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Estonian President Expresses Desire For More Digitally-Integrated Europe (arstechnica.com)

In a wide-ranging interview with Ars Technica, Estonian President Toomas Hendrik talked about European Digital Single Market (DSM), an ambitious goal that seeks to make commerce flow as smoothly across the 28-member block as it does in the United States. He cites the example of iTunes. From the report: What Estonia and Finland are doing is a step towards the DSM -- but there remain all kinds of national-level laws that stop Europe from being truly unified. "Take iTunes," President Ilves continued. "iTunes are based on credit cards. Credit cards are national. I cannot buy an iTunes record for my wife who has a Latvian credit card. I cannot buy her an iTunes record because I have an Estonian iTunes. This is true of virtually everything that is connected to digital services. And certainly this is why Estonia is at the forefront of the European Digital Single Market. As I like to say, it's easier to ship a bottle of Portuguese wine from southern Portugal in the Algarve and sell it in northern Lapland, than it is for me to buy an iTunes record across the Estonian-Latvian border."The report is worth a read in its entirety.

64 comments

  1. i don't want iTunes here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thank you very much. Nor do I want any stupid laws influenced by the big brother in the west.

    1. Re:i don't want iTunes here by ickleberry · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Western culture creeping in and taking over the whole world, only because some exec guy in a suit gazing out from his 100-storey office building sees your country as another "untapped market" that might yield a few dollars/euros if squeezed hard enough

    2. Re:i don't want iTunes here by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 0

      For what it's worth, some within the west don't like any cultures other than their own taking over:

      https://entertainment.slashdot...

      That said, I really doubt they'll be able to pull off "one digital europe". Why? Because France will complain if they can't regionally ban any service that doesn't have a certain percentage of Frenchmen in it (assuming, of course, that anybody besides France would care to watch that to begin with.)

    3. Re:i don't want iTunes here by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Actually, you got this backwards. American culture is taking over the world, in part, because America is digitally unified. America has a huge internal market for software, movies, music, etc. That gives American media and tech companies a huge headstart. Nearly all technology and media giants are American. The only other country that comes close is China, but Chinese companies like Alibaba, Baidu, and Xaiomi, have difficulty competing outside China.

      If other countries, including EU members, become more digitally unified, it will help them stand up to American cultural homogenization.

  2. Europe is for Cows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

    You are all french striking cows. You say Mooooooooo, no Milk! Mooooo! Mooooo! Moooo Cows Moooo! YOU STRIKING EUROPEAN COWS!!!

    1. Re: Europe is for Cows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      Europaeische kuehe sagen nicht MOOO sie sagen SIEG HEIL!

    2. Re: Europe is for Cows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I thought we settled that nonsense 70 years ago.

  3. Why have any of these restrictions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do we need restrictions on moving physical and digital goods across borders? For that matter, eliminate barriers to labor crossing borders, too. Tariffs and customs duty are harmful by artificially inflating prices. The solution is a truly global market. Restricting trade and commerce at international borders results in a suboptimal economy because goods and labor can't move freely to meet demand.

    1. Re:Why have any of these restrictions? by buchner.johannes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The US has a protection on its market on cotton, because otherwise African countries would be competitive.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    2. Re:Why have any of these restrictions? by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

      Eliminating barriers for labor crossing borders is what the EU does, it is one of the four freedoms.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    3. Re:Why have any of these restrictions? by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      Not sure if...

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    4. Re:Why have any of these restrictions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do we need restrictions on moving physical and digital goods across borders?

      Because every country has the right to regulate its economy and society the way it wants, for example by forbidding trashy TV shows and movies, mass immigration - because not every country wants to become a "multicultural" cesspool - GMO food, hormone-powered beef, or spyware like facebook. And obviously every government is supposed to favor local producers over foreign ones, using tariffs and other trade barriers. And if you don't like these rules you either move to another country, or you go to jail, there's no third option.

      Plus, given the recent catastrophic track record of you neoliberal jerks (the subprime crisis, the greatest recession in 80 years, and massive wealth inequality), protectionism is getting pretty popular right now, that's probably why all the candidates to the presidency of your country seem to oppose trade treaties, something they would have never said in the '90s.

      And even millennials are finally ditching your delirious neoliberal ideas, you would be surprised to see how public opinion is dramatically changing: https://www.washingtonpost.com...

