Slashdot Mirror


EU Moves To Bring In AI Laws, But Rejects Robot Tax Proposal (newatlas.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from New Atlas: The European Parliament has voted on a resolution to regulate the development of artificial intelligence and robotics across the European Union. Based on a raft of recommendations drafted in a report submitted in January to the legal affairs committee, the proposed rules include establishing ethical standards for the development of artificial intelligence, and introducing an insurance scheme to cover liability for accidents involving driverless cars. Not every element in the broad-ranging report was accepted by the Parliament though, with a recommendation to institute a "robot tax" roundly rejected. The robot tax proposal was designed to create a fund that manages the repercussions and retraining of workers made redundant through the increased deployment of industrial and service robots. But those in the robotics industry were supportive of the Parliamentary rejection, with the International Federation of Robotics suggesting to Reuters a robot tax would have been harmful to the burgeoning industry, stifling innovation and competitiveness. The European Parliament passed the resolution comfortably with 396 votes to 123, with 85 abstentions.

72 comments

  1. "Robot Tax"? by Pezbian · · Score: 1

    That's a new one. My first thought was "What if androids have to pay income taxes in the future?"

    --
    In a world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king--and the two-eyed man is a heretic.
    1. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Dunno how Europeans do it, but here in the US they will almost certainly be subject to property tax once human income tax dries up, if not sooner.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    2. Re:"Robot Tax"? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep Taxes?

      Hey, sounds fair to me. If they don't like it, they can move back to Mars.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:"Robot Tax"? by rmdingler · · Score: 2
      Income tax.The argument is, if robotic replacement of human workers becomes widespread, the income tax formerly paid by the human should be levied against the robotic worker, or basic government services might disappear.

      I assume a similar levy is presently paid by farm machinery.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    4. Re:"Robot Tax"? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The EU already is 'robotized' since decades.
      And unlike idiots in the USA no one is replacing a burger turner with a robot, or a waitress with a robot (automated food delievery system).
      No one would go into a restaurant where everything is automated. Then you can simply take some frozen food from your fridge an put it ino ta micro wave.
      There is no 'robots will take all over fear' in the EU, and no, we would not tax a company extra for using a robot. We tax companies on profit, and bottom line we tax owners/shareholders on shed out profit. Robots are no discussion thema at all in Europe. Basically everything that can be automated is so since decades ...

      The problem is education, not robots (in the US as well as in the EU).
      On the other hand, the EU will sooner or later shift to UBI anway, problem solved, facepalm.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    5. Re:"Robot Tax"? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      if robotic replacement of human workers becomes widespread, the income tax formerly paid by the human should be levied against the robotic worker

      The Socialist Party candidate for the President of France has acutally proposed to do this. Fortunately for the French, he is way behind in the polls and has a near zero chance of winning.

    6. Re:"Robot Tax"? by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      This guy has come out in favor of it, too.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    7. Re:"Robot Tax"? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      It's a dumb idea. How do you determine the tax on each individual robot? Better to have a manufacturer's excise tax - it's just a percentage of the invoice. We had this before we introduced the GST, and it was much easier to administer, in part because it didn't tax services (but since services consume manufactured goods, they contributed indirectly in direct proportion to their consumption of goods).

      Taxing robots will end up with too many loopholes and people trying to game the system.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    8. Re:"Robot Tax"? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      How do you determine the tax on each individual robot?

      It should be based on how many jobs are destroyed. For instance, if someone invented a "washing machine" that could wash clothes automatically instead of employing millions of laundresses to manually scrub those clothes on a washboard, then those machines should obviously be heavily taxed. The same for "dishwasher" machines that destroy the jobs of scullery maids. Or worst of all, if someone were to automate the job of "switchboard operator", by using some sort of computer to route phone calls, that would have a devastating effect on the economy.

    9. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "And unlike idiots in the USA no one is replacing a burger turner with a robot, or a waitress with a robot"
      I would ease up on calling Americans idiots if you actually believe anything you wrote. I eat out quite a lot and have never seen robots running any of the restaurants. Automated drink dispensers are not robots.

