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Opinion: Even if You Hate the Idea, Windows Users Should Want Windows 10 S To Succeed (arstechnica.com)
Last week, Microsoft unveiled Windows 10 S, a new variant of its desktop operating system aimed largely at the education space. While time will tell how this new edition of Windows fares, if early reactions from enthusiasts are anything to go by, Windows 10 S is in for a tough ride ahead. For one, Windows 10 S only permits installation of applications from the Windows Store. If that wasn't a deal-breaker, several popular applications including Google's Chrome are missing from the Store. Amid all of this, reporter and columnist Peter Bright has an op-ed up on ArsTechnica in which he argues that despite the walled-garden offering, people should want Windows 10 S to succeed as it could make Windows better for everyone else. From his article: This [forbidding execution of any program that wasn't downloaded from the Windows Store] positions Microsoft as a gatekeeper -- although its criteria for entry within the store is for the most part not stringent, it does reserve the right to remove software that it deems undesirable -- and means that the vast majority of extant Windows software can't be used. This means that PC mainstays, from Adobe Photoshop to Valve's Steam, can't be used on Windows 10 S. [...] Some of the arguments against this are bizarre. Notably, the complaint that Microsoft has now erected a paywall -- "you have to pay $50 to run Steam!" -- is very peculiar when one considers that, in general, Windows licenses have never been free. [...] The Windows Store makes bad parts of Windows better: I'd argue, however, that Windows users should want Windows 10 S to succeed. Windows 10 S isn't for everybody, and Windows 10 S may not be for you, but if Windows 10 S succeeds, it will make Windows 10 better for everyone. The Store in Windows RT required developers to write their apps from scratch. With negligible numbers of users, developers were uninterested in doing this work. The Store in Windows 10 has Centennial. In principle, Centennial should make it easy to package existing Win32 apps and sell them through the Store, and if developers of Windows apps adopt Centennial en masse then the Store restriction shouldn't be particularly restrictive. Widespread adoption will be good for Windows users of all stripes.
"and if developers of Windows apps adopt Centennial en masse then the Store restriction shouldn't be particularly restrictive."
Let me know when Centennial is complete enough that Microsoft can put Visual Studio on Windows Store.
I don't buy it.... For Windows 10 S to "succeed", they need a high sales number. A high sales number translates to the people at the top that their product is good and people want it, which means they make more of it, and develop future products similar to it.
Windows 10 S is not good. Wanting Windows 10 S to succeed is saying that you want more of Windows 10 S type products in the future.
No. I do not want more walled gardens. No, I do not want Windows 10 S to succeed.
okay, who ever the MS Employee pushing this is. Kindly back off. First, there is NO good reason we want this or anything connected to Windows 10 to succeed because it's basically an information trojan with no respect for privacy (or even pretence of it) for the end user. Second, posting this a second time looks kind of desperate. What we really want people to do is drop the trojan/boated Windows 10 and starting using ElementaryOS or Linux Mint. It's so easy to do folks, and the world at large will thank you. (as MS will have to reconsider it's abuse of the public.)
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
"positions Microsoft as a gatekeeper"
Just like Windows Defender and its giant spy hole. Yes, this is certainly worth 30% cut of every sale.
A well-known Microsoft's shill. Just read some of his articles on Ars Technica, they sound like vulgar TV commercials.
Since you're restricted to one store it stifles competitive pricing for apps and games.
OEMs will be happy to include 10 S as it makes their devices cheaper and easier to support, it will be the defacto standard version of Windows, suddenly all casual desktop users are funneled to the Windows Store.
If MS had a store API that let other vendors hook in and provide their own storefronts this would not be a big deal, but for some reason they don't. I hear the Windows Store compared to a package repo in Linux, but it's not, you can't add third party sources.
Twinstiq, game news
I want S to succeed so the Windows Store is more populated?
Sorry; no. I don't particularly care about that, OR Windows S. Given MS's behavior since 7, I'm more inclined to want to see it fail.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Pro: Microsoft has complete control over what can be installed on your computer, so they can prevent malware.
Con: Microsoft has complete control over what can be installed on your computer, so they can bilk you for every last cent.
Apple essentially already does this. However, people tend to have a lot of trust in Apple for some reason. I'm not sure that applies to Microsoft.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Sorry to Godwin this one so quick, but at this point it's like saying you want Hitler to succeed because eugenics is actually a really good idea when it comes down to it.
If S gets through the 'safety' for tha kids will end the PC Windows market.
