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SpaceX Moves Past Explosion With New Launch Plans (cnn.com)

SpaceX plans to resume launching rockets as soon as next week, after completing an investigation into a spectacular launch pad explosion that destroyed a rocket and a satellite in September. From a report on CNN: The news comes following an in-depth investigation into the explosion of a rocket from SpaceX's September mission. The company said in a statement Monday the botched launch was due to a failed pressure vessel in a liquid oxygen tank. The vessel buckled, causing liquid oxygen to accumulate. It believes this led to friction, sparks and the explosion. SpaceX conducted the investigation along with officials from NASA, the Federal Aviation Authority, the U.S. Air Force and the National Transportation Safety Board. The Federal Aviation Administration will have to sign off on the report and issue SpaceX a license to launch. SpaceX appears optimistic it will be launching rockets again soon.

75 comments

  1. Good for SpaceX by mykepredko · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know I come across as somebody who knocks Mr. Musk, but we need more entrepreneurs like him pushing the barriers.

    1. Re:Good for SpaceX by nitehawk214 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because nobody at ULA makes any money, and they certainly don't have taxpayer paid launches.

      Might want to take a look at the dollar per payload on competing heavy lift platforms.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    2. Re:Good for SpaceX by gman003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can have $70M of your taxpayer dollars used on his rockets, or you can have $160M of your taxpayer dollars go to Lockheed Martin and Boeing. Your choice.

      So:
      * Cheaper by 55%
      * Built entirely in America
      * Doesn't give money to a country we're sanctioning
      * No design elements from the 1970s
      * Company is doing innovative things to drive down costs even more in the future
      * Slightly more likely to explode

      Seems like a good thing to me.

    3. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know I come across as somebody who knocks Mr. Musk, but we need more entrepreneurs like him pushing the barriers.

      From knocking to sucking dick in under 60 seconds, you must love the taste of your own shit.

    4. Re:Good for SpaceX by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2

      One might have more sympathy for ULA once they are capable of flying without Russian engines.

    5. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would rather my money go to Boeing or Lockheed then a conman that cuts corners with safety.

    6. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can do rocketry as ULA does; exactly like we've been doing for the past twenty+ years and have it cost exactly the same as it has for the past twenty+ years.

      _Or_ you can invent new, _substantially_ more cost-effective ways of doing rocketry. Whenever you're doing something new in a high-energy field, there's a chance of explosive failure. (Remember Apollo 1?) Hell, explosive failure happens even when you're doing the same old thing. (Remember Challenger? Columbia?)

      The only con SpaceX is revealing is the long-play ULA and others like them have been running on the American People. Rocketry can be cheaper, better, and require only domestically-sourced components. All that was required to make this happen was someone who gave enough of a shit to make it happen. This could have happened _decades_ ago, but didn't because the Big Aerospace Contractors were more interested in milking the government teat than providing the best value to the American People.

    7. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "and have it cost exactly the same as it has for the past twenty+ years"

      If that were the case it wouldn't be so bad, but ULAs costs (effectively still Lockheed & Boeing, just now cooperating instead of competing) skyrocketed after their "merger". Going from somewhere in the realm of $200 M per launch to somewhere north of $400 M. Prices didn't remain level (inflation adjusted), they grew.

    8. Re:Good for SpaceX by ogdenk · · Score: 2

      You honestly think Boeing and Lockheed haven't blown anything up and we've never experienced rockets exploding upon launch before when overpaid pork-barrel contractors are involved? Remember the Navy's kaputnik? Remember Challenger? Remember many test pilots killed in experimental planes? How about combat pilots killed due to the P-38's issues in a dive?

      Stop being a shill. Rockets explode sometimes, especially ones that are innovative and new.

    9. Re:Good for SpaceX by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      One might have more sympathy for ULA once they are capable of flying without Russian engines.

      That's a non sequitur. Parts is parts, and the Russkies make superlative engines. You don't have to start all over again for every company. NASA uses Russian engines too.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    10. Re:Good for SpaceX by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      What does NASA use Russian engines in, other than ULA rockets?