    5. Re:Why have any of these restrictions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's one of the main reasons why anti-EU parties are skyrocketing in the polls nearly everywhere. Salary dumping and mass immigration don't look good to people, even if you hilariously call the "freedoms".

    6. Re:Why have any of these restrictions? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Why do we need restrictions on moving physical and digital goods across borders?

      To respect freedom of contract. A lot of works of authorship are subject to decades-long exclusive territorial distribution contracts that date to before the EU common market. The model was supposed to be that a publisher would enter into a contract with a publisher that understands the Estonian market under the condition that no other distributor would be allowed to distribute the same work in Estonia. Break these contracts, and the work goes out of print everywhere.

      Restricting trade and commerce at international borders results in a suboptimal economy

      Prisoner's dilemma.

    7. Re:Why have any of these restrictions? by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1
      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    8. Re:Why have any of these restrictions? by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      Why do we need restrictions on moving physical and digital goods across borders? For that matter, eliminate barriers to labor crossing borders, too......[this] results in a suboptimal economy

      How about : money isn't everything.

    9. Re: Why have any of these restrictions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You lost me at "multicultural" cesspool.

    10. Re:Why have any of these restrictions? by Drishmung · · Score: 1
      And when those exclusive contracts refer to countries that no longer exist?

      * Czechoslovakia (1993)
      * East Germany (1990)
      * Yugoslavia (1992)
      And when a country enters the EU, and all contracts are now subject to new, overriding law which may negate these contracts?

      --
      Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
    11. Re: Why have any of these restrictions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You lost me at "multicultural" cesspool.

      Oh, I'm so sorry, dear immigrant...

  4. Estonian? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that some surgical procedure done to very fat women so they don't upset the balance of the globe?

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    1. Re: GAY NIG.GER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

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  6. National economic integration is, in my opinion, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the greatest strength of the USA.

  7. Santorini by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Great blog http://www.dreamland.travel/turisticki-vodic/cat/turisticki-vodic/

  8. Instead of making it easier... by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

    The huge move from analog to digital for media should have made it easier to cross national boundaries. Instead, the media companies have chosen intentionally to make it more difficult, slicing and dicing territories to optimize profit regardless of the effects upon ease of use.

    1. Re:Instead of making it easier... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even though physical digital media (CDs, DVDs, BluRay etc) can easily be transported across national boundaries there are anomalies. For example, Season 1 of Sanctuary DVD set is available new from Amazon.fr but amazon.co.uk is only offering it from a 3rd party seller at many times the price of the season 2-4 sets. Or 'The Tunnel 2' is a joint UK/French production which is currently available on DVD in France - including English language soundtrack - but has yet to be released in the UK. Or where the same CD or DVD is available from both amazon France and UK, but it is cheaper to buy it from France and pay the currency conversion and shipping charges than to buy from amazon UK taking the free shipping option - I once did this and the order was actually shipped from the UK.

  9. #include by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Quit using the DEC logo for DRM stuff.

    2. Can't he just burn the music to CD and re-rip?

    1. Re: #include by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CD? Hello? 1999? Is that you?

    2. Re:#include by Guy+Harris · · Score: 2

      1. Quit using the DEC logo for DRM stuff.

      Apparently they're using it for items tagged "digital", because it has the word "digital" in it (the "D" in "DEC" being "Digital"), and if DRM stuff is tagged "digital" it's presumably because the "D" in "DRM" also stands for "digital".

      Not that this means it makes sense. I suppose a better icon might be something with 1's and 0's in it, but maybe they decided that wasn't an obvious icon, so they used the logo of a computer company because it had the word "digital" in it.

  10. Bottle of wine to Lapland analogy is wrong by Kjellander · · Score: 1, Insightful

    At least if we are talking Swedish Lapland, customs will intercept the shipment of wine, an hold it for weeks, and tax it so it is more expensive than locally bought (very expensive) wine, and also force you to pay for the joy of being taxed, a taxation fee of around €13 last time I got taxed.

    1. Re:Bottle of wine to Lapland analogy is wrong by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      The choice of Algarve for portuguese wine isn't terribly inspired either. I didn't even know we made wine down there.

    2. Re:Bottle of wine to Lapland analogy is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've ordered several times lethal amounts of booze to Finland from EU and I haven't experienced any kind of customs bullshit. If I did and the booze was cheap enough I'd probably just reorder and let the authorities consume their grand prize.