... it is not that I want any particular version of Windows to succeed or fail. It is that I want Microsoft to become more of a user-friendly company, a company that does not appear to view the users of its software as mere raw material to be harvested, processed and sold to advertisers.
Continues writing a lot of stuff but never say WHY.
Why would we want it to succeed? So it become less restrictive than now? Yay.. Good reason.
So idiots can use Windows with no problem? How does that help me?
Windows S is bad because a Windows store is bad because if Windows store become the de-facto or only way to buy stuff then competition dies in Windows and with that you can be sure prices will get worse.
The author seems to want Win 10S to succeed because it will result in better Windows Store apps, with a simple install process, which can be used by all Windows users.
Right off the bat, doesn't this place an unreasonable amount of confidence that anything coming from the app store will not be evil?
Secondly, all my problems with Windows 10 have been outside the Windows Store experience that I don't see endearing the product to the education market. I have a couple of Win10 machines with 32GBytes of eMMC; doing an update is hell as it requires an external USB thumb drive and takes multiple hours - something that can't be tolerated in a classroom environment where there are dozens of PCs. I've bitched about my problems with the Win10 Bluetooth stack and I don't see anybody in Microsoft fixing that, even as the need for BT is growing with different external devices.
Next, I feel like Microsoft is going to continually look for opportunities to monetize the platform. Office 365 revenues flat lining? Say, let's start charging all those kids using Win 10S machines, the schools are just wasting money on hot lunch programs that should be going to Microsoft.
Finally, there is the privacy issue. Win 10 seems to be designed around collecting user data and exploiting it. Is this something parents want to have happen to their children? You can say that Google and Chrome do the same thing but it doesn't seem to be a core part of their business model. I wouldn't be surprised coming home to a kid that is demanding an Windows OS'd phone because the computer at school told them how much better it is than their stupid Android or iOS phone.
I know I'll get replies from numerous AC's who feel that I'm being unreasonably harsh towards Microsoft and what they're doing with the Windows 10 S platform, which is much better than ChromeOS even though nobody's seen it before but I just don't see Microsoft having the right stuff or approach to take on the education market in way that is positive for students and not completely exploitative.
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
Clearly Microsoft is chasing Google again in a half-assed way.
The draw of Chromebooks was not simply cheap laptops. Schools (like us) are drawn to the fact that the supporting cloud infrastructure is stupidly easy to manage.
Local apps don't matter. The few people in our school that need local apps get by on Mac OS or Windows. Everyone else gets a chromebook - their data and apps live in the cloud.
Even if Microsoft built a robust App Store - it wouldn't matter as that's not what draws schools to Chromebooks in the first place.
It is better for such things so tightly linked to walled gardens to fail. So I am heavily hoping that Windows 10s will fail spectacularly. (Not that it is even close to the only thing with that problem, but that is not reason cheer it.)
They should do what Apple does with macOS.
With their GateKeeper feature, they restrict Installations to "Mac App Store and Registerred Developers", but users can override that (after receiving an appropriate warning).
If MS would make it so a "Policy" could force the "Windows Store Only", but if not, then Users could override that restriction if NOT set as a policy, then that would be much better than their true Walled Trash-Heap approach.
Windows has a store? Are you sure about that? I've been using Windows 10 since it came out, and new used this Store thing. Does it sell shirts or something?
The summary provided isn't terribly sharp; it takes out any of the justification provided in the Ars piece and relates mostly the author's opinions. Mr. Bright's actual argument is that the Windows 10 Store fills the hole of a single, consistent package manager, promising that applications will be cleanly installed, updated, and uninstalled without the diversity of mechanisms abundant currently. He doesn't offer any defense of Windows 10 S beyond that, nor of the essential problem of a locked-down ecosystem and all of the censorship-related complications, which are waved off in the first three paragraphs (along with a screenshot of the Popcorn Time installer failing to run.) I don't believe he even defends the ostensible cleanliness benefits of closed ecosystems. All of the positives that he cites would be obtainable if it were simply possible to hook into Windows Update, a notion he mentions.
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
We want to be in a walled garden, as long as it's a good walled garden. No thank you.
Windows failed. Again.
https://twitter.com/taviso/sta...
aaaaaaa
I doubt Windows 10 S will ever get deployed for the Enterprise desktop. I work in a Windows 7 shop. Win8 got put into test but never deployed beyond a few dozen tablets. Win10 is in test and has a 50/50 chance of getting approved for deployment. Win10S might be the next Win8.
