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In Preparation For Model 3, Tesla Plans To Double the Size of Its Supercharger Network This Year (fortune.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Fortune: Tesla says it will double the number of electric vehicle chargers in its network this year as the automaker prepares for the production of its mass-market vehicle the Model 3. The plan, announced Monday in a blog post on the company's website, will grow its global network of Superchargers from more than 5,400 today to more than 10,000 by the end of the year. Tesla, which had previously announced in its annual shareholder letter plans to double the network in North America, did not disclose the cost of such an ambitious expansion. Many sites will soon enter construction to open in advance of the summer travel season, according to Tesla. The company says it will add charging locations within city centers as well as highway sites this year. The goal is to make "charging ubiquitous in urban centers," Tesla says in its blog post. The company says it will build larger sites along busy travel routes to accommodate several dozen Teslas simultaneously. These larger sites will also have customer service centers.
It would be nice if Tesla included charging for other vehicles. There are only so many sites on major routes where you can connect a megawatt or two of chargers to the grid, and Tesla has been fighting other networks to get them.
It would just kind of suck if all the best spots were Tesla only. I say that as someone who plans to buy a Model 3.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Some tips: If you can't threaten to tow away non-electric vehicles, at least put up a sign asking nicely that only electric vehicles park there, because I hear there's a big problem with ICE cars parking there. And from pictures, it's not real obvious the spots are supposed to be reserved. And be sure to put some kind of time limit, say 3 hours.
Would be even better if there was a practical way to plug other vehicles into the network.
(Pay Tesla for a Menekes adapter + fee/plan to access the supercharger network ?...)
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Instead of pulling into a supercharger and spending up to an hour recharging, couldn't they just pop my battery out and put a fully pre-charged on back in? I would have thought a medium sized bloke with a trolley and spanner could do it in a couple of minutes, about the same time as a petrol refuel. It would be pot-luck on how much life was left in the battery, but as long as the station guaranteed, say, 75%, I wouldn't complain. So does Tesla follow Apple on the battery replacement issue?
Global network.
10,000 chargers.
That's one every 5750 (ish) square miles.
Well done.
P.S. There are about the same total amount of petrol stations in the UK (though it used to be 4 times as many back in the 60's, but obviously ranges have increased and super-stores are now the preference rather than small independents), but in the UK that still gives you a petrol station every 9.5 square miles or thereabouts.
To be honest, according to: https://www.zap-map.com/statis... there are nearly 4000 Tesla and non-Tesla locations where you can charge a car just in the UK, with 12000 charging points. Even in the UK, electric is only one-half of petrol availability.
These Tesla stations are really a minority. They don't need to double, they need to do something radical like ten times the number of chargers just to start competing in the US alone. And continue that until saturation.
God knows how much electric 100,000 fast-charging stations pull. I doubt it's any more environmentally friendly than even 100,000 petrol cars.
In Preparation For Model 3, Tesla Plans To Double the Size of Its Supercharger Network This Year
Great. Now the plug will be too big for older cars ;-)
Tesla s going to go the way of DeLorian Motors and Iridium.
It'll go bust and someone will come and get the peices for pennies on the dollar.
THEN we will see Tesla and EVs start to take off.
Musk is trying to create a revolution in an industry the proceeds on evolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply#Cabling.2C_connectors_and_adapters
"Although compliance is voluntary"
"if a manufacturer makes available an Adaptor from the Micro-USB connector of a Common EPS to a specific non-Micro-USB socket in the Mobile Phone, it shall constitute compliance to this article", "... An Adaptor can also be a detachable cable."
Apple has a Lighting -> microusb adapter so everything you've said is bullshit.
I am fuel agnostic because I do not believe the electric cars currently fix any problems that I care about - there are 7.5b of us. The most effective planet saving measure is condom. Everything else is maybe necessary if improvement to the point of proven helping issues at stake AND being feasible for common man.
As for the vehicle, charging network etc - I do not quite understand the excitement. When Tesla or whoever fixes the problem bespoken above and in the subject then it can move on to fixing the price of a vehicle. When it becomes affordable for a common man I will think about buying one. Till then I will use a vehicle that burns oil, gas or whatever. As long as it is affordable and gets things to move where I want. Good however that other people get excited to the point of parting with the money. Development needs its supporters. Whether this is the solution of our problems I doubt. In any case I look at it be the iteration that solves two problems indicated.
Glad you set Elon straight with him not knowing what he's doing.
Much more basically, everyone else beside Tesla is standardizing on Menekes connector, on a similar one with additional pair of DC pins, and on Chademo.