  11. Bury the lede by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

    The biggest surprise from this story is that it turns out Estonia is a real place. Who knew?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Bury the lede by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

      The biggest surprise from this story is that it turns out Estonia is a real place. Who knew?

      Educated people? Or were you thinking of Elbonia?

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:Bury the lede by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Maybe I'm thinking of Freedonia.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Bury the lede by korgitser · · Score: 1

      I'm an Elbonian^W Estonian and I find this offensive. Actually, no, I really don't care. I like both Elbonia and Estonia.

      --
      FCKGW 09F9 42
    4. Re:Bury the lede by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Estonia is trying to be all modern by, essentially, sacrificing its people on the altar of technology. They're not the only ones; every government that is desperate to "get with the times" and all the other stupid non-reasons to "digitally transform" without a clear goal in mind (other than "digitally transform") is trying to do exactly that. But they've been thorough and resolute about it. Good for them... not so good for the people.

      By now I'd like to move to Elbonia.

    5. Re:Bury the lede by korgitser · · Score: 2

      What are you talking about? We are sacrificing red tape on the altar of the people. The national ID card is tremendously helpful. It cuts the latency of most of your government interaction down to mere minutes, the time it takes you to click through the user interface of a service. This is unheard of In most of the civilized world, where it can take months to get your random papers done. The crypto on this is open source, and anybody is free to implement their own. I cannot figure out what better 'clear goals' you could ask for.

      Do you know how long it takes for me to prove my legal existence and identity? A few seconds.
      Do you know how long it takes for me to file my taxes? About a minute.
      Do you know how long it takes for me to start a business? A few hours.
      I could go on.

      The meat of your comment seems to be the all-too-common American hate towards the government. Well let me tell you, do not make the mistake to assume that a government per se is bad. A government is what you make of it. You can not exist without one more than you can exist without the division of labor. You might also remember a certain revolution in which you replaced a bad one with a good one so you have options, you know.
      Ours government might not be the best, but it's also not the worst, and we trust our everyday lives with it. The fact that your government is the worst is your own fault and your own fault alone, and until you fix it or replace it you deserve all of it.

      --
      FCKGW 09F9 42
    6. Re:Bury the lede by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      Not really. What happens if some clerk gets a bug up the bum and... refuses to issue a new card?

      It's happened to me. Not in Estonia, but since here too there's a push to "digital transformation" we're already being locked into using web-portals and such. That's not automation, that's being turned into a button-pushing meat-based automaton. And the more we're relying on this government IT, still a byword for failure, the deeper you fall if something stupid happens and the system suddenly cannot find you any longer.

      Very cool that everything is super duper fast as long as everything goes right... but as soon as it doesn't, hoo boy. Have you tried out what happens then? Tried to recover? You're looking at the Shiny! polish, but have you checked that underneath it is not after all still a turd?

      There is also that with this sort of ID systems the government's owning of your identity is much more stringent, much more pressing, making you that much more vulnerable. For example to function creep. That also always happens, we've seen it in many countries. If you think none of that won't happen, tell me why. What are the safeguards? What did Estonia do different from all the others such that any such thing cannot possibly happen and if it does, there is easy redress "within seconds"? Do tell.

      I find it sad that all you can do is extol superficial virtues and your counters are limited to ad hominems based on assumptions you haven't even checked are true. If you'd like to convince me that Estonia did it right, you have to show that the shiny thing is not a polished turd, for example by showing that it is not made of poo. Given the track record of government IT the world over, also given the invasiveness and importance of government IT, that is not too much to ask. Can you do that?

    7. Re:Bury the lede by andot · · Score: 1

      Not really. What happens if some clerk gets a bug up the bum and... refuses to issue a new card?

      I don't think this is even possible. It's mandatory by law.

    8. Re:Bury the lede by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's mandatory by law for me to carry one of those cards. It apparently is not mandatory for them to take all applications and turn them into cards for citizens. In fact, they started with giving me the run-around, telling me to go home and contact them from there because talk to people in person? Eww! Already had to Have Words with three bureaucrats in a row before they deigned to dig up the right clerk and then promise to pay extra (for an "expedited" application for no reason) to even get to talk to them. It got quite farcical. So if the clerk refuses to even take the application under consideration, I'm still SOL. NO CARD FOR ME. And it's my fault. It's the law!

