Next-Gen Samsung EV Battery Gets 300+ Miles of Range From 20-Minute Charge (techcrunch.com)

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Next-Gen Samsung EV Battery Gets 300+ Miles of Range From 20-Minute Charge (techcrunch.com)

Posted by BeauHD on Monday January 9, 2017 @09:25AM from the twice-as-fast dept.

An anonymous reader quotes a report from TechCrunch: Samsung's SDI battery subsidiary announced a new battery cell designed for use in electric vehicles that offers improved density to manage a max range of up to 372 miles on a full charge, with a quick charge capacity that will help it regain 310 miles or so of charge on just 20 minutes of charging. Unveiled at the North American International Auto Show for the first time, the new battery tech come with a 10 percent decrease in the number of units and weight required vs. current production battery units made by Samsung SDI. Mass production isn't set to begin until 2021, but the tech should arrive in time to supply the first crop of autonomous cars, which are also targeting street dates sometime within that year from a range of manufacturers. A 20-minute charge delivering that kind of range would help considerably with making EVs more practical for more drivers; it's around the time you'd spend at a rest stop using the restroom and grabbing coffee or a snack, after all. By comparison, Tesla's superchargers currently manage to provide around 170 miles of range on a half-hour charge, so Samsung's planned tech could approximately double that.

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Not to rain on the parade, but... by Digital+Avatar · 2017-01-09 09:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm sure it'll be available at the low, LOW price of just $50,000. Such a bargain! That is, ultimately, what keeps most people from ever considering an electric vehicle: They're just too damn expensive.
1. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by MatthiasF · 2017-01-09 09:42 · Score: 1
  
  You either pay a premium today to slow the damage of combustion engines or pay the full price later when the damage has been done.
  
  If you do the math, that premium is cheaper in the long run.
2. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:52 · Score: 0
  
  In 1913 the average income was about $15,000 and a car cost about $30,000, in today's dollars. Today average income is about $50,000 and a Tesla is about $100,000. Cars were new technology in 1913; Tesla's are new technology today. Makes sense to me.
3. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by yodleboy · 2017-01-09 09:55 · Score: 1
  
  As if everyone has 50k to spend on a car and they are just being jerks by not purchasing an EV.
4. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:57 · Score: 0
  
  What worries me is the charging.
  300+ mile range is 100Kwh or so of power.
  Charging that in 20 minutes will be around 300Kw, 300V and 1000A or 1000V at 300A or some variation thereof.
  Any way you look at it the cable and connectors will be ridiculous.
5. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by ShanghaiBill · 2017-01-09 10:21 · Score: 1
  
  In 1913 the average income was about $15,000 and a car cost about $30,000
  "Nothing has spread socialistic feeling in this country more than the use of automobiles. To the countryman they are a picture of arrogance of wealth with all its independence and carelessness." -- Woodrow Wilson
6. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by Desler · 2017-01-09 10:24 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  In 1913 the average income was about $15,000 and a car cost about $30,000, in today's dollars.
  Not even remotely true. A Model T cost $525 in 1913 which is only $13000 in 2016 dollars. Also the average income was $800 or approximately $19700 in 2016 dollars.
7. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 10:27 · Score: 0
  
  I'll stop having a place to live and I'll stop eating for the next five years to afford a car.
8. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Grishnakh · 2017-01-09 10:29 · Score: 1
  
  I didn't read TFA, but I wonder if 100Kwh is really accurate, or are they estimating a 300 mile range from a vehicle much smaller and lighter than a Tesla S? Teslas are not very efficient cars: they're heavy and have wide tires, and are made for higher performance rather than ultimate energy efficiency. Making them the size of a Leaf, with some low rolling-resistance tires (which of course have terrible cornering performance) should significantly reduce the battery capacity needed for that range.
  Anyway, the cable and connectors shouldn't be *that* ridiculous, if you have a high voltage (enabling your 300A option). A typical dryer connector I believe has a 50A capacity, and there's industrial connectors out there with a lot more. These cables shouldn't be much more unwieldy than a typical gas-station hose that everyone uses to fill up their car.
9. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by ShanghaiBill · 2017-01-09 10:33 · Score: 1
  
  What worries me is the charging.
  300+ mile range is 100Kwh or so of power.
  This is not about home chargers, in your garage. This is about charging on the road, during long trips. 100Kwh in 20 minutes is 300 Kw. At 220v, that is about 1400 amps. For an industrial connection, that is not unusual. A Tesla Supercharger delivers close to that amount of power, and there are often several of them co-located.
  When you charge at home, you usually do it overnight, and are just topping up the 10-20% you may have used during your commute.
10. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Ranbot · 2017-01-09 10:53 · Score: 1
  
  ...ultimately, what keeps most people from ever considering an electric vehicle: They're just too damn expensive.
  Not necessarily... Just like regular cars you can find bargains if you buy used and you still get all the EV's long-term cost savings others mention. In July 2015 I bought a certified-used 2013 Nissan LEAF with 11K miles on it for ~$15K. If I had bought that car new in the same trim it would have been ~34K. It's been great. Someone else took the bulk of the depreciation hit, I still get the vast majority of the factory warranty, fueling is cheaper, maintenance is cheaper, and inspections are cheaper (no emission test needed). All of my charging has been in my garage overnight on a standard 120V line (no special charging system installation), which is way more convenient than any gas station. I have never been stranded out of charge (you adapt to the range very quickly). My wife has an Honda Accord, so we use her car for longer trips or swap cars if I need to go further than the LEAF's range for day. Whether it's "green" isn't even a factor, because the bottom line is it saves us money.
11. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:05 · Score: 0
  
  >You either pay a premium today to slow the damage of combustion engines or someone entirely different from you pays the full price later when the damage has been done.
  ftfy
12. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Ranbot · 2017-01-09 11:06 · Score: 1
  
  What worries me is the charging.
  I think people worry because they are stuck in the mindset of going to a station to "fill up." But, a typical EV owner would do the vast majority of their charging at home overnight, which for many people a standard 120V line is sufficient. It's the only way I've charged my Nissan LEAF for the past year a half of owning the car. There are charging stations around me and I could install a faster 240V charger in my house, but I have no need them.
13. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:08 · Score: 0
  
  Cars: http://cta.ornl.gov/data/tedb34/Spreadsheets/Table10_10.xls
  Income: http://visualizingeconomics.com/blog/2008/05/04/average-income-in-the-united-states-1913-2006
14. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by OneHundredAndTen · 2017-01-09 11:09 · Score: 1
  
  In 1913 the average income was about $15,000
  Can you present supporting evidence? I find it VERY difficult to believe, bearing in mind that, in the late 70s, a $30K a year was a good salary.
15. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Obfuscant · 2017-01-09 11:18 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  In July 2015 I bought a certified-used 2013 Nissan LEAF with 11K miles on it for ~$15K. ... because the bottom line is it saves us money.
  The current price for a Leaf replacement battery is $5500 plus install etc., so say $6000 ballpark. At $2.50/gallon, that's 2400 gallons of gas. Say you get a car that does 30MPG, that's 72,000 miles.
  Your used car was driven 5000 miles per year. To go 72,000 miles, that would be 14 years of driving. The expected lifetime of the battery pack is 10 years. You're four years short of breaking even.
  You already limit your driving due to range, relying on a second car for longer trips, or just a lot of small trips in a day. That car costs money that you haven't factored in. Yes, you might claim that you need a second car anyway so the cost doesn't add in, but every time you are using that second car you prevent it from being used for its original purpose, and so the costs do add in.
  Is your electric car really saving you money in the long run? Yeah, you get to laugh at people who have stopped at the gas station as you drive by, but they'll be laughing at you when you complain about a $6000 battery change. And it will be even funnier in five years as you sit by the side of the highway wondering why you didn't get the same range from your battery that you got today, and how could you have miss-planned this trip so badly?
16. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:25 · Score: 0
  
  I believe the $15k figure was adjusting for inflation.
17. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Applehu+Akbar · 2017-01-09 11:30 · Score: 1
  
  As your urban commuter car, yes. Only if you have a 300-mile-range Tesla could you contemplate a road trip, and you would have to plan ahead for charge points where you can spend an hour or two at a time.
18. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by naughtynaughty · 2017-01-09 11:34 · Score: 1
  
  As if it cost $50k to buy an EV
19. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Ranbot · 2017-01-09 11:39 · Score: 1
  
  First, as much as I appreciate your analysis on my household transportation finances, I'll point that my wife and I have had two ICE cars for years before (we each have jobs to commute to, so we're not getting by with one car). I swapped my ICE for an EV. So, no real change in our finances other than spending less on one of the cars.
  Second, regarding the fear-mongering over battery changes, it's simply overblown. If you want to see how these batteries perform in real world conditions all you have to do is look at the hyrbids, like the Toyota Prius, which have been on the roads since around 2002. Have you heard massive battery replacement issues with hybrids? Nope... The battery tech EVs is very similar, it's just bigger. These are not cell phone batteries designed to wear out in 2 years. I still have years left on my factory warranty and you quoting me today's replacement EV battery prices are really no bearing on what EV replacement battery prices will be years from now if I need to do that. Mind you that, in addition to fuel savings, with an EV you will never have to fix an exhaust system, transmission, radiator, alternator, or many other ICE related parts. You don't even change oil in an EV. If a battery replacement is needed someday, I've probably made up that cost elsewhere.
20. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by naughtynaughty · 2017-01-09 11:40 · Score: 1
  
  The expected lifetime of a battery is not 10 years, the battery has a warranty for 10 years but just like a car with a warranty of 3 years that doesn't mean the car is expected to only last 3 years.
21. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by Desler · 2017-01-09 11:44 · Score: 1
  
  Cars: http://cta.ornl.gov/data/tedb3...
  
  Yes, a list of "averages" that are likely heavily skewed by a few very expensive models at the time. On the other hand, there were plenty of options that were far less than that average. The Model T being one such car. So your original claim was highly misleading. People had options for cars that weren't nearly as skewed compared to their income as your original claim makes it seem.
  
  Income: http://visualizingeconomics.co...
  
  I'll give you this one. Different methodologies depending on who does the numbers give varying figures.
22. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by minogully · 2017-01-09 11:51 · Score: 1
  
  If you're going to compare battery replacement costs to gasoline costs, you're in the realm of the lifetime costs of the vehicle. So, to really compare apples to apples, you've got to also factor in maintenance costs of your ICE vs maintenance costs of the EV.
  
  EVs don't require oil changes and thanks to regenerative braking usually don't require new brake pads for the life of the vehicle. There will be no transmission repairs to do or transmission fluids to top up, just to name a few things.
  
  If you take the maintenance and repairs costs of a Honda civic over 10 years, according to this site, you'll have spent $7516, then subtract the maintenance and repair costs of a Nissan Leaf, and you'll have $1694 in the bank.
  
  Then instead of inflating your numbers by rounding up to $6000, let's keep it at $5500, then subtract the $1694 you'd save over 10 years. Then do the same math that you did above and you get 9.13 years of driving before you need to replace the battery.
  
  It looks to me like more of a break even, and that's with the crappy Nissan Leaf which is notorious for having a poor battery life thanks to its lack of active cooling.
23. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Obfuscant · 2017-01-09 11:52 · Score: 1
  
  the battery has a warranty for 10 years
  From here:
  
  Every U.S. specification Nissan LEAF is backed by a New Vehicle Limited Warranty providing: ... 96 months/100,000 miles (whichever occurs earlier) Lithium-Ion Battery coverage.
  Ninety-six months is 8 years.
24. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Obfuscant · 2017-01-09 12:06 · Score: 1
  
  So, to really compare apples to apples, you've got to also factor in maintenance costs of your ICE vs maintenance costs of the EV.
  Yes, you do. And there are so many possible failures for either vehicle type that the only reasonable analysis is based on "all things being equal". That is, all four wheels could fall off your normal car and you have to pay to fix that at a bundle of money, but so could all four wheels fall off the EV.
  