Nobody else is using Tesla's connector right now.
That means that, for Tesla charger to be usable by other cars, you'd need a converter anyway.
That means there's market for Tesla to starts selling a converter, that enable other cars to charge, by both adapting connector and adapting various power standards. An whose pricing includes charging fee (just as super-charging is currently covered by the "super charger" option when ordering the car. Though apparently "pay as you go" is planned for the future).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Except that the market has already standardized on a different set.
Mennekes connectors are the current standard in Europe.
(And a similar variant "Combo" exist with an extra pair of DC pins)
Tesla's charging connector is the Apple Lightning port of EV.
Menekes and Combo are the micro USB and USB-3 equivalent.
(but with much better interoperability in between: closer to micro-USB 2 to micro-USB 3 rather than the more modern USB-C)
Though for Tesla's defence, even if Mennekes dates back from 2009, it was only declared official european standard in 2013, after the model S got already launched (2012).
On the other hand, from what I've read, Tesla's connector on European cars and european supercharger is modified for better interroperability with Mennekes (Yay !)... but still conveys the DC over the base pins of the european standard Mennekes AC connector, whereas the european standard calls for a Combo conenctor in case of DC.
So at least on the European market, Tesla has put some minimal efforts to be compatible with the rest, but still isn't there yet.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Instead of pulling into a supercharger and spending up to an hour recharging, couldn't they just pop my battery out and put a fully pre-charged on back in?
Technically possible but economically infeasible. Tesla's were designed to allow this and it proved to be economically not viable. They had a program and shut it down. For it to really work you would have to have a standard sized battery pack, widely used, with a customer base far larger than Tesla is likely to achieve in the near future to justify the cost of the infrastructure. To understate things greatly, swapping out a car battery pack is a wee bit harder than changing a laptop or cell phone battery. It requires significant and expensive automation to do quickly, not just a burly guy with a wrench and a lift. For it to make any kind of economic sense you need a critical mass of EV owning customers which we are in no danger of reaching in the next 5-10 years at minimum.
Realistically, fast recharging is a better solution in the long run due to network effects. It's going to be nigh-impossible to get car makers to agree on a standard sized battery pack and battery mounting system. Unless you have a substantial network of battery swap stations available (which we don't) there is no added value to swapping the batteries over existing infrastructure. It's comparatively easy to incrementally improve the charging infrastructure for fast charging. It's almost economically impossible to build a useful battery swap network incrementally. Worse, if fast (less than 20 min) recharging ever becomes viable any investment in a battery swap network would become instantly unprofitable.
So does Tesla follow Apple on the battery replacement issue?
Are you seriously comparing the $12000+ battery pack on a car designed to last the better part of a decade to the one in your cell phone? No, Tesla is not following Apple's lead on batteries. That would not be wise of them nor practical.
So plugs are an exception now?
Yes, plugs are actually an exception. Really.
Just like the European union has mandated USB charging for phones.
They have also mandated Mennekes for AC charging and Combo for DC charging. (Some but with 2 extra pins for the DC)
(Also same for the 2 pronged un-earthed mains power, and the shutko-like europlug for earthed mains)
Everything is done so that, no matter where you travel across Europe, you can still plug and charge your electrical device, no matter if its a laptop, a smartphone or an electric car.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Slashdot is making progress. I'm glad to see a discussion on electric cars on this forum where no-one is whining "electric cars will never work, you can't go more than 200 miles without needing to refuel... customers don't want electric..." etc,etc,et.
When even the luddites accept a technology as here to stay you know the technology is a success.
Now to win over the space luddites.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Isn't anyone concerned that Musk's plans are not financially sustainable and thus all this infrastructure and the cars on the road will have no maintenance or support to speak of? Tesla needs to turn a profit, not grab market share. His Model 3 production plans are so fraught with major risk that this is not the time to be doing this.
Before each Tesla is delivered to the customer, Elon Musk sits in the driver's seat and farts to give it that "Musky New Tesla Smell". When Model 3 production ramps up, will he be able to ramp up his farts?
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People keep talking about the model 3 but no one seems to be talking about the ugly, spartan dashboard that inspires absolutely no emotion or passion.
Featureless except for a generic tablet screen in the middle. No awe-inspiring gauge cluster. No pleasing lines and curves.
My 2014 Honda Accord has a far nicer looking dash and it's a mainstream mass-produced car that isn't particularly special. (I love my car, but there's nothing unique or thrilling about it.)
What the hell were they thinking? This is Tesla, damnit. They should be making a car that blows you away when you sit behind the wheel.
Yes, supercharging is much worse for the environment than regular charging.