Why find out the hard way when someone else has tested for you? Sometimes it is the manufacturer themselves! Just because dell, for example, wont sell it with Ubuntu(or others) on in your country does not mean that they don't elsewhere, check the list.
It's so funny to see the people lined up against UBI for individuals as some kind of socialist tyrany, but you never see the same kind of logic applied to walled gardens where OS/device makers skim profit off of everything that runs on "their" devices.
It's icky, monopolistic and seems only designed to extract rents, not add any value to the product or consumers. I used to be sort of receptive to the idea that it adds some element of security, but too many bad apps have passed through and its too often just used to reject apps that conflict with the maker's own cloud/services (even when they don't exist yet).
We're just in this relentless march towards total corporate monopolies where rent can be extracted multiple times and competition eliminated, guaranteeing profits, and nobody seems to care.
And this is like problem 6 on a long laundry list of death marches.
In an education setting, it does make a lot of sense to lock down the student laptops to ensure that they
a) Can be managed easily over the cloud
b) Can't be easily tampered with or ruined by students
c) Don't get a plethora of games and other distractions installed on them
I can see it helping said causes above, but is by no means a foolproof solution.
I see it as more of a trojan for Windows to eventually do away with applications that aren't on it's store. MS has been pushing their store damn hard, and the telemetry that is tied to their default web, video, music, and photo apps really grinds my gears when I try and change them and am "helpfully reminded" that Microsoft has it's own info sucking defaults. Then it annoys me by asking if I would like to change my mind.
No. I know what the f**k I am doing Microsoft.... but more to the point, I know what you are trying to do.
I know what the S stands for in Windows 10 S.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
786-485-9715
What does not happen, usually, is the expectation that the employee go off clock and do the work themselves, or buy a computer to do the work. This is what happens in education. If a teacher can't get work done on paid time, they are expected to work for free. Free work is usually a result of incompetent management. There is no overtime.
This extends to the classroom. While we all understand that the computer must be locked down, and both Windows and Mac allows administrators limit software that can installed. However limiting software that can be run is going to impose a limitation that many will find too restrictive. For instance, there are some open source programs that are used in science and computer science that can be run from USB. These do not need to be installed. They allow some flexibility so students can learn.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
The whole reason Apple and Android have app stores was to lock out the malware developers and remove the need for virus scanners. That's a major overhead for Microsoft and Intel who have to invest money and time on OS/Web/Application firewalls. For a PC, virus definition files used 256 Megabytes of disk space. Now if Microsoft gets the apps pre-screened, they don't need as much virus scanning to be done.
But many third party applications do help identify and isolate sources of data leaks like "Windows Experience Feedback".
This [forbidding execution of any program that wasn't downloaded from the Windows Store] [...] means that the vast majority of extant Windows software can't be used. [...] Some of the arguments against this are bizarre.
The author then goes on to attack some of the dumb arguments, and ignore the only argument which matters. It's my PC. I decide what I want to run. Microsoft is horrible at virtual machines on your desktop; their cloud container technology might be perfectly suitable, I wouldn't know, but Virtual PC is garbage. XP Mode on Windows 7 fails to run a pretty fair sampling of older Windows software which runs fine under normal XP installed into VMware Player. The Direct3D passthrough layer in Virtual PC is also years behind the one in VMware.
The Windows Store makes bad parts of Windows better
The worst parts of windows are 1) Spyware and 2) Suckware. 1 is obvious. 2: In order to be useful, Windows has to run my legacy Windows software. But in order to do that, Windows has to suck. It has to be made out of layers and layers of cruft in order to perform that function. And that is going to kill it dead. This would be OK if Microsoft were powerful enough to force VMware to sell (they aren't) or if they were competent enough to make Virtual PC work well enough to run Windows 7 under Windows 10 to catch all the software users want to run with acceptable performance and compatibility (they aren't) but since that legacy software is what makes Windows viable in the marketplace, this is a short and pointless road.
Perhaps we should be rooting for Microsoft to cut off their base of legacy software, because it's what's going to finally kill them off completely. Without inertia, they have nothing; certainly not technical superiority. Lock-in only works so long as you let people keep the stuff they're locked in to.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
MS want it this way, and it'll happen, sooner or later. Everybody will have to make their Windows applications available through the Store, eventually. Valve, Adobe will have no choice.
I'll get right on that, soon as I can play a current top tier game on OtherOS.
I see plenty of room for "no true Scotsman" plays based on how you define "current" and "top tier". One might, for example, reason that Fox McCloud is currently top tier, and Super Smash Bros. Melee runs in Dolphin, which runs on X11/Linux.