  Then instead of inflating your numbers by rounding up to $6000
  From here, "It's a surprisingly low $5,499 (after a $1,000 credit for turning in the old pack, which is required), plus installation fees and tax. The installation is estimated at roughly 3 hours of labor." So, $5500 plus tax and labor (3 hours) plus the $1000 trade-in. That's more that $6500, so I think it is fair to round to $6000 as the true cost.
  
  then subtract the maintenance and repair costs of a Nissan Leaf, and you'll have $1694 in the bank.
  It's interesting that you subtract an amount that is LESS than the cost of the battery replacement. You've forgotten to add in all the incidental costs of operating the EV in your analysis.
  
  and you get 9.13 years of driving before you need to replace the battery.
  You managed to lower the TBO by about 9% by adding in a lot of incidental costs to the normal car and ignoring the total cost of the battery replacement and ALL of the incidental costs for the EV. And you still wind up past the warranty for the battery.
  As for the charge of "fear mongering" that the OP made -- don't be silly. I am not trying to make you afraid of anything. I'm simply questioning, with supporting numbers, the surface level cost analysis you did that leaves you claiming that it saves you money.
25. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 12:19 · Score: 0
  
  Oh well, I tried :-)
26. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Ranbot · 2017-01-09 12:31 · Score: 1
  
  Road-trippers would likely rent or have an ICE. Planning charging stops sounds like PITA and make for a much longer trip. Whatever... I am not an EV cultist. My wife and I have a two car household, one is ICE and the other as a commuter EV just works well for us. Your results may vary.
27. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by OFnow · 2017-01-09 14:13 · Score: 1
  
  Nope. On a long trip most stops will be 20 minutes at a SC and for a really long leg (or one up a mountain or in really cold or hot temperatures) one might, once in a while, take an hour. The distance between Super Charger stops would be 100-140 miles, usually. Driving from San Francisco to Palm Desert we stopped more than 20 minutes just once. To eat.
28. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 15:28 · Score: 0
  
  Note that hybrids may not be the most accurate point of reference, because most of them like the Prius have historically used nickel-metal hydride batteries rather than lithium-ion, and don't use them as heavily.
29. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 16:36 · Score: 0
  
  There's one billion cars in the world, I'm not sure if that includes rigs and other commercial vehicles.
  Keep in mind that the two-stroke used by Pablo to mow and clean your lawn is unregulated.
  Don't think about the 3800 passenger planes taking off multiple times per day.
  Under no circumstances should you consider the emissions of the mining required to get that sweet sweet lithium.
  Your single EV car purchase is definitely not just for your conscience and peace of mind. NO NO NO, it's helping, it really really is.
30. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 16:56 · Score: 0
  
  You're missing the point, EV is infallible. /sarcasm
31. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 18:41 · Score: 0
  
  A Model T cost $525 in 1913 which is only $13000 in 2016 dollars.
  
  And that would be the no-frills version. Probably less comfortable than some of the higher-end ATVs today, more the match of the Tata Nano, which is somewhere under the equivalent of 5,000 USD.
  Not at all comparable to Tesla's models. Those are very high-end, and quite customer-oriented. Ford was customer-antagonistic at times.
  I suppose if we cut the safety features, far cheaper vehicles would be possible, but do we want that option? And in performance, I think it topped out at under 50 mph.
32. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by AaronW · 2017-01-09 20:06 · Score: 1
  
  I have almost 50K miles on my Tesla Model S (P85) and have not noticed any loss in range. The general consensus is that there is less than 5% loss in range after 100K miles with the 85KWh battery pack. The batteries are not the same as those used in cell phones and are much more rugged. I spend $50/month ($0.12/KWh) on electricity and drive around 1000 miles/month with most of that charging being at home. It's a big car, so I'm spending a fraction of what I'd spend on gas for a similar car, especially a car with similar performance. My brake pads don't get a lot of use, there's no transmission, fuel pump, fuel injectors, belts or oil changes to worry about (motor is lubricated for 12 years). Mechanically my car's drive train is much simpler than any ICE car. As you said, the price per KWh for batteries is dropping fairly rapidly. I expect that if I end up needing to replace my battery I'll end up with a bigger battery than what my car came with with the price being quite a bit less than what was quoted when I bought the car. When Tesla gets their battery factory going full bore they expect to drop the price by another 30%. Already Tesla is leading the industry in terms of lowest cost/KWh.
  There are a few things in common with an ICE car such as electric power steering, a cooling system which in some ways is more complicated but handles far less heat than an ICE car, climate control, etc, but in general it's much simpler. One just needs to look under the hood and see the huge amount of space where the big monstrous engine and transmission is missing. I don't think you can get more reliable than an induction motor either since there aren't even any brittle magnets full of rare-earth metals to be demagnetized.
  The only maintenance I need to worry about is rotating and changing the tires, wheel alignments, changing the cabin air filter and wiper blades. Even the brakes should last longer. Eventually I'll have to get a lube job on the motor... at 12 years. I suppose the coolant and brake fluid also needs to be changed at some point, but I don't have to do regular oil changes, change the fuel filter, engine air filter, belts, etc.
  
  --
  This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
33. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 21:50 · Score: 0
  
  As a Nissan Leaf Driver who drives 18,000 miles a year:
  I previously had a 1.6 litre Nissan Juke which I bought new. I know, don't judge me. I was paying £250 a month in petrol. This car cost me £16k.
  I was given a Leaf as a courtesy car when my Juke went in for its 12 month service. A week later I owned one. This was back in 2013. I paid £23k new.
  These days I pay £30 - £40 a month in additional electricity for 'fuel' from my household supply. A full charge at home takes 3 hours at 240V 32A.
  I rarely charge away from home - I'd say 95% of charging is done at home. The Leaf cost me £80 a month more than a Juke, giving me a net saving of ~£130 a month by buying an "expensive" EV.
  Granted, everyone has different circumstances and it just so happens to work out well for me. I live in Manchester, but a few times a year I drive to London or Glasgow, each of which is ~200 miles each way, then driving around the city itself etc.
  The motorway infrastructure in the UK has grown so much in the past 3 years that range anxiety has pretty much disappeared. Pretty much every motorway service station in the UK now has multiple rapid chargers. a 30 minute charge costs £6 (until July it was totally free, as often as you wanted), and will realistically get me 80 miles. It might not sound great, but it is still better cost equivalent per mile than petrol, and it is a sacrifice I am willing to make considering most of my driving is local miles.
  So yeah, EV's are "so expensive" that mine saves me £130 a month. Go figure.
34. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by arglebargle_xiv · 2017-01-09 22:01 · Score: 1
  
  What they don't mention is that once the first lot of Samsung batteries have finished burning you need to feed more into the firebox or you lose steam pressure and therefore range.
35. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by minogully · 2017-01-10 00:56 · Score: 1
  
  then subtract the maintenance and repair costs of a Nissan Leaf, and you'll have $1694 in the bank.
  It's interesting that you subtract an amount that is LESS than the cost of the battery replacement. You've forgotten to add in all the incidental costs of operating the EV in your analysis.
  You've misunderstood what I've done. I took the maintenance and repair costs of a Honda Civic ($7516), and subtracted the maintenance and repair costs of the Nissan Leaf ($5822) over 10 years. This gives us how much money one would save in maintenance and repair costs by owning a Leaf vs. a Civic ($1694). Since it's money you save, you can apply it to the cost of the new battery, which is why it's subtracted off of that cost.
  
  It's interesting that you subtract an amount that is LESS than the cost of the battery replacement. You've forgotten to add in all the incidental costs of operating the EV in your analysis.
  Unless you're referring to something other than maintenance and repair, I'm not sure what you mean by "incidental costs". Though, I suppose I could have been harder on you and factored in how much you save per year on buying electricity instead of gasoline (about $1200/year, in my region). But that would be an additional $12000 in savings over the ten year period. Actually, in just gas savings, you'll have made back your $6000 to replace the battery in 5 years. Factor in the savings on maintenance and repairs and you're getting your $6000 in less than 4 years, compared to an owner of a Honda Civic.
  
  And actually, choosing the Honda Civic as a comparison point gives your side a bit of a break as they tend to have lower maintenance and repair costs, and they have higher mpg than your original 30mpg stated. Take the Ford Focus, you'd be spending almost $1200 more in the 10 year span ($8740).
  
  As for the charge of "fear mongering" that the OP made -- don't be silly. I am not trying to make you afraid of anything. I'm simply questioning, with supporting numbers, the surface level cost analysis you did that leaves you claiming that it saves you money.
  As I'm not the OP, I don't support the "fear mongering" assessment made by him/her. I actually agree with your approach to question the costs with supporting numbers. Which is why I'm doing the same thing to your numbers.
36. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by shilly · 2017-01-10 01:01 · Score: 1
  
  My Zoe on a PCP cost me £2k upfront and then £160 per month (electricity costs are negligible, under a fiver a week). I think that's pretty damn cheap for a new car.
37. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 01:53 · Score: 0
  
  https://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/his/e_prices1.htm
  Public School Teacher Salary = $ 492/year
  Considering the average teacher makes 50K now, that's still an expensive car.
38. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by liquiddark · 2017-01-10 02:12 · Score: 1
  
  They're clearly using adjusted dollars for both figures.
39. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Ranbot · 2017-01-10 04:03 · Score: 1
  
  I'll stop having a place to live and I'll stop eating for the next five years to afford a car.
  You don't have to buy a Tesla and there are deals among used cars. Most "early-adopters" of EVs lease their cars for 1-3 years and then there's a glut of them on the used car markets a few years after the initial fanfare.The depreciation is a bitch for buyers of new EVs, but there are good deals for savy used car shoppers.
40. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 06:29 · Score: 0
  
  Leafs can be had at their annual sales even for about 15-18K.
41. Re: Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 06:44 · Score: 0
  
  His ballpark numbers were pretty good, I thought. In any event a model T would cost significantly less than $13,000 today. For $13,000 today. You could get a 3-5 year econobox, neglect all maintenance (let the tires pop or engine seize), and still get a more reliable, safer, longer lasting car than a model T, probably by an order of magnitude or more.
42. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Obfuscant · 2017-01-10 06:58 · Score: 1
  
  You've misunderstood what I've done. I took the maintenance and repair costs of a Honda Civic ($7516), and subtracted the maintenance and repair costs of the Nissan Leaf ($5822) over 10 years.
  
  No, I understand exactly what you did. You assigned less than the cost of the battery replacement as the cost of maintenance and repair of the EV so it would look like it was cheaper to own and operate. You can't start with a cost of $6500 plus tax and labor for expected maintenance costs and magically lower that to $5800.
  
  Unless you're referring to something other than maintenance and repair, I'm not sure what you mean by "incidental costs".
  I mean you assume there are drive train maintenance costs associated with a normal car but 0 costs in the same category for an EV. The drive trains are different, but that doesn't mean that one of them as zero cost associated with it. The mechanical parts of an EV don't live forever, you know.
  
  Though, I suppose I could have been harder on you and factored in how much you save per year on buying electricity instead of gasoline (about $1200/year, in my region).
  
  I already included the cost of gasoline in the evaluation. That's the part about "assuming $2.50 per gallon", and how I came up with a 14 year break even point. Did you not bother to read what I wrote at all?
  
  Actually, in just gas savings, you'll have made back your $6000 to replace the battery in 5 years.
  Five years at 5000 miles per year is 25000 miles. Thirty MPG makes that 834 gallons. To break even with a $6000 battery replacement (ignoring electricity costs) you'd have to pay $7.20 per gallon of gas. Add in the $1200 in electricity that you'll be paying for, you'd have to pay $8.63/gallon for gas. So no, you will NOT be "making back" battery replacement costs in just five years. Not even close.
  So let's look at your $1200 in electricity costs. At $2.50 a gallon, you could buy 480 gallons of gas for that money. At 30 MPG, that's 14,400 miles. That's almost three times the number of miles driven per year in the analysis. To call the electricity costs "break even", you have to assume -- $7.20 per gallon for gasoline. You're still way ahead on the costs using a normal car. (Remember, the $1200/year for electricity is your number.)
  