That might be one of the most strained arguments I've ever heard. Talk about missing the big picture...
And supercharging isn't as energy efficient in itself either - the heat loss is larger than with slower charging.
Even if we stipulate that is true, it still better than burning fossil fuels to move a vehicle. A lot better. Just because the heat loss is some arbitrary amount larger when charging quickly doesn't make it a bad idea. Slow charging is only useful in a garage overnight when you aren't going to use the car for many hours. Any heat losses for rapid charging are more than made up for by not burning gasoline/diesel.
In countries that produce a good part of the electricity from coal and oil, that's not a good thing.
As opposed to burning the oil directly in a car? Weird logic you have there. An internal combustion engine is hugely inefficient and pollutes badly and you are arguing that a few supercharger stations are somehow a bad thing?
Featureless except for a generic tablet screen in the middle. No awe-inspiring gauge cluster. No pleasing lines and curves.
You find gauge clusters "awe-inspiring"? You need to get out more my friend if that really impresses you.
What the hell were they thinking? This is Tesla, damnit. They should be making a car that blows you away when you sit behind the wheel.
Have you sat behind the wheel of one? How do you know it won't blow you away? Given that the car hasn't entered production yet you seem awfully quick to judge...
Not that I have anything against EVs, I own one myself after all (Volt) and it's worked out really well for me but I think folks are misunderstanding marketing Tesla uses for it's SuperCharger network.
The SuperCharger network is not free, owners have essentially "paid" for it through the cost of their vehicle. Also it's been announced Telsa is thinking of charging Model 3 owners for the network because the profit margin is so narrow that there's nothing left to pay for the "free" power. Telsa also doesn't expect you to hog the network for daily charging. Almost all EV owners charge their car at home, at night when they sleep. It's how the Volt works for me. If everyone who owned a Telsa decided to supercharge all the time, there literally would be not enough chargers for everyone.
Tesla uses a proprietary charger that despite free patents is their own specific design. Every other EV uses an IEEE standard plug charger. It's so standard you can buy third party chargers for Volt, Leaf, Bolt, whatever but you won't find a third party making a specific Tesla charger.
As great as the supercharger network is, it doesn't exist everywhere. In Northern Canada where I am, there's no supercharger network. Even if there was one, you are going to purposely introduce several hour delays in your trip if you're going cross country. Not only that but if you miss the charging network somehow or end up lost, you'll need a tow truck to get you to a charge point instead of a can of gas. It's why I chose the Volt, it's gas when you need it for trips and cold weather but a pure EV for daily use.
Tesla's are super expensive compared to a Volt. This is because instead of using a compact engine to back up the battery, they try to compensate using a massive expensive battery instead. The price difference of the Telsa alone could pay for a lifetime of gas or several lifetimes of electricity.
nt
CCS does *not* support 350kW charging. If it did then you could point me to both a single 350kW charger installed for customer use anywhere in the world and a single car available for purchase which can use that charger. How can something be a "de facto" standard when it doesn't exist?
There is a de facto standard in 100kW+ charging, but it sure as hell isn't CCS.
No. There is a market for other car makers to make and sell the adapters.
Yeah, but who pays for the super-chargers?
- If Renault pockets all the money for Zoé-to-Tesla converters, and Opel pockets the Ampera-to-Tesla, etc. how's Tesla supposed to pay to build the towers ?
Tesla has to contibute in some ways to the converter in order to get cash.
- I suppose there is probably some form of handshaking to validate access for the car/converter (in the past, it used to be that super-charging was a paid separate option)
(And besides, they're the one producing NON-standard connectors.
The rest of Europe has moved to Mennekes for AC and Combo for DC (mostly similar DC goes on 2 extra pin).
Though I've read that Euro market Teslas and chargers seem to have moved to a proprietary that is more or less shaped closer to a Mennekes, so they are at least half-way through.)
They do not want EV sales. And Tesla spots are already full.
The success of EV in Europe begs to differ. (e.g.: Zoé is extremely popular in some markets)
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
1. Chargers have local battery storage--they can charge low & slow from the grid and then dump that energy quickly into a vehicle battery.
2. There is a *lot* of power available from those power lines you see running parallel to every "major route"
3. Tesla has offered to collaborate with other manufacturers for access to the Supercharger network--none of them have taken Tesla up on that offer.
CCS doesn't dominant as you suggest.
CSS (a.k.a. "Combo") for DC and Type 2 (a.k.a. Mennekes - the same but without the 2 extra pins for DC) for AC are the two official standard in Europe for electric cars.
