Slashdot Mirror


Largest Auto-Scandal Settlement In US History: Judge Approves $15 Billion Volkswagen Settlement (usatoday.com)

A federal just has approved the largest auto-scandal settlement in U.S. history, a $14.7 billion settlement concerning Volkswagen Group's diesel car emissions scandal. USA Today reports: U.S. District Court Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco approved the sweeping agreement between consumers, the government, California regulators and the German automaker in a written ruling a week after signaling he was likely to sign off. He said the agreement is "fair, reasonable and adequate." The settlement comes about a year after Volkswagen admitted that it rigged 11 million vehicles worldwide with software designed to dodge emissions standards. The company is still facing criminal investigations by the U.S. Justice Department and German prosecutors. The U.S. probe could lead to additional financial penalties and criminal indictments. About 475,000 Volkswagen owners in the U.S. can choose between a buyback or a free fix and compensation, if a repair becomes available. VW will begin administering the settlement immediately, having already devoted several hundred employees to handling the process. Buybacks range in value from $12,475 to $44,176, including restitution payments, and varying based on milage. People who opt for a fix approved by the Environmental Protection Agency will receive payouts ranging from $5,100 to $9,852, depending on the book value of their car. Volkswagen will also pay $2.7 billion for environmental mitigation and another $2 billion for clean-emissions infrastructure.

128 comments

  1. Wow by shadowp157 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm genuinely surprised this story has been on the front page this long: a) without a comment, and b) without a comment from someone making a snarky remark about global warming being fake and how its killing businesses. Good on you Slashdot.

    1. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How about a snarky comment about how if you make useful physical good and do something illegal, you get a real penalty, whereas if you make a fortune by shuffling money around on paper and do something illegal causing a massive crisis that threatens the whole economy, you don't even get a slap on the wrist?

      I'm not trying to defend Volkswagen here, or imply they were unjustly punished, just pointing out that this seems to be the only time there's any justice.

    2. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The company is still facing criminal investigations by the U.S. Justice Department and German prosecutors.

      And it's been more than a year, with nothing. When this story first broke, there was this:

      software dev/test audit trails are almost certain to pinpoint who embedded the code and who authorized it. You can actually see who asked the developer to write that code," said Nikhil Kaul, a product manager at test/dev software maker SmartBear Software. "Then if you go upstream you can see who that person's boss was...and see if testing happened...and, if testing didn't happen. So you can go from the bottom up to nail everyone."

      Except, you can bet that the people at the top who authorized it (or at least didn't condemn it) probably never actually sent a traceable e-mail to anyone. Nor did they touch any code. Nor do they appear in any meeting minutes. These sorts of discussions tend to happen in a very informal manner, and for good reason.

    3. Re:Wow by shadowp157 · · Score: 0

      Ill drink to that.

    4. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well, it IS killing businesses, not to mention costing us all billions in lost tax dollars that end up lining the pockets of corrupt bureaucrats and snake oil salesmen selling "miracle green cures", but frankly, that's a different discussion altogether. What burns me about this is that this is nothing more than "example-making".

      Understand, ALL of the car manufacturers do this. ALL. OF. THEM. (Even Tesla. They just fake the numbers on how far their cars can actually drive, and how "green" they are.) They do it because the CAFE and air standards are unrealistic and stupid. It's good that we have standards, but we have raised them too high too fast and NOBODY can make those numbers without cheating in one way or another. Either through "creative accounting" "creative calculating" or straight up fudging the tests, as VW has.

      This whole case should be a wake up call that we are asking too much of our car manufacturers and making them waste time faking their way through tests that they can't meet and still make cars people actually want. Instead I expect we will have Yet Another Round of Eco-Nazi preening about taking their latest scalp in the "fight against eeeevil Big Auto".

      Meanwhile Ford F150's and 4 door Jeep Wranglers outsell every other car on the planet.

    5. Re:Wow by shadowp157 · · Score: 1

      Yet VW themselves designed a car that gets over 250 miles per gallon 2 years ago. Its not unrealistic, that's just what you've been taught. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    6. Re:Wow by sjames · · Score: 1

      They do it because the CAFE and air standards are unrealistic and stupid. It's good that we have standards, but we have raised them too high too fast and NOBODY can make those numbers without cheating in one way or another. Either through "creative accounting" "creative calculating" or straight up fudging the tests, as VW has.

      The fix they propose to apply will make the cars meet those very standards you claim are impossible to meet. How do you explain that?

    7. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What was done illegally to create the Climate Crisis?

    8. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      by lowering horsepower and making the cars horrible to drive ? yeah anyone can do that.

    9. Re:Wow by bobbied · · Score: 2

      I'm genuinely surprised this story has been on the front page this long: a) without a comment, and b) without a comment from someone making a snarky remark about global warming being fake and how its killing businesses. Good on you Slashdot.

      How does the specific NOx emission issue they where cheating on have anything directly to do with global warming/climate change? NOx is not a greenhouse ga so this was about air quality not C02 emissions...

      It's *really* hard to clean up those high compression diesel engines without using urea injection, which comes at a increased price, lower power output, lower economy and higher maintenance cost. VW was just trying to save a few hundred bucks a car and keeping it's power and fuel economy up by skipping the injection system. They basically broke the EPA's rules for competitive price advantages and MPG bragging rights, but I dare say N0x is more an air quality issue than a Global Warming one.

      Actually, from a C02 release perspective, bringing the engines into NOx compliance is likely to INCREASE CO2 emissions..... But we digress..

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    10. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love how a story about a corrupt company someone gets turned into corrupt bureaucrats.

      Being a bureaucrat, I take offense. I see all sorts of corrupt behavior in corporations, from Enron to Lehman Brothers to Wells Fargo on a massive scale, and somehow a few bureaucrats caught doing something unethical makes all bureaucrats corrupt?