  As I'm not the OP, I don't support the "fear mongering" assessment made by him/her.
  
  I didn't say you did. That was why I was explicit in referring to the OP when I commented on that.
43. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by minogully · 2017-01-10 07:52 · Score: 1
  
  No, I understand exactly what you did. You assigned less than the cost of the battery replacement as the cost of maintenance and repair of the EV so it would look like it was cheaper to own and operate
  If you're saving money by owning an EV through less maintenance and repair costs, why shouldn't those cost savings be applied to the cost of battery replacement? It's entirely within scope, we're talking about the true cost of ownership here.
  
  I mean you assume there are drive train maintenance costs associated with a normal car but 0 costs in the same category for an EV. The drive trains are different, but that doesn't mean that one of them as zero cost associated with it. The mechanical parts of an EV don't live forever, you know.
  Because I took the maintenance and repair costs of the Civic and subtracted the maintenance and repair costs of the Leaf, I've factored that in. The whole point is to compare the cost of the Leaf against what you would have already spent by owning the Civic. No where did I state that there was zero cost associated with owning an EV. Just that there are less costs.
  
  I already included the cost of gasoline in the evaluation. That's the part about "assuming $2.50 per gallon", and how I came up with a 14 year break even point. Did you not bother to read what I wrote at all?
  Actually, I take issue with your metrics here as 5000 miles in a year is not a typical amount of driving in a year. I know the OP purchased a Leaf that was only driven this amount, but you can't assume that everyone would drive this little. If anything you need to assume something closer to the figure used across the web of 15,000. So, with your $2.50 per gallon, you'd break even in a third of the time you quote. But I'd much rather work with metric, and the round number used here is 20,000km (12427 miles).
  
  So let's look at your $1200 in electricity costs.
  
  You seem to have issues understanding when I'm stating a value that you are saving vs. a value that you are charged. To help you out, here are the actual numbers I'm working off of for this figure:
  Km/year driven: 20,000
  Average fuel consumption (l/100km): 7.8 (which is 30.1 mpg)
  Fuel consumed in a year (litres): 1560
  $/litre of gas right now: $1.14
  Cost of gas for the year: $1776.84
  
  Cost of electricity ($/kWh): 0.087
  EV fuel economy: 4.6671 km/kWh
  Cost of electricity for the year: $372.8225
  
  Savings of buying electricity over buying gas for the year: $1404.02
  
  (I rounded down to $1200 because it scales nicely per month and is easier to remember)
  
  As you can see, I'm not spending $1200 in electricity costs, I'm actually spending $372.82. So to do the math your way, at 2.50 a gallon, you could buy only 150 gallons (149.128), at 30pmg, that gets you only 4,473.84 miles, whereas I would have driven 12427 miles (20,000km).
44. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by RespekMyAthorati · 2017-01-10 08:26 · Score: 1
  
  The expected lifetime of the battery pack is 10 years.
  Where the hell did you get that from?
45. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Obfuscant · 2017-01-10 08:27 · Score: 1
  
  If you're saving money by owning an EV through less maintenance and repair costs, why shouldn't those cost savings be applied to the cost of battery replacement?
  Because the cost of the maintenance of battery replacement is not lessened by other, presumably lower costs. I'm sorry, you just don't get to tell the battery dealer that you're only paying $3000 for a new battery because you saved $2500 in other places. You still spend the $5500 plus labor and tax, AND you spend the other money that you spent on maintenance. And no, you can't subtract the maintenance costs of one car from the other and then compare the result to the maintenance costs of the other car.
  
  Because I took the maintenance and repair costs of the Civic and subtracted the maintenance and repair costs of the Leaf, I've factored that in.
  You just don't understand. You started with the Leaf battery replacement cost (at least $6000, but more like $6500-$6800 because you need to add in the cost of the turn-in, labor, and tax) and ADDED other costs to wind up with a number lower than $6000. It just doesn't work that way.
  
  Actually, I take issue with your metrics here as 5000 miles in a year is not a typical amount of driving in a year.
  The OP bought a two year old car that had 11,000 miles on it. That's strictly 5500 miles per year average, but "two year old" car can be a bit older than that. We're talking round numbers. He also said that he would not use the vehicle for long trips (out of range of his garage charger) or for days when he was going to cover a lot of miles. This biases the average DOWN from whatever it would be for a gasoline vehicle.
  
  As you can see, I'm not spending $1200 in electricity costs, I'm actually spending $372.82.
  Sigh. I used the number you provided before. I give up.
46. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 11:40 · Score: 0
  
  Look, if Zoe is on £2k of PCP she has a serious problem...
47. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by minogully · 2017-01-10 13:40 · Score: 1
  
  I'm sorry, you just don't get to tell the battery dealer that you're only paying $3000 for a new battery because you saved $2500 in other places.
  No, of course not, no one is suggesting that. But what you can and should do, is put that extra money you save into the bank, then when your new battery bill comes in you can slap down the extra money you saved and reduce the bill.
  
  Now if you're not actually "saving" the money you're saving by driving an EV, I completely understand your point. But being careless with your money is not a valid argument against purchasing something that'll save you money in the long-run.
  
  I'll admit, of course, that the since the savings are mostly seen in fuel costs, you'll see less savings if you drive less. But you'll also have less costs in your maintenance and repair since you won't need to change your tires as often. Your battery will last longer too, so you won't need to replace it as quickly. So working the numbers for battery replacement on a replacement schedule that matches what you'd need for higher mileage (probably 15,000miles/year) but only counting the savings that you'd gain on lower mileage doesn't make sense.
  
  As you can see, I'm not spending $1200 in electricity costs, I'm actually spending $372.82.
  Sigh. I used the number you provided before. I give up.
  Here's the number I provided before, in its original context (emphasis added):
  
  Though, I suppose I could have been harder on you and factored in how much you save per year on buying electricity instead of gasoline (about $1200/year, in my region)
  How do you mix up an amount that you save with an amount that you spend? You don't. Excellent trolling, you had me going hard there. :)
48. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by Barsteward · 2017-01-10 21:57 · Score: 1
  
  You are quoting todays battery prices as the price for 10 years time. Battery prices have already dropped dramatically in price in the last 5 years. Even if the price stayed the same for 10 years it will still be effectively cheaper. Plus by then they should be able to easily convert the car battery into a house battery for use with solar or wind.
  
  --
  "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
49. Re:Not to rain on the parade, but... by shilly · 2017-01-10 22:06 · Score: 1
  
  Very droll
Exploding Option? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:28 · Score: 1

Does it come with the optional Exploding Mode?
1. Re:Exploding Option? by TheReaperD · 2017-01-09 09:39 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Who said anything about optional?
  
  --
  "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
2. Re:Exploding Option? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:42 · Score: 0
  
  Optional? Wasn't the whole technology targeted for ISIS' suicide mission vehicles?
3. Re:Exploding Option? by npslider · 2017-01-09 10:00 · Score: 1
  
  Explosions come standard on all models.
  Also take Note of their mobile options...
4. Re:Exploding Option? by Tablizer · 2017-01-09 11:17 · Score: 1
  
  That's how it goes 300 miles. It's tech licensed from ACME.
  
  --
  Table-ized A.I.
5. Re:Exploding Option? by Applehu+Akbar · 2017-01-09 11:37 · Score: 1
  
  Does it come with the optional Exploding Mode?
  ISIS is already asking that rogue Toyota dealer they use for all their vehicles why Toyota doesn't come out with an electric that has the explosive power of a Samsung.
6. Re:Exploding Option? by Dog-Cow · 2017-01-09 19:08 · Score: 1
  
  I would hope all EVs are mobile.
7. Re:Exploding Option? by fbobraga · 2017-01-10 03:18 · Score: 1
  
  You are clearly sub-estimating the target clients of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Oh god, a Samsung bomb by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:33 · Score: 0

How many people have to die to Samsung batteries before they will stop? 100? 1 billion?
My Lab Tech is better than your production by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:38 · Score: 0

Yet another future product that is over promised and won't be deliver.
1. Re:My Lab Tech is better than your production by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:40 · Score: 0
  
  Even half that and double the time is still 'interesting'.
Cold weather? by dcavanaugh · 2017-01-09 09:42 · Score: 1

What happens then? Does cold weather affect battery performance? Without an internal combustion engine, the only way to get heat in the cabin is via electricity, which is going to impose a considerable burden on the battery.
1. Re:Cold weather? by Luthair · 2017-01-09 09:46 · Score: 1
  
  I believe they also need to warm the battery to operating temperatures to prevent damage.
2. Re:Cold weather? by beelsebob · 2017-01-09 09:46 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I have no details about this battery in particular, but my experience with owning an EV, and knowing others who own them is that range drops around 15% at 0-5C compared to 20-30C.
3. Re:Cold weather? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:47 · Score: 0
  
  Same as any other EV.... not that much of a difference
4. Re:Cold weather? by jrmcferren · 2017-01-09 09:47 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Only on startup will electric heating be required to heat the cabin. Once the battery is up to temperature heating can be accomplished the same was it is now by piping some of the battery coolant through a heater core. If designed correctly (and the driver plans correctly) initial heating can actually be done while the car is still connected to the charger.
  
  --
  sudo mod me up
5. Re:Cold weather? by npslider · 2017-01-09 09:48 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Yeah... this weekend's weather forecast calls for 40 Below Zero in my town (Alaska).
  I wonder how those batteries will do here. Our car batteries get a little cranky w/o either a trickle changer or a battery pad warmer at those temperatures.
  In my parts of the woods, all cars plug in, just not all year round! ;)
6. Re:Cold weather? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:55 · Score: 0
  
  I had a 5-1/2 hour (390 miles) this morning where the temps were 0-5F for the majority of the trip -- I am assuming this is just out of scope for today's battery powered cars -- and am about to do the return trip...
7. Re:Cold weather? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:58 · Score: 0
  
  Batteries get warm in use due to internal resistance. In typical situations where you'd need a quick charge, the battery won't be cold.
8. Re:Cold weather? by short · 2017-01-09 10:01 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  No, you need to warm the battery first only to charge it. This is why Tesla disables recuperation during initial drive with cold battery. When it is cold it only has reduced capacity + current but that does not matter as during winter you do not need super-sport accelerations; and after 30 mins of driving it gets a normal temperature from invertor+engine heat so that you can utilize its full capacity.
9. Re:Cold weather? by Matheus · 2017-01-09 10:05 · Score: 1
  
  Not necessarily out of scope but not nearly as friendly... with Tesla's current superchargers (as described in TFS) you would need to do that trip in 3 legs with a half hour stop each to recharge. With a 15% reduction you may need to make that 4 legs.
  That vs your average IC care these days that could do that trip easy in one leg.
  The features of Samsung's new battery brings EVs WAY closer to practical for a long-distance driver.. not on par with the range of an IC car but back to the old standard of "300 miles / tank of gas" we had before Hybrids and fuel efficiency gains bosted that number much higher. Think of it like SSD vs. Spinning Disc. Early on the price / capacity was unaffordable for most. As manufacturing and tech improved Disk Drives still have significantly more capacity / $ but not quite the gap there used to be. Hybrid cars will have better time-to-fill vs. range for the foreseeable future just because batteries take longer to charge than it takes to shove liquid into a tank but the EV cars are at least approaching "good enough" for most people to be able to make the trade-off.
  My only hitch with Samsung is that 5 years off is a long time in the tech world.. I would hope such specs would be available sooner than that (purely in terms of the batter gains we've made in the past 5 years)
10. Re:Cold weather? by myrdos2 · 2017-01-09 10:10 · Score: 1
  
  You can't charge them below 0C. So you'd need a heated garage. Lithium ion batteries can be used at temperatures down to -40C, but they can't discharge as fast. So you're right at the limit. My rule of thumb is: if you get square tires, don't use your battery.
11. Re:Cold weather? by npslider · 2017-01-09 10:18 · Score: 1
  
  They sell square tires?
  What's next.... Curved TV's?
12. Re:Cold weather? by Ungrounded+Lightning · 2017-01-09 10:51 · Score: 1
  
  They sell square tires?
  I think he's referring to the phenomenon where, in very low temperatures, the tires lose flexibility. So if you park and let the tires cool, the flat spots that were against the road surface stay flat until the car has moved far enough to heat the tires a bit.
  Ka-bump, ka-bump, ka-bump, like driving on square tires (though only one side, not four, is actually flat).
  