"A good product sells itself"
Byebye MS.
It's the usual Windows cycle:
Windows XP - Excellent
Windows Vista - Garbage
Windows 7 - Cream of the crop
Windows 8 - A poor GUI (Microsoft learned that adopting scientific methods for GUI development wasn't a good idea)
Windows 10 - Massive improvement on Windows 8 - almost as good as Windows 7 (The separation between local users and Microsoft account users makes it harder to do simple tasks like share printers)
I have liked and disliked many versions of Windows over the years. The ones I've liked are 95B, 98 SE, ME, 2000, XP and 7. Anything before 7 that I didn't like were due to performance. Anything after 7 has been because of design and the change of direction Microsoft has taken. I've gone from being very happy running Windows to absolutely hating the recent Windows. I have 8.1 on my home theatre PC, and it does the job well enough, but there are things about it that I dislike. 10 will not be on any of my devices. Personally I don't care one way or the other about 10S. Microsoft can try as hard as they like, but I will never buy anything from Microsoft's store.
It seems like every move after Windows 7 has been steering me towards Linux, and I've been very happy with the change. One by one my devices are moving from Windows to Linux. Finally Netflix and Amazon Prime are easy to use on Linux, so my HTPC will be changed soon. Laptops and my netbook were changed over two years ago. My servers have been changed a year ago, and after seeing the difference I wish I had done that a long time ago. My main PC is Win7 for gaming, but that will change when I build my new one. I will probably have a couple of Win7 VMs for specific functions that require Windows, when WINE can't handle it. Even at work where I have to run Windows I have a Linux VM going, which is what I'm on right now.
Many Windows applications are no longer an issue. Even on Windows I've dumped Microsoft Office and other commercial products for open source alternatives. It wasn't about money, it was about dealing with the DRM problems. It bothers me that people paying for a product get an inferior version to what the pirates get. I see so much time wasted having to jump through the hoops to fix activation issues, or simply get Office 2016 activated.
I know there are those that believe Linux is difficult to use, or not ready for the desktop, but I think those people haven't tried the right mainstream distro, or given it a real chance. One of the common complaints is having to use the terminal to get certain things done. I can say from experience using the terminal is way easier than dealing with the commands in powershell.
So I really no longer care about Microsoft, except for their two face take on Linux where they say they love and support Linux, and then bully or sue over Linux patents any chance they can.
In short, I don't want Windows 10 S to fail, I want Microsoft to fail. Unless MS can go back to what they used to be.
So they can remove applications from Windows that have been there for years, and charge you more money for worse versions of them?
Is that this great, amazing new world that they're pushing?
Someone needs to let MS's social media that they're a long way past the limits of people's suspension of disbelief with this garbage they're pushing.
Sorry, as soon as I walked away, I realized there were more issues in regards to the perspective on Windows that are a problem:
Edge. Sorry, I don't think it's reasonable to have to maintain a web page for Edge and IE because Microsoft won't use Webkit/be compatible with everything else out there. Companies need to provide responsive pages for tablets and smartphones - they shouldn't need to do the same amount of work for Microsoft browsers (that aren't even fully compatible with each other).
All that crap information on Windows 10 (and 8). If ANYBODY involved with Windows 10 S has ever seen how kids work in a classroom, then they should be clearing off the time/news updates/sports updates/weather/etc. that is in the Win10 scrawl at the bottom. This is just a distractor for kids which takes their attention away from the class material - unfortunately getting rid of it will get rid of potential Microsoft revenue streams so it's not going.
So, why do we want Windows 10 S to succeed?
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
Windows 10 S isn't for everybody, and Windows 10 S may not be for you, but if Windows 10 S succeeds, it will make Windows 10 better for everyone.
If Windows 10 S succeeds, it means MS will discontinue W10 in favor of this walled garden. Why the hell would they continue with a more open platform if consumers accept their attempts at stooping lower still? Out of the kindness of their black, oily, hearts? Out of a desire to maintain multiple branches of the same OS?
I have from this obvious inference concluded that the author is an idiot that spends his free time writing insightful retorts in the Youtube comment section.
The massive blind spot (or possibly rhetorical sleight-of-hand) here is the casual conflating of "The Windows Store" with "a new Windows packaging mechanism".
.exe installers isn't great; and that the ability of win32 applications to, unless very, very, carefully kept on a leash, scribble all over one another is a risk. If so; an improved installer format and some sort of application isolation(ideally not hacked on with a bunch of virtualization layers; like the "App-V" stuff designed to let enterprise users take legacy applications and isolate them whether they like it or not).