      "Parts is parts" is a way of saying "you should only think about economics and technology, and not any of the secondary effects." This often leads to disaster.

      I bet there are some industries that the North Koreans are really good at. We have a reason, however, for not giving them lots of dollars to spend on anything they want. The Russians are no different.

    11. Re:Good for SpaceX by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      You can have $70M of your taxpayer dollars used on his rockets, or you can have $160M of your taxpayer dollars go to Lockheed Martin and Boeing. Your choice.

      This is kind of how this is supposed to work. There will always be a place for Government launches, and the place for private launch companies will expand. I cannot understand why so many people cannot understand that, unless they are looking to end rocketry altogether.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    12. Re:Good for SpaceX by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What does NASA use Russian engines in, other than ULA rockets?

      "Parts is parts" is a way of saying "you should only think about economics and technology, and not any of the secondary effects." This often leads to disaster.

      I bet there are some industries that the North Koreans are really good at. We have a reason, however, for not giving them lots of dollars to spend on anything they want. The Russians are no different.

      Well, tell me why the Russian Engines are not good for use, instead of just telling me I am wrong, because reasons.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    13. Re:Good for SpaceX by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      Having a dependency on the Russians for transport to ISS and rocket engines for US military payloads has tied the hands of the US when they really should have taken much more severe economic measures against Russia over the Ukrane.

    14. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, I mean he is a bit crazy but did manage to put a fire under the asses of two entrenched behemoths in radically different industries.

    15. Re:Good for SpaceX by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Having a dependency on the Russians for transport to ISS and rocket engines for US military payloads has tied the hands of the US when they really should have taken much more severe economic measures against Russia over the Ukrane.

      Life in a world of globalization.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    16. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Barriers like causality? I have no idea how to move things that have already happened, but luckily this doesn't stop Musk.

    17. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is nothing innovative about space ex's death traps.

    18. Re:Good for SpaceX by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      Life in a world of globalization.

      Not worth the cost if it means you have to lie down with the likes of Putin, etc. You might save money and operate more efficiently over the short term, but the long-term expense is much larger than any short-term gain.

    19. Re:Good for SpaceX by ogdenk · · Score: 2

      There's plenty of obvious innovation. If you can't see that, you're either stupid or trolling.

      To be a death trap, they'd have to kill someone in it first. So far they have yet to kill someone unlike previous NASA contractors.

    20. Re:Good for SpaceX by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      * Cheaper by 55% * Slightly more likely to explode

      Seems like a good thing to me.

      Which option is better really depends on what you're launching and what "slightly" is exactly. If you're launching the $8 billion James Webb Space Telescope and the risk is 10% higher with SpaceX, then the extra $90 million is going to be worth it.

    21. Re:Good for SpaceX by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      That space telescope cost $8 billion to develop. Making a second one exactly like it would cost an order of magnitude less.

    22. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ULA has launches scheduled on two separate pads at Cape Canaveral. Right now. I'd bet they're making money, and I'd bet they didn't pay market rate for a launch facility. Nobody schedules two unprofitable launches, and certainly not without a subsidy. And that's just for the coming 2-3 months. Don't fool yourself. ULA isn't ignoring any financial shenanigans that SpaceX is "getting away with".

      SpaceX has pad 39A all to themselves and is modifying it to work with Falcon Heavy. Falcon 9 can launch from an unaltered pad. Boeing has pad 39B for their new rocket they've built for the SLS program.

      Interestingly, both 39A and 39B are for sale. The going rate seems to be in the range of about $1.3M.

      On a related note, Kennedy Space Center is well worth the $50 for a day-pass. Make sure you take the bus tour. The exhibits are cool, but seeing the VAB and actual launch facilities is definitely the best part.

    23. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apollo 1 through 7. All made with pork. All barbecued shortly after ignition. 'Nuff said.

    24. Re: Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot to add explodes on pad.

    25. Re:Good for SpaceX by gman003 · · Score: 1

      An order of magnitude less than $8,000,000,000 is still $800,000,000 - which is still an order of magnitude greater than the price difference between ULA and SpaceX. I won't begrudge NASA if they play it safe and go with a more reliable launch system for JWST.

