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US Antitrust Agency Sues Qualcomm Over Patent Licensing (reuters.com)

Qualcomm shares have plunged after the U.S. Federal Trade Commission filed a lawsuit against the company on Tuesday, accusing the company of using "anticompetitive" tactics to maintain its monopoly on a key semiconductor used in mobile phones. Reuters reports: The FTC, which works with the Justice Department to enforce antitrust law, said that San Diego-based Qualcomm used its dominant position as a supplier of certain phone chips to impose "onerous" supply and licensing terms on cellphone manufacturers and to weaken competitors. Qualcomm said in a statement that it would "vigorously contest" the complaint and denied FTC allegations that it threatened to withhold chips in order to collect unreasonable licensing fees. In its complaint, the FTC said the patents that Qualcomm sought to license are standard essential patents, which means that the industry uses them widely and they are supposed to be licensed on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms. The FTC complaint also accused Qualcomm of refusing to license some standard essential patents to rival chipmakers, and of entering into an exclusive deal with Apple Inc. The FTC asked the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California in San Jose to order Qualcomm to end these practices.

71 comments

  1. Re:Soon, the FTC will only handle spectrum licensi by zieroh · · Score: 2

    Ummmm... No, nevermind.

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  2. Re:Soon, the FTC will only handle spectrum licensi by amiga3D · · Score: 1

    Prophecy? I guess we'll see.

  3. The US can only do this by Phasing out CDMA. by Zombie+Ryushu · · Score: 1

    The US can only do this by Phasing out CDMA. CDMA is basically a weapon for carriers to lock handsets to carriers outside of paying off Phone users.

    1. Re:The US can only do this by Phasing out CDMA. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CDMA is on its well on its way out anyway. Everyone is moving or moved to LTE. The new way is to just lock them to particular freqs at the firmware level.

    2. Re:The US can only do this by Phasing out CDMA. by TheSync · · Score: 2

      Qualcomm holds patents in all kinds of things. In 5G, it holds Standards Essential Patents in the Radio Access Network (RAN), modulation & waveforms, and core networking.

      In RAN, centimetre wave (10GHz-30GHz) and millimetre wave (30GHz-300GHz) radio, beam steering or beamforming techniques, and massive MIMO IP are held by Nokia, Ericsson and Qualcomm.

      In modulation, 5G requires non-orthogonal transmission schemes, rather than the OFDM of LTE-Advanced. Some schemes under consideration include Filter-Bank Multi-Carrier (FBMC) transmission, Universal Filtered Multi-Carrier (UFMC) transmission and Generalised Frequency-Division Multiplexing (GFDM).

      In networking technologies, Network function virtualisation (NFV) and software defined networks (SDN), Inter-Node Coordination and backhaul, Access Link Integration, Self Organising Network (SON) technology, Context Aware Networking, Information Centric Networking, not to mention good old WiFi. Nokia, Qualcomm, Cisco, Intel and Ericsson are the top IP holders.

    3. Re:The US can only do this by Phasing out CDMA. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can literally go buy an iPhone today with no SIM and it's unlocked. Right on Apple's website.

      What in the fuck are you talking about?

    4. Re:The US can only do this by Phasing out CDMA. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The key is "Standards Essential".
      Does that not mean that they have to be offered under FRAND?
      How can they screw the bejesus out of one Maker and not the others?
      Oh wait, you have to figure in 'East Texas'. Yep it will work.

    5. Re:The US can only do this by Phasing out CDMA. by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      To be fair, he said "carriers", not handset makers.

      LTE isn't everywhere, no matter what the carrier marketing says. If you buy a Verizon phone, it has to be able to talk CDMA2000. If you buy AT&T / Sprint / T-mobile, it has to be able to talk GSM. Some handset manufacturers have gone dual-radio to get around this shit, in addition to the idea that a Verizon smartphone shouldn't be a useless lump in other countries not named the United States.

      We just saw in another story that AT&T is switching off their UMTS service that the original iPhone used - how long until CDMA goes away and Verizon can recycle that spectrum?

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  4. bought a fuckton of QCOM today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm going to make a mint off of the idiots who sold this shit.

    1. Re:bought a fuckton of QCOM today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's only down 4%. Hope you bought a shit ton of shares if you plan to "make a mint"

    2. Re:bought a fuckton of QCOM today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he means he's going to grow mint in his garden with the proceeds

  5. Industry should not allow patents in standards by El+Cubano · · Score: 1

    the FTC said the patents that Qualcomm sought to license are standard essential patents, which means that the industry uses them widely and they are supposed to be licensed on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms.

    I don't get this. Why do industry groups allow patented technologies in standards? Yes, I'm looking at you, IEEE.

    The way I look at it, if you patent something, industry should not give you the unfair advantage of codifying your particular patented technology or whatnot. Feel free to make a market for yourself and make it a defacto standard. However, if you want the endorsement of a reputable industry group, you should be required to offer an irrevocable royalty-free license to anyone wants to implement the standard. At least, that is how it would work in my perfect little world.

    1. Re:Industry should not allow patents in standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In order for standards to advance, you pretty much have to have new technology. Technology that was invented by someone, and probably patented by them. Now, IEEE probably encouraged RAND licensing, but if qualcom owns all of it, they get to decide whether or not to play.

    2. Re:Industry should not allow patents in standards by TheSync · · Score: 1

      The IEEE, like most SDOs do now, require RAND licensing of standards essential patents (SEPs). However the meaning of RAND has been changing over time (as companies discovered new ways to game the system, and SDOs responded).

    3. Re:Industry should not allow patents in standards by jonwil · · Score: 2

      The people who design the cellular standards are the same people who hold all the patents. Cellular standards are such a mess because everyone wants to get all their patents in the mix somewhere.