Any no-name/3rd-party high-power station I've seen here around feature Mennekes connectors (random example : on the parking lot of local IKEA) or Mennekes+Combo+Chademo (random exemple: the nearest highway gaz station).
It might be different on your side of the Atlantic pond.
But in the old continent, Mennekes and CCS are the dominant connectors by official standardisation.
It's really the same situation as Apple with Lightning Port(NIH syndrome) vs. everyone else micro-USB 2/3 (also an Euro mandated standard).
Though to Tesla's deffense :
- Even if the connector exists since 2009, EU declared it the official standard only in 2013, one year later than Model S' 2012 official launch.
- I've read somewhere that european Tesla's and Super charger network use a modified connector that is more-or-less with a Mennekes-compatible shape (though still doesn't send DC on CCS pins) so at least they're halfway there.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Electric motors can't use superchargers... Misleading headline. Fast-charging stations.
Really?
From that page:
From the top of the same page (emphasis mine):
You might have missed the recent news but UK stopped being part of the European union.
(And EU regulation were big point on Brexiters' agument list).
Now for the detail :
- EU standard is Mennekes and Combo (the later is a backward compatible super-set of the former. You can charge a DC enabled car, with AC Mennekes charger - you'll only be limited to the maximum current of the AC). Together, even in the UK, Mennekes and combo account for more than half the cars.
- Mennekes and Combo are a recent standard (2013). Chademo is still getting phased out (and this will take time until it disappears, as there are still cars using it on the roads - mostly japanese brands where the standard was developed). But you can see on the yearly graph that there is a stagnation of Chademo between 2015 and 2016, and that there's an explosion of Mennekes and Combo over 2014/2015/2016.
If you look at current european car statistics :
- the top selling cars of 2017 (Zoé and Leaf) are Mennekes based.
That gives you a nice idea of where the current trend is heading.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Tesla is coming out with their 4th model. Who else has at least 3?
(Note I'm not counting proto-types, concept cars).
e.g.: Renault. :
the "zero emission" (Z. E.) currently familly covers
- Twizzy : a tiny in-city micr-car/quad (since 2012)
- Zoé : a small compact (since 2012)
- Fluence : a sedan (since 2011)
- Kangoo Z.E. : a pannel-van (since 2011)
(All of them in production. I ignore the concept cars, because they vary a lot regarding final production models - specially the Zoe)
I mostly know them because I'm mainly driving Zoés through the local carsharing, and they have a lot of marketing/outreach.
Note that : due to intricate difference of the European market (densely populated city centers, most people commute less than 50km per day) Renault went the opposite way from Tesla.
- Cheap small cars (Twizy, Zoe) where released from the nearly beginning, whereas Tesla started with big expensive cars first (went through Roadster, Model S sedan, Model X suv, before finally starting Model 3 any time soon).
- Small battery first (22kWh for all first, then progressively intoducing big batteries - like 43kWh for the current Zoe). Tesla would never stood any chance in the US if they didn't have 50~70kWh from the beginning.
- a tiny flea like the Twizy makes entirely sense in the densely populate cities of Europe (continent known for things such as Smart, Mini, etc. and even BMW C3 scooter). Such class of cars barely exist in the US because you people are affraid of being crushed if you don't own the biggest SUV possible. Tesla would have been laughed of if they attempted something like this in the land of the hummer.
- an electric minivan like Kangoo actually makes sense in a dense European city, even with a 22kWh battery - most typical trips for which such an utility vehicle might be needed are well within the battery's range - Tesla isn't even considering minivans yet.
Nissan is partly owned by Renault, so they probably have similar offerings (quick search returns: New Mobility Concept, Leaf, Kubistar).
Citroën/Peugeot has also several electric models : ...and a couple of others that I'm too lazy to properly research.
- C-Zero / iOn : compact (since 2009)
- Berlingo Electric : van (since somewhere 2008? replaces the 1991(!) C15 electric - these are *really* old tech and use NiCd battery) (Again in Europe this did make sens for their use pattern - Post office.)
- e-Mehari : convertible compact SUV (since 2016)
VW has also a certain choice of electric vehicle :
- eUP! : small compact since 2013.
- e-Golf: compact since 2012
- Camper (yup, the iconic one comes back in electric version) : tough still concept in 2017, full production expected in 2020.
More funny example :
The entire fleet in the Swiss village of Zermatt is build by a local small scale workshop since 1977. It covers a very diverse range of vehicle (taxis, utility, etc.) but these are custom built on a per-unit basis (it's a very small production, only for the village) (also, as the vehicles only drive within the village, range is definitely NOT a problem, and the vehicles can very easily benefit from battery swapping).