It's pretty easy to make a case that today's combination of mostly MSI files with some vendors still shipping in-house or legacy
However, none of this has any relationship whatsoever with Microsoft's precious "App Store"; and their desire to be the sole gatekeeper for cryptographically blessed software and get their 30% cut. And this aspect of the deal is not something that is of plausible value to anyone who isn't Microsoft. It's unlikely that MS will be able to get rid of 'legacy' Windows entirely; because Corporate would scream; but they would love for this 'Windows S' to become the de-facto 'Home Edition', with anyone who wants to go outside the walled garden paying an upgrade fee for the privilege.
This seems like a fatal flaw in the argument. If this were just about a fight between MSI loyalists and APPX fanboys; it would be easy to make the case that the legacy tech isn't good enough. That, however, is a relatively minor part of the issue; with the 'Store' being placed front and center by Microsoft's decision to effectively link UWP/APPX with the store(yes, there is a 'sideload' switch, at least for now; but the only remotely preferred configuration involves everyone with a Microsoft account, buying software, from any vendor, through the Microsoft store.
I mean seriously, what kind of logic are they using? Reverse polish notation logic?
Seriously? Windows 10 S removes one of the most important aspects to the traditional Windows OS---running whatever you want on your own workstation. Now MS wants to become the toll-taker on the road to the walled garden. No thanks!
Actually I'm a Windows user and in the long run I would rather want Windows to fail. Microsoft is drifting toward software as a service with cable TV sales model, where locked OS will only allow rental of programs from tightly controlled sources. I wish Linux on the desktop to be ultimate winner with it's open mindset allowing me to use my own hardware any way I want. The only thing that makes me Windows user is the software ecosystem. No matter what Linux fanboys say, Windows ecosystem is second to none.
TFA is entirely corporate doublespeak. It literally makes as much sense as Intel PR shills attempting to justify a shift in production from ICs to abacus beads.
The benefits of running applications in isolated containers is a justification for jails not artificially restricting execution and the means of distribution.
Edge. Sorry, I don't think it's reasonable to have to maintain a web page for Edge and IE because Microsoft won't use Webkit/be compatible with everything else out there.
Edge or no Edge, your HTML documents still need to work in more than one engine. Firefox on platforms other than iOS doesn't use WebKit either; it uses Gecko. Though Blink in Chrome on platforms other than iOS is similar to WebKit, it has diverged somewhat in the four years since the fork.
The faster the hardware the slower the user experience seems to get.... Now why is that?
How does this apply to Windows 10 S? I'm under the impression the "S" stands for "S"tartup & "S"hutdown but in time it'll be just as slow as and non-windows 10 S... just as any new windows install is fast... but in time slows down.
If this succeeds, we'll see a future where when you buy a PC, it'll come with an OS preinstalled that you can't uninstall or reinstall because you don't have a signed bootloader from a authorized OEM. On this OS you'll only be able to run software that's been duly blessed by the vendor. Oh you've got some cool idea for a killer app / game... gotta submit the source code to possibly a future competitor..
Any peripherals you'd like to attach have to be specify allowed.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
...was a smug douche bag shill? Oh yeah, still is. Disregard
On Android you can install Amazon Store, on Windows there's Steam, Origin, UPlay, GoG, on Mac there is Steam as well, these are all curated storefronts with an eye on malware.
The issue here is they cannot be added to Windows 10 S as a companion storefront even though they do as much to "lock out the malware developers and remove the need for virus scanners."
Twinstiq, game news
and this one is stupid.
10 S should fail, it should fail and die, then the idiots who conceived and approved this monstrosity should be fired and ostracized from the IT community forever.
It's a step backwards for computing. I bailed on Apple before they built their walled garden and I'd bail on Microsoft if it looks like this is going to be the future of their OS.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Since you're restricted to one store it stifles competitive pricing for apps and games.
Like Steam or the Apple / Android store? Oh, wait, none of that happened.
"Insightful", my ass.
You're insane. This is just like Facebook Basic, the internet service where FB and its ilk is all you get for free. Fuck that, fuck them, and seriously fuck you. You've no clue what education needs. My wife is a teacher and the last thing she needs is another shitty Windows OS on her PCs that breaks with every update. There's nothing more ridiculous than this idea and it needs to die a quick painful death.
Sux? thats what I thought. Maybe it was supposed to be 'Store', but I'm running with Sux.