    4. Re:Industry should not allow patents in standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CDMA was at the time a big step forward over previous technologies. GSM had not yet reached the US. CDMA was pretty much the only game after old analog tech was swept away. Later came WCDMA with improvements and no lock-in to a single vendor.
      In retrospect it would have been better for CDMA to be regulated, like any TV or communications standard, but the golden rule rules.
      Unfair advantage is what every corporation is looking for. Why work, when extortion is so much easier?

    5. Re:Industry should not allow patents in standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as I understand it, you do in fact transfer the license/rights to the IEEE for anything they put out as a standard

    6. Re:Industry should not allow patents in standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree in principle, but how would you do that in practice?
      Say std. organization X decides "no patents in contributions to our standards, or they need to be licensed for free", then those that do contribute will be affected, but those that decide to stay on the sidelines can still patent everything in there. And you end up in a situation that those that do create products have zero patents and those that don't make products (e.g. trolls, but also companies that work on competing standards) can take the extortion money from those that make products.
      The current system is shitty as hell, especially in 3GPP, but with the legal systems we have in place for patents, you can't protect a standard from them., That is, unless you standard contains only old technology where all patents have already expired. And that's not going to be very good stuff.

    7. Re:Industry should not allow patents in standards by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Because if they don't, then they don't get a standard. Nobody is going to go through the R&D spend without some guarantee of licensing revenues.

      Standards bodies deal with this by requiring the patent holder to agree to Fair, Reasonable, And Non-Discriminatory licensing (FRAND) to get it included in the standard, or they can go pound it. Meaning, you get to charge $0.25 per radio, and everyone that makes a device based on that standard pays the same. Fair, Reasonable, and without discrimination. Not this bullshit where all manufacturers except that one who has patents we want access to, but those patents aren't included in any FRAND standard so we will try to fuck them into a cross-licensing agreement instead of the agreed upon FRAND price, like we've seen of late.

      In fact, that's probably what this FTC lawsuit is about!

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    8. Re:Industry should not allow patents in standards by jittles · · Score: 1

      the FTC said the patents that Qualcomm sought to license are standard essential patents, which means that the industry uses them widely and they are supposed to be licensed on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms.

      I don't get this. Why do industry groups allow patented technologies in standards? Yes, I'm looking at you, IEEE.

      The way I look at it, if you patent something, industry should not give you the unfair advantage of codifying your particular patented technology or whatnot. Feel free to make a market for yourself and make it a defacto standard. However, if you want the endorsement of a reputable industry group, you should be required to offer an irrevocable royalty-free license to anyone wants to implement the standard. At least, that is how it would work in my perfect little world.

      If they didn't allow the people who invented the technology to make money off the technology, they simply would not participate in the standards body and life would be chaos. Instead, they have every incentive to have their patents included because even with RAND they stand to make money off of every unit sold and not just units they sell directly. As long as they really keep the prices reasonable and non-discriminatory, then there is no problem. That seems to be the tricky part, though!

  6. Hurray! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Posting as AC and IANL, but Hurray! The Government finally got something right.

  7. Wait - we still have an antitrust agency? by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

    Wait - we still have an antitrust agency? I haven't heard much from it during the past few decades.

    "With only a few exceptions, current (Obama Administration) enforcement looks much like enforcement under the Bush Administration."
    https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/online/has-the-obama-justice-department-reinvigorated-antitrust-enforcement/

    1. Re:Wait - we still have an antitrust agency? by silentcoder · · Score: 2

      After microsoft got away with a wristslap after some of the worst antitrust offenses in half a century - the justice department kind of gave up. The US courts had too many free market fundamentalists who tried to legislate their belief that antitrust laws are evil from the bench.

      It wasn't always like that. Theodore Rooseveldt (a republican no less) was nicknamed "The Trustbuster" for his aggressive pursuit of antitrust cases - he went hard after them. He once ordered one of the richest men in America to the white house to formally inform him that the slightest breach will see the full might of the law. He made his position very clear: large trusts would be left alone only as long as they played by the rules, but break the antitrust rules and he would shut them the hell down. which was exactly what he did.

      A sign of a bygone age - when even republicans understood that you cannot allow the rich to just run roughshod over the population. Both Rooseveldts should be remembered for having very good economic policies and approaches - despite being in different parties. FDR was the one who finally ended the travesty of "Horse and Sparrow" economics which had extended the depression by a decade and is reputed to have said of it "It's a brilliantly honest description of the republicans who pursue their policy, as it outright admits that in their view, the poor are expected to literally eat shit" (similar statement were made by several commentators at the time, including some well-known standup comics of the era, so it's uncertain if FDR ever actually said it himself and if he did he was probably quoting one of them).

      Sadly, horse and sparrow economics just wouldn't die, and made it's comeback beginning with Nixon under a new moniker "Trickle down economics". Ironically nobody on the right will admit to believing in it. They point out that the phrase exists in no official policy statements or party platforms and the like... as if that means anything. Sure they don't practise something THEY call "Trickle down" - it's what leftists call the set of policies they practise, policies they most assuredly DO pursue. Unless their going to now start pretending that tax-cuts for the rich and austerity for everybody else is not a persistent republican policy (and the latest republican president-elect has taken that idea to a never-seen-before extreme). His taxplan makes the Bush taxcuts look miserly. Hey, who cares that these policies have NEVER had the predicted outcomes ANYWHERE in the world - have consistently made deficites worse, debts bigger and the people poorer, it MUST surely work THIS time, right ? If at fiftieth you don't succeed and all that...