  --
  Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
13. Re:Cold weather? by Ungrounded+Lightning · 2017-01-09 11:01 · Score: 1
  
  You can't charge them below 0C. So you'd need a heated garage.
  Or a heater in the battery pack to preheat them up to 0C before the main charging begins. Once they're charging, the slight inefficiency of even the best ultrafast-charge cells makes the problem keeping them cool, rather than keeping them warm enough. (Ditto when they're discharging, of course.)
  If you are going to supply them with, say, 300 kilowatts or so for 20 minutes while charging them, you can spare a kilowatt for a few minutes to drive a heater (just as you supply a block heater with 400 to 1500 watts, the whole time a car is parked in such below-antifreeze weather, to keep a water-cooled engine from freezing hard enough to blow out the freeze plugs and/or make starting possible.)
  
  --
  Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
14. Re:Cold weather? by npslider · 2017-01-09 11:06 · Score: 1
  
  I was actually making a joke cause square tires sounded funny, like something from the Far Side Comics...
  Living in Alaska, we deal with that a lot. When it gets to 25 below zero or colder, I have to take it slow the first quarter-mile or so, so that my squared-up tires have time to safely return to their correct shape. I've been told that driving too fast on stiff tires can damage them.
  And, yup, it sure does go ka-bump, ka-bump! :)
15. Re:Cold weather? by Ranbot · 2017-01-09 11:23 · Score: 1
  
  What happens then? Does cold weather affect battery performance? Without an internal combustion engine, the only way to get heat in the cabin is via electricity, which is going to impose a considerable burden on the battery.
  Not really...Consider this, if the battery is powerful enough to drive the car around for miles then powering a little heater and fan isn't going to tax it that much. I'm driving my Nissan LEAF in Pennsylvania in 20 degree F weather this week and I drove it all through last winter too. There is an ~10-20% hit to the range in colder weather, but the heater [and my heated steering wheel] isn't that big of deal, certainly no more than running the AC in the summer. It gets along just fine. In fact, last winter I jumped my wife's Honda Accord car with my LEAF when her battery died on a very cold morning... in that regard, EVs are more reliable to at least start in the cold.
16. Re:Cold weather? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 14:19 · Score: 0
  
  Not a problem. Couple of years and you'll be as toasty as Hawaii.
17. Re:Cold weather? by OFnow · 2017-01-09 14:27 · Score: 1
  
  Tesla warms (or cools) the battery as necessary before and during charging to ensure the system works. At a SuperCharger recharging at outside temp of 106 degrees F it is faintly amusing to hear the fans in the charging cars all working hard to keep the batteries cool. If cold enough it would probably take a while to heat the batteries enough to really get charging started,....but I have no personal experience of that and am sort of guessing.
18. Re:Cold weather? by evilviper · 2017-01-09 19:05 · Score: 1
  
  Our car batteries get a little cranky w/o either a trickle changer or a battery pad warmer at those temperatures.
  Car starter batteries do terribly in cold weather because they are expected to deliver a huge percentage of their power in a few seconds, when cold. An EV will have a huge battery pack, which is only expected to output a small percentage of its available power gradually over the course of your drive.
  In short, you'll have less range when the batteries are cold, but they will always work just fine (no start-up problems), and you might even see your range increase while you drive, as the batteries heat-up from being discharged.
  And like you said, all cars in cold climates are pluged-in anyhow, so there's really no extra hassle to worry about, and they can be kept in ideal operating temperatures with inexpensive grid power.
  
  --
  Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
19. Re:Cold weather? by Dog-Cow · 2017-01-09 19:29 · Score: 1
  
  as during winter you do not need super-sport accelerations...
  Not that super-sport accelerations are ever "needed", but not every place with cold temps has snow.
20. Re:Cold weather? by short · 2017-01-09 20:52 · Score: 1
  
  You cannot use high power even of a cold ICE. Although ICE warms to its full power capability some minutes earlier than an EV I guess.
21. Re:Cold weather? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 21:10 · Score: 0
  
  As someone who lives in a cold area where snow is fairly common I want to chime in and say that it isn't really the snow that is the issue.
  There is usually at least some humidity in the air so when you get freezing temperatures the roads will get a thin layer of ice crystals on them.
  Regardless that is not really what makes drivers slip off the road.
  The largest problem is stupid people and tourists that doesn't realize that a tire manufactured for warm weather doesn't have traction when they get cold.
  You need two set of tires, one for summer and one for winter.
  You can use mixes that are sort of decent for a wider temperature range but they are never as good as dedicated tires.
22. Re:Cold weather? by BostonPilot · 2017-01-10 01:46 · Score: 1
  
  so, do like the Alaskan bush pilots and throw a lighted pan of gasoline under the battery pack 1/2 hour before you want to go for a drive? ;-)
23. Re:Cold weather? by BostonPilot · 2017-01-10 01:56 · Score: 1
  
  What happens then? Does cold weather affect battery performance? Without an internal combustion engine, the only way to get heat in the cabin is via electricity, which is going to impose a considerable burden on the battery.
  Not really...Consider this, if the battery is powerful enough to drive the car around for miles then powering a little heater and fan isn't going to tax it that much. I'm driving my Nissan LEAF in Pennsylvania in 20 degree F weather this week and I drove it all through last winter too. There is an ~10-20% hit to the range in colder weather, but the heater [and my heated steering wheel] isn't that big of deal, certainly no more than running the AC in the summer. It gets along just fine. In fact, last winter I jumped my wife's Honda Accord car with my LEAF when her battery died on a very cold morning... in that regard, EVs are more reliable to at least start in the cold.
  I drive a Honda Fit EV and have a slightly different experience. In cold weather (it's been around 0 here in Boston the last few days) I lose about 50% of my range if I don't use the electric cabin heater. I attribute this to:
  1) Denser air increasing aerodynamic drag (happens to ICE cars as well)
  2) Can't charge the battery to the full 19kwh
  Later versions of the Leaf use a heat pump rather than just a resistive cabin heater, so that may explain why your Leaf does better than my Fit. I believe the Tesla uses heat from either the battery pack or electric motor to help warm the cabin - I'm sure a Tesla person will jump in and correct me.
  My point is that a compliance car like the Fit EV (so, I'm curious about the Bolt) can take a huge hit if you try to keep the cabin warm. I find that I lose about 1 mile per khw if I keep the cabin at about 65F, my daughter tends to keep it 70-75F when she's driving around town, and that can eat up another mile/kwh...
  My only purpose for posting is that this is something that EV manufacturers need to keep in mind - seems like Tesla may have done the best job of this, Nissan addressed it a couple years into production, and some compliance cars don't do anything special and it can make them much less useful during winter months in northern states.
24. Re:Cold weather? by sh00z · 2017-01-10 02:33 · Score: 1
  
  If you drove 390 miles without taking a break, you're just asking for DVT.
25. Re:Cold weather? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 03:44 · Score: 0
  
  Most likely the battery heater will be always on keeping the battery above the minimum sensible temperature - heating a battery on a typical use car will not use much of the battery power.
  Tesla already do this.
26. Re:Cold weather? by npslider · 2017-01-10 04:43 · Score: 1
  
  I prefer to stay more reasonable and use a fire starter instead of gasoline.. ;)
27. Re:Cold weather? by beelsebob · 2017-01-11 14:23 · Score: 1
  
  With today's cars it's not out of scope, but it's annoying - you'd need to charge even in the highest range of them (315 miles in a P100D, make that 270 in the winter). With a supercharger the time to charge than missing 120 miles is going to be about half an hour.
  The good news is that with this samsung battery, you wouldn't need to charge, but even if you did, with charge point's new 400kW chargers you'd be able to charge enough for your *whole* trip in 15 minutes. In the summer, make that 10 minutes.
Samsung & Battery in the Same Sentence by npslider · 2017-01-09 09:44 · Score: 0

As long as the "tank" is only allowed to be slightly over half-full... should be safe.
How many charge/discharge cycles? by mykepredko · 2017-01-09 09:45 · Score: 4, Interesting

Avoiding the obvious comment/joke/pun regarding fiery past Samsung has with rechargeable products recently, the first thing I always want to see in regards to car battery technology is how many charge/discharge cycles can it handle?
If we were to assume the worst case, a vehicle could be driven 600 miles (two charge/discharge cycles) every day. Multiply that by 300 days in a year and an expected 5 (7?) year life, this is 3,000 charge/discharge cycles and what I see for most lithium battery technology is usually around 500 cycles. This doesn't include temperature extremes (say from -30C to 45C).
Can this (or any) technology provide this kind of life in a car environment? What do Tesla batteries claim to be able to do?

--
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
1. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:55 · Score: 0
  
  Avoiding the obvious comment/joke/pun regarding fiery past Samsung has with rechargeable products recently, the first thing I always want to see in regards to car battery technology is how many charge/discharge cycles can it handle?
  If we were to assume the worst case, a vehicle could be driven 600 miles (two charge/discharge cycles) every day. Multiply that by 300 days in a year and an expected 5 (7?) year life, this is 3,000 charge/discharge cycles and what I see for most lithium battery technology is usually around 500 cycles. This doesn't include temperature extremes (say from -30C to 45C).
  Can this (or any) technology provide this kind of life in a car environment? What do Tesla batteries claim to be able to do?
  You are really expecting to be able to get 900,000 miles (5 x 300 x 600)? Most people will have gone through several cars to achieve that many miles (if they even drive that many in their lifetimes)...
2. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Harlequin80 · 2017-01-09 10:21 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  At 900,000 miles I suspect that the state of the battery pack is the least of your worries..... On any normal car the entire running system has either been replaced or so heavily maintained that it may as well have been replaced.
3. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by EndlessNameless · 2017-01-09 10:37 · Score: 1
  
  If you get 300-400 miles per charge and expect that battery to last 500 cycles, you end up with 150k-200k miles.
  By that point, a vehicle will have aged significantly---and even an ICE would see substantial maintenance costs.
  And, typically, the 500-cycle lifetime is based on the battery being reduced to 80% of its maximum capacity due to wear. It would still be functional---the vehicle will only suffer a reduced range.
  Electric vehicles don't have to deal with things like gearboxes, belts, spark plugs, catalytic converters, etc so the battery can be expensive while still offering a lower total maintenance bill. Unfortunately, we don't have real world numbers for long-term use yet.
  
  --
  
  ---
  According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
4. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Wargames · 2017-01-09 10:55 · Score: 1
  
  How is 600 miles worst case? It wasn't wise but as a kid, I once drove 36 hours straight with maybe a 2 hr nap. Worst case in miles is going to be 24 hours * (max sustainable miles / hour) - number of recharges required * recharge_time. I think a number closer to 1500 miles is more like it. There are toll roads where the speed limit is 85.
  
  --
  -- Each tock of the Planck clock is a new world and here we are still life. --
5. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by mykepredko · 2017-01-09 10:57 · Score: 1
  
  Yes. I am expecting the battery technology to get 900k miles.
  That doesn't mean the drivetrain has to last 900k miles, or the body, or the seats or the whatever...
  I'm expecting the ability of the batteries to go 900k for them to be a demonstrably mature technology that matches typical automotive technology.
  So, if I have say, 5 technologies in the vehicle (batteries, motors, drivetrain, body, interior) that all rated at 900k, then I should be able to expect 300k miles from the entire package.
  