What is the difference between windows 10 S and phone with Android or Gaming Console? Is it the death of universal computers as we know them? Simple machines that can process any code written for them?
If you want a AppConsole that is nice a runs fast but restricts you to content AppConsole's owner wants you to use then use Android (or some left-behind competitor like Wind 10S). If you want to have universal PC then use Linux.
Well, I've got to get back to work. When I stop rowing, the slave ship just goes in circles.
My first thought on Win10S was "Why would you do this?!"
In hindsight, I was wrong. I've griped about applications mucking around and breaking other applications for years. Store applications are sandboxed to prevent that. That's the big win from pushing people to store apps. Additionally, applications have to ask your permission to use your camera, microphone, location, etc and you don't have to worry about download bundling tomfoolery (CNET) that feels like a net win. Even so, I don't like any company, even my employer*, to be the gatekeeper for what can and can't run on a PC. I'm curious to know if 10S supports developer mode where apps can be sideloaded.
* Full disclosure: I work for Microsoft, but this is my own and not my employers.
Should we still hope for Windows 10S success, when we want to see Windows, and Microsoft, and all of Microsoft's products, fail because they cripple productivity and innovation worldwide due to their extreme mediocrity?
will these be in the application store or will Microsoft keep these out so as to lock people into Office 365 and Edge ? What about things like the Gimp ?
Thank you Microsoft for creating a separate Windows, Windows 10 S. Like we don't have enough versions of Windows already. Microsoft should be making it easier on users, not themselves. Give people choice to purchase from the store or from other means. Microsoft should have implemented this the way Apple has it in Mac OS X. There is only one version of OS X. Apple implemented a Gatekeeper that the user or administrator can change.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202491
These 3 options help the user get Chrome and other items not in the Apple store. Windows 10 S is dead on arrival as it relies on Edge. Edge might get to the capability to Chrome or Firefox someday, but it is not here today.
Imagine Windows 10 Pro with a Gatekeeper feature that administrators and users could enable. It would be a win for users and for secure computers.
cya sack a shit spyware malware
the PC you own
That's why you put the make and model and "linux" into google search for the laptop you want to buy, not for the one you just bought.
As I wrote in a previous comment, beggars can't be choosers. Not everyone can just up and spend $799 for a brand new System76 laptop.
Since you're restricted to one store it stifles competitive pricing for apps and games.
I think you mean the opposite. The Apple and Android app stores have been a competitive race to the bottom for pricing, to the point where almost everything is now freemium.
in fact now that i have one set of apps to infect its easier then ahving competing products as i know that , that one app everyone uses once infected, infects EVERYONE
muhaha
Death to curated computing in all its forms. Long live general-purpose computing!
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Um, no. App stores increase competition because all the apps are directly lined up against each other and it is trivial to comparison/price shop (as opposed to each vendor having their own website or other commercial channels). Just look at Apple's app store or Google Play.. it's a pricing race to the bottom.
The "must install from the app store" is the problem. It may work for phones, but general purpose OSes need more flexibility.
On Android you can install alternative stores, and yes Steam is an alternative store but can't be on Windows 10 S
On Android you can install multiple stores, and yes iOS market is shrinking and you have to pay for apps on iOS that you get free on Android
Twinstiq, game news
Competition works if there is *actually competition*. Steam is primarily games, with a handful of apps (most of which relate to games). The iOS app store isn't in direct competition with any stores, I cannot directly buy Amazon music using an iOS device. I *might* find the app in question on Google Play, but that depends on me having an android device on top of my iOS device. Either way, I'm buying into a walled garden.
If MS does get their act together and make a store worth a crap, the worrisome (and likely obvious) next step is for them to lock down to that store. Then there is no Steam, no Origin, no uPlay. Maybe even no GoG (on windows, at least). They could spin it as "Easy! Safe! Secure!", but they'd remove all competition on Windows... and get a nice cut from any sales done in their store.
None of those prevent you from installing your own shit on your device AFAIK.
At the very least Steam doesn't stop you, don't know about Apple and Android.
Who the f are you to tell anyone what they should want? Typical democrat thinking: something is objectively bad, clearly undesirable, and serves no purpose other than to line the pockets of central planners. Therefore declare it a MORAL IMPERATIVE to want it. It's a microaggression if you use Linux. Two if you use Linux without systemd.
A walled garden is not a good thing for anybody. This will fail miserably as it should!
WTF?