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    2. Re:Wait - we still have an antitrust agency? by superwiz · · Score: 1

      You are probably right. The move is most likely motivated by politics than by any desire to do the right thing. An agency filing a suit 2 days before the head of the new boss comes in? That seems more like loosening the screws in all the chairs in the office. If Trump's FCC drops the suit, Democrats get to yell that he is favoring bad business practices. If he allows it to continue, Democrats get to roll their eyes claiming that the suit was filed under Obama and Trump is just trying to take credit.

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    3. Re:Wait - we still have an antitrust agency? by superwiz · · Score: 1

      FTC.. not FCC.

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    4. Re:Wait - we still have an antitrust agency? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Wait - we still have an antitrust agency? I haven't heard much from it during the past few decades.

      The entire FTC's budget for 2016 was only about $307 million. They only asked for $342 million for 2017.

      If they're going to be given more responsibility and actually exercise it effectively (which involves bringing, and winning or settling, suits against multibillion dollar conglomerates) I expect they'll need some more.

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  8. But the Qualcomm product is worth it by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The thing is, the Qualcomm product is demonstrably better than the competing options. It's not even close. As a user, I don't give a care if they strongarm Apple or Samsung or other companies and force them to pay more. What I want is the best performing phone I can get and I don't want excuses that some company opted for an alternative that stinks.

    We can see that right now with the intel chipset iPhones falling flat on their faces compared to the superior Qualcomm iPhones. There. THAT is why I want Qualcomm in my phones. They know this stuff better than anyone and it works and runs rings around even supposed experts like intel.

    Since I cannot just replace the chips and modems in my phone, I need this to all happen as the phones are designed and made and if it costs Apple or Samsung more, so what? Add a dollar to the price of the damn phone so I don't have to be stuck with a junk modem for years and years.

    Come on! PAY the premium! I for one would pay Qualcomm directly if I could. I can't. So it's up to the phone makers to do it for me. The FTC can stuff it. If they turn around and force Apple to offer iPhones with a Realtek chipset or some such junk, it's going to damage Apple and I promise I will sledgehammer such a phone rather than use it.

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    1. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow dude, I think you need to spend some time away from electronics of any kind.

    2. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > The thing is, the Qualcomm product is demonstrably better than the competing options. It's not even close. ... We can see that right now with the intel chipset iPhones falling flat on their faces compared to the superior Qualcomm iPhones.

      You ever think that maybe could be because of "Qualcomm us[ing] its dominant position as a supplier of certain phone chips to impose "onerous" supply and licensing terms on cellphone manufacturers and to weaken competitors." as well as "Qualcomm['s refusal] to license some standard essential patents to rival chipmakers[.]"?

      There was a time when you'd pretty much _never_ find an AMD chip in a machine from the Big PC Manufacturers. Not even when AMD (or other manufacturers) had _demonstrably_ superior silicon. And the only PCs with "off-brand" chips you _could_ find were _vastly_ inferior to the Intel versions. Why? Because (as was proven by FedGov) Intel used backroom deals and strong-arm tactics to engage in illegal, anticompetitive behavior which flat-out killed many CPU manufacturers and (for a very long time) kept the prices of CPUs really high, and their performance relatively low. Were it not for FedGov action, Intel would be the _only_ game in town, and you'd be paying $1000 today for a Pentium 3 equivalent.

      The term "Free Market" is commonly misunderstood to mean "A marketplace with no regulation". Adam Smith (and many others) recognized that for a market to be _truly_ free, (that is, its prices are set purely by competition on the behalf of sellers and information sharing on the behalf of purchasers, rather than artificial barriers to entry), economic rents _must_ be eliminated. Thus, regulation and government action that removes and prevents the formation of artificial monopolies is _absolutely necessary_ for the existence of a open and competitive market.

      Maybe you disagree with Smith. One only needs to look at the sorry state of Internet access in the densely populated urban areas of the US to see how artificial barriers to entry and anticompetitive action result in market stagnation and a poorer result for purchasers.

    3. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by nateman1352 · · Score: 2

      The thing is, the Qualcomm product is demonstrably better than the competing options...We can see that right now with the intel chipset iPhones falling flat on their faces compared to the superior Qualcomm iPhones.

      The Intel modems are inferior, but saying they fall flat on their face is a vast over exaggeration. I have a Zenfone 2 and my wife has a HTC 10. Her Snapdragon 820 is 2 years newer than the XMM 7262 in my phone. The 820 is LTE Cat 12, the 7262 Cat 6, we are both on T-Mobile LTE. I just did a speed test on each phone same place and time, mine got 52 Mb/s down, 27 Mb/s up. Hers gets 89 Mb/s down, 15 Mb/s up. Yeah the 2 years newer Qualcomm chip is better, but if you compare it with the XMM 7480 (same year as the 820) its Cat 9 downlink, Cat 13 uplink. I don't have a XMM 7480, but chances are its pretty close to the 820 and might even be better upload speed. Regardless, a 52 Mb/s connection to my cell phone is pretty damn good, I'm not going to use that bandwidth reading email on my phone.

      More importantly, it is imperative that Intel, Mediatek, etc. continue to invest in modems and challenge Qualcomm. Most of us remember the consequences of a tech monopoly and don't want it to happen again. I know its almost a sin on /. but I'm rooting for Intel to keep getting big design wins like the iPhone. There used to be a lot more players in the modem market... most of them have dropped out now. We need the retain the few that are left.

    4. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get a grip, fuckwad.

    5. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gee, you don't think that Qualcomm's unreasonable pricing and licensing structure might be the reason that handset manufacturers are accepting lesser options, do you?