    26. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're launching the $8 billion James Webb Space Telescope and the risk is 10% higher with SpaceX, then the extra $90 million is going to be worth it.

      But is the risk 10% higher (or any percentage higher) with SpaceX? Also, have you heard of insurance?

    27. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not looking at the geopolitical implications.

    28. Re:Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, a country that supposes itself a superpower should be embarrassed to have been caught with its pants down. They are working to remedy the situation by fostering multiple US-based suppliers.

    29. Re: Good for SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obvious troll is obvious.

  2. Hope this is true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Launch schedules slipping have really caused a headache for my business these last few months. Still, I don't see SpX10 launching on schedule in late January. I'd expect mid Feb at the earliest.

    1. Re:Hope this is true by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ten minutes after Challenger blew up, the other engineers I worked with and I were saying to each other: "Watch, it'll come down to some idiot middle manager screaming "Whaddya MEAN I can't ship on time???". The thing about Rocket Science is: IT'S FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE!!! Shut the fuck up about your pulled-out-of-your-ass ship date!

    2. Re:Hope this is true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Challenger was launched right before Reagan's SOTA address, which was a massive scheduling fuckup right there. Obviously in those circumstances there would be high-level pressure not to delay the launch, and that was confirmed during the post-crash investigation.

    3. Re:Hope this is true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I guess the -1 on my other post is because I was wrong. I think I've got it:

      State of Titanius Anglesmith!

      PS to the moron who modded down the other reply, SOTA is not an acronym for any sort of speech. If you insist on having the standard Slashdot sense of humor (nil) then how about this:

      SOTU, not SOTA (+5, Informative)

    4. Re:Hope this is true by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Challenger was launched right before Reagan's SOTA address, which was a massive scheduling fuckup right there. Obviously in those circumstances there would be high-level pressure not to delay the launch, and that was confirmed during the post-crash investigation.

      What happened even has historical president: "Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?"

  3. Resentment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So worried about someone else getting ahead, you will end up living in a mud hut complaining that no one is doing anything to make things better.

    As Carrie Fisher said (yes, Princess Leya) "Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die." I'm sure she took it from someone else.

    1. Re:Resentment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good point! You should speak up anytime references Trump negatively.

      Also, it's Leia.

    2. Re:Resentment by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 0

      Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

      Ever hear the saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Resentment taken to excess is silly, but at reasonable levels is simply a memory aid.

    3. Re:Resentment by DickBreath · · Score: 1

      As the Narn, the Minbari and Vorlon were turning to leave, Luke Skywalker raised his hand with his fingers parted in a V and said "Live Long and Prosper".

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
  4. Would be nice... by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

    ... to actually get to see a detailed breakdown of the cause of the last explosion, rather than having to piece it together from bits and pieces of what's been said so far.

    So far, it seems that there was (expected) supercooled liquid oxygen seeped into the CF reinforcing fibers on the helium COPVs (as was expected), which was just above its freezing point. They then began loading cold helium. Had the oxygen stayed liquid, it would have squeezed out (expected behavior). Rather, the oxygen wasn't able to seep out fast enough, and the increasing pressure caused some of it to solidify, blocking the escape of oxygen from the CF. LOX is inherently unstable in contact with organics, including carbon fibre, and can detonate under high temperatures, high pressures, shocks, etc; it has to be handled gingerly. In this case, the pressure continued to rise as the COPVs filled, until the LOX reached a critical pressure and detonated - thus rupturing the COPV reinforcement, thus the COPVs, thus the second stage and destroying the vehicle.

    That's what it sounds like happened. But it'd be nice to get that confirmed or corrected if inaccurate. If this is correct, there's a number of things they could do to remedy it; I'd think the most likely would be to fill the COPVs before loading LOX.