    9. Re:Bury the lede by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You fail to name your country here. Also you seem to be the person we all hope not to ever meet.

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  13. Dear Estonian president... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unfortunately, I also live in a country that made the mistake to join the EU, hopefully not forever. I'd like to inform you that I don't want a "unified" digital (or physical) european market, I would definitely survive without iTunes, I don't feel the need to watch Estonian movies, I don't see you as a "brother" or "compatriot", and I also don't want to waste my country's public money in higher defence expenditures because of your anti-Putin hysteria. Thanks.

    1. Re:Dear Estonian president... by Freultwah · · Score: 1

      Spoken like a true contrarian, anti-everything. Thanks for sharing, though, and you're entitled to your opinion, however moronic or contrarian. It's a free country, dissidents will not be murdered by anonymous thugs next to the presidential palace. That's how *they* roll.

    2. Re:Dear Estonian president... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might want to look at polls in Italy, France, Germany, the UK, Austria, the Netherlands, etc... and see yourself how many Eurosceptic "contrarians" are around. You would be surprised. Last week a neo-nazi guy nearly became Austrian president, only some highly likely vote-rigging on mail ballots prevented that (wow, EU democracy...). If people are ready to massively vote a neo-nazi just to show the middle finger to the EU, maybe it's time to realize that it's really a failed project.

    3. Re: Dear Estonian president... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a failed project, more people are in favour than against, it's just that they forget (or never knew) the reason why the EU was created. There's a lot wrong with it but on balance it does more good than harm.

      For the same reason, you'd think the Austrians would have some sense of shame in voting for a neo-Nazi.

    4. Re: Dear Estonian president... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      more people are in favour than against

      Did you make up some imaginary opinion polls in your own mind? Reality check: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/bus...

      And Austrians should be ashamed for having some districts with a 146% turnout (!), a grotesque sign of electoral fraud, not for voting someone that you don't like.

  14. Toomas Hendrik Ilves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Toomas Hendrik are his first names. His full name is Toomas Hendrik Ilves. Good job editors.

    1. Re:Toomas Hendrik Ilves by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      So he is the president of Estonia yet his wife does not have an Estonian credit card. What is her problem exactly? Her credit score too low? Husband has only temporary employment? Or what?

      And so his solution to the problem of his wife not having an Estonian credit card, despite living in Estonia, is to re-organise the European economy.

      Funny, I have the opposite problem. I have about 8 credit cards and keep getting letters and phone calls egging me on to have more. Perhaps unknowingly I am a bigger celebrity and regarded as more credit-worthy than the Estonian presidential couple.

    2. Re:Toomas Hendrik Ilves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His wife is a high-ranking Latvian official and therefore has a Latvian card. His point is that people should be able to cross the borders easier according to basic union rules. It is indeed true that doing any cross-border stuff in EU is difficult, because the systems to do this are usually developed with a national mindset.

    3. Re:Toomas Hendrik Ilves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you don't have the opposite problem. You have the same problem. Problem being that one credit card should be enough yet it isn't.

      Why the fuck would anyone want to have 8 cards if they weren't a collector?

  15. Apple Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    than it is for me to buy an iTunes record across the Estonian-Latvian border.

    If Apple doesn't understand Visa or American Express, then there is not much to be done here. Perhaps a trip to the local bank would help Mrs. Hendrik to integrate better into the global credit based consumer festivities.

  16. Last name by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

    Estonian President Toomas Hendrik talked

    In other news, Barack Hussein is the way Slashdot editors refer to their president.

    --
    Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  17. Contradiction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... I have an Estonian iTunes ...

    How does his having an iTunes account demonstrate digital services "stop Europe from being truly unified"?

    ... iTunes record for my wife who has a Latvian credit card. I cannot buy her an iTunes record ...

    He just euclidated the problem: iTunes will sell his wife a product but won't sell him the same product. It's called geo-blocking and is the hypocrisy of copyright licenses. Yes, Europe needs to be unified, but not because credit cards are somehow faulty. I'm sure everyone here has used a credit card from their local bank to buy something in another country. Credit cards work, he's a moron.

    ... Digital Single Market

    Forcing IP holders to offer a standardized license to every country is an excellent idea. Since governments cannot change the licenses and contracts that importers bought, how will he create a single digital-services market, after the fact?