      Maybe if they weren't being total dickbags and holding to the licensing terms that they agreed to, we wouldn't be plagued with shitty Infineon-come-Intel radios in premium handsets.

      Hint: this probably isn't about a dollar and cent price. It's probably more about "you get to use this, in exchange for licensing us your patented electron sauce that makes your product what it is". It's fucking extortion, and Qualcomm can go fuck off.

    6. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is more about Qualcomm abusing their market position to leverage their products. Apple wants to source multiple vendors for radios so they can stay out from underneath any one company's thumb.

      Qualcomm is so abusive with their SoC pricing (They demand a percentage cut of the final phone price) that google is looking to engineer their own chips just so they can distance the android brand from Qualcomm. (Also google wants to add features Qualcomm doesn't feel like developing) Apple and Samsung are big enough to design their own SoCs and enjoy both high profits and top tier status because of it.

    7. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      But patents, as such, are government-granted monopolies. It is a bit (just a bit) mind-boggling that the government would grant monopolies and then sue the inventors whose monopolies are successful. Ownership (of anything) is the right to deny use. It's the only bargaining power an owner has with those to whom he rents the right to use. If they should not try to profit from it, then what's the point of granting these ownership rights?

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    8. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > But patents, as such, are government-granted monopolies.

      True. However, they are time-limited monopolies that exist for the purposes of

      a) Encouraging the development of new tech by ensuring that inventors are permitted a (comparatively) brief period of time in which they can choose to reap all of the profits from that new tech

      and

      b) Ensuring that the details of new tech are not lost to time, and that the "Progress of the Arts and Sciences" is continually pushed forward.

      In exchange for this temporary monopoly, the inventor is required to disclose _all_ of the details of his invention to the public. After his monopoly period has expired, _anyone_ may freely make use of the invention, for _any_ purpose whatsoever. This includes improving upon that invention in order to create new and better things. (Let's both agree to not get side-tracked by the obscenely poor quality of most software patents. For the sake of this discussion, let's please just agree to ignore those abominations, 'k? :) )

      No one _has_ to make use of patent protection. Because of both the full disclosure requirement and the relatively limited monopoly period of patent protection, many companies choose to rely on Trade Secret protection, rather than patenting their tech. We geeks are probably aware of companies who require NDAs to work with their hardware or software. Those companies are almost certainly relying on trade secret protection. That protection lasts for as long as the inner workings of the company's widget can be kept a secret. This protection period is -theoretically- of indefinite length, but can be very costly and risky (What if someone who hasn't agreed to keep your secret reverse-engineers your widget? Now you've no protection!) to maintain.

      > It is a bit (just a bit) mind-boggling that the government would grant monopolies and then sue the inventors whose monopolies are successful.

      You're probably talking about FedGov's suit against Qualcomm for "Qualcomm['s refusal] to license some standard essential patents to rival chipmakers[.]".

      Here's the deal with that: Many, many high-tech standards _require_ use of the patented technology and methods of _many_ different companies. Pretty much all of the time, the holders of such Standards Essential Patents (SEPs) all agree to grant a license to all SEPs at Reasonable And Non Discriminatory (RAND) rates to _anyone_ and _everyone_ who wishes to make a standards-compliant widget. Because most non-trivial tech is very complex, this is _very_ common. Qualcomm entered into such an agreement, but then turned around and reneged on it in order to harm rival chipmakers and increase their profit margin.

      Had Qualcomm not entered into an agreement to license its SEPs at RAND rates, in exchange for the inclusion of its tech in widely-used telecom standards; had they simply kept their patents to themselves and forced the standards body to make due without Qualcomm's patented tech, FedGov would not have a case. But Qualcomm made a promise that it would license its tech to all qualified comers, had its tech embedded its deep into a critical standard as a direct result of that promise, and then reneged on that promise in order to fuck over many of its competitors and make obscene profits.

      This isn't FedGov suing an inventor because it has been successful. This is FedGov suing an inventor that has lied, cheated, and violated both contracts and trust in order to advance its own position at the expense of others and do serious damage to the market in the process.

    9. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Had Qualcomm not entered into an agreement to license its SEPs at RAND rates, in exchange for the inclusion of its tech in widely-used telecom standards; had they simply kept their patents to themselves and forced the standards body to make due without Qualcomm's patented tech, FedGov would not have a case.

      Is it common practice for FTC to sue to enforce contracts? Shouldn't the suit be brought by the parties which suffered because of the breach? Unless, FTC is a party to SEP agreement, then it should have not standing to sue for the breach. Even if it were a party, FTC would not be able to demonstrate damages to the FTC, so it would not have standing to sue. The only standing it can show in this case is as an entity entrusted with ensuring that monopoly power is not abused. But using government-granted limited-time monopolies for bargaining purposes is not an abuse of a monopoly. It is the intended purpose of patents.

      This is FedGov suing an inventor that has lied, cheated, and violated both contracts and trust in order to advance its own position at the expense of others and do serious damage to the market in the process.

      Wouldn't some of the parties damaged by the breach of trust have to show that the breach has occurred before a claim can be made that the marketplace as a whole was damaged?

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    10. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Is it common practice for FTC to sue to enforce contracts?

      No, the FTC's purpose is not to resolve run-of-the mill contract disputes. A significant part of the FTC's purpose is putting a stop to significantly damaging anticompetitive practices. Those practices may or may not involve violation of the terms of one or more contracts. The FTC was the first American Trust Busting organization, founded in the early 1900's.

      As to most of the rest of your first paragraph, read the FTC's court filing:
      https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/170117qualcomm_redacted_complaint.pdf
      The laws referenced in Section II on page four might be illuminating background information. Section V starting on Page 12 might be similarly illuminating (and significantly less dry) background information. :)

      > But using government-granted limited-time monopolies for bargaining purposes is not an abuse of a monopoly. It is the intended purpose of patents.