      Idiot

    11. Re:Wow by bobbied · · Score: 5, Informative

      They do it because the CAFE and air standards are unrealistic and stupid. It's good that we have standards, but we have raised them too high too fast and NOBODY can make those numbers without cheating in one way or another. Either through "creative accounting" "creative calculating" or straight up fudging the tests, as VW has.

      The fix they propose to apply will make the cars meet those very standards you claim are impossible to meet. How do you explain that?

      You guys got this all wrong.. This IS NOT a global warming issue, at least not directly. The EPA rules VW bent where about air quality.

      NOx is a serious pollution problem, but it is NOT a greenhouse gas...

      However, in this case, meeting the NOx standards runs counter to green house gas emissions. The likely solution for VW is to lower power output, add a urea injection system and lower fuel economy, all of which will up operating costs for the owners. This will ADD to CO2 emissions for each mile these cars drive, but it will also make the air we inhale cleaner in areas where lots of these cars drive....

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    12. Re:Wow by mspohr · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Exxon (and other fossil fuel companies) knew about global warming many years ago and lied to everyone to protect their profits.
      This is a clear violation of SEC rules.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    13. Re:Wow by sjames · · Score: 2

      Yes, I know CAFE doesn't address CO2. It addresses NOx which etches buildings (and people's lungs).

    14. Re:Wow by sjames · · Score: 1

      I guess they should have tried a little harder to fit a urea system.

    15. Re:Wow by shadowp157 · · Score: 1

      I wasn't necessarily tying the VW scandal to global warming. I was literally surprised that no one had made such a comment after 14 minutes, knowing how often such a comment appears on slashdot. Especially where one might assume the two are connected.

    16. Re: Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't need a paper trail, you just need Josef The Programmer to say Magnus told me to, and so on..

    17. Re: Wow by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Electric cars have zero tailpipe emissions (no tailpipe). So how are they faking it?

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    18. Re: Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $15B fine on 11M defective by design units? That's a shade over $1000 a unit in fines. Does that fine even cover the profit per unit. VW shouldn't be making a profit per unit after fines.

      If the fine for violating the emissions standards is so low and still appropriate, couldn't I just pay $1500 more to buy a car without all the emissions gear? The lower cost of servicing a slightly more expensive car without all the emissions baggage would more than cover the extra $1500.

      If not, then the fine isn't appropriate now is it?

    19. Re: Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Josef is no longer with the company, and we don't have his current contact details. End of problem.

    20. Re: Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This only covers US 2.0 liter cars, and there are less than 500k of those. The settlement terms are harsh to an unprecedented level.

    21. Re: Wow by japhering · · Score: 1

      $15B fine on 11M defective by design units? That's a shade over $1000 a unit in fines. Does that fine even cover the profit per unit. VW shouldn't be making a profit per unit after fines.

      If the fine for violating the emissions standards is so low and still appropriate, couldn't I just pay $1500 more to buy a car without all the emissions gear? The lower cost of servicing a slightly more expensive car without all the emissions baggage would more than cover the extra $1500.

      If not, then the fine isn't appropriate now is it?

      Nope.. not 11M cars .. only the 480,000 2L TDI and potentially the 90,000 3L TDI (still being negotiated). spread across 7 years.

      Given that the gas models sell more than the diesel models and that the body work is equivalent .. those parts won't last long.

      Even the diesel parts will get reused .. if and only if VW gets an approved fix. Blow a passing 2L TDI engine component (think turbo)
      get one for half price from a non-compliant 2L sold back to VW.

    22. Re:Wow by Required+Snark · · Score: 1
      I can't bother to find the reference, but within the last few days Exxon tried to get the case dropped on the grounds that the New York AG and other on the prosecution side are "biased" and out for personal gain. It's a 100% ad hominem attack, with a heaping pile of you're mean and you don't play fair as a side order. Like Exxon isn't a profit driven enterprise with an agenda of it's own.

      The best reason I can figure out for this is that they are setting up for a long appeal process. If they can drag this out for decades think of all the additional profit to be made. This strategy worked out really well for them during the Exxon Valdez iol spill disaster, so why not try it again?

      --
      Why is Snark Required?
    23. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meanwhile Ford F150's and 4 door Jeep Wranglers outsell every other car on the planet.

      Really? I have never seen either of those.

    24. Re: Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $15B fine on 11M defective by design units?

      No, approximately 482000. This settlement pertains to the US only.

      VW shouldn't be making a profit per unit after fines.

      Why not? I don't see any reason why there should be a connection between the penalty for the violation and the profit earned per vehicle sold (which was likely negative, since VW has been losing money in the US for decades). Moreover, the total cost of this settlement is more than 300 times what GM had to pay when they did something similar with a comparable number of cars. I would rather argue that VW is paying a few orders of magnitude more than what would be reasonable or in line with previous cases.

    25. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am not aware that is part of the plan and I doubt they would get regulators or customers to approve of that.

      In the European recall, it was an explicit requirement of the Federal Motor Vehicle Agency that fuel economy and power should not be reduced and that customers would experience no significant drawbacks. Out of the hundreds of thousands of cars that have already had their updates, only a few dozen reported problems. Apparently, they borrowed some of the tricks that are also used in the EA288, which has the lowest on-road emissions of any diesel car engine on the market today. These involve multiple injections timed in such a way that NOx is reduced at the source without producing significantly more PM. These tricks have reduced NOx emissions essentially without downsides.

      Now the US recall will be different, because of an even lower NOx emission limit and more restictions on emissions-related engine behaviour, but it will also include hardware upgrades. I think it is very unlikely that it will not be designed in such a way that downsides are minimised.

    26. Re:Wow by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Defend volkswagen how about this. Senior executives decided to scam the public and sell more vehicles to pump up their bonuses without doing the additional work. So investors got cheated with a scam to over pay executives for a lie and then paid the fine for being victims of that scam. How the fuck about we start sending corrupt executives to jail instead of making the people who pay the wages of the corrupt executives and who got cheated, always ending up paying.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    27. Re:Wow by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      That is about $30,000 per car sold in the US. So they are basically refunding everything and eating all sales over many years as a total loss. That makes me wonder how much profit they make on each car under normal circumstances.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    28. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, not to mention that they got tax breaks and a credit against their CAFE budget with the cheating cars.