Win 10 S doesn't have side loading so no you can't install your own shit on your own device if that device runs Win 10 S
If MS had a Store API that other storefronts like Steam, GoG, Origin, UPlay, etc could hook into, then they would prevent malware as well as allow competition.
please oh please let us be the next steam we know where 15 years late to the party but please.
"That's a major overhead for Microsoft.."
Oh good! I bet it saves so much "overhead" M$ won't even have to charge the 30% fee for using the store then right?
I would like to see an equivalent or better operating system have equivalent or better support for all popular software applications. Once this happens, Microsoft will bleed money faster than you can imagine.
We'll make great pets
Maybe because you don't want to have to administer computers for idiots? If you are handing out laptops to people to use on your behest it makes a ton of sense.
love is just extroverted narcissism
While a curated store is good for the average user I won't tolerate anything that restricts what I can or can't do on my computer. Apple will at least let you turn off the store requirements for their computers or make exceptions. The push for cloud everything is just a method for them to collect more data. Storing your data on someone else's servers is not the answer to privacy or security.
Almost as much as I like the idea of ramming the steaming turd that is Windows 10 down Nutella's gaping throat.
Windows 10 needs to die. It took the dumbing down of OS X and went full retard, while monetizing users and making them pay for it.
Thing one:
Windows 10 S violates the "one code base to rule them all" design decision for which they've been taking so much heat in the recent past. Windows 10's Frankenstein combination of touch-centric and non-touch-centric interfaces was specifically so that they could have a single code base for the entire product line.
So ok, whether to fragment their code base up to them, it's their code. But I strongly suspect that 10 S is really a test balloon for the entire code base to go to a walled-garden-only scheme.
Thing two:
"it does reserve the right to remove software that it deems undesirable" -- yeah, like, competing products.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
In my experiences the education space is filled with esoteric applications. in fact most of the time you are doing some lab, project, etc. on school computers it is in some old piece of software created by some guy who used to work for the school 20 years ago. These software applications do not tend to be in The Windows store.
Thinking back on my academic career, I was to wonder, if I never used a computer that was strictly running mainstream currently maintained software, how are they going to sell a computer that runs only that to anyone?
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
My younger brother, who is a Windows user because of games, is constantly hoping for Windows failure.
With Windows fall others will come, mostly Linux. He believes that Apple's ecosystem is so toxic that even if it becomes the most used system, Linux will still get all the games and best applications.
IMO that makes sense and it's a good thing to want. Better than Windows's success.
Legacy Win32 apps will be relegated to a VM that won't have unfettered access to hardware and will be locked out of the UWP side eventually to prevent any security issues.
It will die off in that its libraries and APIs will be frozen and no longer updated, there will surely be a cutoff point to security support. When UWP apps are numerous enough and there is a shift to ARM, Win32 will be slow as x86 is emulated, making it useless for games and further encouraging abandoning it.
> OEMs will be happy to include 10 S as it makes their devices cheaper and easier to support, it will be the defacto standard version of Windows, suddenly all casual desktop users are funneled to the Windows Store.
Happy? It will reduce their hardware revenue and profit as they compete against each other for the low end of the market (rush to the bottom), and against Chromebooks. It will entirely eliminate their software revenue and profit and the subsidies for shovelware, passing all that to Microsoft instead.
No, OEMs will not be happy, they will only do this because Microsoft will wave 'loyalty' discounts on _all_ products at them if they don't - just like MS did for Netbooks.
> App stores increase competition because all the apps are directly lined up against each other and it is trivial to comparison/price shop
That works for Android because Google _allows_ competition - eg Microsoft apps including Office are in Play Store.
With Windows 10S there is no assurance that _all_ apps will be "lined up". In particular it seems unlikely that LibreOffice, OpenOffice, WPS, or many others will be allowed. It seems that Firefox and Chrome will not.
Are you blind man? If this crap succeeds, it'll just be forced unto the rest of the PC world until no Windows PC runs anything outside Microsoft Store.
There are some pros to this, mainly much increased resistance to malware and such, but ugh, no no no no 1000 times more no!
Though, honestly, if Microsoft dares try that, it would be the end of them.
They could always fix the admin tools to be useful instead.
You act like this is a new issue... Regardless of the price of Windows it was a race to the bottom already on the low end
I want Windows 10S to succeed. I also want a flying car.
Neither are likely, so I'll continue to use Linux and repair my shitbox truck.
Have gnu, will travel.
Scrap it, call windows 7 professional "windows 10", and bob's your uncle. incidentally this Bob is not Microsoft Bob . It's a totally different Bob.