There are probably other companies featuring more than a single model. I'm just too lazy to research further.
Again, this is due to Europe being a completely different market from the US.
Range isn't much critical (as mentioned above, most daily commutes are under 50km), electricity doesn't rely on fossils, etc.
And as such electric vehicles have been available for quite some time (as mentioned above : Citroen provided the French Post Office with
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
The EU can mandate two-pronged mains power plugs as much as it likes, but the UK isn't changing from 3-pronged Type-G, and certainly won't change now.
Don't forget that adapter...
You might not have noticed, but in the UK isn't in the EU anymore...
Nope: In Europe you can encounter plug types C, E, F, G, J, K and L: http://www.worldstandards.eu/e...
I you pay close attention :
- G is only with the weird guy who decided to Brexit any way.
- J is Swiss. See "UK" for more information (and is compatible with C anyway).
- C, E, F, K are all compatible with Europlug (C & E/F). In theory some combination are less safe due to absent grounding, but in practice modern manufacturer tend to build their plugs and socket intelligently (e.g.: notice how the same plug in E & F has contacts for both type of grounding. Same goes for socket which is able to accept a range of prong width). I strongly suspect that Danemark has the same kind of approach to multi-standard sockets as Italy (Haven't been there to check, but adapters seems to be built this way).
- L : that picture is the theory/past history (and the 10A version is still compatible with C anyway). In practice, in italy, you'll find hybrid connectors that can safely accept with grounding the Europlug (E/F) in addition to both Italian (10A and 16A) and the 2 prong C.
So basically, if you have an Europlug (E/F) you can travel all over the European Union and plug your device everywhere (still have to check if it can safely be grounded in Danemark, though).
You'll need adapters only for UK (not in EU anymore), CH (never was EU to begin with, and still compatible with 2 prongs anyway), and for the occasional old Italian house which wasn't converted to E/F/L hybrid yet (and is also compatible with 2 prongs C).
I have traveled a lot within Europe (except Danemark), I speak from practical personal experience.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Overnight charging is the best way to charge an EV. Utterly painless, takes no time, hardly useless.
Explain to me how overnight charging is going to enable an EV with a range of 200 miles to drive from Detroit to NYC. Or do you live in a fantasy land where people never go more than a short distance from their house? Exactly how do you propose people who don't own a garage and/or who have to park on a street charge their vehicles?
There is a clear and obvious market for being able to recharge an electric vehicle in a manner similar to filling up at a gas station. To pretend otherwise is just dumb if you actually want to see EVs replace gas powered vehicles. We don't necessarily need charging stations on every street corner like gas stations but we do need them.
For some people, the greater battery capacity of newer EVs means even less need for higher capacity chargers. The greater the battery capacity the less the need to recharge quickly while on the road.
You could have an EV with a range of 1000 miles and there would still be a need for gas station style recharges in reasonable amounts of time. Less need does not equal zero need.
It has worked extremly well. The majority of gadgets nowadays - and not just phones - use micro-USB for charging.
The downside being that microUSB sucks as a physical connector.
Also microUSB is terrible for charging your electric vehicle... ahem. :-)
No, for a car that can do 200+ miles on a single charge why would you even want a generator in tow?
Umm... because I want to drive farther than 200 miles or I'm going to a location where the options to recharge are poor to nonexistent. I do that routinely. My parents live far enough away that there is no EV on the market today that could reach them without a recharge along the way. My gas powered truck can reach them on a single tank of gas easily. Furthermore it's more than a little rude to arrive at someone's house and ask if you can mooch some of their electrons so you can get home. There are precisely zero conveniently located recharge stations along the route and even if there were the best case recharge time (Tesla Supercharger) would add the better part of an hour to the trip - each way. It's even worse if you are traveling to someplace rural. It's pretty easy to carry some extra cans of gasoline. Pretty hard to get electrons when you are nowhere close to the grid.
I wouldn't mind having a towable gas/diesel range extender for long trips until they can get a critical mass of recharge stations with adequately fast recharge times available. I'm an EV enthusiast but it's important to make allowances for the fact that the technology and infrastructure are still works in progress.
You are missing the point that almost each Tesla owner has is own personal gas station at home where charging occurs most of the time.
The key word there is "most". For EVs to supplant ICEs there will have to be ubiquitous charging infrastructure available for nearly all situations, not just most. Long trips, rural travel, people without garages, etc. There is a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built to turn Pinocchio into a real boy. Right now there are relatively few people who can own an EV as their sole automobile because of the fueling limitations. This more than anything else is what holds EVs back from wide spread acceptance.