    29. Re: Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Clean Coal"

    30. Re: Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      31 mile range. Younkeft thstbout. If we remove the weight of batteries, yes. And no AC or heat, yes. Lol. You are a fool.

    31. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      F-150's literally do outsell everything, it's by an order of magnitude the most successful motor vehicle ever.

      Jeep Wranglers, not so much (think theyre about 4th or 5th)

    32. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had to look up the F-150, because I had never seen one. They are apparently popular in North America (although judging by the pictures, I cannot fathom why), but they are not sold in most other places. I seriously doubt that they come anywhere near Golf and Corolla sales numbers.

    33. Re: Wow by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      31 miles all electric:

      According to Volkswagen, the vehicle consumes 0.99 l/100 km (238 mpg-US; 285 mpg-imp), giving it a 650 km (404 mi) driving range on one tank of fuel.

      404 miles per tank.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    34. Re: Wow by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      That is cleaner than most cars. Plus, coal is rapidly becoming extinct, so why do you keep bringing it up?

      The emissions from a coal plant powering a Tesla are less than most cars' emissions for the same number of miles. In the US, the Tesla works out to the equivalent to 40 mpg, in other countries it can go into three digit mpg equivalent. This will only improve over the course of the years as the "dirty" power plants are replaced with nuclear, solar, wind, hydro, or worst case, nat gas.

      http://shrinkthatfootprint.com...

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    35. Re:Wow by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Worldwide, it looks like third place behind the Corolla and Golf/Rabbit:

      https://www.statista.com/stati...

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    36. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting, thanks for the link. I assume that the F-150 is part of this F-series, right? There are apparently more of them than Polos and Focuses.

      The Toyota Camry also surprises me. I thought they stopped making it 20 years ago or so, but apparently it is still being sold in large numbers in some countries.

    37. Re:Wow by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Yes, the F-series contains the F-150 (250, 350, 450 ...). The first number in the series is the number of tons of hauling capacity (as far as I understand it), so they get to be rather large vehicles quite quickly. Most commonly, they are used as commercial trucks, but they are also very popular for personal vehicles.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      The US still carries the Camry, it is a pretty decent family car, if a bit light on the engine.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    38. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks. Pickups in general are pretty rare where I live (The Netherlands), but American-style ones even more so. If you see one, it is usually a VW Transporter, a Mercedes Sprinter or a Fiat Ducato, but the van versions of those are much more popular. I've also seen a few Nissan Navaras and one or two Dodges. Over here, tradesmen tend to prefer closed vans or trucks and for personal transport a pickup would be inconveniently large (especially for parking) and expensive to run, since fuel is taxed rather heavily (diesel is about $1.40 US a litre at the pump and 95 octane petrol about $1.75) and road tax for personal vehicles is by weight, so you really need a convincing use case. People do use vans or van-like MPVs as personal transport, though.

  2. pwnt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just pwnt

  3. What happens to the cars after the buyback? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

    Do they get destroyed or re-sold? If they're re-sold, how cheap will they be?

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    1. Re:What happens to the cars after the buyback? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do they get destroyed or re-sold? If they're re-sold, how cheap will they be?

      The cars will be given to an "environmentally sensitive" recycler. Translation, they will be parted out for manufactures repair parts. Original parts priced
      somewhere between factory new and aftermarket

    2. Re: What happens to the cars after the buyback? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      11 million donor cars?! They would be paying you to take spare parts off their hands!

    3. Re:What happens to the cars after the buyback? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can upgrade the cars if the US EPA and CARB approve the upgrade and then they can be resold. If those agencies do not approve the upgrade, the cars will have to be destroyed completely according to the settlement. Even replacing the entire engine is not an option. Apparently, flexing muscles is more important to the US environmental agencies than the environment.

  4. Why? by Shaitan · · Score: 0

    Why would anyone want the fix? Does it just give real emissions ratings? If you like the car wouldn't you be better off skipping the fix and passing emissions tests?

    1. Re:Why? by shadowp157 · · Score: 1

      No, it will choke the performance. The code selectively caused the engine to run cleaner which held back performance and mpg, etc. The fix will have to cause the car to run like that all the time, lest it not pass emissions.

    2. Re:Why? by sjames · · Score: 2

      If you skip the fix, you won't pass emissions now that they know about it. You can either sell the car back to VW or accept the fix and compensation for lost performance.

    3. Re:Why? by Smidge204 · · Score: 2

      Presumably the fix would be to have the car always run in "cheat" mode, rather than removing the cheat. The cars are clearly capable of generating fewer emissions or the cheat wouldn't have worked in the first place.

      The result will be lower performance, of course, but the vehicles will have emissions ratings in line with what everyone was led to believe.
      =Smidge=

    4. Re:Why? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Then reflash the computer with the good code you kept a copy of, but upped the version number so future updates will leave it alone.

      Remember the offending code noticed the smog check, it will continue to pass.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or you live in a state without emission testing... Thank you Indiana, I'll be keeping mine the way good designed it. No fix for me! 750 miles/ tank TDI Passat 2013.

      Note i do no live in Porter or lake counties.

    6. Re: Why? by DaHat · · Score: 1

      Given VW almost certainly has a list of each and every buyer of each and every VIN of one of these (which can be looked up in a state DB to find new owner), it would not surprise me if the EPA ended up with the list and could use it to... encourage all such owners to comply.

    7. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because of shitheads like you that we have a climate problem.

    8. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or you live in a state without emission testing... Thank you Indiana, I'll be keeping mine the way good designed it. No fix for me! 750 miles/ tank TDI Passat 2013.

      Note i do no live in Porter or lake counties.

      Come March of 2018, you had better have had the car fixed or have had it sold back to VW, otherwise you will likely find yourself without a vehicle and without
      any compensation. Additionally, you can't legally sell the car to anyone but VW between now and then without the fix.