"If a boss demands loyalty, give him integrity. But if he demands integrity, give him loyalty." (John Boyd, 1927-1997)
I actually desperately want Windows 10S to become the ONLY version of Windows that they sell immediately.
This will remove the SINGLE reason that windows is the dominant platform - Win32 compatibility.
Then finally we can move away from the abusive homogenous ecosystem we've been wallowing in for the past 2 decades and hopefully see a resurgence of alternative platforms!
No, bad business practices should never be rewarded. End of story.
If there's 10 stores one may have a discounted price and they will have to compete against each other even on the same products.
If there's just one store then you'll simply have to accept the price that is there.
This is pure unadulterated bullshit. Should want you to shut your trap and stop writting such blatant ads for scummy strategies like this.
There are advantages to having a good Microsoft app store - which has been almost half a decade in development and never happened btw - but there are definite huge disadvantages with a fundamental philosophy gap in between.
If anything, Windows 10 S should fail hard because it's just copying the walled garden proprietary and highly profitable model to the detriment of competition and consumer choice. Windows 10 S means less alternatives to everyone, in a less open future.
Here are good reasons for Windows 10 S to succeed:
- it'll create more competition in the Chromebook and possibly smartphone category, highly doubtful because of things listed in disadvantages;
- it's an arguably more secure and curated environment for software and applications versus regular Windows 10. On this I'll agree, but not worth the sacrifices;
- it'd make it easier for Microsoft to control certain aspects of quality standards, security and whatnot over all it's ecosystem. Again, incredibly arguable given the downsides.
Here are good reasons for Windows 10 S to fail:
- we don't need another iOS/Android model as an OS. Microsoft is only copying this because they saw it's profitable, but they are losing sight fast on why people use Windows in the first place. If you want this shit to work, just use an Android tablet or an iPad to work, see how it goes;
- this allows for Windows to go even further in the whole telemetry/forced ads/shady upgrade tactics and whatnot. They've been going forward aggressively with this kind of exploitive tactic since Windows 10 came out, and they'll definitely do it even more if they can lock people into a highly controled and proprietary ecosystem. Want some proof? Look up for articles saying how Microsoft is going to lock up people on Windows 10 S with Edge and Bing as defaults that cannot be changed. Look up on how much you can opt-out of telemetry on Windows 10. Remember how Microsoft got sued because of Internet Explorer and MSN? Yep;
- the Windows app store, which began back half a decade ago in Windows Mobile, never caught up, and despite repetitive reassurances from Microsoft that it would work one day, it still doesn't and that isn't a great sign. Just take a look at it now if you are on Windows 10. The promisses that it would work and would be a better experience than regular software has been around since the release of Windows Phone 7, and it's been all bullshit. Don't look only what apps are in the store - install them and compare with regular software counterparts. You will quickly realize that most of them are lacking in features, filled with bugs, rarely updated if not outright abandoned, and ultimately an incomparable experience when put up against regular software or even web app/plugin counterparts;
- Microsoft already tried this, again, with Windows Phone which failed, and with Surface RT which also failed. The complaints that users had with those will just transfer to Windows 10 S. It wasn't a lack of investment, that the OS wasn't solid enough, or some other technical reason - devs don't like the whole deal for very good reasons, and it's been plenty obvious since then that having Windows as is works better;
- this whole thing only helps obscuring even further what Microsoft does behind the scenes, not only with their own stuff, but also what they'll demand from devs that want to put their apps into the store. No matter how much of an Apple or Android fanboy you are, I'm pretty sure that everyone will admit that the app store is not a great model for finding great apps, and the Windows store is no different in that aspect. People have no voice on what will be elected to be put in the front of the store, small devs have no opportunity to rise to prominence, discoverability goes down the gutter, and big businesses are more able to leverage their power to shut down useful applications and cheaper alternatives. Dev
If your assumption is that current Home users would suddenly have S one day,
I wasn't trying to imply that PCs that already shipped would be switched to S. But S would replace Home in the OEM product line, and new pre-built PCs priced for home use, including laptops, would ship with S.
I read all about Windows 10S and it's pretty easy to call it exactly what it is. Shitware.
I read that entire editorial, but could not find his actual argument for why Windows users should want 10S to succeed. The closest thing I could find was "if it succeeds, then there will be more App store apps". Which is fine if you want an app store, I suppose, but is entirely meaningless and without value for those of us who have less than zero interest in such a thing.
I don't see how the success of 10S has the potential of improving my Windows experience, but I do see numerous ways that it has the potential to degrade it.
Also, on Android you can install software without the use of an app store at all.