      The EU contribution to the AI age will be creating regulations while everyone else will be busy creating the AI age. And is there anything in Europe that is not regulated by the unelected EU bureaucrats? All governments are flawed in some manner but leave it to the Europeans to add an additional layer of government bureaucracy designed to control everything their country governments have not got around to controlling. And in case you have not noticed the EU is failing in everything they were supposed to accomplish when created. They particularly like shaking down any US corporation who has the temerity to be successful. Face it Europe slept through the computer and internet age so the only thing left to do extort money from those who were not a sleep at the wheel as the modern computer age took off.

    10. Re:"Robot Tax"? by jezwel · · Score: 1

      It should be simply the company owning the robot earns company income and pays company tax at the normal rate.
      If I buy a robot for my own use (autonomous car, au pair, cleaner, it already attracts a value add type tax, plus the company that manufactured the robot will pay company tax.

    11. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... employing millions of laundresses to manually scrub those clothes on a washboard ...

      There were new jobs created: Building the washing machines, delivering them, repairing them. Most important, only a few people depended solely on a washboard for their income, so the machine gave them time to perform other tasks at work. The laundress could serve more customers, meaning the cost of laundry dropped, bringing in more work and protecting her livelihood.

      Compare that to a robot: When it displaces 1 taxi driver, that driver cannot spend his time washing the car and changing the oil. Worse, there aren't new jobs; the robot does not need another person to write new algorithms for it. That is the loss of employment which the pro-robot people are lying about.

      We saw something similar when banks computerized; a few thousand workers became a couple dozen but we don't mention the upheaval caused by automation in the roaring 1950s that motivated most minorities to join the civil rights movement in the 1960s. It's also the main reason for high unemployment in the 1970s.

    12. Re:"Robot Tax"? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Remember Das Kapital? It was written around the time when the Industrial Revolution was constantly creating and destroying jobs. I'm still wondering when the next similar movement will show up. We already have anti-globalization movements, eventually we'll have those too.

    13. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We already have anti-globalization movements, eventually we'll have those too.

      Already? We've had it since the Portuguese put globalization train on it's tracks. In the last Western epopee, "Os Lusiadas", written by Portuguese Luis Camoes and published in 1572 he had a character known as "velho do Restelo" (the old man of Restelo) who personified all the doubters and naysayers about the voyages of discovery and the maritime enterprise (and all the wealth that it would bring). It was a character, sure, but personified arguments used by some at that time... so we've had anti-globalization movements since the very infancy of globalization.

    14. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And is there anything in Europe that is not regulated by the unelected EU bureaucrats?

      Pretty much everything. Guess you should follow your own advice and ease up.
      You do know that the Members of the European Parliament are elected by the citizens of each member state, right?
      And regarding the European Commission, although is not directly elected, it's members are appointed by the government of each member state (who themselves where elected into office), indirect democracy shouldn't be too hard a concept for you.

    15. Re:"Robot Tax"? by davester666 · · Score: 2

      Well, the people with the money don't really care about basic gov't services and definitely don't want to pay for them. They would MUCH rather just live in a separate area where they only pay for their own services (or even better, the gov't pays for them), and nobody else can use "their" stuff, like their roads, buildings, schools, hospitals.

      They are willing to pay for the 90% to go somewhere else and fight a war, as long as not very many of them come back.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    16. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And is there anything in Europe that is not regulated by the unelected EU bureaucrats?

      Pretty much everything. Guess you should follow your own advice and ease up.
      You do know that the Members of the European Parliament are elected by the citizens of each member state, right?
      And regarding the European Commission, although is not directly elected, it's members are appointed by the government of each member state (who themselves where elected into office), indirect democracy shouldn't be too hard a concept for you.

      I wonder on how many levels of indirections you can still calling it democracy because your concept stinks populist totalitariasm from miles away.

    17. Re: "Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That was actually proposed by the Italian Communist Party in the '90s: it was called "tax on technological innovation". It would heavily punish all those horrible technological pioneers who dared to come up with new things.

    18. Re: "Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indirect democracy is democracy in the sense watching porn is sex.

    19. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why basic government services cannot be taken over by robotic workers?