    1. Re: Contradiction by bestweasel · · Score: 2

      "how will he create a single digital-services market, after the fact?"

      By using examples like the one he gave: I want to buy this but because of these barriers, I can't (easily). Look at all the revenue you're losing. Join our European Digital Single Market and make more money.

      I think he understands about the credit cards.

      If it works well for public services (see korgitser's comment) the private sector will see the advantages and may have to join in anyway to gain government contracts. The key is to make it more attractive than the current walled gardens.
      If that happens, problems with copyright agreements etc will melt away.

      See https://ec.europa.eu/prioritie...

  18. protectionist rules by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

    a lot of their problems stem from protectionism of national economies and cultures. the protectionist rules in place are actually partitioning each country from one another which makes it impossible to have unified anything. to have a unified marketplace, you need a unified government.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  19. Successor states after a breakup by tepples · · Score: 1

    Contracts that granted exclusivity in Czechoslovakia would probably be interpreted as granting exclusivity in both of its successor states, namely the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Likewise with the successor states of Yugoslavia. Cases of unification, such as absorption of the DDR (East Germany) into the BRD (West Germany), pose a more interesting legal challenge. Have you read about any cases where different companies ended up with exclusivity in BRD and DDR at the time of unification?

    1. Re:Successor states after a breakup by Drishmung · · Score: 1

      Interpreted by whom? In cases of sovereignty like this, which law decides? And that then leads to my second question, what happens when a country joins the EU? (IANAL by the way, in case you had not guessed. I am interested in what does happen here).

      --
      Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
    2. Re:Successor states after a breakup by tepples · · Score: 1

      The EU's Brussels I regulation provides for cross-border civil litigation (English PDF):

      If the case is about a breach of contract, the courts of the place where the contract should have been carried out should hear the case. If the case is about non-contractual matters (tort or delict), the courts of the place where the harmful event took place are competent.

      Under this rule, a Slovak distributor with exclusive rights to distribute a work in Czechoslovakia since before the breakup could sue an unfairly competing French distributor in Slovakia and in the Czech Republic, at least before the proposed "Regulation on the cross-border portability of online content services" goes into effect.

  20. I live in US, my parents in EU, ... by aralin · · Score: 1

    ... and I would really like to buy them extended iCloud storage. Well, tough luck there. Even if I had a local credit card, their particular country does not even have iCloud. I ended up switching my mother to US iTunes Store and re-downloading all the apps that are in both stores and telling her she might never be able to update those that are in the EU store only. Why is this even a problem? WTF?

    Not even mentioning the fact, as written in the article, that if my parents tell me about a new record by a local popular artist, I am out of luck, because I am locked into the US iTunes Store. Just fix it, damnit.

    --
    If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
  21. Forget digital by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 2

    Given the coming Brexit referendum, and other nationalistic movements on the rise, what we will get is a more dis-integrated Europe...

    1. Re:Forget digital by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      No matter what happens in the UK, it won't fragment the EU any further. There are two possible outcomes to the vote:

      Remain: Other countries see the lack of popular will to leave, and how the campaign has ripped the ruling party apart. Any thoughts of leaving themselves are abandoned.

      Leave: The UK gets a terrible trade deal from the EU, which is more interested in discouraging others from wanting to leave than in preserving it's 8% trade with that country. Deals with the rest of the world turn out to suck too, and the UK breaks up as Scotland goes independent and the Welsh start demanding the same. Other EU countries realize the folly of trying to go it alone and put any thoughts of trying to one side.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Forget digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The average pathetic "eurofederalist" and his desperate wishful thinking, completely detached from reality. In the meantime, Grillo's Five Star Movement is leading the polls in Italy, Le Pen's Front National in France, Wilders' party in the Netherlands, the FPO in Austria, while Poland and Hungary already have Eurosceptic governments, and Portugal recently refused to comply with the EU commission's budget requirements. The residents of the european continent don't feel like "one people", they don't want a bilderberg-driven union, they don't want to be ruled by bankers, they don't put trade deals above their national sovereignty and identity, and don't even want their countries being melted into one giant "multicultural" cesspool, LIVE-WITH-IT.

      You pro-EU people are now a minority in the continent, you're going straight to the Landfill of History, no matter the Brexit referendum's result. Read what the EU president himself just said, he seems to be far more in touch with reality than you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/bus...