    As a side note, I'm really uncomfortable with their plan to make IPS entirely out of carbon fibre. As they're finding out (and has others have found out in the past), it's really difficult to use LOX with composites. And perhaps most importantly, inconsistently difficult. And the failure modes can be catastrophic - instant explosive rupture at the point of failure. Aluminum is not only light, but (by pure coincidence) one of the easiest things to work with LOX, as the oxide layer does a good job protecting the metal (even still, aluminum can detonate in contact with LOX in the right temperature/pressure/shock conditions, but said explosions are only self-propagating under significantly elevated pressure conditions). Also coincidentally, aluminum-lithium is even more resistant to reaction with LOX than lithium-free aluminum alloys. Basically, rocket manufacturers have been "having it easy" working with LOX by virtue of making rockets out of aluminum. You give that up when you go to composites.

    But.... it's their rocket company, I guess we'll see how it goes.

    --
    For the love of Crom, am I the only one here who wants to keep the U.S. technologically competitive?
    1. Re:Would be nice... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We probably have ITAR to blame for not being able to read the full report. You can make all the FOIAs you want, ITAR is always going to be the excuse because all of the details of using a COPV successfully in a rocket is for the moment a trade-secret of a US company which the country doesn't want to hand over to North Korea, etc.

      Besides it being their rocket company, they are making every effort to optimize delta-V over weight when nobody else in their market is trying. Otherwise, they would be using metal tanks and not attempting a high-risk technology like densification. You're going to blow up a few rockets if you take those risks.

    2. Re:Would be nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, oxygen is neither "unstable" nor "explosive". Your scenario is that oxygen, which by design was present at the CF (carbon fiber reinforcement?) detonated because it was also pressurized to (less than, probably) design pressures? That can't be right - you don't design a system so that it has areas which are likely to detonate. From what I understand, they are claiming the LOX solidified under some "buckles" used on the CF tanks and that friction led to heating which led to combustion of the CF. (I say combustion, you say detonation, there's no difference there...). They also mentioned sparks. I'm dubious. Anytime you have either movement (friction) of one material against another, you can have static - I get that. And fluid flow *is* motion - I get that, too. So, the system was designed to create conditions for the potential build-up of static. The problem I'm having is imagining that the discharge was large/hot enough to create the conditions for self-propagating combustion. They'd have to be some kinds of idiots not to design for that. It's Safety Engineering 101. But, I am not familiar with the tanks, so I admit my skepticism is one based from a very uninformed perspective. What I want to know is: have they duplicated the detonation under controlled lab conditions which are identical in pressure, temperature and material compositions (gases, liquids, & solids)?? If not, then until they do, I'm from Missouri.

    3. Re:Would be nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We'll all take your word for it. Musk has no idea what he's doing.

    4. Re:Would be nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Musk has no idea what he's doing.

      Correct

    5. Re:Would be nice... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      If this is correct, there's a number of things they could do to remedy it; I'd think the most likely would be to fill the COPVs before loading LOX.

      Which undoes the primary reason for loading the helium after the LOX, and the primary reason why the helium tanks are in the LOX tank in the first place - cooled to LOX temperatures, the helium tanks can hold more helium than at ambient. What they'll probably do is control the helium pressure more carefully prior to and during LOX loading to prevent the tanks from buckling. Which will be a major PITA, as the supercooled LOX is loaded so late in the sequence.
       
      Not using supercooled LOX isn't an option, 1st stage recovery demands absolute maximum performance (and a larger than usual 2nd stage), otherwise the max payload weight goes all to hell.

    6. Re:Would be nice... by Rei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      LOX is unstable in contact with most organics. To the point that with the exception of some fluoropolymers, it's generally considered that all organics have a critical pressure in which they'll spontaneously combust with LOX. For many organics that pressure is below atmospheric pressure (aka hypergolic). For most plastics it is above atmospheric pressure, but not tremendously so. This includes the epoxy binders used in composites.

      Yes, CF is the standard abbreviation for carbon fibre.

      The LOX is supposed to be squeezed out of the CF as the COPVs pressurize. The COPV are comprised of a non-permeable aluminum inner liner and a permeable carbon fiber overwrap that bears the load. By freezing solid, the LOX was unable to escape the overwrap as the pressure increased as the COPVs were filled, and was correspondingly pressurized inside of it.

      The system was not "designed so that it has areas which are likely to detonate". The LOX was supposed to be squeezed out of the overwrap, not become trapped in it as SOX.