    20. Re: "Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean, like electing an electoral college who elects the president?

    21. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder on how many levels of indirections you can still calling it democracy because your concept stinks populist totalitariasm from miles away.

      Care to elaborate, or was it just a brain fart?

    22. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You apparently think that's wrong. Typical leftist envy politics.
      --
      roman_mir

    23. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do not know how the EU works. Look up the different bodies and the powers that they have.

      Me thinking I had just described exactly how the two legislative bodies work.. so, if you know better, care to explain how any other legislative body (you need to find it first) work and comes to be?

    24. Re:"Robot Tax"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could argue that the President of the European Commission wasn't legitimate for a couple of years (the Barroso Commission, and only that one), but everything else you're the clueless about it.
      The Barroso Commission (first one) was the only thing that wasn't legitime because the member states to nominate Barroso to the job they applied rules from a treaty that was rejected by the Netherlands and France in a referendum (the European Constitution), and those rules would only come to be ratified and entered into force in 2009 with the Lisbon Treaty (so from 2004 to 2009 Barroso had no legal ground on being the President of the European Commission, and was only possible because the member states allowed it).
      What you can't really argue is the direct election of the MEPs or the nomination of the commissioners by the elected governments of the member states.

  2. How many pages? by galabar · · Score: 1

    Hi many pages of regulations did this represent?

  3. On regulation of AI development by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

    I am no legislator, nor even a lawyer... but I think that any AI with the potential to harm humans should be requires to have sufficient safety features built into it to minimize the risk it presents to below that of a human performing the same tasks.

    That puts human safety over cost savings: if the AI isn't safe enough, you can't replace a human with it regardless of how much more cost effective it is.

    And that's pretty much the standard we see being used to judge driverless cars, not just because it's something you can measure and use to set insurance rates, but because it just makes sense.

    1. Re:On regulation of AI development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing that makes sense in driverless cars is for drivers to always maintain responsibility for their vehicle. "Failure to maintain control" is a pretty common charge in most jurisdictions. Self-driving cars are almost a get-out-of-jail free card for this law, when in fact they should be DOMINATED by it. The only time the driver should not be liable is when the car goes out of its way to discourage the driver from maintaining safe conditions, leading to an accident.

      As for AI regulation. Okay, how are we to know what is AI and what is just "mundane" software? Just start throwing Google patents at a wall and see what sticks? What about that recent opinion that many suggested would wholly invalidate all software patent law?

    2. Re:On regulation of AI development by galabar · · Score: 1

      What if the car doesn't have a steering wheel, pedals, or any other way to control it besides a voice command telling it where to go?

    3. Re:On regulation of AI development by galabar · · Score: 1
    4. Re:On regulation of AI development by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You don't buy it, duh.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:On regulation of AI development by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      A driverless car is not an AI.
      There are only very few very weak pieces in it that come from the 'weak AI' research topics like pattern recognition and route planning.
      There is no artificial mind in the center of the 'cars computer' thinking: 'I have to drive safe!' Or evil thinking: 'will they "kill me" if I deliberatly drive over this ugly fagg'?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:On regulation of AI development by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      You don't buy it, duh.

      What if you didn't buy it, but you are just paying $5 for a ride to work?

    7. Re:On regulation of AI development by Dagger2 · · Score: 1

      This is a sane position, but the problem isn't quite so simple as that. AI development is competitive: whoever builds the first super-intelligent AGI is probably going to win big time. Any team that bothers to spend time considering safety is likely to lose to teams that don't.

      I'm not entirely sure how we can avoid that. Even if you managed to pass global laws, how do you deal with people secretly breaking the law?

      (Of course there's a big difference between AGI and driverless cars; the latter is pretty easy to manage the risk of. But when people start throwing around phrases like "existential risk", they're not talking about the cars.)

    8. Re:On regulation of AI development by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Right. And it's not even that hard to test. Before you are allowed to put a driverless car on the market, you must demonstrate that a prototype can drive so many miles under a range of typical circumstances with a limited number of accidents.

    9. Re:On regulation of AI development by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      A driverless car is not an AI.