      Agreed. 100%. However, when the patent holder

      a) Agrees to license their patent to all comers in exchange for the inclusion of their patented invention in a widely-used standard
      b) Renegs on that agreement long after that standard has become widely relied upon, resulting in serious damage to their competitors and significant profit for the patent holder
      c) Cannot reasonably be convinced by the other parties to the agreement to uphold their end of their bargain

      then the FTC is called in to investigate the size of the harm and to see if it's just a run-of-the-mill breach of contract, or if it's some flavor of illegal anticompetitive behavior.

      > Wouldn't some of the parties damaged by the breach of trust have to show that the breach has occurred...

      They -uh- have? When Qualcomm refuses to license the tech that it promised to license under RAND rates to someone who comes and asks for a license to that tech, then the requesting party is damaged and (unless they've exclusively been doing deals in the back room) has clear documentation of that damage. Again, read the FTC's filing.

      Also, you might look around at what other countries' equivalent to the FTC have been determining in their own investigations of Qualcomm.

    11. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      They -uh- have?

      Not in court. My point remains that the parties which were purportedly damaged have a way to redress their grievances through court without FTC. And only the damaged parties have standing to ask for redress. FTC cannot claim damage to overall marketplace until after a court has ruled that there were some parties damaged through a breach of a contract.

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    12. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Let's be clear. Just because they agreed to accept payments by licensing under RAND does not mean they gave up their to determining how much is owed under RAND. And if some parties were to shortchange them, they would be within their rights to refuse licensing. And until those parties sued for breach and won, FTC has no business jumping to the conclusion that market-wide harm was caused. In fact, even if some parties won a claim of breach, FTC still would have shaky standing because IP ownership of patent holders is unquestionable and absolute while SEP participation is voluntary (and may or may not be argued to be revocable with no penalties other than the ones explicitly outlined when entering into the SEP agreement). Certainly the fact that the "harmed" parties already have means of redress makes the bar to prove that market place was harmed much higher.

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    13. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > My point remains that the parties which were purportedly damaged have a way to redress their grievances through court without FTC.

      That's true. It doesn't matter, though. The FTC is "empowered and directed to prevent persons, partnerships, or corporations ... from using unfair methods of competition in or affecting commerce and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce."

      See
      https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/45
      and the entire law at
      https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/chapter-2/subchapter-I

      > FTC cannot claim damage to overall marketplace until after a court has ruled that there were some parties damaged through a breach of a contract.

      Well
      a) That's not true.
      and
      b) Have you read their court filing? It seems to be a pretty thorough complaint. I'm willing to bet that the FTC has reasonably solid evidence to back up their complaint.

    14. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Certainly the fact that the "harmed" parties already have means of redress makes the bar to prove that market place was harmed much higher.

      Absolutely not. Consider -for example- the crime of manslaughter. The relatives of the slain can often press civil charges against the killer for his conduct. That fact has _absolutely no bearing_ on the criminal charges available to and evidentiary standards for The State's criminal case against the killer.

      > Just because they agreed to accept payments by licensing under RAND does not mean they gave up their to determining how much is owed under RAND.

      It actually _does_ mean that. If the terms aren't _actually_ Fair, Reasonable, And Non-Discriminatory, then they're in violation of their agreement.

      Read the FTC's filing. It's pretty clear that you haven't. Not only is the FTC's complaint present, but all the background information required to answer pretty much every one of these questions that you've been posing is also contained within. You should also read at least the first few sections of the law that establishes the FTC's mandate to understand what it can and cannot do.

    15. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Absolutely not. Consider -for example- the crime of manslaughter. The relatives of the slain can often press civil charges against the killer for his conduct. That fact has _absolutely no bearing_ on the criminal charges available to and evidentiary standards for The State's criminal case against the killer.

      That's an entirely different situation. In a case of man slaughter, the victim is dead (so he cannot seek relief). The state does not brings criminal charges to correct the wrong done to the relatives. It does it to correct the wrong done to the victim.

      It actually _does_ mean that.

      That would mean that by agreeing to a "reasonable compensation" they agree to not have any say in what is or isn't "reasonable." "Non-Discriminatory" is also difficult to parse because it has to mean like compensation in like situations. But every company's business model is different so it would be hard (although not impossible) to find 2 "like" situations.

      You should also read at least the first few sections of the law that establishes the FTC's mandate to understand what it can and cannot do.

      I am fairly sure this would be the 1st time that FTC brings monopoly abuse charges against someone trying to re-negotiate licensing of a granted patent.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    16. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > In a case of man slaughter, the victim is dead (so he cannot seek relief).

      But his family and heirs often _can_. Both the state and his family/heirs can bring charges against the lawbreaker for a single act. The fact that the immediately affected (the family/heirs) can seek relief in court for the slaying has absolutely no bearing on whether or not The State has separate charges that it can bring against the lawbreaker for the same act.

      It's common practice in US jurisdictions for a legal case to (where appropriate) continue on despite the death of the named defendant or plaintiff.

      https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_25

      There's no reason to think that one's heirs and family would be unable to seek legal relief for one's slaying. That's just absurd.

      > "Non-Discriminatory" is also difficult to parse because it has to mean like compensation in like situations. But every company's business model is different so it would be hard (although not impossible) to find 2 "like" situations. ...
      > I am fairly sure this would be the 1st time that FTC brings monopoly abuse charges against someone trying to re-negotiate licensing of a granted patent.

      a) If that's what was going on, you'd be right. But that's not what Qualcomm is doing.

      b) It's _far_ from the first time the FTC has brought antitrust violation charges against a company who violated their RAND licensing agreements.

      c) Read the FTC's complaint; it's only ~45 pages, and I linked to it above. You're just embarrassing yourself with your proclamations from ignorance.

