troll for all the above.

      He's not the paid troll for all the above. I'm the paid troll for all of the above. And I'm also watching your every move through my binoculars.

  2. Definition of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Overlord.

    Bow.

    Now!

  3. I Googled celebrity VD cases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All I got were a bunch of Kardashian links.

  4. GREAT - the sooner the better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That we start to replace expensive scarce error prone doctors with AI.

  5. Is it anonymized? by mi · · Score: 2

    Anonymized hospital and health care data are widely available to researchers inside the U.S. as well

    Neither the writeup nor TFA mention "anonymized". Could you explain, where you got the information from?

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Is it anonymized? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither the writeup nor TFA mention "anonymized". Could you explain, where you got the information from?

      Exactly. He's probably a google PR troll.

    2. Re:Is it anonymized? by PvtVoid · · Score: 2

      Anonymized hospital and health care data are widely available to researchers inside the U.S. as well

      Neither the writeup nor TFA mention "anonymized". Could you explain, where you got the information from?

      Um, you know, by doing research. By reading other things. By using teh interwebs.

      https://theconversation.com/your-nhs-data-is-completely-anonymous-until-it-isnt-22924

      The data are scrubbed of direct personal identifiers, which are replaced by an ID code. The database does include things times, diagnoses, and prescriptions, which could be used to de-anonymize the data with enough ancillary information, but without which the data would be mostly useless for any kind of analysis. My point is that there are already publicly available databases in the U.S., such as SPARCS which contain similar information for hospital visits, and are similarly de-anonymizable. If you know what hospital you went to on what date, it's pretty easy to find yourself in the SPARCS dataset.

      Again. Yawn.

    3. Re:Is it anonymized? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article you just linked - which is, by the way, a two y/o story that is entirely unrelated to today's - says exactly the opposite of what you say. It actually argues that NHS data are not anonymized at all. That's the whole point of the article itself, starting from the title: "Your NHS data is completely anonymous - until it isn't"

      You just proved you're simply a world class cretin.

    4. Re:Is it anonymized? by NotAPK · · Score: 1

      Apologies for the terrible citation, but anonymised health records can be de-anonymised relatively easily.

    5. Re:Is it anonymized? by mi · · Score: 1, Insightful

      See? All you had to do was to cite your reference with the original claim...

      Oh, wait, the very title of your link says: "your-nhs-data-is-completely-anonymous-until-it-isnt"...

      My point is that there are already publicly available databases in the U.S

      And yet, the NHS data covers the entire nation, whereas the US databases (if they are, in fact, as detailed and dangerous to privacy as the NHS) cover only some of the patients.

      Just another reason why "single payer" is such a wet dream of Statists...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  6. Soo... by sshir · · Score: 1

    Google is building an automatic diagnostician. How interesting...
    I see lots of unemployed GP doctors on the horizon...
    ... replaced by nurses with iPads.

    1. Re:Soo... by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      Don't be silly. They will use Android, not iOS.

  7. OOOH NOES!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Deepmind will be convinced all humans have bad teeth and funny walks!

    1. Re:OOOH NOES!!! by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      And tell them that they should shave off all their hair so as not to harbor mold spores.

  8. Greetz from Yankeeland !! by inode_buddha · · Score: 1

    Greetz from Yankeeland !! Hows that digital colonoscopy workin out for ya?

    --
    C|N>K
    1. Re:Greetz from Yankeeland !! by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Digital? Like... with a finger?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  9. throw it a bone by bugs2squash · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you want results out of it it seems reasonable to put data in for analysis.

    Also, I can imagine Deepmind taking better care of the data than the UK government does. I think the government has had a string of data breaches in the past.

    Finally, presumably the company has deep pockets as well as a deep mind and can therefore be sued if they are negligent.

    --
    Nullius in verba
    1. Re:throw it a bone by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      Finally, presumably the company has deep pockets as well as a deep mind and can therefore be sued if they are negligent.

      That means they also have equally deep pockets to defend themselves in court, or buy politicians to pass legislation so you can't sue them from some technicality.

    2. Re:throw it a bone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want results out of it it seems reasonable to put data in for analysis.

      Sure, there is a LOT science can accomplish if we just throw ethics out the window.

  10. WAKE UP and RTFA. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is NOT anonymized data.

    "It includes logs of day-to-day hospital activity, such as records of the location and status of patients – as well as who visits them and when."

  11. But, but...HIPAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, I know. It's the UK, but you get the point.

  12. Clinical research problematic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    HIPPA makes the distinction between data used for "healthcare operations" (improving care for the provider using the data) and "publishable research". The former can use identified data as needed. Research for publication requires oversight by institutional review boards and privacy officers, and, except in low risk situations, requires patient consent for use of identified data. I read the data sharing agreement for this study as Google doing the work for direct patient care "as a service for NHS Hospital Trusts. Assuming that the NHS has rules pretty similar to the U.S., this would, I think, mean that the results could be more widely shared (because "National" Health) than they would in the US. The same non-consented, identity-based research in the US could only be shared within the institution doing the research. Hence Google goes to Great Britain to get the big dataset. And very likely, by contract and by law, the lack of publication means that sick people in other countries won't get the benefits of the work. Privacy and health care research are hard to reconcile.

    Not making this up. I designed and operated a research data warehouse for a hospital for 8 years.