      So far the leaked preliminary tests are supposedly showing emissions compliance with NO change in horse power or mileage.

    9. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hate the game, not the player!

      DT
      (Go get the laws changed)

    10. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fix won't be just software. They will replace exhaust components. If it had to run in emissions test mode all the time it would not only use more fuel, but it would also wear out the engine and the particulates filter very quickly. Running in low-NOx mode creates lots of particulates. This doesn't matter for the emissions test, because US and California standards for particulates are quite lax, but it increases internal engine pollution and it means the particulate trap has to be cleaned out more often.

    11. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a climate problem because of people who drive in cars that have very low CO2 emissions? That needs some explanation...

    12. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "you can't legally sell the car to anyone but VW between now and then without the fix"

      WTF??

    13. Re:Why? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It depends on the model. Not all can be fixed economically. Some will need extra exhaust scrubbing added. It's unclear what this will do to performance, but it certainly won't improve it.

      So either trade-in or compensation+downgrade if available.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "you can't legally sell the car to anyone but VW between now and then without the fix"

      WTF??

      Any car that has been manufactured since the EPA established auto emissions rules is required to have an associated piece of
      paper from the EPA. Without said paper on file with the EPA the vehicle can't be legally sold in the US. As part of the on going
      dieselgate the EPA revoked the paperwork on all affected VW diesels. Because of that, it is illegal to sell any of the affected
      vehicles to anyone other than VW ( you might get a way with selling it to a scrap yard -- assuming they actually scrap the vehicle).

  5. Probably would have been cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Probably would have been cheaper to close the company and buy out Tesla.

    Oh well...now we can move on to Ford, GM, Toyota, etc. probably doing the same thing.

    1. Re:Probably would have been cheaper by AHuxley · · Score: 0

      Its about German jobs in a company town in Germany.
      With the flow of illegal migrants wondering around the EU, it was hoped to have cheap union free workers and new robots.
      Now the US has removed some of that funding and Germany is stuck with a lot of illegal migrants and less cash for new robots and can only dream of union free production lines.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  6. I own one... by Temkin · · Score: 2

    I own a 2014 model... Less than 40k miles. Basically, I can turn my car in, and walk away with $30. According to them anyway... No restitution for sales tax and fee's paid when I bought it, no restitution for my lost time and the anguish of having to go to a car dealership and buy something else. Hell, I'm not sure they're even going to cover the sales tax to turn it in. I've moved states since buying it, and I think this state will want to collect taxes on the buyback...

    1. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume you mean $30,000, not $30.

      That doesn't sound too unreasonable. I get that there is anguish and trouble on your end, but remember, you also got 1-2 years of car usage. That's worth something as well. If they bought it back at list price, that would have meant that you got a free car rental for that whole time. As nice as that would be, that doesn't sound very fair to Volkswagen to be subsidizing your lifestyle, especially considering the number of miles (and wear-and-tear/depreciation) you have put on it.

    2. Re:I own one... by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      So you will have had the free use of a car for two to three years because the amount of emissions wasn't what you expected. Did you buy your car specifically for the emissions? Or maybe you chose a diesel because they get better mileage?

    3. Re:I own one... by chill · · Score: 4, Informative

      Uh, what? That has to be a typo.

      I have a 2013 with 95k miles on it. I still owe about $9,000. The deal will pay me about $18,000, so I'll walk away with $9,000 in cash after paying off the loan.

      I'm headed over to my dealer this weekend to see what kind of incentive he'll give me on top of that for sticking with VW. Considering new Jettas start around $15,000, I could end up with a new car (2017 model year) for almost nothing.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:I own one... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      I own a 2014 model... Less than 40k miles. Basically, I can turn my car in, and walk away with $30. According to them anyway... No restitution for sales tax and fee's paid when I bought it, no restitution for my lost time and the anguish of having to go to a car dealership and buy something else. Hell, I'm not sure they're even going to cover the sales tax to turn it in. I've moved states since buying it, and I think this state will want to collect taxes on the buyback...

      So sue them...

      Seriously, get a lawyer, find a group of owners and sue....Class action lawsuits can pay of big, well if you are a lawyer they can... Good luck!

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    5. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When did the OP say it was free? I can't speak for them but I would imagine that they paid every month for access to the car. Lets get something very clear. If you pay $300 a month for 5 years for access to a car, and then get all the money you gave them back the car was not free. It was $300 a month. The fact that you get your money back does not relieve you of the burden of paying it.

    6. Re:I own one... by Temkin · · Score: 3, Informative

      I assume you mean $30,000, not $30.

      No... I mean $30. They've switched valuation sources since I last checked on the suit. It's no longer KBB, it's now some national dealer's valuation system that apparently deprecates much more on mileage. So it takes both their estimated offer, and the compensation to cover what's left on my loan. Couple that with buying in a high cost state with sky high sales taxes and license fee's, and then moving to a lower cost state, it's just a wipe out. It doesn't even leave me with enough money to go pay the "due at signing" fee's to lease a Kia.

      So I took a loss on the value of my trade in when I bought the VW thinking I'd have a solid 200k mi vehicle that would last me 10+ years, and now I'm getting shafted on the buyback valuation. The 2 years I owned the vehicle were not free. I was making payments the whole time, with the expectation that in another 2 years I'd get ~5 years of no car payments. You can call that subsidizing my lifestyle, but I call it theft.

    7. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your car still works. Quitcherwining.

    8. Re:I own one... by Zaiff+Urgulbunger · · Score: 1

      The summary says if you opt for a fix then you'll also get a payout that starts at just over $5K... so I'm guessing that's your best option.

    9. Re:I own one... by rfengr · · Score: 1

      Can you get a chip that undoes the "fix" that VW applies? Diesel trucks can be chipped to roll coal, so why not an MPG restoration chip?

    10. Re:I own one... by PPH · · Score: 1

      You need to consider your options carefully. Don't jump at one settlement over the other without careful thought.