      None of their statements that I've come across mentioned "heating". They did, however, mention that the solidification of the LOX led to a pressure buildup. I've read quite a few LOX handing guidebooks (for working on a project involving LOX), and LOX pressurized against carbon fiber is considered an explosion hazard. You don't even store LOX in composite containers in low pressure conditions long-term. You know the main differences between a LOX dewar and a LN2 dewar? The latter often has either no lid and/or contains plastic or composite or silicone components. The former always has a lid and does not contain (non-fluorinated) plastic or composite components, and rarely silicone (fluoropolymers are usually okay). Also some metals don't work with LOX either.

      It's not a case of "you say detonation, I say combustion". The spontaneous pressure-induced reaction of LOX and CF is a detonation. The rocket as a whole however was primarily consumed by a deflagration (non-supersonic combustion) between LOX and RP-1.

      Nowehere in anything that I've seen from them were "sparks" mentioned.

      Your "sparks" and "temperature" comments are directly in contradiction to SpaceX's comments about the conditions causing the formation of SOX and preventing the egress of LOX from the overwrap.

      --
      For the love of Crom, am I the only one here who wants to keep the U.S. technologically competitive?
    7. Re:Would be nice... by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

      They then began loading cold helium. Had the oxygen stayed liquid, it would have squeezed out (expected behavior). Rather, the oxygen wasn't able to seep out fast enough, and the increasing pressure caused some of it to solidify, blocking the escape of oxygen from the CF.

      So if I understand the logic of these tanks correctly: The He tank necessarily is at high pressure relative to the LOX tank, as it will be pressurizing the much larger LOX tank as it empties. CF is strong enough to hold the tank together against this pressure, but can't prevent seepage through it. The aluminium layer prevents gas escape, but contributes little to the structural strength of the tank - hence when filled, it expands like a balloon until the CF prevents further expansion, which necessarily compresses the CF. (Because LOX will seep through the CF to contact the inner layer, the inner layer has to be something which plays nicely with LOX, and aluminium does so, but this is probably a happy coincidence rather than a reason why aluminium was chosen.)

      An alternative fix would be add an outer aluminium layer (which could be very thin) to prevent LOX getting into the CF. However, the integrity of this outer layer would be critical - if it leaked a little LOX in, it would impede its exit when the tank pressurized, which would likely cause explosive failure.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    8. Re:Would be nice... by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      Indeed, and sometimes COPVs designed for other uses have various outer linings or coatings to protect the CF. But this comes with mass penalities. And rocket engineers are anything if not focused on not including any mass that they don't feel that they absolutely have to. And remember, SpaceX had no problem with their COPVs exploding prior to this one event; none of their testing had previously induced an explosion. So it's understandable that they'd have felt that it was fine. But LOX can be a harsh mistress. Not as unpredictable as, say, H2O2, mind you. But reading through past LOX incidents can be enlightening. For example, the Bell X1-D - it ultimately turned out to be that the gaskets had been treated with a softener, and that softener got into the LOX tank - and as soon as the tank started pressurizing, they hit LOX's critical pressure with the chemical and it detonated.

      It's worth noting that the prototype ITS LOX tank that they made (also CF) is linerless. No coatings at all, just bare CF. Now, that's a different situation, it's not part of a helium COPV and thus not subject to the exact same failure scenario. But one doesn't have to wrack their brain too hard to come up with other failure scenarios related to transient impact, friction, general heat, bending or shock (all things that can set off LOX reactions). With aluminum, LOX reactions require fairly severe conditions, and generally self extinguish. With CF, that's not the case.

      But perhaps I'm too much of a pessimist. I really want SpaceX to prove me wrong here and show that you can make safe, reliable LOX tanks out of CF :)

      --
      For the love of Crom, am I the only one here who wants to keep the U.S. technologically competitive?
    9. Re:Would be nice... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      I believe they are using the word "buckle" to refer to pressure-induced deformation, not a kind of fastener.

    10. Re:Would be nice... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Informative

      Of course, oxygen is neither "unstable" nor "explosive".

      Every year or so, I stand on Pad 34 and someone tells the story of Apollo 1. I remember the day it happened, too. It's one every engineer should hear.