    17. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      The fact that the immediately affected (the family/heirs) can seek relief in court for the slaying has absolutely no bearing on whether or not The State has separate charges that it can bring against the lawbreaker for the same act.

      These are different aggrieved parties. The state seeks justice for the slayed. The relatives seek relief for themselves (due to loss they themselves suffered as a result of losing a relative -- not on the aggrieved relative's behalf). Honestly, I can just help you out there. If you can demonstrate that fraud victims can both get justice in criminal court and redress in civil court, then that would be a far better example.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    18. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Read the FTC's complaint; it's only ~45 pages, and I linked to it above. You're just embarrassing yourself with your proclamations from ignorance.

      Section I (NATURE OF THE CASE), paragraph 4 (page 3):

      Qualcomm’s “no license-no chips” policy dramatically increases customers’ costs of challenging Qualcomm’s preferred license terms before a court or other neutral arbiter— including on the basis that those terms are non-FRAND—or to negotiate royalties in the shadow of such a challenge. This leaves Qualcomm’s customers in a markedly different position than they would be in a typical patent licensing negotiation. As a result, Qualcomm’s customers have accepted elevated royalties and other license terms that do not reflect an assessment of terms that a court or other neutral arbiter would determine to be fair and reasonable.

      This is clearly an indication that FTC is taking up itself to seek relief for harm resulting from violation of a contract -- not from violation of a statue.

      Section II.A (Jurisdiction), paragraph 12 (page 4):

      Qualcomm’s general business practices, and the unfair methods of competition alleged herein, are activities in or affecting “commerce” within the meaning of Section 4 of the FTC Act, 15 U.S.C. 44.

      Analysis (mine): this is absurd. They claim jurisdiction because violating a contract "affects" "commerce"? This gives them power to sue anyone whoever breached a contract for the purposes of renegotiating it for higher licensing fees. The fact that FRAND happens to be the contract in question (in this case) makes no difference. If they had this broad power, they would be able to sue anyone withdrawing from a deal in order ask for more money from the other parties in the deal. And the reason why FTC would be able to sue them is that withdrawing from a deal "affects commerce"? Bunk. Their powers are not that broad. Claiming that an action (adversely) "affects commerce" does not justify claiming that the same action is monopoly "abuse". Even less so when the monopoly in question is a legally obtained patent. Their power to regulate monopoly abuse is limited to monopolies which are naturally occurring (utilities, other infrastructure pieces which become dominant in the marketplace through sheer market forces).

      It's _far_ from the first time the FTC has brought antitrust violation charges against a company who violated their RAND licensing agreements.

      Please, list 2 others (which were successfully litigated rather than brought up and dismissed).

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    19. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > They claim jurisdiction because violating a contract "affects" "commerce"?
      > [The FTC's] power to regulate monopoly abuse is limited to monopolies which are naturally occurring...

      Here's you embarrassing yourself again by proclaiming from ignorance.

      Did you even read USC Title 15, Chapter 2, Subchapter 1, which I linked to (and quoted a part of) above? Here, lemmy repeat what I said upthread:

      The FTC is "empowered and directed to prevent persons, partnerships, or corporations ... from using unfair methods of competition in or affecting commerce and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce."

      That's Federal law. You might not like it, but that's the law. What's more, that has been the law for right around a hundred years.

      > Analysis (mine): this is absurd.

      This is you disagreeing with the FTC about what is and is not an anticompetitive business practice. I get the impression that you would present pretty much the same arguments against the case that broke up Standard Oil and other such companies, as well as most every time the FTC argues that a business practice is anticompetitive.

      Here's a really simple high-level description of a the anticompetitive practices that the FTC is empowered to stop:

      https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/anticompetitive-practices

      You can describe _many_ actions the FTC takes to curb an anticompetitive practice as "clearly an indication that FTC is taking up itself to seek relief for harm resulting from violation of a contract ..." simply because so much business conduct is backed by contracts. The fact that such a description happens to be an applicable one has no bearing on the legality and validity of the action. _Most_ non-trivial things in this world can be described in more than one way.

      Again, read the law governing the FTC's conduct, and _thoroughly_ read the FTC's complaint against Qualcomm. Read some of the material referenced within that complaint, too. It's clear that you just skimmed the document to look for a paragraph that -when taken out of its context- appears to support your opinions. Actually _read_ the damn thing. It's only ~45 pages.

      > Please, list 2 others (which were successfully litigated rather than brought up and dismissed).

      A cursory check brings up FTC v. Google/Motorola Mobility and FTC v. Bosch/SPX .

      "Oh, but those cases ended in a Consent Decree, that's not successful litigation!" I hear you saying. Again, that's you speaking from ignorance. Look to FTC v. Rambus, Inc for an example of what it looks like when the FTC has a case dismissed.

      Please, please, please educate yourself.

    20. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > These are different aggrieved parties.

      As it is in the case where a company reneges on its FRAND licensing agreements in an anticompetitive manner.

      The companies that were party to that contract are aggrieved by the contract violation.

      The Citizens of the United States are aggrieved by the anticompetitive behavior.

      This really isn't difficult to understand, dude. Give the grinding wheel an hour's rest and educate yourself. :)

    21. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      . Give the grinding wheel an hour's rest.

      You flatter me. I couldn't possibly spend any of my time in hopes of making money as a stripper.

      This really isn't difficult to understand, dude.