      If it were me, I'd take some time to think about it, like maybe 10 or 15 years, before I'd make up my mind.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    11. Re: I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you get a chip to shove up your ass that will fix the pollution problem that people like you continually contribute to?

    12. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I own a 2014 model... Less than 40k miles. Basically, I can turn my car in, and walk away with $30. According to them anyway... No restitution for sales tax and fee's paid when I bought it, no restitution for my lost time and the anguish of having to go to a car dealership and buy something else. Hell, I'm not sure they're even going to cover the sales tax to turn it in. I've moved states since buying it, and I think this state will want to collect taxes on the buyback...

      Oh grow up .. you will be getting more than required by the law and you had use of very nice vehicle. As far as taxes and fess go.. you would had to pay them for any other vehicle you could have purchased.

      As far as taxes on the buyback go.. not going to happen ... I'm not aware of any state the taxes the proceeds from a court case. And I'm sure if there is a lawyer reading this thread I'll be corrected.

    13. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you get a chip that undoes the "fix" that VW applies? Diesel trucks can be chipped to roll coal, so why not an MPG restoration chip?

      Because it is a felony ..... and anyone that is stupid enough to make a compatible chip will be stupid enough to keep complete records of who they
      sold it to.

      And I wouldn't be surprised is the car didn't pop an ODBII code if the chip isn't the original VW chip.

    14. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So then keep the fucking car and continue on with your original plan. You're not entitled to profit. You're entitled to walk away at a protected market rate valuation for the car, just as if you had sold it before the news broke PLUS a premium, PLUS the $1000-1500 you've already received.

    15. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I own a 2014 model... Less than 40k miles. Basically, I can turn my car in, and walk away with $30. According to them anyway... No restitution for sales tax and fee's paid when I bought it, no restitution for my lost time and the anguish of having to go to a car dealership and buy something else. Hell, I'm not sure they're even going to cover the sales tax to turn it in. I've moved states since buying it, and I think this state will want to collect taxes on the buyback...

      So sue them...

      Seriously, get a lawyer, find a group of owners and sue....Class action lawsuits can pay of big, well if you are a lawyer they can... Good luck!

      Pull your head out of your ass ... that is the worst thing he could do. Hiring a lawyer at this point guarantees you get less in return ..

    16. Re:I own one... by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Most everything you're complaining about is on the government, not VW. Basically the situation you're describing is like buying something from a store and paying sales tax, finding out it's defective, returning it for a refund, and the government refuses to reimburse you for sales tax initially paid, and then tries to tax you when use the refund to buy a replacement product.

      They shouldn't be able to have it both ways - either tax the initial purchase or the replacement purchase, but not both. But logic goes out the window when it comes to government and taxes. I'm even reading that some states will try to charge income tax on the buyback amount. Basically making you pay income tax on a refund.

    17. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm from Illinois too!

    18. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Because it is a felony"

      WTF???

    19. Re:I own one... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I assume you mean $30,000, not $30.

      So I took a loss on the value of my trade in when I bought the VW thinking I'd have a solid 200k mi vehicle that would last me 10+ years

      There's your first mistake. VAG cars are notorious for surviving the warranty period and not much after. Especially the diesels which have a bad tendency to blow injectors and turbos... often one after the other. The injector/turbo issues are competing with the DSG (Transmission) to determine which goes first and to be fair, the petrols have the same problem with blown trannies.

      This is doing you a favour, there is no way you'd get a solid 100,000 or 5 years out of an automatic VW diesel. There's a reason so many of them are scrapped after just 3 to 5 years here in the UK. They aren't worth fixing up enough to pass a MOT.

      Save up a bit of cash and buy a Toyota Corolla. Sure they're boring but it'll easily last 1/2 a million miles if given the most basic of oil changes 1000 miles past due. If you cant afford one new, get an old one as they last for donkeys years.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    20. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The average age of a VW when recycled is 26 years, far ahead of all other brands. You may have negative personal experiences, but a single outlier is not necessarily representative. On average Volkswagens are very durable and reliable. This is also why they retain resale value better than most other brands. VAG cars in general and those with diesel engines even more so have a well-deserved reputation for lasting for a very long time, often requiring only routine maintenance.

      Toyotas are quite good too, but they don't last as long as Volkswagens and they tend to slowly disintegrate as they get older, so repairs become more expensive than their market value at some point. That is also why you see old Volkswagens everywhere, but old Toyotas are even rarer than new ones.

    21. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When did the OP say it was free? I can't speak for them but I would imagine that they paid every month for access to the car. Lets get something very clear. If you pay $300 a month for 5 years for access to a car, and then get all the money you gave them back the car was not free. It was $300 a month. The fact that you get your money back does not relieve you of the burden of paying it.

      Free because the value of the vehicle for buyback purposes is fixed to the value it would have had on Sept 18, 2015 ( as long as you driver 12,500 miles or less
      per year) So from that date until the May 2018 date (IIRC) you have a vehicle that doesn't depreciate in value.. aka free

    22. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe things are different in Germany, but around here in the USA it's not common to see old VW's either (not counting classics of course). It seems most leave the road by about 7-10 years. It seems the car just starts falling apart, and then something expensive breaks and it's done. It's too bad because the cars drive well and are nicely styled, but I'd never own one.

    23. Re:I own one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? In Europe durability is a major reason for people to buy VWs. They are a bit more expensive than other mainstream brands, but they have a reputation for lasting longer (which they often do) and based on that reputation, resale value is larger. Old VWs are often exported to Eastern Europe, Russia and Africa at an age when e.g. Renaults, Fords or Toyotas would simply be recycled.

      The difference is probably in large part due to both sides for the Atlantic getting different models produced in different factories. Many Volkswagens sold in the USA are built in the USA or Mexico, whereas in Europe only niche models such as the Beetle and the Jetta are imported from Mexico. Both of these also have a bad reputation in Europe. It likely also doesn't help that getting original parts is probably more cumbersome and expensive in the USA and that there are probably fewer mechanics with experience with VWs, whereas one can almost walk from one VW dealership to the next in the denser populated parts of Europe.