  --
  Mimetics Inc. Twitter
6. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by mykepredko · 2017-01-09 11:07 · Score: 1
  
  How long can you drive 36 hours straight with 2 hour naps in between?
  I picked 600 miles as a reasonable average.
  
  --
  Mimetics Inc. Twitter
7. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:10 · Score: 0
  
  > I'm expecting the ability of the batteries to go 900k for them to be a demonstrably mature technology
  What the living fuck. I don't know any system in my car that is rated for a million miles. I doubt even the radio is.
8. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Ungrounded+Lightning · 2017-01-09 11:24 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  ... the first thing I always want to see in regards to car battery technology is how many charge/discharge cycles can it handle?
  That's the wrong metric for lithium ion batteries.
  As I understand it, the main ageing mechanism that kills them is oxidation of the graphite anode, which starts when the cell is manufactured and isn't appreciably affected by usage except for being accelerated somewhat by being stored at high temperatures with low (20%) charge.
  Charge/discharge cycling does cause some "wear", but it's generally a smaller effect. (That's why the advice for, for instance, laptop batteries is not to avoid using them. For long term storage unused they last the longest if put away at about 40% charge.)
  This means that it's mainly the age of the cells, not their usage or charge history, that determines when they die. A pack designed for 7 years life will probably give you 7 years life unless you either run it nearly all the way down (which the battery management logic should prevent) or run it down to a low charge and leave it out in the sun for months.
  Also: At least one new anode material appears not to age measurably at all.
  
  --
  Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
9. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:36 · Score: 0
  
  OK, so the 0.00001% of Canonball Run trips can be done with gasoline.
  Most people need to slow down and get back to the older way of traveling.
10. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 12:12 · Score: 0
  
  Or it is a good old boring Toyota from 1993 that has the absolute bare minimum done to it, oil changes every 7000miles of lucky, run with 1L of oil for months, run with less than half the coolant utterly abused and still gets 28mpg and drives great. I doubt it'll make it to 300000 miles but 100000 being a limit is a joke
11. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Harlequin80 · 2017-01-09 12:13 · Score: 1
  
  At 900,000 miles you probably have had to replace the fuel tank on your ICE as the mounting brackets have failed. Go knows the fuel filter, fuel pump, injection system, spark plugs, fuel line and every other part had had to be replaced.
12. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 12:36 · Score: 0
  
  > I once drove 36 hours straight
  Right, but by definition, you didn't do this every day. No vehicle is driven 24 hours a day. Even 600 miles a day is frankly an absurd requirement to ask for.
13. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by OFnow · 2017-01-09 14:20 · Score: 1
  
  This is not quite the right question to ask as it hints that 'charging is charging' and 'batteries are batteries'. But Tesla goes to great lengths to control battery temp (cooling or heating the batteries as needed) and charge rate during charging to ensure the best possible batter life. Leaf just hopes you won't let the batteries get too hot or cold when charging (unsure about temp control while driving). I admit I don't quite know how to phrase the 'right question' :-)
14. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by GreatDrok · 2017-01-09 14:34 · Score: 1
  
  "I see for most lithium battery technology is usually around 500 cycles."
  Most devices with Lithium batteries are only expected to last a few years and the important factor is how long the device can run per charge so they tend to use all the capacity. A battery that is charged to 100% will die before one that is charged to less than full capacity. A car should last at least 10 years and the manufacturers have left headroom in their batteries for longevity so when the car reports the battery is at 100% it actually isn't but is more like 80%. Same goes at the other end where there's likely around 20% still left when the car says the battery is flat. Sure, if the car used the whole capacity of the battery like a phone does it would be able to go further on a single charge but it would also degrade rapidly and within a year or so the range would be significantly diminished and by year 3 the battery would pretty much require replacement. Useful info on this page: http://batteryuniversity.com/l...
  
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15. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by evilviper · 2017-01-09 18:40 · Score: 1
  
  As I understand it, the main ageing mechanism that kills them is oxidation of the graphite anode, which starts when the cell is manufactured and isn't appreciably affected by usage except for being accelerated somewhat by being stored at high temperatures with low (20%) charge.
  That's complete nonsense.
  Li-Ion cells absolutely are severely negatively affected by cycling. (PDF)
  That's not to say there isn't calendar fade/degradation of Li-Ion cells. Just that it is far less significant than charge/discharge cycle fade. There is some of both, but that's only a significant concern for long-term standby power applications (not a significant issue for EVs).
  Anecdotally, I recently swapped the battery in my cell phone. The replacement unit was new, old-stock. It was 4+ years old, manufactured at the same time as the dying battery it was replacing, but works quite nicely. No doubt it's slightly lower capacity than a newly manufactured battery would be, but not noticeably so.
  
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16. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Harlequin80 · 2017-01-09 19:21 · Score: 1
  
  But he is talking 900,000 miles. Not 90,000 miles. You have said you doubt you will get to 300,000 miles. He wants 3 times that figure.....
17. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Dog-Cow · 2017-01-09 19:39 · Score: 1
  
  I'd wager zero times. Unless he was hopped up on caffeine (or worse). In any event, boasting about being a menace on the road is not really topical.
18. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by DirkDaring · 2017-01-10 01:24 · Score: 2
  
  500 cycles? It's more than that, but honestly no one really knows. Tesla has the best batteries in operation currently and none of them are that old. Here is more direct data:
  "The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%.
  The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity."
  https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/
19. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by DirkDaring · 2017-01-10 01:26 · Score: 1
  
  These aren't your run-of-the-mill batteries you buy on Amazon.
  "The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%.
  The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity."
  https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/
20. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by BostonPilot · 2017-01-10 02:01 · Score: 1
  
  Agreed. Few cars make it to 300K without being so completely worn out that a majority of parts would need to be replaced. 900K is completely ridiculous. GP has an agenda and is making up silly requirements to try to support it...
21. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 03:49 · Score: 0
  
  Self-driving taxis could drive 24/7 (except recharging). However they are usually driven in urban environments at urban speeds, and will be waiting for passengers a lot of the time (particularly overnight).
22. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 03:54 · Score: 0
  
  Good to know - I had wondered about Tesla battery life for second hand Teslas (which should be non-rare in a few years). Seems that unless the car was driven a lot this is a total non-issue.
23. Re: How many charge/discharge cycles? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 06:22 · Score: 0
  
  Or in reference to the op how many days can you do 36 hours of driving in?
24. Re:How many charge/discharge cycles? by RespekMyAthorati · 2017-01-10 08:34 · Score: 1
  
  How long can you drive 36 hours straight with 2 hour naps in between?
  Uh, by having more than one driver?
Specific Impulse by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:45 · Score: 0, Funny

Since this is a Samsung battery project, the method of propulsion might not be what is expected. Should we be talking about its specific impulse since it might compete with those electric-drive rocket engines?
Autonomous Date by Luthair · 2017-01-09 09:47 · Score: 2

Does anyone else have extreme skepticism that we'll see real autonomous vehicles available by 2021? (Ignoring the parlour tricks we have today)
1. Re:Autonomous Date by naughtynaughty · 2017-01-09 11:51 · Score: 1
  
  The only limitation to getting autonomous vehicles on the road by 2021 are legal/regulatory issues.
  Those "parlour tricks" do a pretty good job of driving already, another 4 years of machine learning and I think they'll do a stupendous job.
  On the other hand, my Aunt Mildred will be an even worse driver in 4 years and my nephew Luke will probably still think he's a great driver but all the tickets he's gotten tell me a different story. I look forward to both of them not being behind a wheel in 4 years.
2. Re:Autonomous Date by Luthair · 2017-01-09 14:39 · Score: 1
  
  As far as I know they have no answers for rain or winter, and still have issues with everyday scenarios. I think people are underestimating the time from figuring out these issues and productizing it. Then as you mention there is still a regulation step where we will need to develop standardized tests to validate the vehicles meet minimum standards and develop legal frameworks.
3. Re:Autonomous Date by evilviper · 2017-01-09 18:45 · Score: 1
  
  Does anyone else have extreme skepticism that we'll see real autonomous vehicles available by 2021?
  Not at all. We'll all have self-driving cars by 2021, but we won't need fast-charging Li-ion batteries because they'll be FUSION powered. Oh, and they will also be able to fly...
  
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4. Re:Autonomous Date by evilviper · 2017-01-09 18:50 · Score: 1
  
  Those "parlour tricks" do a pretty good job of driving already, another 4 years of machine learning and I think they'll do a stupendous job.
  Autonomous cars did a pretty good job of driving a decade ago, too. I'm sure they'll do a pretty good job a decade from now, as well, but like today, still not be quite good enough.
  Google's self-driving cars have reported higher incidents of accidents than human drivers, and most of them are limited to low-speeds, and still need human operators to occasionally get them out of trouble.
  
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5. Re:Autonomous Date by AmiMoJo · 2017-01-10 03:34 · Score: 1
  
  Depends what you consider an acceptable failure rate to be. Better than humans is certainly possible by 2021 at the current rate of development.
  What we have today are certainly not parlour tricks either. The cutting edge has robots moving around urban environments full of squishy people who behave semi-randomly. People claim that it's not "real" because, e.g. the cars rely on GPS to aid navigation. Well, I rely on my memory for knowledge of the immediate area and slow down if it is unfamiliar. And yes, if the maps are wrong they won't simply drive off a cliff.
  There are still corner cases that need to be handled better, but that's true of humans as well. When I learned to drive I was taught to do an emergency stop. The correct action in the event of any kind of emergency was always emergency stop. Not "choose between the crowd of nuns or the on-coming truck", just slam on the brakes.
  
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6. Re:Autonomous Date by RespekMyAthorati · 2017-01-10 08:41 · Score: 1
  
  there is still a regulation step where we will need to develop standardized tests to validate the vehicles meet minimum standards
  It's called "getting a drivers license".
  As soon as a robocar exists that can pass a standard driving test,
  in every state and province, night or day in every kind of weather,
  then I will believer that truly autonomous driving (i.e. nobody in the vehicle) is truly at hand.
7. Re:Autonomous Date by RespekMyAthorati · 2017-01-10 08:44 · Score: 1
  
  robots moving around urban environments
  
  Yes, "urban environments" carefully designed to show what the cars can do, not want they can't do.
So rinse, lather, repeat... how many times? by kimgkimg · 2017-01-09 09:48 · Score: 2

Yeah well that's all well and good, but how many times can this feat be repeated and with what kind of capacity loss to the batteries? Kinda light on the details guys.
1. Re:So rinse, lather, repeat... how many times? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:35 · Score: 0
  
  From my understanding of charging lithium ion batteries, the key to charge them fast without damage (or explosions) is thermal management. Samsung probably found a way to either pull the heat out of the battery while it's charging, or made materials that are more resistant to heating.
Range at what Average Speed? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 09:53 · Score: 0

And did the engineers assume that the typical user would be driving it like a granny or actually using the hundreds of horsepower available to them?
There's a Practical Charging Limit by foxalopex · 2017-01-09 09:55 · Score: 3, Interesting

Although there's a limit to how fast a battery can be charged before it overheats and explodes or simply damages itself, don't forget that there's a practical limit to how much power you can realistically draw from a typical house outlet. A Gallon of gasoline is estimated to have 33.41 KwH! (A normal gas engine throws a good portion of that energy away as heat.) That gallon of gas is pretty close to what my typical household uses in the entire day for electricity! So to pull down the equivalent of a couple of gallons of gas in 20 minutes is going to take the equivalent power drain of a sub-station transformer. It's why you don't see a commercial fast Tesla charger at home. A typical house doesn't use a 480 volt industrial power feed. You don't want much more current in the hands of consumers. A small mistake could cause a nasty explosion / arc.
1. Re:There's a Practical Charging Limit by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 10:04 · Score: 1
  
  So to pull down the equivalent of a couple of gallons of gas in 20 minutes is going to take the equivalent power drain of a sub-station transformer. It's why you don't see a commercial fast Tesla charger at home.
  No, that's not the reason why you don't see a commercial supercharger at home: you don't need that at home because the home use case is much different from "I need a rapid charge to go drive my next 200 miles". That's the traveling use case.
  At home, you plug it in when you get home and take it back the next morning for your day, charged. There's plenty of time in the night to charge your car, even if it feels like a trickle compared to a supercharger.
  Different use cases.
2. Re:There's a Practical Charging Limit by Bryan+Ischo · 2017-01-09 10:12 · Score: 1
  
  Pretty sure that if people could affordably have fast charging at home, they would, even if they rarely used it.
  The OP is correct; the actual reason this doesn't happen is partially because of the safety aspect. Cost being, of course, the much bigger issue.
3. Re:There's a Practical Charging Limit by evilviper · 2017-01-09 19:27 · Score: 1
  
  A Gallon of gasoline is estimated to have 33.41 KwH! (A normal gas engine throws a good portion of that energy away as heat.) That gallon of gas is pretty close to what my typical household uses in the entire day for electricity! So to pull down the equivalent of a couple of gallons of gas in 20 minutes is going to take the equivalent power drain of a sub-station transformer.
  That's some very bald-faced lying.
  You already said that the theoretical energy of a tank of gasoline is mostly wasted, but then you go on to use that same number anyhow, as if EVs must waste just as much energy, for some reason. In fact electric motors and Li-Ion batteries are very efficient, while gasoline engines are very inefficient, so the numbers.
  In fact a Tesla Model S battery ranges from 60-100 kWh depending on how much you spend, so your gas tank is only 2-3 gallons of theoretical gasoline, while still transporting you 300 miles.
  A 60kWh charge in 20 minutes would be no problem for businesses. It's only 375A@480V (3-phase). Here's what 1200 amp, 3-phase electrical service looks like:
  http://www.pesnj.com/uploads/2...
  Does that look like a "sub-station transformer" to you?
  
  A typical house doesn't use a 480 volt industrial power feed. You don't want much more current in the hands of consumers.
  Why in the world would you need 20 minute charging AT HOME? What kind of emergency would necessitate that? Two people sharing a car, both commuting 100+ miles to work, on different shifts?
  Most everyone else plugs-in their car, then GOES TO SLEEP. Who cares whether it charges in 10 minutes, or 10 hours, AT HOME?
  
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4. Re:There's a Practical Charging Limit by AmiMoJo · 2017-01-10 04:01 · Score: 1
  
  People always ask how long it takes to charge an electric car, but that's the wrong question. The correct question is how fast does it charge, and the most suitable units for that are miles/kilometres per hour.
  My Leaf charges at around 30 MPH at home, from a 32A charger. On a rapid charger it's about 150 MPH. So if I need 40 miles range to get home, and of course you never pull up with 0% just as the motor cuts out, I'll probably need to spend 15-20 minutes at the rapid charger.
  Most charging is done while not waiting. Basically you opportunistically charge slowly when doing other stuff, e.g. overnight or while shopping. Sometimes I do a 70 mile trip for shopping, charge on a basic 13A domestic socket in a car park at about 15 MPH, and a few hours later when I'm ready to come home that extra 45 miles range gives me plenty of margin.
  
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Measuring range by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 10:00 · Score: 1

Range based on what kind of vehicle? Listing a claimed range for a battery without specifying what kind of vehicle it's in is pretty pointless. A Tesla X, a Nissan Leaf, and an electric bus won't get the same range out of an identical battery...
How many KWHr capacity? How many KW charge rate? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 10:03 · Score: 0

What's the point of posting this article if it doesn't give any useful data?
Who cares? by DogDudeIsCool · 2017-01-09 10:11 · Score: 0

I mean this literally... other than battery salespeople, who cares? Every decade or two, when it's time to get a new battery, I go to the battery store, and I buy something that they have in stock, within my budget. I couldn't care if it was lithium-ion, nickel cadmium, or FairyDust powered. A battery is a battery is a battery.
1. Re:Who cares? by EndlessNameless · 2017-01-09 10:47 · Score: 1
  
  If you do road trips, commercial passengers, or commercial hauling, then fast-charging batteries can easily be a make-or-break feature for you.
  I doubt most users will care about the battery chemistry, but its capacity, durability, and recharge rate are all primary features in the context of an electric vehicle.
  
  A battery is a battery is a battery.
  Different batteries prefer different volts/amps for recharging.
  For cars, this becomes more of a factor since the new batteries have to play nicely with whatever charging module is built in. I seriously doubt any manufacturer is going to implement a charge/discharge standard internally. Right now, they can't even agree on a standard for the external charging connector.
  So the market for replacement EV batteries will be needlessly complicated for the foreseeable future.
  Personally, I don't care about the underlying chemistry as long as it works as advertised. But I doubt aftermarket batteries will deviate significantly from the OEM packs until there are standards in place.
  
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2. Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:07 · Score: 0
  
  Well done, at least i get the reference :D this should be a thing!
meanwhile, LG and Panasonic can't keep up by swschrad · 2017-01-09 10:15 · Score: 1

can't keep up with demand, that is. they keep expanding and expanding their plants. and doing so here in the good ol' USA, at least for final assembly.

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Re:How many KWHr capacity? How many KW charge rate by ClickOnThis · 2017-01-09 10:21 · Score: 1

What's the point of posting this article if it doesn't give any useful data?
The headline mentions a 300-mile typical range on a 20-minute charge. Both of these numbers are related to kWh capacity and kW charge rate respectively. Arguably the former numbers are more consumer-friendly, albeit less precise because they relate to a "typical" EV use-case. So I would say the article does provide useful information, just not in the units or precision you're expecting.

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I call BS by frovingslosh · 2017-01-09 10:22 · Score: 1

I don't believe it is at all cheaper in the long run. And it certainly isn't cheaper if you plan on keeping the car long enough that you have to change out the batteries. Plus, in some states (like mine) there are taxes on the car based on its price, making the greenest cars even more expensive to own. I'm not even sure the green cars are even greener, I believe that if you consider production pollution that green cars may be dirtier (although admittedly I have not seen data that I can trust on this).

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1. Re: I call BS by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 10:48 · Score: 0
  
  There's also the fact that most the electric power generated still comes from fossil fuels or requires renewable energy collection methods that are created initially by fossil fuels. Converting energy storage mediums always causes lost energy though it's possible a commercial operation might be able to increase efficiency due to economies of scale.
  Until I see solid evidence compiled, pure electrical vehicles are still questionable regarding their lower environmental impact footprint as an argument to use one in my mind. Admittedly, I've been negligent on doing my own footwork digging around for reliable information sources on the subject matter.
2. Re: I call BS by Applehu+Akbar · 2017-01-09 11:24 · Score: 1
  
  Even if your electric car "runs on coal" in your area, that's still a substance we don't have to buy from people who hate us.
  Make all cars electric, and improving generation technology automatically gets through to the road. We can already do that for urban driving.
3. Re:I call BS by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 13:50 · Score: 0
  
  And it certainly isn't cheaper if you plan on keeping the car long enough that you have to change out the batteries.
  Really? It certainly isn't cheaper? Let's take a look at that claim.
  
  To replace the battery of a Nissan Leaf costs $5,500
  Depending on who you ask, Lithium Ion batteries last between 3 and 5 years. That averages to between $152 and $91 per month.
  
  Now I was burning $150 per month 5 years ago on a 20-mile one-way commute. So, no, it isn't certainly cheaper. It might be cheaper, but it isn't certainly cheaper.
4. Re: I call BS by beanpoppa · 2017-01-09 14:39 · Score: 1
  
  The well to wheels efficiency of a battery electric car is still better than that of an ICE car by a factor of about 2, so even if we started generating electricity from the gas that would have been used in the ICE cars we are replacing, we would be better off environmentally.
5. Re:I call BS by frovingslosh · 2017-01-09 14:43 · Score: 1
  
  You only considered one factor, a cost of replacement batteries (that might be true for Nissan but isn't the price in all cases), but you just ignored all of the other factors such as original higher price that the car costs, annual taxes, and that you still have to pay for the electricity that charges the car.
  
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6. Re: I call BS by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 15:19 · Score: 0
  
  Almost most no Leaf batteries need replacement in 3 to 5 years. Your assumption is invalid.
7. Re: I call BS by Curtman · 2017-01-09 18:25 · Score: 1
  
  Even if your electric car "runs on coal" in your area, that's still a substance we don't have to buy from people who hate us.
  Canadians? We don't hate you. We're shocked that you chose a reality star for president, and maybe a bit saddened by it. But it's not hatred.
  
  In 2015, four out of every 10 barrels of oil imported by the United States were from Canada
  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/canadian-crude-exports-to-us-hit-record-level/article29613525/
8. Re:I call BS by AaronW · 2017-01-09 18:38 · Score: 1
  
  It certainly is cheaper with modern batteries. With the Tesla model S people have already put over 100K miles on the car and they're seeing less than a 5% loss of range. I'm at about 50K miles in mine and have not noticed any reduction in range or performance. The batteries are rated for 3000 charge/discharge cycles which equates to well over 600,000 miles.
  Mechanically the system is far simpler than an ICE car. There are far fewer moving parts. The motor is lubricated for 12 years, instead of every 6 months and 5K miles. There is no transmission, no spark plugs, no belts, fuel pump/filter, etc, nor the huge myriad of other moving parts. There's no head gaskets to go, timing belts to slip, no piston rings, fuel injectors, catalytic converters, oxygen sensors, etc. There is a cooling system, though it is dealing with far less thermal stress than a gasoline engine.
  Another thing is that the cost of running the car is a lot cheaper. I pay $50-60/month for electricity (at $0.119/kwh and drive around 1000 miles/month, and this is a big car and I don't drive like a grandma either. None of my power comes from coal. Most comes from natural gas, nuclear, hydroelectric wind and solar and a bit of geothermal, plus I have solar on my roof. As time goes on the grid is getting cleaner, since it's actually cheaper now to install wind or natural gas compared to coal, which is growing more expensive as all the large seams are used up. Also as time goes on the electric grid gets cleaner as older plants are shut down and replaced with more efficient plants that burn more cleanly. In fact, today a lot more coal plants are being shut down than are being built. Natural gas is cheaper and produces half the CO2 and a fraction of the other nasty stuff coal plants have to deal with and wind is now cheaper still in many places.
  This chart from here shows how things are changing. Notice the very rapid shift in recent years.
  My previous car was a Prius. It's still going on after 10 years with the original NiMh battery pack, and the Prius cycles the batteries a lot more than my Tesla does. In the almost 4 years since I've bought my car they've improved the power density, reliability, performance and reduced the cost quite a bit. My P85 is now available as a P100D (100KWh in the same form-factor as the 85KWh battery in my car). The electric motor has no brushes to wear out nor even any rare-earth magnets to worry about, being an induction motor. Even the brakes get quite a bit less use than those on an ICE car since much of the braking power goes into recharging the battery.
  As far as regular maintenance the only things that need to be dealt with are:
  - changing cabin air filter
  - change wiper blades
  - check/change brake fluid
  - check/change brake pads (far less frequently)
  - change coolant (though far less frequently)
  - wheel alignment
  - rotate tires
  - replace tires
  All of these are similar to a gas car, though notice what's missing.
  - No engine air filter
  - No oil changes
  - No timing belt or any belts
  - Less brake maintenance
  - No power steering pump (electronic, though more gas cars are doing this now too)
  - No engine-driven AC compressor to start leaking (sealed electric compressors tend to last a lot longer)
  Notice I didn't say anything about the battery. The battery is under warranty for unlimited miles, 8 years, though I suspect it will last a lot longer than 8 years, and when it comes time to replace it, the cost keeps dropping, not increasing. EV car batteries are not the same as cell phone batteries and they're not treated like cell phone batteries. Cell phone batteries are optimized to be thin and as much capacity as possible, then when you charge your phone it usually charges it to 100%, which is very hard on the battery. EVs typically don't charge over 90%. While I can charge my car to 100%, it's very rare and typically I only charge to 70-80%.
  