      Nothing is. It's only time consuming. And at this point, I get the feeling that you are just trying to get me to do legal research for you.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    22. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      That's Federal law. You might not like it, but that's the law. What's more, that has been the law for right around a hundred years.

      So your contention is that "from using unfair methods of competition in or affecting commerce and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce" is to be interpreted literally for the purposes of inferring legislative intent of that phrase? If that were the case, why did we ever need RICO statutes? Certainly racketeering would have qualified as "unfair acts" "affecting commerce" if these words were taken in their broad plain-English interpretation. I am not gonna do case law research, but there is no way these were not narrowed down significantly by courts (or RICO, at least its civil penalties part, would have been simply unnecessary). And again, I am not about to do your case law research for you.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    23. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      "Oh, but those cases ended in a Consent Decree, that's not successful litigation!" I hear you saying. Again, that's you speaking from ignorance. Look to FTC v. Rambus, Inc for an example of what it looks like when the FTC has a case dismissed.

      And I would point out that when the government actually has a case (as it did in the case of Microsoft), it litigates it. And yet, you haven't shown a single case which the government successfully litigated and which also resulted from a government-granted monopoly. You argue that I may not like the, but that's the law. Well, I say to that if you don't like the fact that government is granting monopolies, then take it up with the legislature -- not with the courts. I don't actually mind the law. I just disagree with you how broadly it applies. And the fact that the FTC was sitting on this for years and only filed 2 days before the change of guard (as is the case with many other actions which the previous administration took) is a clear indication that the purpose of this action is to derail detract the current administration from its agenda more than it is to litigate this case in earnest.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    24. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I couldn't possibly spend any of my time in hopes of making money as a stripper.

      Grinding wheel. Used for sharpening axes and other blades. From the phrase "An axe to grind".

      > And the fact that the FTC was sitting on this for years and only filed 2 days before the change of guard (as is the case with many other actions which the previous administration took) is a clear indication that the purpose of this action is to derail detract the current administration from its agenda more than it is to litigate this case in earnest.

      *cough* Ooookaaaaaaaaay, buddy.

      > And I would point out that when the government actually has a case (as it did in the case of Microsoft), it litigates it.

      That's exactly what happened in the cases I mentioned. You simply don't know how the Justice System typically works. The _overwhelming_ majority of cases are settled. Litigation is _very_ expensive and _very_ time consuming.

      And -if you look closely-, you'll discover that United States v. Microsoft Corporation was settled (and part of that settlement was a Consent Decree)... just like those two cases I mentioned. :)

      http://news.microsoft.com/2001/11/02/microsoft-signs-consent-decree-with-u-s-government-to-settle-antitrust-case/

      > [W]hy did we ever need RICO statutes? ... I am not about to do your case law research for you.

      That's a pity. If you'd bother to read, you'd find out that

      "(1) “racketeering activity” means (A) any act or threat involving murder, kidnapping, gambling, arson, robbery, bribery, extortion, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act), which is chargeable under State law and punishable by imprisonment for more than one year; (B) any act which is indictable under any of the following provisions of title 18, United States Code: Section 201 (relating to bribery), section 224 (relating to sports bribery), sections 471, 472, and 473 (relating to counterfeiting), section 659 (relating to theft from interstate shipment)..."

      The Definitions section continues on and on for quite a while with quite a few activities. See

      https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1961

      The FTC's remit doesn't cover the bulk of the activities listed in that section, and doesn't authorize the penalties necessary to punish the bulk of those activities. While murder _could_ conceivably be seen as an "unfair method of competition", murder is a criminal matter, not a civil one.

      Because you appear to refuse to entertain the possibility that your arguments might be based on an incorrect understanding of the facts of the matters at hand and that your understanding is in need of correction, I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I do sincerely hope that the only people you influence are those who are firmly lodged in your echo chamber. I hope with equal sincerity that you will one day reverse your position in regards to your continuing education. Never stop learning, dude.

    25. Re:But the Qualcomm product is worth it by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Are you now contending that RICO's objective was to solely stop conspiracy criminal activity rather than breaking up organized-crime-as-a-business?

      As for this:

      *cough* Ooookaaaaaaaaay, buddy.

      They made a number of similar moves within their last week. So the shoe fits.

      Grinding wheel. Used for sharpening axes and other blades. From the phrase "An axe to grind".

      Yes, but "sharpen your mind" (as I assume you are suggesting) is not one of this phrase's common usages.

      And -if you look closely-, you'll discover that United States v. Microsoft Corporation was settled (and part of that settlement was a Consent Decree)... just like those two cases I mentioned. :)

      The government already had a verdict at that point. The settlement was a decision by Microsoft not to pursue appeals. So the litigation was, in fact, finished. You still haven't shown a case where FTC litigated until reaching a successful verdict a case in which monopoly abuse stemmed from renegotiating licensing fees (even if the original fees was established (F)RAND rates.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  9. Re:Soon, the FTC will only handle spectrum licensi by silentcoder · · Score: 1

    So ... you're predicting that Trump will take spectrum licensing from the only agency with any knowledge of what the word 'spectrum' means, the FCC - and give it to the FTC - whose role is to regulate trade, and take trade away from them to give to... somebody ?

    You know, I would not be at all surprised if you're right.

    --
    Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
  10. You must be a Qualcomm shill. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Or just a sheep, incapable of seeing beyond its nose.

    How's a monopoly situation, kept in place by artificial means (be it patents, be it law buying, be it other dirty collusion tricks) beneficial to any of us (except Qualcomm execs) in the mid-term?

  11. Monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Most of us remember the consequences of a tech monopoly

    100% agree

    > and don't want it to happen again.

    Uhhh... dude. "Would prefer it wasn't happening all over the place" might be more accurate. Or are you just alluding to the current situation in LTE modem chips?