      That would depend on your definition of intelligence. First dictionary entry says: "the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.", which would apply to driving a car in traffic.

    10. Re:On regulation of AI development by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      No, it does not depend on my definition of intelligence.

      It depends on the definition of the term "artificial intelligence".

      "the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.", which would apply to driving a car in traffic.
      No it would not, a self driving car is not acquiring knowledge, and if it is "applying" knowledge is also very questionable, because if you consider "data" as knowledge then nearly everything is an AI.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    11. Re:On regulation of AI development by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      There are only very few very weak pieces in it that come from the 'weak AI' research topics like pattern recognition and route planning.

      That's what most people mean by "AI": running algorithms developed by AI researchers.

    12. Re:On regulation of AI development by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Before you are allowed to put a driverless car on the market, you must demonstrate that a prototype can drive so many miles under a range of typical circumstances with a limited number of accidents.

      More specifically, such a robocar should meet the same requirement that human drivers must meet:.
      That is, pass a standard driver's test in every state and province where it is licensed, day or night,
      and in every kind of weather that is likely to occur in that area.

    13. Re:On regulation of AI development by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, then the AI is in the camera but not in the computer doing the driving :) and we have another AI doing route planning :)

      But strictly speaking both are not AI and the whole system neither.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  4. Slavery all over again? by sgrover · · Score: 1

    Random thinking here. If one were to create/utilize AI scripts to provide a value for cash, is that not akin to owning one or more slaves for the same purpose? I haven't thought this through deeply, but I'm seeing some parallels. If that were the case, would taxing the "robots" help prevent a slaver type viewpoint?

    1. Re:Slavery all over again? by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      Well... anything you'd call a 'script' wouldn't be 'AI', and you don't have to worry much about if you're treating an AI ethically unless and until you make one that is self-aware.

      Of course if you've managed to make a self-aware AI, you probably also designed it to be happy doing whatever it is you built it for. Is it slavery if your AI wants to serve you even to the point of its own destruction, and in fact enjoys doing so?

    2. Re:Slavery all over again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An AI is no more a slave than a hammer, a car, or a cell phone. A draft horse or a dairy cow would be more akin to slaves than an AI would be. Unless you can prove that the AI is sentient, then you may have an argument for slavery.

      captcha: akimbo

    3. Re:Slavery all over again? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      A script can be as AI as a compiled binary. There is no difference.

      I guess crafting a self aware computer program is much more easy than making an AI.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    4. Re:Slavery all over again? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Are they going to define what an AI is? Everything involving a computer now is considered AI by many (not saying I do) - a CNC or an autonomous car (and yes, CNC machines use feedback). I did autonomous car research in college and a little while after and at the time it was control systems which uses a lot of math for pole placement for smooth steering or doing things like backing up a 3 trailer truck and acceleration for lateral (control) positioning.

    5. Re:Slavery all over again? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      If one were to create/utilize AI scripts to provide a value for cash, is that not akin to owning one or more slaves for the same purpose?

      If one were to eat tofu for dinner, is that not akin to consuming human flesh for the same purpose?

      I haven't thought this through deeply

      Indeed.

    6. Re:Slavery all over again? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      If one were to eat tofu for dinner, is that not akin to consuming human flesh for the same purpose?

      Robo-post detected. Humans don't eat tofu. At least not willingly. Please report for disassembly.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  5. A robot tax is mainly unworkable by OpenSourced · · Score: 1

    How do you calculate a tax rate for robots? Does a completely integrated robotic factory (in essence just a robot with thousands of actuators) pay the same tax than a kitchen aid? What about vehicles? If they are AI driven then it's a robot and must pay taxes? Will you have to pay taxes for your Roomba? What if the robot is controlled remotely by a powerful CPU? What if it's not a remote CPU but a cloud of processing power, and more power is used if the robot's decisions are harder to make? The list is endless.

    If a transport company fires all drivers and substitutes them by robotic vehicles, it will make a lot more profits (presumably), and so pay a lot more taxes (presumably). It's simpler and more efficient to tax these extra profits than any robot tax you could devise.

