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Brazil Judge Rules Uber Drivers Are Employees, Deserve Benefits (reuters.com)
An anonymous reader shares a Reuters report: A Brazilian judge ruled that a driver using the Uber ride-hailing app is an employee of the San Francisco-based company and is entitled to workers' benefits, adding to the global debate over labor rights for drivers on the platform. Uber said on Tuesday it would appeal the decision by Judge Marcio Toledo Goncalves, who issued the ruling late Monday in a labor court in Minas Gerais state. Goncalves ordered Uber to pay one driver around 30,000 reais ($10,000) in compensation for overtime, night shifts, holidays and expenses such as gasoline, water and candy for passengers. The consequences for Uber, if the ruling is upheld, could be far greater if more drivers follow suit and if state and federal regulators and tax agencies start treating it, as the judge suggested, as a transportation company rather than a tech firm.
More likely they will pull out of any markets that dictate this. They can't remain profitable doing that.
But this seems clearly different.
There are certain expectations of an employee, like working a set number of hours per month, or performing a fixed amount of work.
An Uber "employee" can decide exactly how much work to do each month. They are completely in control. (as far as I understand it)
Also, no one told the guy to buy candy. I can buy all the candy I want and say it's for customers, but if I go to my boss to reimburse me, he will probably pay me back since he is a pretty good guy, but still. My point is that if I keep making random purchases with no prior agreement at some point he will tell me to stop it.
Someone comes up with an idea that's pretty good, is designed for people to work part time to pick up some cash, minimal regulations, etc. and it's a pretty good thing for everyone all around.
Then some loser decided to do it wrong, wants free shit and the government steps in an gives it to him.
Now an innovative company, built for part time workers, is turned into just another cab company with full time employees.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Many folks have a one or two track mind when it comes to the reasons why everything seems to be unraveling in America. You have one side saying (the right) “finally real change has come” and the other side saying (the left) “the end is happening”
I am emailing this to tell you that one side is correct. It is the left.
And it has nothing to do with American social policy or social policy. Rather it has everything to do with the New World Order’s United Nation. The great Trap for America.
PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY.
Many of us know about the elites but very few of us can separate what we know from what really is going on.
What I am about to tell you is the New World Orders plan to take down America and the WORLD will cheer.
Most people in America take sides. EITHER WITH THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT. If you are one of those individuals, no matter how sincere you may be, you have a closed mind.
How the Elites got into power in the first place was the ability to outthink nearly everyone on the planet.
Here we Go.
We will start with President Trump.
Even though we can confirm he is a man with good intentions this was all planned by the Elites.
They needed a man that was a nationalist in office in order to pull the trigger. Why?
For years we have had globalist puppets doing the bidding of the Elites. The two set up guys here are George W. Bush and Barack H. Obama.
George Bush got America into the Iraq war which reopened an interventionalist policy in the middle East and Obama continued that but morally conditioned the left and the right.
America entered into the war with Iraq without a real reason and this policy continued Into Syria, Libya etc.
The UN backed the war in Iraq but had “issues” (not really) with Syria and Libya.
This is very Important what I am about write, America backed rebels who wanted to topple a regime. That is very important to remember.
Remember what I have said above because we are going to change topics for a moment.
As you know America has been going through a period of protest. The folks on the right can see that these protests are absurd. The people on the left say these protests are necessary.
The protests are getting more and more violent and will continue to get more and more violent.
The left is in a losing battle. The lefts agenda has been shot down beyond repair. The right now has the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch and the Judicial Branch. It is over for the left in America. BUT This was the NWO's intention all along.
We have seen the true colors of the left. They indeed will fight and terrorize to prove a point.
The left in Congress says nothing about this neither does the Elite Controlled Media. Why?
They need Chaos. ORDER OUT OF CHAOS.
The media will continue to push this chaos agenda over the next few years until it is beyond control. You are already hearing talking heads push the message that America is divided and we no longer have order in America.
The left is fighting a losing battle, but it's a winning battle for the NWO. Here's the plan.
Trumps agenda indeed will be pushed through infuriating the left population yet great delight to the right. Taking the minds far away from the real agenda
The riots are going to get to the point where burning blocks or not only common but rather miniscule. You will see entire cities and towns burn. We already have been conditioned for that. Remember Travon? You will see the rioters begin to murder Conservatives in Large numbers going into homes etc. The left will fire the first shot.
This will force Trump to call for martial law to save the Republic.
Forcing the rioters to form gorilla groups officially starting a civil war.
The media will push the Narrative that “rebel militant groups” are just trying to stop Trumps hate. The rights hatred against Muslims, LGBT etc
The world Narrative o
What has really saddened me as of late is seeing how all these big entrenched companies can attack Uber by using the very unions that attacked them.
When people work for big companies they are often not unionized despite crazy conditions, overtime, out of pocket expenses, etc.... But when a small upstart app uses a phone to link together private transactions, suddenly *THEN* they are subject to all the crazy labor laws and rights.
I find this most disgusting as it shows these laws are more weapons than truly rights that we the people hold as workers. Whenever someone pisses off the entrenched cartels they will temporarily acknowledge our rights only if it bankrupts their enemies. These people making these rulings could care less about the actual people who drive for Uber.....
Yet Foxconn employees aren't really Apple employees they just subcontract out the construction of the Iphones.... Suicide after suicide from the working conditions means nothing. Amazing!
Have there been any notable cases in which it was ruled, in any court system, that Uber drivers were NOT employees and/or entitled to some level of benefits?
There is no XUL, only WebExtensions...
I'm pretty sure if you're employing people in different countries you have to abide by their labor laws. You can't just push American labor laws on other countries. Cost of doing business there uber. Want to be a global multi-national company? You have to pay to play.
Or maybe we should just all agree on some global labor standards but I bet you America wouldn't like that one bit.
We'll make great pets
from the summary:
"A Brazilian judge ruled that a driver using the Uber ride-hailing app is an employee of the San Francisco-based company and is entitled to workers' benefits, adding to the global debate over labor rights for drivers on the platform...."
Did anyone notice the contradiction? The submitter reports a Brazilian judge requiring that mandatory entitlements be given to Uber drivers, then within the same sentence instead refers to "workers rights".
Entitlements are the opposite rights. An entitlement is prohibition of liberty; If the Uber driver is entitled to receive X dollars in compensation then the driver can not choose to work for less. A right is a grant of liberty; If I have the right to free speech then I can choose what to say without restriction.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
...Uber shuts down operations in Brazil, and angry people take to the street blaming Uber for not wanting to serve the poor, oppressed people who can't afford a taxi. Meanwhile, unemployment goes up and former Uber drivers hit the unemployment and soup kitchen lines.
Beware the Law of Unintended Consequences... it'll bite you every single time.
Eu falo português.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
It merely shows HOW STUPID the system of corrupt government corporate interaction is, and how the government takes any thing it touches and makes cost 10x as much.
Most of my friends cannot afford a taxi. Most taxis I've ridden in are disgusting. Uber, they can afford. And the vehicles are usually pretty nice.
Nearly EVERY taxi driver is a private contractor. A company owns the cabs, and the licenses. They then lease these out to the cabbies to drive. No benefits. No W2.
Second, why are these laws ignored? I work for a company on a government contract. We have dictated to us: where we sit, what machine we use, and when we have to be there for work.
"Specifying "you may only use DeWalt tools on this contract" can be enough to have your contractors qualify as employees."
But they're not specifying that. They're specifying that you need to have your own tools. And that they need to be contractor grade. You can't show up to work with a Black and Decker drill from Walmart and a battery that lasts 20 minutes. Nothing wrong there.
***
Let's get to the real crux of the matter, W2. I think we need to eliminate the distinction of W2 and contractors. I think we need to eliminate company provided benefits. Shift the entire benefit industry to groups. Trade groups. Regional groups. Whatever.
But let's have honest accounting. No more should our employers pay half the Social Security Tax. We should receive that money, and then we should pay the entire tax. Cause frankly, contractors get abused and the government is never going to protect the individual on those abuses. So let's end that distinction.
The whole point is that taxis operate at excessive costs and poor quality precisely because of a playing field that is stupid.
Uber is playing on an entirely different field.
And if you don't want to play on it, you can go be a taxi driver.
It's completely ignorant to demand companies play on the "same playing field" when the whole point is to escape the existing one.
You're not an employee of Uber. You're a contractor. You set your own hours. If you don't like the terms, find another job.
If you like the terms of being a taxi driver better, be a taxi driver.
Work Safe Porn
Most contractors don't set prices. They can accept the price or move on. Can't turn down too many customers. Well guess what, you can't go too many days without coding and remain a contractor either. Can't drive whatever car they want. Nope...you need to have a tool that meets a modicum of professionalism. Yes, you're a contractor...but when you go to meetings you are required to dress appropriately...or you lose the privilege of being a contractor.
If I work as a contractor through a management company and turn down projects, they're going to start paying someone else who actually wants to do the work.
And if I don't have the proper tools for the jobs, I don't get the jobs.
A 2 door car is not sufficient because the passenger is trapped until the driver lets them out.
A beat up junker isn't sufficient because passengers expect a car that will make it to the destination.
There's a very huge difference between not being available during certain hours and selectively saying "nope" to passengers.
Work Safe Porn
If they're Uber employees. Create a benefits package for Brazil. It can be utterly crappy and include pretty much nothing but a auto insurance discount.
Then mandate all uber employees have to be available from 8am to 6pm.
How does it make any sense that Uber should pay a driver overtime pay when the driver is fully in charge of how many hours they work per day or week?
That makes no sense at all.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
While there are some Stockholm syndrome poor and middle class people who might balk, the majority of us WOULD like the health and safety regulations in place worldwide, mostly because it would be a barrier to the cost effectiveness of domestic firms outsourcing to foreign locations.
The linked article didn't say what the basis for the decision was. And it only applied to one driver. It does not say they had to reclassify all their drivers as employees.
Drivers may not be "independent contractors" in the same way that a programmer might be (for example, depending where you live, you might only have one ride share service you can work for), but they absolutely are not regular employees.
They have 100% control over schedules, and a very low bar to getting hired (for many places, it seems like you just download an app, fill out some info, get a rudimentary vehicle inspection and an automated background check and you are ready to start driving...no need to actually demonstrate that you are a friendly person or a skilled driver). Maybe there needs to be some new legal framework for these people, but it seems absurd that a company should have to pay perks and benefits to a person that they have no direct authority over. All uber can do is remove your access to the platform. They can't tell you "work this shift" or "work this neighborhood" or "we are busy, you need to stay on another hour"...
It is almost like if you said that ebay was responsible for paying benefits to powersellers...Sure, ebay is in a position to cut off their livelyhood by banning them from the platform, and sure, for some people there might be no alternative viable market to hawking their wares on ebay, but nobody would ever call a powerseller an ebay employee.
Bottles.
Uber's drivers are prohibited from subcontracting others to do multiple jobs for them at the same time, so uber is exerting too much control over them, causing the drivers to be employees.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
It's not being prided / getting miles for on call wait time / drive to call time / drive back to base after long ride time. Paper work / other admin time.
Also maybe big time drivers can bill for the oil change time / car cleaning time / etc.
uber leasing cars / cell phone costs / etc are also issues.
Uber push for control with them renting out the tools needed for the job is not a good thing to have with contractors or even employees. Even said that you can rent ours or use your own is iffy. Other "contractors" have been forced to rent stuff like fedex like with there scanners.
There was a time when benefits were optional or rare. Then price and wage controls were introduced and the only way employers could attract good talent was to offer them "benefits". Now they are mandatory. Things might be better if people got more money and chose their own health plan outside of work just like car insurance. (Along with being able to buy across state lines and tort reform but that's a story for another time.)
For those who can read Portuguese: Sentença.
It's pretty good.
The judge says that according to Brazilian Labor Law (CLT), employee is "any natural person who provides services on a regular basis to an employer, under his or her dependence and on a salary basis", so the elements to recognize the employment relationship are: natural person (i.e. not a company - legal person), personal relation, regular nature of the relationship, onerosity (I've never seen this word in English, in this context means that there is payment for something) and subordination.
1. The driver is a natural person.
2. On the personal relation the main points the judge makes are: 1. That Uber requires previous registering from the drivers. The drivers have to send several documents, not have criminal antecedents, etc and, at the time, the driver had to pass an interview to be approved by Uber. 2. That the driver cannot give his account to another person in any way (rent, cede). He can only share his car with other uber approved drivers. In this point Uber defense was that the users cannot chose the driver, so it was not a personal relationship. The judge dismisses this argument by pointing out that the personal relation in question is not between the driver and the user, but between uber and the driver, just like the user doesn't choose the cook in a restaurant, but the restaurant chooses the cooks that will work for it.
3. On onerosity, the defense argues that the driver is paying uber, and not the opposite. So it is Uber that is providing a service to the driver and being paid. The judge dismisses this argument by pointing out that it is untrue. The facts he pointed are: there are several promotions where the user doesn't pay for the ride, but Uber still pays the driver; There are "promotions" where Uber pays the driver to be available, even if there are not enough rides; and the most important that the users pay Uber, Uber receives the payment, removes it's percentage e retain the rest, passing them along to the drivers at the end of the week. That shows that Uber not only mediates the businesses between driver and passenger but the opposite, receives for every service realized and later pays the worker.
4. On the regularity of the services, the judge points that it is a complicated matter, points some theories and ends up with pointing out that: 1. this driver was working regularly; 2. that if drivers are not available for long periods of time they are excluded from the platform; 3. that one of the drivers received an email threatening being excluded from the platform if he didn't make any rides in the following week. With this he points out that the defendant demands frequency from the drivers. Then he points that the non-eventuality of the relationship was even more evident by the theory of the ends of an enterprise. He questions what are the ends of the defendant? Is it a technology company that only makes the interface between people or a modern passengers transportation company? Then he gets the definition of a transportation service... It goes on for a while, it's late here...
5. On subordination he says it's the most important in the employment relationship. He says it is the most complex to identify. So its very long and I'm sorry. He talks about how the drivers cannot chose prices, cannot refuse rides, cannot hand out personal cards (I didn't know that), etc. Then he talks about how the control over the employees occurs in a different way nowadays, fact that was included in Brazilian law in 2011 (electronic means of control and supervision are equivalent to personal control and supervision he quotes from the law). He points that the control is diluted between the users and the algorithm, and that drivers are punished for being under 4.7 stars, or automatically terminated if under 4.4 stars or committing severe infractions (like handing personal cards).
With this he decided that there is an employment relationship, it's probably going to be appealed.
Good night.
If you're not negotiating for your prices, then you're not much of a contractor: a person who produces results for a fee.
What you're describing is an employee, not a contractor. If your employer is setting conditions on what tools you may use to produce the results and a dress code, you're an employee.
Some countries have limits on working time, to stop employers abusing workers by paying them extremely low wages and then offering overtime to make it up. In other words, to stop exactly what Uber is doing.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
great loss for uber drivers and customers alike.
If you don't like conditions that Uber provides, don't freaking work for them!
To scale the sheer volumes of drivers to field the demand fares have during heavy events is not possible if everyone has to drive a black limousine and only work as a driver 30+/hours per week with bureaucratic registration regulatory license. Same thing goes for AirBnB and other gig / excess capacity platforms. So I respectfully disagree that ride share drivers should categorically be employees.
Analogy: Lots of beaches and pools have signs indicting swim at your own risk. Must all beaches provide life guards or disallow anyone to swim upon penalty of jail? Who's going to pay for the life guards? Why should skilled safe swimmers pay to subsidize risks of unwise, unskilled, or reckless people with poor swimming skills? The are community pools that do have full life guard staff, but it can not scale to all swim-able bodies of water.
If people want to hitchhike, and a platform makes it easier to match up parties - embrace it. That parties reputations are closely tracked and bad apples are proactively pruned, even better. Lyft pioneered it, Uber copied it, and now Waze/Google is joining the fray. If people want expensive, poor quality, unresponsive taxis and limousine service, well those business are still around and no one is stopping you from using those. But if you want affordable, demand based, agile transportation, or short stay guest rooms, or other sharing resources and you are a consenting adult who understands the term and conditions, let innovation ride and businesses evolve.
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