    11. Re:Would be nice... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      cooled to LOX temperatures, the helium tanks can hold more helium than at ambient.

      One issue is that Helium non-intuitively cools off when pressurized. Filling the helium tank froze the oxygen.

    12. Re:Would be nice... by deathguppie · · Score: 2

      ya having worked for years with composites I can see your POV. Autoclaved CRP is inherently porous, The difficulties in sealing it for this kind of purpose is well known. Under low pressure loads you can depend on the secondary sealing material applied to it after baking but it does leave a lot of potential holes in the matrix.

      --
      once more into the breach
    13. Re:Would be nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Some nits:

      (1) When they started loading the helium, it was cold, presumably cooled like the LOX was -- by boiling off liquid N2 in sub-atmospheric pressures, to perhaps ~60-65 Kelvin.
      (2) Valving the helium into the COPVs involved valving it into the low-pressure COPVs, causing it to cool. Doing this at room temperature, helium (or hydrogen) will not cool, but at liquid air temperatures, it will work like an air conditioner expansion valve. Apparently...
      (3) This cooled at least parts of one COPV to below 54K (the melting point of oxygen), crystallizing it around the COPV's metal inner liner.
      (4) Like silica, sugar, many plastics, &c, oxygen crystals are triboelectric. Rubbing, crushing, stretching, etc., them will cause electric charge separation (like shuffling on carpet in the winter), and potentially electrical discharges.
      (5) In the intimate environment between the carbon (fuel), polymer matrix (epoxy? polyester?) (fuel), and oxygen, a small spark is (apparently) enough to ignite the COPV/oxygen, leading to a rupture of the COPV and more destruction.

      This could be fixed and will probably be addressed in a variety of ways:

      (1) Load warmer helium, so that it doesn't cool to 54K.
      (2) Change the COPVs so that the liners don't separate from the polymer windings. (Harder.)
      (2a) Coat or seal the COPVs so that oxygen can't infiltrate its structure, and/or find a sealant that isn't flammable, even in a LOX environment (there aren't many, and they may not be suitable. Teflon?)
      (3) Move the COPVs out of the oxygen tank. (Harder yet; there's little space, and keeping the helium cold means the COPVs don't have to be as large or as strong.)

    14. Re:Would be nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, it cools off when high pressure helium is valved into lower-pressure tanks, like freon through an air conditioner expansion valve.

      Helium and hydogen are unusual in that they *don't* cool when this is done at room temperatures. They *do* when you do it at liquid air temperatures. That's one of the reasons (their extremely low boiling points being the other) that they were the last gasses to be liquified.

    15. Re:Would be nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting. Oxygen pressure fittings are invariably 'no grease' -- any kind of organics are strictly forbidden.

      However, in a slightly different arena, liquid hydrogen handling systems must be rigorously sealed against atmospheric intrusion. LH2 boils at 20K, and will condense solid air/oxygen. Crushing/breaking these crystals will cause detonation in the LH2 environment: they're triboelectric, like sugar, silica/quartz, and many/most plastics.

      Crushing oxygen crystals between COPV windings is likely similar...

    16. Re:Would be nice... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      Are you sure you have that right? I think helium's Joule-Thompson coefficient is inverse at LOX temperatures. The tanks in question are brought up to 5000 PSI. My understanding is that this non-intuitively cools the helium.

    17. Re: Would be nice... by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a side note, I'm really uncomfortable with their plan to make IPS entirely out of carbon fibre. As they're finding out (and has others have found out in the past), it's really difficult to use LOX with composites.

      Well for one thing the pressure in a COPV is several orders of magnitude higher than in a LOX tank so it seems foolish to over react to a failure of composites under extreme pressure and exotic conditioned when future applications will be different in nearly every way. Secondly, you could always work exactly the same as a COPV and line the interior of the composite structure with a thin layer of aluminum to prevent any contact at all. In fact we don't even know if that's not already the plan. In this instance SpaceX simply didn't think it was necessary to prevent contact of LOX and carbon and they were arguably right until they pushed the conditions slightly too far, it's telling that they are returning to flight with the exact same hardware.