      I live in The Netherlands and here the Golf IV, which was built from 1997 to 2004, is still one of the most common cars on the road today and I see the model that preceded it a few times a day on average, even though the annual mandatory safety inspections here are very tough (comparable to Germany and Japan). Polos and Passats from the same age are also very common. From what I've seen in other European countries, the picture is pretty similar.

  7. How dare you try to get around us regulating by pecosdave · · Score: 0

    your company out of business!

    Just for that we're going to try to FINE your company out of business!

    --
    The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    1. Re:How dare you try to get around us regulating by shadowp157 · · Score: 2

      Nobody is regulating anybody out of business. Go look at VW's stock performance up until this broke. There's just such a thing as too much coming from your tailpipe. If you ever lived in LA during the 60's, or hell, even up through the 90s then you'd understand.

    2. Re:How dare you try to get around us regulating by sjames · · Score: 1

      I robbed that liquor store fair and square! What's this crap about restitution and jail time?

    3. Re:How dare you try to get around us regulating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. When a full sized pickup has to meet emissions standards, then you can say that. But coal rolling says otherwise.

    4. Re:How dare you try to get around us regulating by hey! · · Score: 2

      And yet other companies manage to stay in business without committing fraud.

      The reasons for emissions regulations are so that when consumers make the cost/performance tradeoff when buying a car, they don't externalize costs -- which is an economist's way of saying make other people pay for their choices. A car would be cheaper and perform better if it didn't have a catalytic converter (just dump your partially burned hydrocarbons on everyone else), EGRs (just dump your NOx on everyone else), PCVs (spread engine oil over everyone else) and mufflers (dump your noise on everyone else).

      All of that stuff you'd be dumping on everyone else costs everyone else. You can argue about precisely how much it costs them, but it is certainly not zero.

      So let's turn your little rhetorical device around: How dare you fraudulently make the public subsidize your business?

      Here's the thing about markets: they're not about making everyone happy. They're about efficient distribution of resources. If costs go up producers are unhappy and some of them go out of business. That makes the owners and workers unhappy, but it is a rational response to costs going up. Dumping those costs on others and pretending they don't exist isn't rational; it's hysterical.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    5. Re:How dare you try to get around us regulating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The affected cars emit less NOx than the average vehicle on US roads today and less of any of the other pollutants than over 90% of new cars sold today. The problem was not the actual tailpipe emissions, but the fact that the engine code violated the rules: it should run in the same mode during tests as on the road.

    6. Re:How dare you try to get around us regulating by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      I fail to see where VW stole anything or did anything that wasn't a response to an arm-twist.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    7. Re:How dare you try to get around us regulating by sjames · · Score: 1

      New cars in the U.S. must meet emissions regulations or you can't drive it. So a new car that doesn't meet requirements is not drivable and so is not fit for purpose. But they represented that it was. So if you bought one, they ripped you off. Would you prefer the government say "too bad, so sad, that's an expensive paperweight you have there"?

      Or perhaps you believe you're a special snowflake entitled to dump any amount of toxins you want into other people's air?

    8. Re:How dare you try to get around us regulating by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      What I think is these little VW's pollute less than most any other diesel on the road and that over-regulation is keeping more reasonable and efficient vehicles off the road. I would rather see 20 of these VW's regardless of their firmware status than one Chevy Silverado Rollin' Coal. They rigged their computers because they being held to unrealistic expectations while some guy in an F350 dually who uses it to get groceries and show off doesn't have to worry about it.

      I'm not pro pollution. I'm pro common sense. I know my gas powered Jetta can hit 40 MPG if I don't have the A/C on and the traffic isn't stop and go. I imagine the diesel gets better mileage. I'm against government ruining a good thing in favor of a bad one.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    9. Re:How dare you try to get around us regulating by sjames · · Score: 1

      The hack was to pass emissions without including a urea system. With or without the hack, nobody in the market for an F350 or similar was ever going to choose the VW. With the urea system, they could pass emissions without the cheat.

      As for the trucks, I'm all for tightening up regulations there, particularly when they are used exclusively as passenger vehicles for no good reason. Rolling coal should carry a hefty fine due to the willfulness.

  8. Wake me up when there's handcuffs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right now all I see are government bribes, rich lawyers, and a lot of little people getting compensated for cars that run well enough to get them to and from work every day.

    If anyone under the C-Level Exec suite goes to jail, you know it was a setup.

  9. Easy criminal penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pursuant to the clean air act and 18 U.S.C. 3571, the penalty is either twice the revenue earned on TDIs that contained the defeat device or $10k-$500k per offense, i.e. violating car sold. This probably works out to around $100k per violating car sold. I hear there are about half a million violating cars sold.

    $100,000 x 500,000 = $50,000,000,000. $50B. Market cap is over $65B. Rule of law prevails and company still worth $15B. Everybody happy.

    1. Re:Easy criminal penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another stupid box of rocks that doesn't know what market cap is. It is the value of the STOCK, not the COMPANY.

    2. Re:Easy criminal penalty by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Stockholders who bought VW at a market cap of $65B are not happy. Book value of VW - closer to the actual worth of the company, not worth based on assumptions of future earnings - is $54B. That leaves a company with a real worth of $4B and a very severe cash flow problem, and an overhanging threat of further "legal" action. It's time for the German government to step up and say "Fick dich" (google translation) to the US court system and negotiate a more reasonable settlement based on actual damages.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    3. Re:Easy criminal penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's time for the German government to step up and say "Fick dich" (google translation) to the US court system and negotiate a more reasonable settlement based on actual damages.

      This WAS a settlement that VW agreed on. Presumably because things could've been worse and VW didn't like the idea of having their US assets seized to pay what they might've been ordered to pay.

  10. This is how you spell "shakedown"... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $15,000,000,000.

    Really. Were peoples lives so ruined that they need to return the cars and get payouts. I fail to see how emotional hard is caused by finding out your vehicle is not a eco-friendly as you had been told.