  12. This is what the FTC is going after!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In its complaint, the FTC said the patents that Qualcomm sought to license are standard essential patents, which means that the industry uses them widely and they are supposed to be licensed on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms

    Really, FTC? I didn't even know that was a thing. There are so many monopolistic behaviors in the market in the USA today, and this is the one the FTC is going after? Regulatory capture. I can think of 3 ways off the top of my head that Google is more monopolistic than this (probably illegally).

  13. Re:Soon, the FTC will only handle spectrum licensi by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

    This is the stated intent of his pick to head the FCC. He truly believes the FCC should be disbanded and rolled into the FTC. I personally don't believe he'll be able to accomplish anything but figuratively assign the FCC underneath the FTC and remove a few political appointee positions (unlikely) but that's likely all he'll be able to do in the predicted short term of his presidency.

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  14. Quality of comments by Neuroelectronic · · Score: 1

    is a function of embedded actors in the industry...

    Lower quality communication and low signal to noise ratio makes reaching a consensus slower. You can defeat this roadblock by simply looking at the quality of the comments first instead of considering them. When there is clear disdain for the very act of communication, it becomes clear whats going on in the context of the event.

  15. Re:Soon, the FTC will only handle spectrum licensi by silentcoder · · Score: 1

    That wasn't what the media reports said. What it said was that he wants to limit the FCC to spectrum control, and move the other functions to the FTC. While I think that's a mistake, it's a very different thing and there can at least be an argument made for it (a stupid argument but an argument).

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    Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
  16. The Irony by PortHaven · · Score: 2

    Qualcomm has patents on actual products, technologies, and methods they have developed. The view of the Federal government is that they are in violation of anti-trust laws.

    Yet, Apple who had patents on flat rectangular device, gride arrangement of icons, etc. Gets billions of dollars for having absolutely zero technology infringed. Go figure....

    1. Re:The Irony by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      The real irony is that you still don't understand the difference between standards essential patents and design patents after all this time.

      If you lobby to include your tech patents into a global communications standard under the premise that those patents would be licensed under Fair, Reasonable, and Non-Discriminatory terms (which are conditions for inclusion in the standard), and then start asking for unfair, unreasonable, and highly discriminatory licensing terms from certain licensors, then you are a fuckhead company and there will be legal action.

      There are absolutely zero design patents that are "standards essential", so Apple can choose to license (or not) on any terms they want. And if these design patents are so damn hard to get around, why is it only Samsung that has been found guilty of violation? LG, HTC, Google, Motorola, etc. are all doing just fine.

      Get over it already. Samsung is a proven bad actor. Qualcomm may also be a bad actor - we'll have to wait to see on that one.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    2. Re:The Irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Who defines fair and reasonable?

      2. You're right, I don't understand how design patents could become a multi-billion dollar infraction. When many question whether they should even be enforceable at all. Espectially as form follows function.

  17. Free drivers as part of settlement deal?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A guy can dream can't he?

  18. Re:Soon, the FTC will only handle spectrum licensi by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

    It will be undone in 4 years, if not sooner.

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  19. Re:This Just In by superwiz · · Score: 1

    God dislikes injustice. And has a special place in hell for those who voted to put criminal Hillary Clinton in charge of a country based on the rule of law.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  20. Re:Soon, the FTC will only handle spectrum licensi by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    That wasn't what the media reports said. What it said was that he wants to limit the FCC to spectrum control, and move the other functions to the FTC.

    I've been advocating that for years - at least for the "Network Neutrality" issue.

    The problems that network neutrality is trying to address are mainly anticompetitive behavior and consumer fraud, where ISPs selectively degrade service either to extort additional fees or limit users who make heavy use of their contracted bandwidth (consumer fraud - giving less than what was advertised or what "internet service" commonly means) or give a competitive advantage to their own "value added" or "content provision" services, those of other divisions of a media conglomerate, or of partners, (anticompetitive "tying", vertical integration, and cartel formation).

    As the major federal-level consumer protection agency, charged with enforcing consumer fraud and antitrust law, the FTC is well qualified to handle this sort of thing. It also has a track record of doing so. Their antitrust actions, for instance, include the historic breakups of Standard Oil and AT&T, the opening of IBM's eased mainframe computers to peripheral built by other manufacturers, and the Windows Browser tie-in suit decision against Microsoft.

    Among the things you might see from a move of such regulation from FCC to FTC might be media conglomerates forced to divest themselves of ISPs, ISPs forbidden to sell preferential fast-lane service, and bans on cuting off or degrading the service of heavy users.

    After the way he was treated by the mainstream media - owned by these same conglomerates - I'd expect Trump's administration to be more than happy to penalize them by breaking up these conglomerates.
      - We get more network neutrality - by separating the ISPs from the media conglomerates that incentivize NON-neutrality.
      - The Trump administration gets to spank the media conglomerates that were completely in bed with the Democrats during the election - in the name (and actuality!) of consumer protection.

    Win-win B-)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  21. Re:Soon, the FTC will only handle spectrum licensi by silentcoder · · Score: 1

    I expect you are likely correct.

    --
    Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
  22. Re:Soon, the FTC will only handle spectrum licensi by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

    - We get more network neutrality - by separating the ISPs from the media conglomerates that incentivize NON-neutrality.

    I still have trouble getting my head around why that was ever considered an acceptable situation. It'd be like car companies owning specific roads, and if you were driving the right car, it'd be free, pedal to the metal driving with all gas supplied, but if you were a competitors car you'd pay tolls and be limited to walking speed.

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  23. Apple by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    Apple, is proven as one of the worst bad actors.