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9. Re:I call BS by AaronW · 2017-01-09 18:47 · Score: 2
  
  The problem is that you chose the Nissan Leaf, which is probably the WORST EV out there due to poor battery management. There is no active battery cooling and they tend to cook themselves to death. Also, having a small battery like the Leaf means it will cycle a lot more for the same number of miles compared to cars with larger batteries. The cycling and heat is what kills them, plus charging them up to 100%. Also, Nissan made a poor choice when it came to their chemistry and hence their batteries did not hold up.
  Numerous Tesla Model S's have surpassed 100,000 miles and battery degradation is typically under 5% capacity loss and is generally not noticeable. They have since improved the batteries further so the newer batteries should last even longer. Tesla also has by far the lowest price per kwh for their batteries and it should drop by at least another 30% with their new factory coming online.
  
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10. Re: I call BS by Applehu+Akbar · 2017-01-10 01:02 · Score: 1
  
  "Canadians? We don't hate you. We're shocked that you chose a reality star for president, and maybe a bit saddened by it. But it's not hatred."
  It will be Trump who allows Canadian oil to be imported again. Betcha that uncancelling Obama's pipeline cancellations will be first on the list.
11. Re: I call BS by Ranbot · 2017-01-10 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  There's also the fact that most the electric power generated still comes from fossil fuels...
  A common argument with a kernel of truth, but it's more complicated that that. Mind you that any grid electricity generated by renewables is going to be a significant off-set to this assumption. (I'll get back to this)
  The other side of this efficiency. Standard car internal combustion engines only use 20%-30% of the gasoline's potential energy propels the car, and the rest of the energy is lost primarily to heat and secondarily to friction. Power plants, even the dirtiest of coal plants, are way more efficient creating electricity from a fossil fuel than the car's internal combustion engine is (power plant efficiency vary by plant and fuel source, but they are all higher than 30%). The electric car engine is 80-95% efficient at propelling a car with the losses mostly from friction. Now if any of the electric grid comes from renewables then that translates into better overall EV efficiency and "green factor" but exactly how efficient and green will vary depending on the grid sources where you live. In the US, the portion of electric grid power generated by fossil fuel sources varies significantly by state. Here's a nice breakdown of each US state's electric grid sources. http://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/...
  (Relatedly, notice that renewables are increasing mostly across the board, and/or coal is being replaced with more efficient and lower emission natural gas.)
  
  ...or requires renewable energy collection methods that are created initially by fossil fuels.
  Criticising renewables for being created initially by fossil fuels isn't really fair because fossil fuels play a role in creating pretty much everything, whether it's renewable or not. The point is to use the fossil fuels to create something that adds more long time value and efficiency to our lives than simply burning more fossil fuels to spin a turbine.
12. Re:I call BS by Ranbot · 2017-01-10 06:19 · Score: 1
  
  Lithium ion car battery life is more like 8-12+ years, not 3-5 years so you need to change your calculations there. If you have a Nissan Leaf their battery warranty is 8 years, so a replacement within that period costs the owner nothing. You also did not factor in that typical maintenance costs for EVs are much less than ICE cars. Many items that wear out are not even present in EVs... transmissions, fuel pump, engine air intake, starter, engine alternator, drive belts, exhaust system (no yearly emissions test either), and EV engine oil is self-contained and doesn't need replacing for ~10 years. There's not much maintenance besides tires, topping off windshield washer fluid, and replacing brakes pads, although the regenerative braking systems extend brake pad life by years. Over the life of the car all those little maintenance items in addition to fuel savings add up.
13. Re:I call BS by Barsteward · 2017-01-10 21:42 · Score: 1
  
  Your whole post is useless without any facts, making up stuff from your imagination doesn't work. have you considered just how dirty and destructive it is to get fossil fuel out of the ground and process it and then burn it?
  
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14. Re: I call BS by Barsteward · 2017-01-10 21:44 · Score: 1
  
  "Admittedly, I've been negligent on doing my own footwork digging around for reliable information sources on the subject matter."
  perhaps you should do some research before making such statements, personal opinion based on nothing isn't really helpful at all
  
  --
  "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
"First crop of autonomous cars" by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 10:24 · Score: 0

Don't you mean "the first crop of rolling coffins" or "the first crop of mass-murdering machines"?
1. Re:"First crop of autonomous cars" by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 10:46 · Score: 0
  
  Why would anyone mean that? Other than the obvious reasons of inbreeding and fetal alcohol syndrome?
Tesla Currently by Thelasko · 2017-01-09 10:28 · Score: 4, Informative

Tesla's superchargers currently manage to provide around 170 miles of range on a half-hour charge, so Samsung's planned tech could approximately double that.
Sure, this technology will beat Tesla's current capability, but it won't be available until 2021. Does Samsung think Tesla won't make improvements by then? They are already quietly increasing the capability of their charging stations, and rolling out new batteries using production tooling.

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1. Re:Tesla Currently by coofercat · 2017-01-10 03:29 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I saw that too. Samsumg *may* have something twice as good as Tesla do today, but in 5 years time. Tesla *will* have something better than they do today in 5 years time. Tesla's will also have actual usage facts.
  I think Samsung either need to do something useful for today, or else start aiming a bit higher. Twice as good as today in 5 years isn't going to be particularly compelling by the time they try to sell it.
2. Re:Tesla Currently by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 06:50 · Score: 0
  
  Samsung should give up. We should use government funds to support Tesla as the one true manufacturer. Competition is wasted effort.
Umbrella for the parade by Ungrounded+Lightning · 2017-01-09 10:35 · Score: 5, Informative

Charging that in 20 minutes will be around 300Kw, 300V and 1000A or 1000V at 300A or some variation thereof.
Any way you look at it the cable and connectors will be ridiculous.
Hardly.
Take 2000V 150A, for instance. 1/0 or 2/0 welding cable, insulated to that voltage, would be well within the current electrical code. The stiffness of such a two-wire bundle would compare favorably to a gas-pump hose - especially in states (like CA) where the hose includes a vapor recovery passage.
Most wiring these days is insulated to 600V by default because it's hard to make insulation any thinner without making it fragile. 2000V is not difficult at all.
You could even include a coaxial "shield" that would detect any failures in the inner cable's insulation, along with signal-level switch wiring that would detect whether the plug was fully inserted into a matching connector, to prevent the enabling of significant current unless the system is safe.
A gasoline pump, running at 10 GPM, is feeding your car about 22 megawatts of fuel heat-equivalent. What's such a big deal about feeding it a mere 300 kilowatts, nearly 2 orders of magnitude less, as electricity rather than liquid fuel?

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1. Re: Umbrella for the parade by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:03 · Score: 0
  
  Tesla superchargers now use a liquid cooled cable that allows them to use smaller conductors. There's probably quite a bit of room there.
2. Re:Umbrella for the parade by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:06 · Score: 1
  
  Charging that in 20 minutes will be around 300Kw, 300V and 1000A or 1000V at 300A or some variation thereof.
  Any way you look at it the cable and connectors will be ridiculous.
  Hardly.
  Take 2000V 150A, for instance. 1/0 or 2/0 welding cable, insulated to that voltage, would be well within the current electrical code. The stiffness of such a two-wire bundle would compare favorably to a gas-pump hose - especially in states (like CA) where the hose includes a vapor recovery passage.
  Most wiring these days is insulated to 600V by default because it's hard to make insulation any thinner without making it fragile. 2000V is not difficult at all.
  You could even include a coaxial "shield" that would detect any failures in the inner cable's insulation, along with signal-level switch wiring that would detect whether the plug was fully inserted into a matching connector, to prevent the enabling of significant current unless the system is safe.
  A gasoline pump, running at 10 GPM, is feeding your car about 22 megawatts of fuel heat-equivalent. What's such a big deal about feeding it a mere 300 kilowatts, nearly 2 orders of magnitude less, as electricity rather than liquid fuel?
  I agree with what you're saying right up until the end, the issue is you can't compare the stored energy in gas (22 megawatts - I am not checking this) with a 150A at 2000V power supply the electricity is clearly more dangerous. If you spill a bit of gas as long as nothing is actively burning you just walk away and get something to clean it up, if you spill it on yourself you wash your hands. If you are grounded and put 150 amps into your arm you could have some serious issues. I mean if you want to just randomly compare energies why not be just as worried that the cell phone in you pocket is going to undergo fission and go thermonuclear.
3. Re:Umbrella for the parade by beanpoppa · 2017-01-09 14:46 · Score: 2
  
  I mean if you want to just randomly compare energies why not be just as worried that the cell phone in you pocket is going to undergo fission and go thermonuclear.
  Don't give Samsung any ideas for the Note 8.
4. Re:Umbrella for the parade by Ungrounded+Lightning · 2017-01-09 18:19 · Score: 1
  
  ... the issue is you can't compare the stored energy in gas ... with a 150A at 2000V power supply ... If you spill a bit of gas as long as nothing is actively burning you just walk away and get something to clean it up, ...
  But if it happens to ignite you can find yourself dancing in a heat source that exceeds the 22 megawatt level. For a short time, anyhow. B-b
  If you are grounded and put 150 amps into your arm you could have some serious issues.
  If you put 10 miliamps (i.e. one one-hundredth of ONE amp) up your left arm, or 30 ma between two contact points on your chest, or even a few microamps directly into the blood or inner tissues, you could have some serious issues as well. Like ventricular fibrilation. If there isn't a defibrilator handy right away, you're gone.
  Available currents above that level are meaningless - all that matters is that the necessary tiny bit of current is delivered (while a larger current, big enough to cause the whole heart to contract simultaneously, is not). High voltage is an issue, but only because it is more capable of breaking down the insulating layers of the skin to drive the necessary current into a path that includes the heart.
  Which is why I described a system that would keep the output power off until the exposed terminals are safely embedded in the car's receptacle, and shut down and crowbar the power supply output of the "pump" in time to protect a human body from electroshock if the insulation fails. Sort of the 300 kilowatt DC equivalent of a GFCI outlet, or a "bus differential" breaker control in an electrical substation (which actually has a chance of saving a lineman who accidentally hits a bus conductor with a metal ladder).
  If you're not talking about direct contact between a body and the electrical supply, you're down two two other mechanisms: Arc flash and heating from wiring faults.
  Heating from wiring faults is very comparable to heating from flame, and the relative power levels of the two sources is an apt comparison. In this case the higher power of the gasoline case, plus its ability to accumulate and burn at a rate only loosely related to the pumping rate, makes it far more of an issue than an electrical fault (which would also, no doubt, be quenched in milliseconds).
  Arc flash does damage by light - ultraviolet, visible, and infrared, largely through heating - and by impact from vaporized material. This is comparable to the infrared from a flame and the flash and impact of debris from an explosive ignition. Again the relative available energy is germane to comparing the damage potential from the mechanisms.
  
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5. Re:Umbrella for the parade by AaronW · 2017-01-09 19:01 · Score: 1
  
  There are a lot of safety systems in these charging systems where they monitor the temperature of the connectors, the voltage loss between the charger and the car (to detect bad connections) and probably GFCI as well. With my Tesla model S it always starts out slow and ramps up the current draw and monitors the voltage sag and other characteristics to shut down if it detects a problem. No high voltage flows until both the car and charger finish negotiating. If the cable is suddenly unplugged then the power is shut off. It is probably a lot safer than filling a gas car though I did see a case where a Tesla was charging when lightning hit it.. While the car certainly was unhappy I can imagine lightning striking a car filling with gasoline could be much worse.
  