    First world problems.

    1. Re:This is how you spell "shakedown"... by toonces33 · · Score: 1

      I think VW gambled that they would only get a slap on the wrist. But had that happened, then cheating by other manufacturers would be rather likely. The EPA wanted t make an example of VW so that nobody else would be tempted to do the same thing.

      I would note that there are cities all over the world with serious smog problems, and most of them are not in the first world.

    2. Re:This is how you spell "shakedown"... by aXis100 · · Score: 1

      The car is not compliant, that's why they are offering returns & payouts. It makes no difference if people care about compliance or not, it is legally required to be compliant in order to be on the road, period.

      Then, if people choose to get a fix they will be left with a car that is less powerful, because that's how the cheat mode worked. People will end up with a worse car than they bought, and that's why they are offering compensation payments.

      But don't let the facts get in the way of a whinge!

    3. Re:This is how you spell "shakedown"... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      "Make an example" is an example of injustice.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    4. Re:This is how you spell "shakedown"... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The car is not compliant, that's why they are offering returns & payouts. It makes no difference if people care about compliance or not, it is legally required to be compliant in order to be on the road, period.

      Then, if people choose to get a fix they will be left with a car that is less powerful, because that's how the cheat mode worked. People will end up with a worse car than they bought, and that's why they are offering compensation payments.

      But don't let the facts get in the way of a whinge!

      So dealers are going to get a lot of cars returned. I assume they are not going to scrap them, but instead install the fix and resell them. I wonder what the used prices will be for them. Assuming you can live with the lost power, they might be interesting, if the price was cheap enough. I assume people won't be able to renew their emissions inspection without the fix, so the cars will get the fix or get scrapped, presumably, though they might be able to sell them in a country that just doesn't care, though I can't see VW doing that directly.

      I only drove one diesel car. It was an oldsmobile that we rebuilt the engine on. that was a mistake. The engine was originally a gas engine that oldsmobile had adapted. It wasn't really strong enough to be a diesel. I believe one of the things we had done was to mill the crank, then build it up a bit with welding and precisely grind it to specs. That probably weakened it further. The crankshaft broke in two not long after the rebuild. Still, it was fun driving a car with a lot of torque. These days I have a couple old MR2s. I still kind of wish they would rerelease the 1993 MR2 turbo, but without any kind of sunroof, and perhaps 2 more inches of legroom. It will never happen of course. I don't think the market is there for a 2 seater..

    5. Re:This is how you spell "shakedown"... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think VW gambled that they would only get a slap on the wrist. But had that happened, then cheating by other manufacturers would be rather likely. The EPA wanted t make an example of VW so that nobody else would be tempted to do the same thing.

      Then why didn't the EPA employ the same approach the many dozens of times other manufacturers where caught? The whole affair leaves a very strong smell of favouritism and protectionism.

      I would note that there are cities all over the world with serious smog problems, and most of them are not in the first world.

      That is very serious problem, but more or less unrelated. "Dieselgate" is about NOx, not about particulates, the pollutants that form smog. The affected VW TDIs meet particulate norms under all circumstances and actually produce even fewer particulates on the road than during emissions testing, since engine management, especially in diesel engines, always involves a tradeoff betwoon particulates and NOx emissions. Dieselgate did not make the cars contribute more to smog.

  11. Clickbate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Headline claims "$15 Billion Volkswagen Settlement" while the opening sentence says "A federal just has approved the largest auto-scandal settlement in U.S. history, a $14.7 billion settlement"

    They are off by 300 million dollars.

    How can we trust anything this writer claims?

    1. Re: Clickbate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still wondering about the federal just.

    2. Re:Clickbate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Headline claims "$15 Billion Volkswagen Settlement" while the opening sentence says "A federal just has approved the largest auto-scandal settlement in U.S. history, a $14.7 billion settlement"

      They are off by 300 million dollars.

      How can we trust anything this writer claims?

      The missing $300M is the lawyer's fees that VW is paying separate of the class action suit.

  12. Can SW fix it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course sw can fix it.
    Oh, you mean FIX it.
    Yeah, that too.
    Please sign here. Beech.

  13. Pollution standards good, but untennable by caseih · · Score: 3, Interesting

    To me this VW emissions scandal, and many others, kind of shows just how difficult if not impossible it is to set standards that apply at all time under all conditions in the real world. The only way to monitor emissions in real-world conditions is to monitor them in real time as we drive. Every car across the planet, and then relay that information to some central location. And then what I think you'll find is that most engines don't meet the strictest standards a lot of the time. And it will vary as much on people's driving habits as anything. Punch it off the light and you're going to emit a lot more particulates than cruising. Drive it hard while cold and you'll pollute regardless. And even gasoline engines likely emit much more particulate pollution than we thought before, especially with direct injection.

    That's not to say pollution standards aren't good. A car that meets standards under controlled conditions is going to be a lot cleaner under any circumstances than an engine that didn't meet those standards under controlled circumstances.

    1. Re:Pollution standards good, but untennable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the point - VW and others who get caught, are caught for intentional cheating. Rather than investing resources in "real" engineering they use the money to run a scam.

    2. Re:Pollution standards good, but untennable by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      kind of shows just how difficult if not impossible it is to set standards that apply at all time under all conditions in the real world

      There's nothing wrong with the standards if someone is cheating on reporting them.

      he only way to monitor emissions in real-world conditions is to monitor them in real time as we drive.

      And that would fix a crafty engineer lying how? Or are you suggesting the EPA install a permanent monitoring system on every different make and model of car? Likely this will be installed by a manufacturer and then tested at a specific interval, to a specific standard .... which the car can detect and lie about.

      Easier solution. Jail time for people involved, big fine for the company, and show people that non-compliance won't be tolerated. Then you can keep the same standard which other cars seem to be doing just fine with, albeit with the higher street price as a result of the additional systems in place to actually meet the required regulations.