      You can't radically upset the economics of space flight by doing the exact same things the exact same way everybody else has always done it. You'll end up with the same thing at the same price.

    18. Re:Would be nice... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's the pressure. I don't known what the JT point would be at thousands of PSI.

    19. Re:Would be nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the non rocket scientists looking for an explanation, I learned a lot from Scott Manley's video on the subject (on Youtube). Easy enough to look up; I don't expect anyone to trust an AC link anyway.

    20. Re:Would be nice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, it's one that every engineer shouldn't need to hear. It was absolutely idiotic.

    21. Re:Would be nice... by cjameshuff · · Score: 1

      It also depends on the way the helium is expanded. In free expansion, it'll cool and gain a large amount of kinetic energy. If expanded through an insulated porous plug, it'll gain a small amount of kinetic energy but heat up. It's basically down to where the energy released in the expansion ends up.

      As the helium swirls around the tank, turbulence and friction will convert the kinetic energy it gained in expanding into the tank to random heat. However, when it is released into the tank, I'd expect it to cool due to experiencing more or less free expansion, so while the average temperature of the tank may rise, cold spots seem likely.

  5. Is this news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A couple rockets exploded. Well, it's a pretty risky endeavor. Of course they are going to continue. No one expects them to say "Well, we failed a couple times, better stop trying."

  6. Vandenberg weather horrible next Weekend by TheSync · · Score: 2

    Vandenberg AFB is forecast to have 50% chance of precipitation Saturday, 80% Sunday and 60% Monday.

  7. Good Luck SpaceX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wish them luck, they're about the only company doing anything really interesting in the space access industry. And much of the other halfway interesting stuff being done (Vulcan, Adeline (Ariane 6 reusable ver), etc) as a direct result of their projects. They need worthy competitors to keep them honest, but they also deserve some leeway as they are doing what was thought by many in the industry to be impossible a decade ago (recovery of first stage of an orbital launcher).

  8. Re:Musk's Deceipt by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

    Right, so the existing military industrial complex doesn't have politicians in their pocket or gain taxpayer money either. Got it.

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  9. Re:Musk's Deceipt by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2

    I do believe that the use of Russian engines dates from an ill-guided attempt to keep newly-unemployed Russian scientists and technicians from going into the WMD business. I find it difficult to accept that ULA, having charged the US Government $1 Billion per year just for a promise to stay in business, could not maintain a non-Russian engine capability.

    There's also the issue of two competitors for Federal launch, Boeing and Lockheed, forming a Trust and not being blocked from doing so.

    It's pretty clear they went hand in hand with legislators to ripping off the US taxpayer the way they did. This doesn't cause me to have more sympathy for them now.

  10. Re:Musk's Deceipt by deathguppie · · Score: 1

    f you look at the history of the RD-180 engine you will realize that the engineers where already out of a job long before the Soviet Union fell. The original RD-180 engines tested in the US were pulled from an old warehouse and dusted off. The entire RD-180 program was built on desire of ULA to purchase the engines.

    --
    once more into the breach
  11. Re:Musk's Deceipt by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

    This is no longer a good argument because Russia has its own commercial launch industry now that actually beats the shit out of America's (until Musk came along). Musk got the US back into the game of commercial launch. No thanks to ULA .

  12. Re: Musk's Deceipt by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

    There's also the issue of two competitors for Federal launch, Boeing and Lockheed, forming a Trust and not being blocked from doing so.

    While I applaud your anti-monopolistic inclination this wasn't a merger born out of anti competitive acquisitions or even a "we will lower prices by removing redundancy" this was a case where one Company won the contract and then it was found out that the other company had stolen designs through industrial sabotage.

    The birth of ULA was the result of a very messed up and disastrous legal scandal. Effectively a shotgun wedding nobody really wanted to pave over the whole affair.

  13. Re: Musk's Deceipt by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

    You mean industrial espionage. And it might be that was really the only reason for forming ULA, but the end result was that the taxpayer got screwed.

  14. Re:Musk's Deceipt by koreanbabykilla · · Score: 1

    Pretty sure it was these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... pulled from the warehouse to test.