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Yeah, right by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 10:35 · Score: 0

A battery does not have a range unless it is self propelled, you know, from escaping gases during the 20 seconds of contained explosion
I hear the acceleration will be... by hyades1 · 2017-01-09 10:37 · Score: 1

...explosive.
;-)

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Queueing Theory 101 by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 10:57 · Score: 0

Even with 20 minutes per charge, if many cars need charging, the wait could be several hours.
Charging stations will need to have multiple chargers (~40) running at the same time to handle the same traffic as a "normal" gas station without serious delays.
That's a lot of current.
1. Re:Queueing Theory 101 by shilly · 2017-01-10 01:14 · Score: 1
  
  Why on earth would you predict the same levels of traffic, though? People charge EVs at home and work. People don't fuel ICEs at home and work.
charging available only at power stations? by dAzED1 · 2017-01-09 11:01 · Score: 1

The Tesla supercharger uses 120kW to do 170, as TFA says, and this does 372. If we assume a similar power factor, that's ~328kW needed for this. Where the fark are they going to find a place to plug that in? Just for reference, that would be nearly 3k amps on a 110v plug
1. Re:charging available only at power stations? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 11:34 · Score: 0
  
  In Germany, most homes have three-phase power at 63A per phase, and that's 230V, so 230V*63A*3=43kW. If you can power 8 German homes, you can power a quick charger. On average, the US consumes much more electricity per capita than Germany, so I think you'll manage.
2. Re:charging available only at power stations? by MerlynEmrys67 · 2017-01-09 12:23 · Score: 1
  
  Just plant it next to your brand spanking new Nuke reactor to power this. Looking on the web, the most powerful Nuclear site contains 3 reactors generating 3,937 MW of power... Quickly divide this by 328KW leaves us with abut 12K cars super charging at once.
  If you have 3500 acres to spare you could go with Solar. The largest solar plant produces 400 MW, dividing by 328kW leaves us with a little over 1000 cars during a sunny day.
  YMMV
  
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3. Re:charging available only at power stations? by Overzeetop · 2017-01-10 00:54 · Score: 1
  
  To be fair, nobody really charges at 120V. Any decent charger is going to be off of a 240V single phase (for residential) and most commercial is going to have access to (at least) 480V/3phase or three 277V phase-to-ground legs (which is what many commercial fluor ballasts run, iirc). And that presumes that they even bother transforming down from the 7.2kV main before distributing to the DC. Now, I haven't the faintest idea what state of the art is for high amperage AC-DC conversion, but just looking at building systems that's the equivalent of probably 10,000SF of restaurant/retail or 20,000 SF of office building. If local energy storage becomes a "thing" and allows buffering of the power, you could probably service 8 charging stations from a service the size of a 4 - restaurant outparcel (Darden-chain size buildings). Not insignificant, but not out of the realm of possibility.
  
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4. Re:charging available only at power stations? by dAzED1 · 2017-01-10 04:57 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not sure what the "to be fair" bit about 120v is; I stated I only put that there as a reference. The kW is what it is, and it's a *lot*.
When does it explode? by OneHundredAndTen · 2017-01-09 11:06 · Score: 1

It is a Samsung product - it's bound to explode, at some point.
Electric Cars Were Better by cstacy · 2017-01-09 11:09 · Score: 1

It was better when you could swap out the battery, but now you have to keep a charger handy.
Plus is spies on you all the time!
1. Re:Electric Cars Were Better by Overzeetop · 2017-01-10 01:05 · Score: 1
  
  Not sure when "you" could swap out 1200 pound battery in under 20 minutes from the bottom of a vehicle. Maybe a dozen 20# deep cycles in your trunk. Heck, even if it were accessible, 15 seconds to detach/undock and move a module to a shelf, and the same to move one back and latch into place means you can only move 40 batteries in 20 minutes. So for a Tesla S, that's 30# per battery. The average user (not you - I'm sure you're buff like Chris Helmsworth) is going to be exhaused from something like that.
  
  --
  Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
2. Re:Electric Cars Were Better by liquiddark · 2017-01-10 02:31 · Score: 1
  
  Guessing they're referring to this.
Samsung batteries have internal combustion, too. by Brannon · 2017-01-09 11:18 · Score: 1

problem solved.
Same problem refueling my gas car at home... by Brannon · 2017-01-09 11:36 · Score: 2

Like everyone, I want to be able to refuel my gas car at home in 5 minutes. The only possible solution to this is for somebody to build pipes from an oil refinery to my home so that I can refuel my car every 5 minutes--all day, every day. That must be what they do with gas stations, right? a big fat pipe going all the way back to the refinery?
Hmmm, come to think of it, I swear I heard somewhere about gas stations actually just having big underground tanks that are periodically refilled. Then the tank only has to be big enough to service the needs of that station for a couple days...interesting.
Let me apply the same strategy to my home refilling station. I'll just have a home tank which covers a couple days worth of gas for my car, and then have that home tank periodically refilled. Hmmm.
But wait, what if there was some way to apply this same radical thinking to electric cars? That's super-crazy, but hear me out. I'll install a battery in my home that's sufficient to refill my EV, and then I'll charge that home battery low and slow from the grid (or *gasp* with solar power). Then I can quickly dump all this energy via fast-charging into my EV?
Yeah, I know, that's insane. Noone will ever do that. Instead we'll build a substation into every home in America--just like how we've built a giant network of gasoline pipes into every service station and home in America. That's definitely the simplest and cheapest solution that doesn't sound at all fucking retarded.
1. Re:Same problem refueling my gas car at home... by Bryan+Ischo · 2017-01-10 08:31 · Score: 1
  
  Despite your obvious pessimism about the market's ability to solve these problems, I'd be willing to bet quite a lot that if a home battery system like you describe were cheap enough and safe enough to do the job, it would absolutely be chosen in preference to a complex and costly substation based solution.
  In fact it sounds like a great idea, and I'm sure you're not the only person to have thought of it. Maybe that's part of why Tesla is pushing those home battery systems its selling?
Failure is not an option by rsilvergun · 2017-01-09 12:16 · Score: 1

it comes bundled with your Microsoft software.

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Get it down to 5 minutes by Lawrence_Bird · 2017-01-09 12:30 · Score: 1

and available at multiple street corners and every exit on the highway. 20 mins and low availability still does not get past range anxiety.
1. Re:Get it down to 5 minutes by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 14:37 · Score: 0
  
  With a range of several hundred miles, overnight charging at home is fine, and for a reasonable commute distance you would only have to charge once or twice a week - at home while you sleep. I drive a Chevy Volt with only 38 miles of EV range (I usually get closer to 50) and overnight charging works fine for me. When I was working (retired now) I had a 24 mile commute (12 miles each way) so usually arrived home at the end of the day with 20-25 miles left on the battery. I have never needed to use a charging station anywhere other than at home. Of course the big advantage of the Volt is it has a gasoline powered generator so if the battery runs down or I want to take a long trip, I just fill up the tank and go. But for 95% of my everyday driving I don't burn any gasoline. I carry 2-3 gallons in the tank and it lasts for months.
2. Re:Get it down to 5 minutes by Thelasko · 2017-01-10 03:30 · Score: 1
  
  and available at multiple street corners and every exit on the highway. 20 mins and low availability still does not get past range anxiety.
  The human body has requirements too. Most people don't want to drive more than four hours without a bite to eat and a bathroom. That should kill most of those 20 minutes.
  
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I'm 40 by rsilvergun · 2017-01-09 12:32 · Score: 1

and my family dies of heart attacks in their MID 60s. Those are odds I'll play. Especially at my income level and with a kid in college. As for the kid, well she's on her own after she graduates. It's all I can do to pay for the damn thing.

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Like to point out some things by hemanr · 2017-01-09 12:41 · Score: 0

1. EV Battery gets 310 miles is a completely unscientific way to say it. How it should be mentioned is - in 20 minutes it can take in certain KWHr of energy. How the KWHr of energy used by various EVs are up to them, that is like how different vehicles get different miles. In the cars which exist now, I think every KWHr gets 3 miles. So if you have to consider that kind of a range, 100KWHr has to be stored in the battery. Which means we have system to pump 300KW in 20 mins. with 440V systems, the amperage required for that is 680A. Think about the thickness of a cable we need Think about the charger electronics we need Maybe it might exist in industrial version, Would it be possible to have this as a consumer version? Forget about charging from home. So many questions to be answered.
That's a lot of amps by Solandri · 2017-01-09 13:34 · Score: 2

The most efficient EV (Hyundai Ioniq) uses about 25 kWh per 100 miles. 310 miles range is them 77.5 kWh.

77.5 kWh / 20 minutes = 232.5 kW, or enough to power about 200 homes
77.5 kWh / (480 Volts * 20 minutes) = 484.4 Amps

And that's assuming 100% charging efficiency (not factoring in heat losses during charging).
1. Re:That's a lot of amps by poilupoteux · 2017-01-09 14:35 · Score: 1
  
  We are talking plasma arc explosions and z-pinch implosions with this amount of current. Just joking. You need a stationary engineer licence to operate devices of this amperage in certain settings. Everybody in the country plugs in their car to go for a dump after lunch and you get a brown-out, no pun intended.
  
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  Silent Ben
Leaf with snow tires by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 15:11 · Score: 0

We slapped snow tires on our 2012 Nissan Leaf. It is a joy to drive in the Winter. The car warms itself up while connected to the wall, and most of the range returns in the spring.
That being said, my wife often does not run the defroster due to range anxiety. She gets very uncomfortable driving the car with less than 50 miles of charge, so our daughter drives it to school in the Winter.
So where can we get new battery tech by jago25_98 · 2017-01-09 19:15 · Score: 1

If I want to buy this... Or the battery tech from a tesla 400mile range car...
And out it in a DIY bike build....
What do I search for to find it for sale without getting a fake

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I got excited by SuperDre · 2017-01-09 21:21 · Score: 1

until I read, mass production will not start by 2021.. By then it should be much faster to charge and be able to go for a longer range.
Nearly a good argument by ishmaelflood · 2017-01-09 22:20 · Score: 2

That's quite a can of worms you've ripped the lid off. Superficially, yes, you are right.
But the reality is that ~half of electric power is generated from coal, not hydrocarbons. (as an aside In my opinion burning hydrocarbons in powerstations is dopey, oil and natural gas should be reserved for uses where their extraordinary energy density is most useful, basically aeroplanes and the like,)
The consequence of burning coal is that for many many many regions worldwide, an EV actually produces more CO2 than a similar sized diesel or petrol car.
Sorry about that.
Wait for it... by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-10 00:12 · Score: 0

Internal combustion engine. What? Too soon?
"planned tech" by ganv · 2017-01-10 03:49 · Score: 1

Don't you just love articles about "planned technology"!
My post was snark. by Brannon · 2017-01-10 10:58 · Score: 1

Anyone who thinks honestly about this problem for more than 30s will reach the obvious conclusion that we don't need 300KW going into each house (or even each super-charging station) to support fast charging, you just need to charge up a battery low & slow and then fast-charge from that battery to the car. Basically the exact same thing we do with gasoline.
Yet every EV article leads to endless comments about how EVs are impractical because we (a) don't have 300KW going into every home, and (b) the grid can't support every EV in America fast-charging all at the same time. Yeah, well, we don't have gasoline pipes going into every gas station & home--and yet that still somehow works. And if everyone in the US wanted to fill up at the same time then the country would run out of gas in about 20 minutes.
Power supply by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-11 19:08 · Score: 0

An ev car travels about 100 miles per 25 kWh. So a 300 mile range car will have a 75 kwh battery and to charge this in 20 minutes or 1/3 hour requires a 3x75=225 kw power supply. This probably needs a 3 phase kilovolt power line. You won't have service in a typical house.