    3. Re:Pollution standards good, but untennable by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      A much simpler way would be to randomly select a small number of drivers of each model and fit their cars with emissions monitoring equipment. The sensors are tiny and often built in to modern vehicles anyway. Then just set an average limit per year, averaged over all the monitored drivers with a few outliers discarded. Real world measurements with randomized selection to prevent cheating.

      This would allow you to do other stuff like require only so many % degradation per year.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:Pollution standards good, but untennable by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      What about putting a car into a big closed warehouse/hanger-style building in a rural area away from roads, and for a few hours drive it around with a mix of stop-and-go and cruising, then measure the pollution in the warehouse?

      Temperature and humidity may be difficult to control, but this would be more to catch cheating and blatant deviations from more controlled tests. In other words, controlled tests would still be the primary tool, but the warehouse test is to verify things don't differ too much from controlled tests.

      It's less precise, but more realistic.

    5. Re:Pollution standards good, but untennable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have never seen one of these Portable Emissions Measurement Systems, have you? I doubt most car owners would be happy to be randomly selected to have their car fitted with such a system for an extended period.

  14. Firing up diesel-powered microwave oven by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Firing up diesel-powered microwave oven. Inserting popcorn.

    Fry the krauts. Fry them. Ooh, I hope this crashes Germany's economy and torpedoes the EU. Ooh, the glee when Europe is abolished.

    Squirm, Fritz, Squirm!!!! HAAAHAHHHAHA

    1. Re:Firing up diesel-powered microwave oven by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two lost world wars didn't manage do that, this won't either.

  15. Who gets all the Money? by neoRUR · · Score: 1

    Who gets all this free money? I will probably be collected over years, but what does it go for to reduce the deficit? Why not give it to the people to help spur the economy, or use it to find the Mars missions or something positive, instead of some layers pockets.

  16. How is this bigger than GM killing 13 people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    GM covering up and failing to recall vehicles for a known ignition switch issue that led directly to the deaths of 13 people:
    $35 million

    Volkswagen fiddling their emissions tests:
    $14.7 billion

    Hmmm......

    1. Re:How is this bigger than GM killing 13 people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It gets even worse. Even when GM did the exact same thing it got away very easily.

      GM fiddling with emissions tests:
      $45 million

  17. Megafraud discovered, nobody goed to jail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So the environment and consumers are frauded upon at very large scale by a corporation and nobody responsible goes to jail ?
    The fine is huge but I would expect the people that committed the fraud would get jail time at least.

    1. Re:Megafraud discovered, nobody goed to jail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Criminal investigations are ongoing and "around thirty people" are currently under suspicion, according to the Braunschweig public prosecution office. However, the criminal proceedings will take a long time, so it will be a while before anyone goes to jail.

      Furthermore, the actual violations are environmentally completely insignificant. The affected cars emit less NOx under typical use than the majority of other cars and the affected cars have extremely low emissions for all other pollutants. It is very bad that there was a cheat and it's bad that the people who wrote it lied to their employer and to the authorites, but let's not pretend there is any actual damage. The coverage and the litigation of dieselgate have most likely already caused more environmental damage than the scandal itself.

      The scandal is mostly a way for US authorities to damage the reputation of a foreign manufacturer, to further the careers of a number of public officials and to grab a number of billions in the process. Other manufacturers, especially the Detroit Big Three, have been caught cheating dozens of times, often with much more serious violations and got away on the cheap, with very little press every time. Dieselgate was an opportunity and the Americans grabbed it with both hands and exploited it to the full extent.

  18. Completely overblown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is nothing but the U.S. launching at a chance of getting $19B into the economy while at the same time hurting a major competitor in their own market, favoring U.S. manufacturers. There is no way the emission cheating amounted to even a single billion in costs. This is even more disgusting than the emission cheating itself.

  19. Fines in Europe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's pretty great that they will pay compensation to US residents. I wonder if there will be any fines in Europe, given that we (our politicians) are all Germany's bitches over here.

    1. Re:Fines in Europe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It hasn't been established yet whether VW's defeat device actually broke the law in Europe. There is a loophole that allows defeat devices when they are claimed to be a measure to protect engine components. It could be argued that VW's software went above and beyond what is reasonable. That would however also mean that the engine management software in the vast majority of other cars violates the law too, since almost all cars tested (with the ironic exception of the recent VW group cars) employ strategies to minimise the use of emissions control strategies outside of the test regime. Strategies found so far:

      - Narrow thermal windows, sometimes from just below the minimum to just above the maximum temperature cified for emissions tests
      - Differentiating between hot and cold starts, as emissions tests have to be performed after a completely cold start
      - Regenerating the NOx adsorber when it detects the prescribed preparations for an emissions test
      - Switching of emissions controls above the maximum RPM and speed used in the emissions test
      - Switching of emissions controls above the altitude of the highest-located test centre in Europe
      - Switching of emissions controls after 22 minutes (the emissions test takes 20 minutes)
      - Detection whether the rear wheels moving along

      There are probably more tricks that haven't been found yet. It was known for years that most diesel cars only meet NOx norms during tests, many petrol cars only meet PM and CO limits during tests and almost no car comes anywhere close to its official CO2 value in the real world. It is easy to cheat and manufacturers do it all the time. There is a large grey area and manufacturers will exploit that whenever they can.

      VW may have stopped cheating and will probably be very cautious of doing anything fishy for years to come, but the others will continue to do so as long as the type approval agencies will let them. Since these agencies have no interest in going beyond what the laws and regulations require of them, it is up to politicians to enforce a stricter interpretation of the regulations and more scrutiny. However, politicians have a vested interest in protecting their national car manufacturers, so Fiat Chrysler was cleared without any real investigations in Italy despite clear evidence of cheating and the French government removed all evidence of Renault-Nissan's cheating from the official investigation report. The only way out is if Brussels steps in and starts to hold the national governments accountable. There are some signs that that will happen at some point in the future, but it will probably take years.