    --
    Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
    1. Re:A robot tax is mainly unworkable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She is not a robot, she is my companion!

  6. Robots should pay the top rate by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    And corporations should pay twice that

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  7. They don't know if they will continue to exist yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ......but they already plan to legislate on something that doesn't exist yet :-)

  8. Androids may not dream of electric sheep... by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    ...but that won't stop them from being fleeced!

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  9. Ha, ha. Robot tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not with this right wing Parliament, which is just Bigcorp's doormat. Disgusting.

  10. Successful European Technology Companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Meanwhile, in Brussels: "I don't understand why all the successful technology companies are American? Maybe we need more regulations to help European technology companies succeed. I hear AI is taking off, so lets create some regulations for that. That's sure the make Europe a leader in AI"

    1. Re:Successful European Technology Companies by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      What? You mean like ARM and SAP? Those American companies?

  11. That's not how property tax works in the States by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    Property tax is used to fund schools, primarily so that well to do neighborhoods don't have to fund schools in poor neighborhoods. It also serves to keep lower income people out of higher income areas by adding an additional financial burden to home ownership.

    One thing it is _not_ used for is to control wealth inequality in the way your suggesting. We used to use high marginal tax rates (90% on amounts over $12 million/year if you adjust for inflation) combined with heavy corporate and business taxes to discourage folks from hiding wealth in companies. Regan started tearing that down and Clinton finished the job.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:That's not how property tax works in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is tax revenue really that highly earmarked in the state or federal budgets in the US? Wouldn't that lead to budgetary inflexibility and slow down reaction times on urgent issues?

  12. Your 'droids! We don't serve their kind here. by mmell · · Score: 1
    Like John Quincy Adding-machine promised not to kill all humans.

    Sadly, another campaign promise he was unable to keep!

  13. Same way you do income tax by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    require companies to attribute profits to robots and go from there.

    I suppose there are other schemes, but the appeal of a Robot tax is not in how easy it is to implement. It's in the phrase "Robot Tax". It's simple, it makes sense and it solves one of the age old problems of socialism: labeling taxation theft. You're not taxing the man, your taxing his robots.

    It's silly. We should just recognize that all human beings are due a good life and work towards that end but well, humans are greedy, dumb and easily manipulable. What's that old quote? A person is smart, People are dumb.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Same way you do income tax by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      We should just recognize that all human beings are due a good life

      - due by who? Who owes them a 'good life'?

    2. Re:Same way you do income tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same guy who owes multi-billionaires an extravagant lifestyle.

    3. Re:Same way you do income tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mark questions as trolling when I don't have an answer, but don't like the question.

    4. Re:Same way you do income tax by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      Who is that? If you have money, you buy a lavish life style.

  14. Non binding by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    This is yet another non binding resolution, by this fake parliament that has too much time to spend considering its small powers. As TFA says:

    The Commission is not legally obliged to institute the Parliament's recommendations but it must state fair reasons for anything that's rejected.

    1. Re:Non binding by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Sure, the EU 'parliament' basically has veto power and can make recommendations. It's not a legislature.

    2. Re:Non binding by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      Even the veto power is restricted to directives that go through the co-decision process [between EU council and EU parliament]. There are other subjets where it is just asked its opinion, or others where it is not involved at all.

    3. Re:Non binding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most decisions where it is not asked for an opinion are decisions that are not EU related. For example, this whole debacle with Greece falls outside the range of the parliament because it's not an EU thing, but a bunch of countries ganging up against another bunch of countries, these countries just all happen to be in the EU. Saying the EU parliament should have influence on the process is the same as saying "give the EU more power", but lots of people are against that.

  15. Someone has got to pay taxes by Neuronwelder · · Score: 1

    Taxes keep everything running and repaired. If they don't pay taxes, you will!!

  16. Corporations by campuscodi · · Score: 1

    EU and governments all over the world would do anything to protect corporations. The only tax they'll push is slacker tax in case you didn't find a job fast enough after a robot took yours

    1. Re: Corporations by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      You jest, but Belarus does have a slacker tax:
      https://www.theguardian.com/wo...

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap