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FSF Sees Hopeful Signs Before Sunday's 'Day Against DRM' (defectivebydesign.org)

The Free Software Foundation's anti-DRM initiative "Defective By Design" argues that since last year's annual Day Against DRM, "we've seen cracks appearing in the foundation of the DRM status quo." The companies that profit from Digital Restrictions Management are still trying to expand the system of law and technology that weakens our security and curtails our rights, in an effort to prop up their exploitative business models. But since the last International Day Against DRM, the TPP trade agreement -- a key pro-DRM initiative -- crashed and burned. And our allies at the Electronic Frontier Foundation brought major legal and regulatory challenges against DRM in Washington DC... If we play our cards right, this may be the beginning of the end of DRM.

On Sunday, July 9, 2017, we will channel this momentum into the International Day Against DRM. We'll be gathering, protesting, and making -- showing the world that we insist on a future without Digital Restrictions Management. Will you join us? Here's what you can do now:

They're asking supporters to plan a protest, translate their fliers into more languages, voice support in videos and blog posts, or make endorsements. And you can also join the "DRM Elimination crew" mailing list or their Freenode IRC channel #dbd for year-round conversation and collaboration with the anti-DRM movement -- or simply make a donation to show your support.

124 comments

  1. Propaganda in the summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whether you believe it's a misnomer or not, DRM usually refers to "digital rights management" instead of "digital restrictions management" like what's in the summary. The summary reads like propaganda and is full of rhetoric. Slashdot used to actually be a news site, hence the former motto of news for nerds, stuff that matters. Now, it's run by terrible editors and spews propaganda. Slashdot loses credibility with nonsense like that. The management and editors are doing a wonderful job of running this site into the ground.

    1. Re: Propaganda in the summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is correct though.
      They use language that's intentionally deceptive to fool people and lawmakers, and the FSF just fights back.
      DRM manages restrictions. So it's fine to call it that.

    2. Re:Propaganda in the summary by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Whether you believe it's a misnomer or not, DRM usually refers to "digital rights management" instead of "digital restrictions management" like what's in the summary. The summary reads like propaganda and is full of rhetoric. Slashdot used to actually be a news site, hence the former motto of news for nerds, stuff that matters. Now, it's run by terrible editors and spews propaganda. Slashdot loses credibility with nonsense like that. The management and editors are doing a wonderful job of running this site into the ground.

      Maybe we should have a 'Day against Slashdot clickbait' and not post to any clickbait headlines (which is running about 90% now)

    3. Re:Propaganda in the summary by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Whether you believe it's a misnomer or not, DRM usually refers to "digital rights management" instead of "digital restrictions management" like what's in the summary.

      I would argue that it is usually meant to stand for "digital rights management" but that it does actually refer to digital restrictions management. Once it gets to the user, DRM does not manage rights; indeed, it interferes with actual rights, like fair use. That is why DRM is best referred to as "digital restrictions management".

      Slashdot used to actually be a news site

      You must be new here. That's never been true. Slashdot has always been a discussion site, and has never been a news site.

      hence the former motto of news for nerds, stuff that matters. Now, it's run by terrible editors and spews propaganda.

      You must be new here, it has always been run by terrible editors and it has always spewed propaganda. What's different today is all the apologists like you who love sucking corporate cock.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Propaganda in the summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go fuck yourself.

    5. Re:Propaganda in the summary by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Rights are already managed by dead tree editions of laws in my country and several dedicated institutions; anything that DRM adds is restrictions, not rights.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    6. Re:Propaganda in the summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I would argue that it is usually meant to stand for "digital rights management" but that it does actually refer to digital restrictions management. Once it gets to the user, DRM does not manage rights; indeed, it interferes with actual rights, like fair use. That is why DRM is best referred to as "digital restrictions management"."

      Indeed, calling it Digital Restrictions Management is simply calling it WHAT IT IS. The corporate world know this as well, but they also know damned well that they need more PC explanations to fool the general public.

      This is why, when they realized what people were calling "DRM" they tried to "abolish" those evil ways and created a "new" system to protect the data which they called DCE "Digital Consumer Enablement".

      That catchphrase didn't catch on like they wanted since it was immediately pointed out it was the exact same thing - and worse for them it explicitly pointed out that the encryption was in fact hindering consumers rather than "enabling" anything.

    7. Re: Propaganda in the summary by someoneOtherThanMe · · Score: 1

      DRM manages, that is, lessens, the rights. Think "weight management", "anger management", "crisis management" etc.

    8. Re:Propaganda in the summary by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Whether you believe it's a misnomer or not, DRM usually refers to "digital rights management" instead of "digital restrictions management" like what's in the summary. The summary reads like propaganda and is full of rhetoric. Slashdot used to actually be a news site, hence the former motto of news for nerds, stuff that matters. Now, it's run by terrible editors and spews propaganda. Slashdot loses credibility with nonsense like that. The management and editors are doing a wonderful job of running this site into the ground.

      To be fair to EditorDavid, the 'digital restrictions management' was from the cited passage, and not something that he himself inserted. It's been one of those acronyms deliberately distorted by RMS (Really Mean Socialist?) to suit his screed

      I agree that Slashdot has been losing credibility for a while now w/ too many stories on politics or climate, rather than sticking to computer technology. But last couple of days have been an improvement, w/ discussions like Intel's IoT business, OpenBSD unique kernels, Stream ripping, today Multics and now this story.

    9. Re: Propaganda in the summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Restrictions" is a far more accurate word than "Rights"

        The only propaganda is comming from the companies using "DRM"

    10. Re:Propaganda in the summary by Trogre · · Score: 1

      *applause*

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  2. More delusion... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... DRM has already won through mass stupidity. The rise of league of legends and "matckmaking" multiplayer services on console games and rebranding drm as "MMO" has already pushed DRM to extreme lenghts where game software is already held hostage on the other side of the net. Microtransactions, loot boxes, etc.

    1. Re:More delusion... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't forget Steam. PC gamers loves them some DRM.

      Console gamers too.

      You don't want DRM, then buy DRM-free games of which there are plenty. You want DRM, then keep supporting it in the marketplace. People keep choosing the latter.

    2. Re:More delusion... by tepples · · Score: 1

      You don't want DRM, then buy DRM-free games of which there are plenty.

      Are there plenty of DRM-free video games designed to be enjoyed on the big screen in the living room with one to three IRL friends holding gamepads? Or does "DRM-free local multiplayer" mean going back to tabletop games?

    3. Re:More delusion... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      More precisely, is there a company or game player like Xbox that is DRM free? First that would have to exist, and they'd have to make enough money just selling games and players so that they don't require DRM.

      Incidentally, does Steam fall within DRM? Like I play Civ VI on my laptop, but if I had a Steam player, or played it under PlaywithBSD, would I have to buy it again? From what I understand, that single purchase would work on any Steam console that I was logged into, regardless of where I played.

    4. Re:More delusion... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First that would have to exist

      Well, it used to! Consoles were DRM free for years and years. You had to buy the games cartridges of course, but that's not DRM, and that's only fair. There were no technical measures in place to harden the machine against its owner as there are with today's consoles.

    5. Re:More delusion... by tepples · · Score: 1

      Consoles were DRM free for years and years. [...] There were no technical measures in place to harden the machine against its owner as there are with today's consoles.

      I'm not sure which consoles you're talking about, but the NES, Super NES, and Nintendo 64 have a CIC (Checking Integrated Circuit) designed to block use of homemade cartridges. The GameCube, Wii, and Wii U have a custom drivechip designed to block use of homemade discs.

    6. Re:More delusion... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think older consoles. Atari 2600's, Maganavoxes, etc. None of the consoles of that era took any technical measures to block homemade cartridges.

      The industry switched because users bent over and took it. They didn't have to. If they had not bought any DRM machines, I guaran-fucking-tee you that consoles vendors would have sold DRM-free consoles faster than you can imagine. Losing your company's revenue stream has a wonderfully focusing effect like that.

      Gamer's didn't care though. Hence there are no more DRM-free consoles, at least any major ones.

      There is still DRM-free PC gaming, and plenty of it.

    7. Re:More delusion... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Think older consoles. Atari 2600's, Maganavoxes, etc. None of the consoles of that era took any technical measures to block homemade cartridges.

      No, but that decision on subsequent consoles had to have come straight out of atari vs. intellivision...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  3. FUCK DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SHITTING OF INDIA 2 CELEBRATE

  4. "Digital Restrictions Management" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, you have NO RIGHT to steel other peoples property. That's why YOUR RIGHTS need to be managed by content owners because you won't do it yourself.

  5. Re:I'll be there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm with you, bro! Those fascists will rue the day they messed with our library books! It'll be a BLOODBATH!!!!

  6. Exploit isn't a three letter word. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The companies that profit from Digital Restrictions Management are still trying to expand the system of law and technology that weakens our security and curtails our rights, in an effort to prop up their exploitative business models.

    Everyone exploits everyone else. Our bosses exploit us, and we exploit them by walking out with office supplies, and extended lunch hours, and using company equipment for personal use. We exploit the government by not declaring stuff we should, and being less than forthright when filling out forms. We exploit family by asking for free help, from law, to medical, and even computers. We exploit our neighbors by borrowing things and not reciprocating.

  7. OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 0

    OK, so can we also stop complaining when people refer to copyright infringement as fraud or theft, and start prosecuting it as a criminal offence rather than treating it as a civil matter? After all, it typically does have the overall effect of permanently removing compensation from a legitimate rightsholder for the benefit of the infringer, and you can only dress it up as "they might not have bought it anyway" or "the rightsholder didn't actually lose anything" if you're willing to completely ignore economics while discussing a concept that exists precisely to apply something like the economic incentives of physical works to creative works as well.

    Also, can everyone who refers to all DRM as defective by design please confirm that they have never rented anything in their lives, nor bought a one-off ticket to visit somewhere or to see something? Because while applying DRM on works you're supplying as a permanent purchase is one thing, some form of restriction is necessary in practice for any business model that works on a less permanent basis. Far from being exploitative, those business models have been some of the most successful of the Internet age at both providing sustainable revenues for producers and providing more, cheaper and more easily accessible content to consumers.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After all, it typically does have the overall effect of permanently removing compensation from a legitimate rightsholder for the benefit of the infringer, [...]

      Citation needed.

      [...] some form of restriction is necessary in practice for any business model that works on a less permanent basis.

      Obviously false. We have libraries for more than 2 kiloyears and they never needed DRM.

    2. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Citation needed.

      No, it really isn't. This is just basic logic. For example, if everyone did as the infringers do, taking a copy of a work without paying for it, would the creators receive any compensation at all, never mind more than they would have received if everyone just paid directly?

      We have libraries for more than 2 kiloyears and they never needed DRM.

      And how many of those libraries could buy one copy of a work and then provide infinite copies simultaneously for all of their visitors to keep? Indeed, how many bought works at all? How many works did they even have, and how many libraries were there?

      When it took a skilled artist thousands of hours to produce a single duplicate copy of a book, everything was copy-protected, yet somehow society and culture survived.

      When the only way to fund such work was patronage of one kind or another, the creation, reproduction and distribution of substantial works was a viable profession for only a few people, and far less work was created, and it was enjoyed by far fewer people.

      If you want to have a reasonable debate about the merits or otherwise of copyright in the 21st century, it's helpful to talk about the economics and society of the 21st century as well.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    3. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      OK, so can we also stop complaining when people refer to copyright infringement as fraud or theft

      Copyright infringement isn't theft, nothing was stolen. It's not fraud, unless you present it as something it's not.

      Because while applying DRM on works you're supplying as a permanent purchase is one thing, some form of restriction is necessary in practice for any business model that works on a less permanent basis.

      DRM does nothing at all to prevent copying of visual/audible art by those that wish to copy. Thus it is defective by design.

      Far from being exploitative, those business models have been some of the most successful of the Internet age at both providing sustainable revenues for producers and providing more, cheaper and more easily accessible content to consumers.

      Since DRM fails at its core stated purpose, I'd say there's something else afoot in providing for that revenue. In music, especially, we have demonstrable proof in iTunes, Amazon, etc, that no DRM has actually caused increased legal sales. In gog, we have proof that people will pay for software with no DRM. So I'd say it's only a matter of time until the rest of the industry finally lets go of this archaic and anti-customer concept and just provide a product people will pay for.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    4. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      For example, if everyone did as the infringers do, taking a copy of a work without paying for it, would the creators receive any compensation at all, never mind more than they would have received if everyone just paid directly?

      Answer the first: Your logical fallacy is that of the ridiculous example, because everyone doesn't do that.

      Answer the second: Even if they did, then people would have to get paid through other means, like touring. That has long been the only way most musicians actually make any money, because of the way contracts have worked.

      When it took a skilled artist thousands of hours to produce a single duplicate copy of a book, everything was copy-protected, yet somehow society and culture survived.

      When it took a skilled artist thousands of hours to produce a single duplicate copy of a book, nothing was copy-protected. The first known law involving the right to copy books was at Alexandria. The law was that if you brought a book through the harbor, you had to let them copy it, so that the knowledge could be shared with others.

      When the only way to fund such work was patronage of one kind or another, the creation, reproduction and distribution of substantial works was a viable profession for only a few people, and far less work was created, and it was enjoyed by far fewer people.

      Today, work can be funded in a broad variety of means, including crowdsourcing, advertising, direct sales, public performance for hire, public performance for donations, absolutely gratis since the costs have come down so much and so many more people have the necessary skills... Which is why even if we had no copyright law, there would still be content created.

      If you want to have a reasonable debate about the merits or otherwise of copyright in the 21st century, it's helpful to talk about the economics and society of the 21st century as well.

      This is abuse. Arguments are down the hall.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by tepples · · Score: 1

      if everyone did as the infringers do, taking a copy of a work without paying for it, would the creators receive any compensation at all

      If new copies of a work are not available through legitimate channels, what compensation is the work's author losing? Examples include the film Song of the South and the English dub of the TV series Spartakus and the Sun Beneath the Sea.

    6. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Copyright infringement isn't theft, nothing was stolen.

      Of course it was. The economic effect is literally no different to paying for a work legally, enjoying that work as allowed by the deal, but then stealing that money back from the person who provided it to you.

      The fact that in the copyright case the money never changed hands in the first place doesn't change the fact that one side is honouring the deal while the other side is not. If you hired someone to provide a service, say cleaning your house or insuring your car against theft, but then refused to pay after the service had been provided as agreed, no-one would seriously claim that was OK because nothing had really been lost by the person who provided the service.

      Since DRM fails at its core stated purpose, I'd say there's something else afoot in providing for that revenue.

      This is a common argument, but it's easily defeated. DRM is very effective at limiting casual infringement, and that is already a huge win for content creators in the modern digital world.

      In music, especially, we have demonstrable proof in iTunes, Amazon, etc, that no DRM has actually caused increased legal sales.

      What proof? Correlation does not imply causation, and I've never seen anything that would go beyond showing a correlation here.

      Even even if we did have such proof, selling popular music online has the almost unique property that you can often do it profitably while still charging only a very small amount for each copy, if you can then make up the overall revenue on volume. Unfortunately, very few other kinds of work enjoy the same financial advantage. Popular fiction might, and maybe a few other cases, but it doesn't work so well for either works with very high production costs (big budget movies, large software applications, etc.) or relatively small markets (niche music interests, academic textbooks, etc.).

      Otherwise, for every GOG where you've got a significant number of people who might go out of their way to support DRM-free products, there is a Steam that shows most people just don't care as long as the DRM doesn't get in the way too much, and one of these has much, much more content available than the other. As someone who does buy DRM-free works and is willing to pay a fair price for them, this saddens me, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm clearly in a minority on this one.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    7. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Also, can everyone who refers to all DRM as defective by design please confirm that they have never rented anything in their lives, nor bought a one-off ticket to visit somewhere or to see something?

      Until recently, most tickets' only DRM-like feature was difficult-to-forge authentication features like a holographic ribbon. Now they are all the way up to bar (or grid) codes which are authenticated against a centralized database, wow! Rental of most things other than media involves no DRM. Those things are not protected by technological features, because those technological features would impair their function, potentially precisely at the time you want to use them most. You know, just like DRM on media. Instead, those things are protected by law. If you don't return them, there is a financial interest in pursuing you, because you are doing harm to society.

      On the other hand, people who copy a piece of media can actually increase its value, by increasing its popularity. That's why the copyright debate is still happening. Copyright infringement is fundamentally different from theft, which is why it is an entirely separate and distinct body of law. Pretending otherwise is only done to serve a particular agenda.

      Since copyright is a legal right and not a natural right (even to people who actually believe in natural rights) the question is whether society would derive more benefit from not having copyright than it does from having it. Scientists will still want to do science, musicians will still want to make music, authors will still want to write books. And since this argument is really only possible since humans have enough time to kick back and create content, it's an ideal one to have in conjunction with what we're all going to do with our time in the imminent post-work future.

      The question is often asked, what will everyone do if you hand them a MGI? Won't they just sit around baitin' and watching Ow! My Balls! until their toes fall off? That's only what happens if we continue to fail at public education. Aren't we better than that? Teaching is yet another profession that becomes a lot more viable in a world with a MGI, and students would certainly benefit from reduced class sizes. Better-educated students means you can have more media even if it has to be crowdsourced, or you have to pry yourself out of your bubble and go see some live music.

      Far from being exploitative, those business models have been some of the most successful of the Internet age at both providing sustainable revenues for producers and providing more, cheaper and more easily accessible content to consumers.

      They can be both things at once. The music industry has certainly distributed a lot of music to a lot of people, but it also has exploited a lot of artists who never got paid much at all for their labors, which is what you're arguing for, right? The movie industry makes big movies that it's currently difficult to imagine being made any other way (though only because it hasn't been done yet) consistently plays funny games with economics so that it doesn't have to pay its fair tax burden. These entrenched powers which were enabled and whose influence was created by copyright law, and which have consistently tampered with the intent of copyright law — through means like DRM, which interferes with fair use and endless extensions of copyright law, which pervert the entire contract with the people implied by copyright law in the first place — are the very picture of exploitative.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by tepples · · Score: 1

      Your logical fallacy is that of the ridiculous example, because everyone doesn't do that.

      Reductio ad absurdum is not a fallacy unless it involves a straw man. Could you elaborate on where you found a straw man?

      Even if they did, then people would have to get paid through other means, like touring.

      Not all work is in media and genres that can be performed live. How would "touring" support a video game? Or a movie? Or studio-produced music that can't be readily performed live, such as the second half of The Beatles' discography? Even in the case of a work that can be performed live, touring really only supports the performers, not the authors who wrote the work that the performer performs, such as playwrights and songwriters.

      Today, work can be funded in a broad variety of means, including crowdsourcing

      Crowdfunding's success stories are still two orders of magnitude smaller than the over 200 million dollar budget of a blockbuster motion picture.

      direct sales

      Direct sales before production are called "crowdfunding," for which see above. Direct sales after production are subject to the free rider problem, whose traditional solution is called "copyright."

      public performance for hire, public performance for donations

      Provided the work is in a performable medium. See above.

    9. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by tepples · · Score: 1

      The economic effect is literally no different to paying for a work legally, enjoying that work as allowed by the deal, but then stealing that money back from the person who provided it to you.

      In the case of things that aren't available from its author at all, such as out-of-print works or the rights to make a fan-made derivative work, how much is "that money"?

    10. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      OK, so can we also stop complaining when people refer to copyright infringement as fraud or theft, and start prosecuting it as a criminal offence rather than treating it as a civil matter?

      How is that related? Furthermore, how is that even valid? Whether it's a criminal or civil matter is defined in the laws of the respective countries. Your /.er opinion has zero impact on what it actually is in each individual case, so there's zero point in making blanket statements like yours.

      Also, can everyone who refers to all DRM as defective by design please confirm that they have never rented anything in their lives, nor bought a one-off ticket to visit somewhere or to see something?

      And how is *that* related to authored works?

      Far from being exploitative, those business models have been some of the most successful of the Internet age at both providing sustainable revenues for producers and providing more, cheaper and more easily accessible content to consumers.

      You mean the way in which Netflix provides like one sixth of its catalog in my country, but for the same US price?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    11. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      OK, so can we also stop complaining when people refer to copyright infringement as fraud or theft,

      No, because it isn't.

      and start prosecuting it as a criminal offence rather than treating it as a civil matter?

      We already have. Assuming you're American: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      After all, it typically does have the overall effect of permanently removing compensation from a legitimate rightsholder for the benefit of the infringer,

      No it doesn't. In the case of criminal copyright, where people are selling knock-offs and getting the revenue that would have gone to the holder, then yes it's entirely fair to argue that it is permanently depriving them of compensation. In that case it has things in common with theft and fraud and is prosecuted criminally in a similar way.

      It's incorrect to argue that the teenager with $10,000 "worth" of movies squirreled away on his hard disk is guilty of anything akin to fraud because there has not been anything in the way of misrepresentation. It's also facile to argue that said teen deprived a company of more money then he's earned in his entire life. There are no possible circumstances under which the studio would have got the money from the teenager equivalent to the full price of all of the films.

      Without reference to whether it's right or wrong to pirate, it's certainly wrong to argue that the company has lost money which never existed.

      Also, can everyone who refers to all DRM as defective by design please confirm that they have never rented anything in their lives, nor bought a one-off ticket to visit somewhere or to see something?

      No, of course not. That's a silly thing to ask. I also don't see why it's relevant and your arguments don't fit the bill even slightly. The argument "you once went to a concert therefore you should have to re-watch all the ads on your DVD" is utterly facile.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    12. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Your logical fallacy is that of the ridiculous example, because everyone doesn't do that.

      There is nothing logically fallacious about a reductio ad absurdum argument.

      Even if they did, then people would have to get paid through other means, like touring.

      And how does an orchestral music composer make their money by touring? An independent game developer? The artist who drew the illustrations for that game's web site? A textbook author? That textbook's editorial team? The thousands of people who contribute to a summer blockbuster movie but aren't the famous lead actors, producers and directors?

      The entire point of copyright is that it's an economic instrument. It produces commercial incentives to create and distribute new works, and those commercial incentives allow for paying all the other people who do the behind the scenes jobs necessary for that creation and distribution to happen. You can't just replace entire creative industries and the millions who work in them with a few famous headline acts and charging admission.

      Today, work can be funded in a broad variety of means, including crowdsourcing, advertising, direct sales, public performance for hire, public performance for donations, absolutely gratis since the costs have come down so much and so many more people have the necessary skills... Which is why even if we had no copyright law, there would still be content created.

      Unfortunately, none of those alternative methods has yet proven to be anything like as effective at supporting the creation and distribution of new works as the copyright model. That is why, if we had no copyright law and nothing better to replace it, less content would be created and overall the content would be of lower quality.

      I'm not saying content creation would suddenly stop without copyright; obviously that's not true. I'm not saying there's no way we could ever have a better system. I'm just saying we haven't figured one out yet, on the evidence so far, and in the meantime copyright (and by extension, reasonable mechanisms for enforcing it, just like any other legal right) does appear to be relatively effective at what it's supposed to do: incentivize the creation and distribution of more and better works.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    13. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      In those cases, maybe nothing. But let's be honest, most infringement of DRM-protected works is not that situation at all. The vast majority of online infringement is copying works that are recent and readily available via at least one legal channel.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    14. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      No, it really isn't. This is just basic logic. For example, if everyone did as the infringers do, taking a copy of a work without paying for it, would the creators receive any compensation at all

      I guess it is basic logic that if a thing that doesn't happen happens then something else that doesn't happen might happen as a result.

      I mean sure, but so what? If unicorns invaded and started shitting candy everywhere then the diabetes problem would get worse. EVERYBODY PANIC.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    15. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by tepples · · Score: 1

      if we had no copyright law and nothing better to replace it, less content would be created and overall the content would be of lower quality.

      Perhaps something "better to replace" three-generation copyright would involve a shorter copyright term and/or broader compulsory licensing. Otherwise, how does the legal power to ban the creation of fan-made derivative works decades later encourage the creation of a work now?

    16. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is absolutely defective. DRM is the greedy response of a frantic industry desperate to wrest control away from you, at your expense.

      When you buy certain classes of things -- like a game -- you expect to have access to it at your leisure, on your schedule and have faith that it will be available when you choose.. Imagine if everyone's Monopoly board went blank because Milton-Bradley went out of business? or simply decided to stop "supporting it" ? What if they decided you can only play their new WEB-BASED Monopoly from now on? You will pay monthly of course.

      You think its fair exchange for people to invest in products that can disappear in the middle of the night? on some corporate whim?

      Because they will absolutely disappear. That is the entire reason for pushing DRM, and all the financial whining is just a convenient vehicle for the agenda.

    17. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of online infringement is copying works that are recent and readily available via at least one legal channel.

      If it's DRM encumbered enough then it's not readily available, kinda by definition. I have a shitty internet connection by EU standards, though there are people with worse. It's bad enough that for example streaming video is more or less unwatchably bad.

      Without DRM, I'd simply buy a video, download it as a file and watch it, just as I do with music. Instead, I buy DVDs (technically they have DRM, but it's so broken it's as if they don't) from the local second hand place and watch them. That way the copyright holders never see a penny of what I spend, and all because they're so paranoid that I might pirate something after paying for it that they'd rather I didn't get it from them in the first place.

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    18. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by tepples · · Score: 1

      If new copies of a work are not available through legitimate channels, what compensation is the work's author losing?

      In those cases, maybe nothing.

      Then why isn't the copyright statute written to acknowledge that the copyright owner is losing "maybe nothing"?

      But let's be honest, most infringement of DRM-protected works is not that situation at all.

      Even if the majority of violating acts are clearly harmful, if there are an identifiable minority of violating acts that aren't provably harmful, it's still unjust to ban them.

      The vast majority of online infringement is copying works that are recent and readily available via at least one legal channel.

      What's the "at least one legal channel" for, say, the rights to make fan-made mashups of popular recorded music as a comment on the similarity of their compositions? And why is it just to continue to ban trade in the minority of works that lack "at least one legal channel"?

    19. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Until recently, most tickets' only DRM-like feature was difficult-to-forge authentication features like a holographic ribbon. Now they are all the way up to bar (or grid) codes which are authenticated against a centralized database, wow! Rental of most things other than media involves no DRM.

      Sorry, perhaps my point wasn't clear. The point I was trying to make was that alternative models to just purchasing everything permanently can be useful for all parties involved. Renting lets someone enjoy a work they might only want to see once while saving money relatively to a permanent purchase, for example.

      On the other hand, people who copy a piece of media can actually increase its value, by increasing its popularity.

      This is just a pyramid scheme argument. Hey, buddy, if you let me have the work you spent time and money creating for free, I'll tell all my friends, so they can have it for free as well! You'll be rich in no time!

      Copyright infringement is fundamentally different from theft, which is why it is an entirely separate and distinct body of law.

      It's really not that fundamentally different. As I pointed out elsewhere, it's directly equivalent economically to paying for legal access to a work, enjoying it per the agreed deal, and then stealing the money back from the person who provided the work.

      It's a convenient rationalisation to say that no money changed hands or would ever necessarily have changed hands, but that's no better than arguing that it's OK to hire someone to provide a service but then refusing to pay for it afterwards.

      Whether you equate this with theft or fraud therefore depends on your perspective, but the idea that copyright infringement is some sort of victimless crime or has no economic impact just doesn't stand up. One way or another, you are ripping someone off by not honouring your side of the deal, and in any commercial situation, that results in a financial loss to the person who did honour their side.

      Since copyright is a legal right and not a natural right (even to people who actually believe in natural rights) the question is whether society would derive more benefit from not having copyright than it does from having it.

      Agreed. Copyright is an economic tool to advance the true goal, which is people enjoying more and better creative works. But until we have a better system -- and while it's certainly possible that one day we will, I see little evidence that we have found one so far -- copyright remains a useful tool for that purpose, and like any legal right it only works if people play by the rules, voluntarily or otherwise.

      The music industry has certainly distributed a lot of music to a lot of people, but it also has exploited a lot of artists who never got paid much at all for their labors, which is what you're arguing for, right? The movie industry makes big movies that it's currently difficult to imagine being made any other way (though only because it hasn't been done yet) consistently plays funny games with economics so that it doesn't have to pay its fair tax burden.

      Surely we all condemn those exploitative actions? But this is clouding the issue. Those funny money accounting practices aren't dependent on how the exploiter acquired its money in the first place.

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    20. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I addressed this point in response to your earlier comment. Orphan works and the like are fair points, but the vast majority of cases where infringement and DRM are relevant issues don't fall into those edge cases.

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    21. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      The point is that alternative models to permanent purchases are both viable and useful for all parties involved. You mentioned Netflix, and yes, Netflix is better value in some countries that others. But the fact remains that if I want to enjoy binge-watching a TV show on Netflix today, I can do so from the comfort of my own home, in return for a small fee per month. A few years ago, enjoying the same content at the same rate would have meant going into town, renting one tape/disc with probably 2-4 episodes at a time from the rental store for a night or two, assuming that no-one else had already hired the one I wanted that night so it wasn't available, and still paying more than half of my entire monthly Netflix fee for each tape/disc.

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    22. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm not American, but in any case, where copyright is a criminal offence throughout the world it is typically only for large-scale commercial infringement that any public authority would intervene.

      It's incorrect to argue that the teenager with $10,000 "worth" of movies squirreled away on his hard disk is guilty of anything akin to fraud because there has not been anything in the way of misrepresentation. It's also facile to argue that said teen deprived a company of more money then he's earned in his entire life. There are no possible circumstances under which the studio would have got the money from the teenager equivalent to the full price of all of the films.

      If that same kid walked into a car showroom and drove off with a new vehicle that they couldn't possibly have paid for, no-one would say the showroom hadn't lost out because it was never going to make that money anyway.

      If that kid hired a world class DJ to play at their birthday party but then at the end of the night said sorry but they haven't earned the DJ's appearance fee in their entire lives and they can't pay up, no-one would say the DJ hadn't lost out because they hadn't left any physical goods behind and they never really had any chance of getting the money.

      Copyright is an economic tool. It works by establishing economic incentives to do things we consider useful to society, specifically creating and distributing more and better works. If you just ignore the side of the deal where someone actually pays the asking price for their copy, the whole system fails. The kid who doesn't have the money might not represent a lost sale right now, but that doesn't mean it's OK to just take something you can't afford. Our entire economic system would collapse if that behaviour was accepted more generally.

      Without reference to whether it's right or wrong to pirate, it's certainly wrong to argue that the company has lost money which never existed.

      So, they've only lost all the money the kid did have but didn't pay plus the money the kid could have earned in the future and paid then?

      I'd like a nice, big house to throw parties in, but right now I can't afford one where I want to live. So, I have an incentive to work hard and save up, and then in the future maybe I do get to buy what I want. That's how life works.

      I also don't see why it's relevant and your arguments don't fit the bill even slightly.

      The point is that there are more ways to distribute creative works than just selling permanent copies, and sometimes the economics work out better for everyone in the cheaper but more restricted cases. But that only works if the cheaper cases actually are restricted in some enforceable way, so people can't just rent something for a fraction of the full purchase price but then keep it forever anyway.

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    23. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      It's called reductio ad absurdum. The point is to take an argument to its logical conclusion, and show that if that conclusion is obviously silly then the argument doesn't work.

      You can argue that if a single person didn't purchase a work but instead enjoyed it via an illegal copy, no money was lost. Maybe they told their friends and resulted in some extra sales. Maybe they could never have afforded it anyway. There are plenty of rationalisations that get thrown around if you only consider a single case in isolation.

      But you can't argue that if everyone did that then the system would still work, and so if you look at the big picture, necessarily people who break the rules must be causing harm to some degree, because collectively they are responsible for the creator losing out on all their money.

      Where the harm falls is not determined by this thought experiment. Maybe it's the creator losing out. Maybe the work remains commercially viable but only because everyone who does pay honestly is picking up the slack and therefore paying a higher price than what the market rate should be for the work if everyone was contributing their fair share. But someone is necessarily losing out as a result of the freeloaders' actions. The infringement cannot be a "victimless crime".

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    24. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by murdocj · · Score: 1

      Dang, I just had a bunch of mod points and they are gone, wish I could mod parent up. Very well said.

    25. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      This is why I carefully wrote "and nothing better to replace it".

      I'm in no way attached to today's copyright system as some sort of global maximum for how well we can incentivize the ultimate end goal of producing more and better works. I think the practical implementations today have many problems, for both producers and consumers, and in particular I have no more time than probably most people here do for the corruption of the basic principle that Big Media lobbyists have achieved in recent times, including the forever-minus-one-day extensions. (Compulsory licensing is a more difficult question. In theory it might be a good thing, but in practice I am wary of requiring anyone to surrender the control they have of their work by law without also providing real enforcement of their rights at government expense.)

      If there were a better system to support those who were doing the work to create new things we can all enjoy, I would be the first to support it. I just don't think we've found one yet, and in the meantime, I have little time for those who exploit the current system at the expense of those who create the works they enjoy and/or those who do pay honestly to support them.

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    26. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because while applying DRM on works you're supplying as a permanent purchase is one thing

      That's a pretty big "one thing" to gloss over however.

      The basic logic and facts of the matter still remain, if you use DRM, the work by definition in the highest law of the land, is that the work is not under any copyright protection in the first place.

      Copyright protection comes with a cost, like it or not. That cost is after a limited time, that work belongs to everyone.
      Yes nearly everyone seems to have a different idea about what "limited" should actually mean, but its indisputable that "unlimited" is simply not an option.

      Using DRM is announcing to everyone that you have exactly zero intention to pay for your desired copyright protection. The government is not in any way authorized to grant copyright protection over such a work, as DRM provides no way to be limited in time.

      So all the arguing over copyright law covering a DRM protected work goes right out the window.
      Those laws don't apply to it what so ever, and thus those laws can not be broken when speaking about the DRM protected work.

      That means claiming the creator of the work will or won't be compensated doesn't matter, since they are not entitled by law to any compensation.
      It would be like arguing that pirating my DRM protected work somehow violates home ownership laws. There's no point in debating the home ownership laws since they just do not apply.

      And yes you can find plenty of case law illegally claiming I am wrong. But it is nothing more than that. No judge has any authority to apply copyright laws to a work that by definition would gain unlimited protection, any more than a judge would have authority to criminalize women voting.

    27. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Then why isn't the copyright statute written to acknowledge that the copyright owner is losing "maybe nothing"?

      In some places, it is. As a civil matter, in many jurisdictions a rightsholder could only sue for actual damages, and in the kinds of situation you're talking about there either wouldn't be anyone with standing to sue or the actual damages would be zero anyway.

      Even if the majority of violating acts are clearly harmful, if there are an identifiable minority of violating acts that aren't provably harmful, it's still unjust to ban them.

      Unfortunately, it's not practical for a functioning legal system to work on such an absolute basis.

      For example, as a driver I have an above average level of training and experience, I drive a well-maintained vehicle with above average performance, and I have an excellent record of safe driving over many years. Should my judgement therefore supersede statutory limits about speeds, passing stop signs or red lights, etc? In isolation, that would probably do little if any harm, but looking at the system as a whole, setting reasonable hard limits also does me relatively little harm while providing clear, unambiguous guidance to everyone about what the rules are, which is also a valuable result.

      What's the "at least one legal channel" for, say, the rights to make fan-made mashups of popular recorded music as a comment on the similarity of their compositions?

      Maybe there isn't one, at least not without doing some work. But surely you're not suggesting this sort of activity is more than a tiny fraction of copying that gets done?

      It's also worth pointing out that in most places in the world, there isn't a generic fair use mechanism as there is in the US, and instead the permitted acts of copying or related uses of protected works are specifically enumerated (and, in some cases, mechanisms for enabling those acts are also specifically provided).

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    28. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I have a shitty internet connection by EU standards, though there are people with worse. It's bad enough that for example streaming video is more or less unwatchably bad.

      You also can't watch a film if you don't have a screen. You have to buy a device that can show the film to enjoy it. That doesn't mean the distributor has to give you free admission to your local theatre instead, though. I think you're confusing two quite separate issues here.

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    29. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all, I do pay for the content that I want, if the price is reasonable. If I think the price is unreasonable, I do without that content. DRM is supposed to stop copyright infringement. All DRM really does is hurt legitimate purchasers of content, making it difficult if not impossible to exercise fair use, and preventing purchasers from format shifting their purchased content so that they can enjoy that content as they choose.

      DRM does not stop the largest copyright infringers, it doesn't even slow them down significantly. And as far as copyright is concerned, the length of copyright has been extended so far beyond reason it is hard to find the words for how stupidly it has been extended again and again and again! Copyrights (and patents) need to expire after 5 years, with absolutely no extensions allowed, and applied retroactively to all content over 5 years old! Everything over 5 years old belongs in the public domain forever.

      If someone purchases a copy of a song, book or ebook, TV show or movie, that copy should belong to that person, just as if it were a printed book. It should be theirs to use, loan out, or destroy as they choose. They should be able yo invite friends to watch or listen with them, as long as it is not a performance for the general public that admission is being charged for. The purchaser should also have the same responsibility as with a printed book, not to sell or give away copies of their purchased content.

      What the MPAA/RIAA/Publishers really want is to be paid every time a TV show or movie is watched, a song is listened to,or a book or ebook is read. I am not talking about any sort of public performance, but just a person reading a book or ebook, or a family listening to music or watching a TV show or movie in the privacy of their own home!

      DRM is universally bad! It needs to go away forever!! And yes, some of us do put up with certain forms of DRM, its almost impossible not to have to unless you never want to read an ebook or watch a TV show or movie!

    30. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Because they will absolutely disappear. That is the entire reason for pushing DRM, and all the financial whining is just a convenient vehicle for the agenda.

      No, it isn't, no matter how much people keep repeating it or ignoring the more reasonable applications of the same technology. One significant benefit of DRM is that it enables financial models other than outright purchase, which can be in the interests of all parties to the deal. Another benefit is that it can be quite effective at deterring casual infringement by the many people who simply don't understand the rules or know what they're even supposed to pay for. There's nothing morally wrong with either of those applications, and they don't necessarily harm any legitimate customers. Neither has anything to do with some bogeyman being able to switch something off after you already paid for a permanent copy, which I would agree is not a fair system and should be challenged.

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    31. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by tepples · · Score: 1

      As a civil matter, in many jurisdictions a rightsholder could only sue for actual damages, and in the kinds of situation you're talking about there either wouldn't be anyone with standing to sue or the actual damages would be zero anyway.

      In Slashdot's home country, the copyright owner has standing to sue for statutory damages.

      For example, as a driver I have an above average level of training and experience, I drive a well-maintained vehicle with above average performance, and I have an excellent record of safe driving over many years. Should my judgement therefore supersede statutory limits about speeds, passing stop signs or red lights, etc?

      I was thinking more along the lines of traffic statutes in some U.S. states that allow cyclists waiting at a red traffic signal to treat the red traffic signal as a stop sign after having waited two minutes. States put this sort of law into place because it's cheaper than upgrading all demand-actuated approaches to reliably recognize bicycles while reliably rejecting false detections in the adjacent lane.

      What's the "at least one legal channel" for, say, the rights to make fan-made mashups of popular recorded music as a comment on the similarity of their compositions?

      Maybe there isn't one, at least not without doing some work. But surely you're not suggesting this sort of activity is more than a tiny fraction of copying that gets done?

      It's perhaps "a tiny fraction of copying that gets done" in an absolute sense. But fan mash-ups are a substantial fraction of videos that I fail to view on YouTube because they have been taken down on a notice of claimed infringement.

    32. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Like various other posters today, your argument seems to assume the only way anyone ever legally acquires creative content is through a permanent purchase. In that situation, I agree that DRM is much less relevant. But there are a lot of other financial models for distributing creative content, and some form of restriction is the only way you stop the temporary ones like pay-per-view or subscription libraries turning into the same thing as a purchase but without actually paying for it.

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    33. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Copyright infringement isn't theft, nothing was stolen.

      Of course it was. The economic effect is literally no different to paying for a work legally, enjoying that work as allowed by the deal, but then stealing that money back from the person who provided it to you.

      I'm not sure you understand what copyright infringement is nor its effects. Original law was all based on originators (authors) not having their works "stolen" by publishing houses (yes, even then they were unscrupulous) and having copies printed and sold without the author's consent nor compensating the author. Note this still wasn't theft. Heavy civil penalties might actually have made the punishment worse than other crimes, however, and for the time, large scale copyright infringement of even hundreds of copies could easily bankrupt a business and its owners.

      Copyright law also protected the author from people effectively stealing their creative works (characters and story environments) and creating their own works from those (derivative works) significantly lowering their effort and riding on another's success. Copyright infringement of this type is what the law was originally combatting, not an individual creating their own copy for personal use, say copying a map for use on a boat while retaining the original at home.

      Both of those cases effectively combatted others profiting from an originator's work. Copyright infringement today, I buy a blu-ray and copy it, legally I've committed copyright infringement if I chose a specific manner specified as illegal. However, no theft occurred, nor did the originator lose money. Now, I rent a disk and view it and return the disk. Is that denying the originator money? You can argue it both ways, and I know the MPAA wanted to remove that ability but hasn't figured out a way that consumers would accept. Hypothetically, I copy that rented disk and watch it later. Same scenario logically, only an extra step. It's now considered illegal and denying the originator money? Nope. If renting and watching is not denying the originator money, neither is renting, ripping and watching it later. Same scenario goes for borrowing a disk. This is 100% legal, and also something the MPAA would love to halt. Note that VOD actually is a consumer accepted version of both these end goals. Now, are those posting to torrent sites and the like breaking copyright law? I'd say yes, even in terms of the original 1790 act, because you are in fact publishing and/or vending works. Are the sites themselves breaking copyright law? No more or less than any other forum or medium that allows people to publish things as a start, but other activities may color it negatively. For instance, a torrent site that tracks multiple Linux distros is obviously not in violation. Someone posts the latest hit song. I'd argue the site is still not in violation. (DMCA states it needs a takedown mechanism, and if it institutes one, then its obviously in compliance)

      These scenarios are why a lot of people believe copyright law as it stands today is completely broken and in contravention of its original intent.

      Since DRM fails at its core stated purpose, I'd say there's something else afoot in providing for that revenue.

      This is a common argument, but it's easily defeated. DRM is very effective at limiting casual infringement, and that is already a huge win for content creators in the modern digital world.

      Casual copying of video and audio is so trivial, it doesn't even register as an obstacle. Audio was so trivial no one semi-intelligent even tries to DRM it anymore. Video DRM is completely broken, and always will be. The same non DMCA violating approach works for 4K (AACS2) as it does for regular HD video because, in the end, something has to signal the underlying system of pixel generating hardware. Now, I'll agree that that approach isn't commonly trivial, but 4K's AACS2 was already reportedly cracked b

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    34. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      In Slashdot's home country, the copyright owner has standing to sue for statutory damages.

      The US is anomalous in this respect, and I think many of us would agree that the US legal system allows far too much exploitation of copyrights when it isn't necessarily justified. Put another way, the problem here isn't the fundamental principle of copyright, it's the nature of the US legal system and its current implementation of that principle.

      Even in the US system, my understanding is that someone has to have standing to bring a lawsuit for those statutory damages. In peripheral cases like orphan works, it's still not a problem.

      I'm sure there must be other edge cases that slip through the net where someone might reasonably want access to a work and have no reasonable legal channel to get them right now, but again, I think we're talking about a tiny fraction of all copying that would infringe existing copyright laws here. While acknowledging the legitimacy of the complaint, I think it's also quite a detour from the main question of whether using DRM as a counter to widespread, actually infringing behaviour.

      But fan mash-ups are a substantial fraction of videos that I fail to view on YouTube because they have been taken down on a notice of claimed infringement.

      To be fair on that point, in most places they probably are infringing. Again, the US is anomalous in this respect, and indeed it has been frequently criticised for failing to meet its international obligations under the various IP treaties because of the relatively broad fair use provisions at home while simultaneously trying to export its aggressive/punitive penalty regime abroad.

      I'm not sure what the best/most practical solution to this one is. There's a legitimate grievance in some sense, but any realistic way forward would also need to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

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    35. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I'd also like you to address the case of "Happy Birthday" which, by all rights, should have been in the public domain possibly as far back as 1900, but certainly no later than 1924 given that the music appears to have existed prior to 1875 and the lyrics were certainly in existence no later than 1893 and were published as a unit no later than 1911. Shouldn't Warner Bros (the recently removed claimant) be punished for the decades of false ownership claims?

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    36. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One significant benefit

      And that's it. Exactly one case. Outside of pay-per-view/listen streams, what "mutual benefit" exists? Its strange how you assert this as a benefit on everyone's behalf.

      Another benefit is that it can be quite effective at deterring casual infringement

      That's not "in the interests of all parties". It benefits only the company, and the measures enacted come at the people's expense. Especially so for legitimate paying customers since they are being punished/thwarted for a vague, ill-defined minority of bad actors. Talk about a 'bogeyman'.

      DRM is purely a measure to maintain control of a resource after its thieving implementors have been paid, for the sole purpose of extorting more money so they can "shuffle the herd" at will. You have a scant handful of examples that might be 'mutally beneficial'. DRM is like ultrapoison that you can spray into a larger system, and then leverage criminal law to prevent analysis. It's beyond disgusting.
       

    37. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Please note that nowhere have I either supported or condoned extending the duration of copyright protection to the kinds of multi-lifetime silliness we see today, nor the games sometimes played around using derivative works as a vehicle for extending protections not otherwise granted. I'm as against these kinds of abuses as the next Slashdotter.

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    38. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      And that's it. Exactly one case.

      That one cases covers any rental or similar model, everything from PPV sporting events to binge-watching your favourite comedy show on Netflix via a playlist of the latest hits you enjoy from Spotify. It's hardly an insignificant market. I don't have useful stats to hand, but it may well cover the majority of new content consumption by now. Netflix alone represents a pretty substantial fraction of all Internet traffic today.

      That's not "in the interests of all parties". It benefits only the company, and the measures enacted come at the people's expense. Especially so for legitimate paying customers since they are being punished/thwarted for a vague, ill-defined minority of bad actors.

      Those legitimate paying customers you are so keen to protect may well be the ones footing the bill for the freeloaders. Reducing the market size will tend to increase the market price for the product. Someone is going to lose out if a lot of people don't pay their fair share, and it's going to be either the content creators/distributors, or the customers who do pay, or probably some combination of the two.

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    39. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I buy DVDs from the local second hand place and watch them. That way the copyright holders never see a penny of what I spend

      Yes they do. The existence of a 2nd-hand market supports a higher 1st sale price. I will pay more for a new DVD or book if I know I can resell it to get some of that money back.

    40. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I'm not American

      My mistake, but similar laws exist in many places. We have them in the UK too.

      where copyright is a criminal offence throughout the world it is typically only for large-scale commercial infringement that any public authority would intervene

      I don't think there's a minimum threshold for personal gain. But then again the police aren't going to follow up tiny cases in the same way they often don't follow up low level petty theft.

      If that same kid walked into a car showroom and drove off

      Irrelevant: the show room can't sell that car to someone else since they no longer have it. That is not the case for downloading a movie.

      If that kid hired a world class DJ to play at their birthday party but then at the end

      Irrelevant: the DJ lost out because that's time he could have sold to someone else. This is not the case for downloading a movie. There's also a breach of contract element too, which is irrelevant since the kid in question has signed no contrct with the distributor.

      I'm not arguing the merits for or against copyright here, but I think your arguments currently lack merit. You have given examples where someone deprives someone else of a valuable physical item or time, neither of which can be duplicated. They loose out because they can't sell that to anyone else now. that's a poor comparison to a teen downloading a movie since that act doesn't hinder them from selling it to someone else.

      Copyright is an economic tool.

      Can you try to stick to the topic please? Whether copyright infringement is equivalent to theft or fraud has little to do with it's usefulness as an economic tool.

      doesn't mean it's OK

      I didn't claim it was. I am however disputing your claim that it's theft and fraud. It's not murder or DUI either.

      So, they've only lost all the money the kid did have but didn't pay plus the money the kid could have earned in the future and paid then?

      No, of course not, and I think you're intentionally trying to misunderstand me here. You are the one who equated it to a lost sale not me. I pointed out a very obvious and extreme flaw. At this juncture you should concede that my point was sound and yours unsound, or dispute the point I made. Switching to a different point makes it sound like you can't dispute it.

      I'd like a nice, big house to throw parties in

      so? that dsill doesn't necessarily make copying a movie equivalent to fraud and theft.

      You seem to be quite invested in the idea that copyright is a good thing. I'm not actually disputing that. What I am disputing is your equating of infringement and theft. They are different things which have different names because they are not the same. You are not going to convince me they're the same by telling me how wonderful the principle of copyright is because that is completely besides the point.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    41. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It's called reductio ad absurdum.

      Actually no, I think it was more slippery slope than reductio ad absurdum. Slippery slope is't a logical fallacy per-se, but it's not necessarily always valid either.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    42. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      The existence of a 2nd-hand market supports a higher 1st sale price. I will pay more for a new DVD or book if I know I can resell it to get some of that money back.

      I'm not sure I agree. The second hand resale value is pretty pitiful: the shop charges a *lot* more than they pay me for it since they're a shop with costs. And whe the DVD costs 50p at the conuter, there's not much to spread around. Besides, I don't ever sell on DVDs, I give them away to the local charity shop.

      There are cases where resale value matters, especially for expensive things like houses and cars. I'd be interested to see if it has a significnat difference on something around the cost of DVDs.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    43. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You also can't watch a film if you don't have a screen. You have to buy a device that can show the film to enjoy it. That doesn't mean the distributor has to give you free admission to your local theatre instead, though. I think you're confusing two quite separate issues here.

      You need to stop getting emotionally invested and read what you wrote and my replies. Seriously.

      You claimed it was readily available. It's not all that readily available. Buying a screen is a vastly different proposition from selling my house and moving to somewhere with a better internet connection. There are in fact many millions of people wit hinternet connections as bad or significantly worse than mine. So, it is not as you claimed readily available to me.

      Now read the part where I said I go and buy them second hand. Do you see how that is not me advocatig piracy?

      You seem to be of the opinion that if anyone disagrees with you then they are advocating piracy. That is not the case. I think your arguments are very poor, but that doesn't mean I support the opposite conslusion.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    44. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm not arguing the merits for or against copyright here, but I think your arguments currently lack merit. You have given examples where someone deprives someone else of a valuable physical item or time, neither of which can be duplicated.

      It's not hard to find examples that don't have that immediate deprivation element. Can someone take out holiday insurance, go enjoy a holiday when in fact nothing bad happens, and then refuse to pay the bill? Of course not, no insurer would provide insurance without charging up front, and no insurer would refund the premium after the fact if no claim was made and so the insurance was "unnecessary". Whether or not the insurer could still have offered coverage to other customers during the same period makes no difference to this.

      In any case, creative work still has a deprivation aspect, it's just that the economics are different. With creative work, you typically have a high up-front cost for doing the creative part, and then low marginal costs for supplying the finished work. Copyright is useful because it allows amortization of that high cost among a relatively large number of contributors. That entire principle breaks if some of the contributors don't contribute.

      Perhaps a better analogy to explain this idea would be paying a good speaker thousands for a relatively short talk at a corporate event. You mostly aren't paying for their time and presence on the day, the part that is necessary and can't be replicated. You're really paying a little bit for their time on the day, and the rest for all the experience and preparation that went into making that talk worthwhile.

      that's a poor comparison to a teen downloading a movie since that act doesn't hinder them from selling it to someone else.

      In isolation, no. But if everyone is allowed to do the same thing -- which seems only fair -- then it stops them from selling it at all, and that is permanently depriving them of the money to which they were legally entitled in return for others having access to their work. We're talking about markets and economics here. You can't just single out one person, remove their contribution, and say it doesn't really make any difference. You have to look at what happens if everyone follows the same rules, and what happens in this situation is statistically indistinguishable from some combination of theft and fraud: money that should have been in the creator's bank account at the end of the day isn't. Whether you choose to view it as stealing the money or as obtaining the benefit deceitfully because someone never intended to pay in return is rather an academic distinction at this point.

      You are the one who equated it to a lost sale not me.

      I'm not equating it to a lost sale. I'm assuming a general principle of everyone being subject to the same rules as everyone else in law, and claiming that under such a principle the behaviour you're condoning results in all sales being lost when taken to its logical conclusion. Since that is obviously not sustainable or a reasonable interpretation of the purpose of copyright law, your position must mean that someone is taking advantage of someone else and effectively putting the culprit above the law, and I see no ethical or practical justification for such special treatment.

      In short, if everyone is equal and that includes being free to ignore copyright and not pay for works they obtain, the practical consequence is that the creators of those works don't get paid what they are due under the law in return for sharing their work. That means either someone stole their money, or someone obtained their work without intending to pay for it: theft or fraud. Everything else here appears to be either irrelevant to these fundamental details or a plea for special treatment where not all people are equal under the law and not everyone has the same rights and obligations as anyone else.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    45. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if yor going to be honest no one gets 150 years to sit back and be lazy and not have to do shit either.....

      if your going to be really honest lets just say your removal of all this wealth ahs added to other sectors like ISPS gouging , rents and costs of living are so high now that the corporate people are now not even pretending to be nice about there intentions of making copyrights last forever instead of a short period where you the artist get a few bucks to keep going

      ergo 2012 the tax evasion bank 33.1 trillion stolen from us....the people while you all force us into debt of 40.1 trillion world wide...when we all have more of a balance things will work right....

      if a few corporations hold all the patents and copyright no one without stupid cost can do anyhitng and society begins to stagnate and the corporations begin paying less and less as they try and move to unexploited regions to then begin this whole rape of culture again.

      if you really want to be honest drop copyrights to 15 years which is massive time for computer games and software....make it 20 for a movie and 10 for tv which is fleeting.....you will then see people invest and make derivitives and when quality goes up people feel more like paying

      ALSO that 33.1 trillion ....gee wonder where and whom it all came from better ask yourselves why movies that bring in hundreds a millions and cost tens of millions lose money

      as long as we are also being honest if im on disability and a fixed income why would you seek to prosecute me for downloading somehting i like and bragging how good it is free adverting to those that might be able to afford it.....

      a free mason once said the sign of a civilized man is his ability to have compassion and forgiveness....HOLLY WOOD HAS NONE
      and deserves none.

      there that's me frickin being honest.

      want to know why people are cord cutting cable ? cause all there is in charge now are the IP lawyers and they dont need to be creative just force the same crap out over and over again.

    46. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      It is readily available to the public via streaming, just not to you for reasons that are hardly the supplier's fault. Obviously the entire world does not revolve around the convenience of one specific customer, and I think it's unreasonable to expect suppliers to open themselves up to potentially significant losses just to avoid inconveniencing you. As you point out yourself, you do have other legal channels available to obtain the work.

      I've never said you were advocating piracy anywhere, nor do I have this deep emotional connection to this issue that for some reason you keep mentioning. My point here remains a very simple one: copyright infringement is both morally and practically indistinguishable from some combination of theft and fraud.

      My argument also remains very simple: if we assume everyone is equal and they all infringe in the same way, the ultimate result is that the creator has provided their work, yet has no compensation for it.

      I see only two possible variations if the equality assumption is fair. One is that people take the work offered in return for payment, but don't actually intend to pay, which is fraud. The second is that the creator was effectively paid but then had the money was somehow taken back, which would be theft. The financial consequence is the same either way.

      Otherwise, the original assumption of equality is unsound, and in fact some people receiving the work are given special treatment where they are not required to pay like everyone else. Of course, this is not in the spirit of either fairness or everyone being seen the same in the eyes of the law. In any case, it still inevitably means the creator is receiving less income than they should have and/or those who do pay for the work are paying more than they should need to in order to make up the difference. Someone is still losing out for the benefit of the person who gets the work but doesn't pay, compared to the situation where everyone obeys the law.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    47. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      After all, it typically does have the overall effect of permanently removing compensation from a legitimate rightsholder for the benefit of the infringer, and you can only dress it up as "they might not have bought it anyway" or "the rightsholder didn't actually lose anything" if you're willing to completely ignore economics while discussing a concept that exists precisely to apply something like the economic incentives of physical works to creative works as well.

      Except most of us have first-hand knowledge that the RIAA/MPAA/BSA line of reasoning that a copy is the same as a lost sale is blatantly false. I remember swapping MP3 collections with friends and on LAN parties and whatnot, many thousands of imaginary dollars changing hands. I had a full copy of AutoCAD that cost many thousands of dollars alone just to play around with. Even if I had dedicated 100% of my allowance towards paying for bits and bytes it would be fractions of a cent on the dollar. We didn't have any internal economy, I copied from you and you copied from me and it was always for free so just grab whatever you got disk space for and delete what you don't need later. A lot of it you just checked out once or not at all like listening to a few songs from an artist before you deleted it all.

      Which is not to say it didn't have some value. Today I subscribe to Spotify, I imagine if it had existed back then I'd probably nag my parents into giving me a subscription as part of my allowance. But $10/month is something else entirely that the imaginary sums thrown around, we were not super-villains causing billions and trillions of dollars in losses. Those sums never existed anywhere but on back-of-a-napkin calculations from the music industry, trying to create an outrage that was so far off the deep end people actually started waving the pirate flag in defense of TPB. It was like if you want the death penalty for jaywalking or speeding we'd rather abolish those laws than let you go nuts on teens with bootleg music.

      Fortunately saner heads found a middle road with streaming, I know many users still aren't happy with that. The music industry is still not happy. The artists are also not particularly happy. But if everyone is somewhat unhappy you've probably found a good middle ground. Oh and about DRM on streaming, that stuff is still available on YouTube/torrents so if it works now I'd say it'd work tomorrow too without DRM because the DRM is actually not working very well. Much like when iTunes lost their FairPlay DRM the effects were mostly imaginary, the world didn't collapse when it went away. Neither would the TV/Movie market.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    48. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Except most of us have first-hand knowledge that the RIAA/MPAA/BSA line of reasoning that a copy is the same as a lost sale is blatantly false.

      Claiming that all copies are equivalent to the same number of lost sales is obviously false. Some people couldn't afford to buy in the first place.

      But to be fair, claiming that none or only a few of those copies are equivalent to lost sales is similarly absurd. There are plenty of people who copy because they can get away with it but who could perfectly well have paid the asking price if they'd had to or could have saved up to buy a legit copy later.

      Oh and about DRM on streaming, that stuff is still available on YouTube/torrents so if it works now I'd say it'd work tomorrow too without DRM because the DRM is actually not working very well.

      This is one of the interesting parts of the debate, to me. Neither extreme position is realistic in terms of copies vs. lost sales, but how many sales do you actually lose without DRM, both directly through someone not paying you as much themselves, and indirectly if they then share what they've ripped further or even set up some sort of copycat site.

      My suspicion is that for larger organisations, with mainstream content popular enough that finding a rip soon after release is easy for those who know how, all of the major costs can be modelled quite accurately as percentages of the overall budget for the work. DRM delays rips by X amount saving Y% of the revenues that would otherwise be lost because people buy before the crack is out. Piracy once the DRM is broken costs Z% of real sales that would otherwise be made. About R% of those losses can cost-effectively be recovered afterwards through enforcement action in court against major offenders, but it will cost L% for the legal costs. And so on.

      For niche or high value works with smaller markets, I wonder whether the economics change, though. With any compound effect, it's much cheaper to act early, and so in a smaller market, it actually is conceivable that you can keep the situation contained to the point that someone can't just find a rip of your stuff easily. For high value works, it may also be worth spending real money to take real legal action against any known infringer and not just against major sources or copycats. Moreover, in smaller markets, the effects of doing these things may actually make a difference to commercial viability for the work as a whole.

      Unfortunately, there's relatively little published data to go on here, since obviously most IP rightsholders keep their cards close to their chest.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    49. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      But to be fair, claiming that none or only a few of those copies are equivalent to lost sales is similarly absurd.

      Claiming none would be absurd. Claiming that only a tiny minority of them are equivalent to lost sales is definitely true.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    50. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, people who copy a piece of media can actually increase its value, by increasing its popularity.

      This is just a pyramid scheme argument. Hey, buddy, if you let me have the work you spent time and money creating for free, I'll tell all my friends, so they can have it for free as well! You'll be rich in no time!

      It's nothing like a pyramid scheme and it has nothing to do with friends. Every person who drives down the street listening to your music increases your cachet, and increases the number of people who want to come to your shows and give you money, go to record stores and buy your product, etc. This is not conjecture, it is a fact, and there is research on the subject. Stop pretending I made it up, that's ignorant at best, and more likely disingenuous fuckery.

      It's a convenient rationalisation to say that no money changed hands or would ever necessarily have changed hands, but that's no better than arguing that it's OK to hire someone to provide a service but then refusing to pay for it afterwards.

      That is a stupid argument only made by stupid people. It is obviously different, because I did not agree to pay them for a service, and I can copy it an infinite number of times without it costing them any more. If you hire someone to provide a service, they can't do anything else while they're providing you the service, which constitutes a theft of their time. That's why we actually call that theft, i.e. theft of services. Since someone is being deprived of something, we can call it theft. This is so obvious that you have to understand it, so I don't understand why you're being a disingenuous douchebag on behalf of the copyright cartel.

      Copyright is an economic tool to advance the true goal, which is people enjoying more and better creative works.

      Copyright as we know it today was invented for the purpose of generating tax revenue.

      Surely we all condemn those exploitative actions? But this is clouding the issue. Those funny money accounting practices aren't dependent on how the exploiter acquired its money in the first place.

      They then go on to spend the funny money lobbying for longer copyright terms. But as time goes by, culture actually accelerates. We should have shorter and shorter copyright terms, not longer and longer ones. They have broken the contract, and there is no reason any longer to respect copyright law.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    51. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I have a shitty internet connection by EU standards, though there are people with worse. It's bad enough that for example streaming video is more or less unwatchably bad.

      You also can't watch a film if you don't have a screen. You have to buy a device that can show the film to enjoy it. That doesn't mean the distributor has to give you free admission to your local theatre instead, though. I think you're confusing two quite separate issues here.

      You're the one who wants to blather about the purpose of copyright supposedly being so that more people can enjoy more works (which is revisionist, history-ignoring bullshit but anyway) and now you're being presented with a clear-cut example of DRM being used to back up copyright law so intensely that it actually prevents that, and you make glib excuses to justify your shitty, oppressive, corporate whore worldview instead of acknowledging that someone is actually being harmed by the technology that you claim is meant to help them. You're a hypocrite.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    52. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It is readily available to the public via streaming, just not to you for reasons that are hardly the supplier's fault.

      The supplier chose to use DRM. It's entirely the supplier's fault. Nobody held a gun to their head and made them do it. If you know otherwise, then let us know who it was, and then we can blame them. Until then, you're a fine example of Stockholm Syndrome as you make excuses for those who abuse you, but you're not saying anything worth listening to for any other reason.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    53. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      This is why I carefully wrote "and nothing better to replace it".

      "Nothing" would be better to replace it. It would stop copyright from interfering with rights, it would result in a shakeup of entrenched media companies which abuse the law, and it would have zero administration overhead. Nobody would be imprisoned for sharing research performed in part with public funding with the public. The FBI could stop taking any copyright cases and have more time to work on catching violent criminals.

      in the meantime, I have little time for those who exploit the current system at the expense of those who create the works they enjoy and/or those who do pay honestly to support them.

      That's why you should be opposed to the copyright cartel, which is made up of a bunch of fucks who the current system at the expense of those who create the works you enjoy, and those who do pay honestly to support them.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    54. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      There's nothing definite about it. I've been involved with various experiments on this kind of thing in a professional capacity, and if you're thinking that locking down content only boosts conversions by a couple of percent or something, you are way off the mark.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    55. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      It's nothing like a pyramid scheme and it has nothing to do with friends.

      It is exactly like a pyramid scheme. This is how networking effects work. People who don't want to pay for content tend to attract more people who don't want to pay for content. High value customers tend to attract other high value customers. "Increasing your cachet" with the former group is not just unhelpful, it's actively harmful. And unless you actually are in a market that makes a lot of money from live performances -- which actually covers remarkably little of the creative industries -- your argument about increasing the number of people who want to come to your shows doesn't make sense anyway.

      Stop pretending I made it up, that's ignorant at best, and more likely disingenuous fuckery.

      Yeah, OK. Not really interested in debating with someone who resorts to cursing and name-calling. Sorry.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    56. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The supplier chose to use DRM. It's entirely the supplier's fault. Nobody held a gun to their head and made them do it."

      Incorrect, the movie companies demanded DRM otherwise they will not allow a license. Thus as a supplier does have a gun to their head. Either they get access to material that the customer wants. Or they bet on a lesser known property that doesn't require this clause.

      So the supplier isn't at fault as they are attempting to act in faith with the market. And the market wants the materials, and the materials' owner wants DRM. Thus we have DRM.

      So please, stop using that argument.

    57. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Obviously the entire world does not revolve around the convenience of one specific customer,

      There are literally millions of people in first world countries with worse internet connections than I have. I like how you purposely ignored that and pretended that I'm literally the only person without a great connection.

      and I think it's unreasonable to expect suppliers to open themselves up to potentially significant losses just to avoid inconveniencing you.

      Your logic is that to prevent people from downloading it without paying, they should make life harder for someone who is paying, even though it's readily available from pirated sources? That makes no sense. That's the thing: these distribution companies can only have an effect on PAYING customers, and they're trying to use that mechanism to affect non paying customers.

      I've never said you were advocating piracy anywhere, nor do I have this deep emotional connection to this issue that for some reason you keep mentioning. My point here remains a very simple one: copyright infringement is both morally and practically indistinguishable from some combination of theft and fraud.

      And your point is unsound, especially the fraud one even more than the theft one. I've pointed out why it's unsound and you respond with arguments based on how creators are deprived of stuff by piracy. Those are appeals to emotion arguments, because they have nothing at all to do whether or not piracy is equivalent to fraud.

      Let me repeat one more time: you cannot convince me that piracy is fraud and theft by telling me how people can be deprived by piracy. Whether or not you are correct that people are deprived has no bearing at all on the equivalence to theft and fraud.

      A teenager getting a movie of TPB is in no way fraud because there is no element of misrepresentation. Trying to argue that it's fraud because piracy is bad mmmmkay actually weakens your argument.

      My argument also remains very simple: if we assume everyone is equal and they all infringe in the same way, the ultimate result is that the creator has provided their work, yet has no compensation for it.

      Yes, and that argument is: If something which doesn't happen happens, then something which doesn't happen as a consequence will happen.

      To which I say: so what?

      Otherwise, the original assumption of equality is unsound, and in fact some people receiving the work are given special treatment where they are not required to pay like everyone else.

      Some people receiving the work are always given special treatment. The people who get it from the pirate bay get an unencumbered, advertisement free file which they can view on any device using any media player. The people paying get none of those privileges, instead being given the special treatment of an inferior product.

      That's even more counterproductive!

      Compare that to music, which is now blissfully unencumbered MP3s. In that case the paying customers get a better product not a worse one.

      This is not in the spirit of either fairness or everyone being seen the same in the eyes of the law.

      Crimes have never been seen equal in the face of the law (maybe excepting Victorian England where it was apparently fine to execute someone for murder, nicking an apple or taking leak on a bridge pillar). Crimes which are considered "worse" in some way get stronger enforcement. That has and always will be the case.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    58. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're committing the Pretentus Latinus Testiculus, or "Pretentious Latin Bollocks" fallacy.

    59. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by G-forze · · Score: 1

      You can argue that if a single person didn't purchase a work but instead enjoyed it via an illegal copy, no money was lost. Maybe they told their friends and resulted in some extra sales. Maybe they could never have afforded it anyway. There are plenty of rationalisations that get thrown around if you only consider a single case in isolation.

      But you can't argue that if everyone did that then the system would still work, and so if you look at the big picture, necessarily people who break the rules must be causing harm to some degree, because collectively they are responsible for the creator losing out on all their money.

      By that logic, we can't have musicians. Sure, some people can be musicians, but what would happen if all people were musicians? No one would farm the food we eat, and everyone would die! Musicians must therefore be causing harm to society, and we should make being a musician illegal.

      --
      "There's someone in my head but it's not me." - Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon
    60. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by G-forze · · Score: 1

      Stop pretending I made it up, that's ignorant at best, and more likely disingenuous fuckery.

      Yeah, OK. Not really interested in debating with someone who resorts to cursing and name-calling. Sorry.

      What a convenient way to avoid answering all his valid points!

      --
      "There's someone in my head but it's not me." - Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon
    61. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      A more apt conclusion from your example would be that musicians only get to eat if someone else does the farming. Fortunately, we have the concept of currency, so people from different walks of life can contribute in different ways and recognise the value of each other's contributions.

      What you can't have is a lot of musicians who all get to take the farmers' food for free. One musician might not cause a big loss if the farmer was going to have surplus crops anyway, but one thousand musicians all taking the farmer's food without paying might be enough that the farmer can't stay in business any more, and then everyone is going to go hungry.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    62. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      by that logic me not watching a movie at all instead of pirating it would make me think what if everyone did that. it must be causing harm to some degree, because collectively they are responsible for the creator losing out on all their money. therefore not watching a movie is wrong and should be illegal.

    63. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rephrased to avoid Latin:

      Reduction to absurdity is not a fallacy unless it involves a straw man. Could you elaborate on where you found a straw man?

    64. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by tepples · · Score: 1

      The supplier chose to use DRM. It's entirely the supplier's fault. Nobody held a gun to their head and made them do it.

      Incorrect, the movie companies demanded DRM otherwise they will not allow a license.

      The supplier is "the movie companies". Who forced digital restrictions management on them?

    65. Re:OK, if we're being honest then... by tepples · · Score: 1

      A teenager getting a movie of TPB is in no way fraud because there is no element of misrepresentation.

      The uploader to TPB misrepresented that he had the right to make the movie available to the teenager under current law.

  8. Re:First Post ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh Donald, it was NEVER hard!

  9. motivation by VikingNation · · Score: 0

    Creators and producers of content should have mechanisms to protect intellectual property and secure reveneue from content. Why is this group fighting against DRM?

    1. Re:motivation by peppepz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Consumers of content should also be able to choose any lawful mechanism to enjoy the intellectual property that they've paid for, and DRM interfers with that. In particular, when it prevents fair use, which is instituted by the very same law that defines the existence of intellectual property, DRM is as illegal as unauthorized copying.

    2. Re:motivation by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Why is this group fighting against DRM?

      They've written extensively about it, what it is, why they object to it and so on. There are links in TFS, but if you're interested, you can start here:

      https://www.defectivebydesign....

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:motivation by pedz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Defective By Design

      and

      Copyrights Must Expire

      and

      Copyright Timeline

      Just to give you a start...

    4. Re:motivation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A real problem usually has multiple independent organizations campaigning for a solution. FSF has its ideological and practical reasons (can't prevent changing of the software at will), EFF has its reasons due to the specifics of the US legislation. There might be a problem in the US but the solution is hard to see, as hard as an encrypted but otherwise free over-the-air HD transmission.

    5. Re:motivation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you just answered your own question!

      Creators and producers already had something: copyright. And DRM undermines copyright by massively incentivizing piracy. The net effect is to reduce revenue. Everyone who makes money on IP is in direct conflict with DRM.

      Everywhere that you find DRM, you will find the public totally ignoring copyright, because getting stuff to Just Work right is way more important than paying for it.

    6. Re:motivation by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Why the fuck should content be protected. The law is quite clear, once that content has been proven of worth to society, it can apply for limited protection. You lying cheating scummy fuckers have been putting out all kinds of shit and demanding for ever protection at tax payer expense, fuck off. Don't want to share your content, than go find a dark room somewhere and lock you self in it with your crap content.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    7. Re:motivation by 101percent · · Score: 1

      Just look at printer ink. DRM is a racket. Also most "content creators" aren't even compensated.

  10. TPP Crashed and Burned by Kunedog · · Score: 0

    Thanks Trump.

    1. Re:TPP Crashed and Burned by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Perhaps a case of doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

    2. Re:TPP Crashed and Burned by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Almost no one or nothing is either universally good or bad. In this case, Trump managed to successfully prevent a dreadful trade agreement, or rather a trade agreement with some truly dreadful parts to it. Trump did a good thing there, but doing one good thing in a sea of bad ones doesn't make him a good president.

      It's all shades of grey and he's still right down at the "charcoal" end.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  11. It's a quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's in quote blocks, it's a quote, the quote is correct.

    To reword the FSF paragraph to something other than what they said would be FALSE.

    "it's run by terrible editors and spews propaganda"
    No, you don't like the stories, but you can always go watch Fox. Nancy Pelosi is a coke dealer in the basement of a pizza shop.... welcome to Fox News. Roger Aisles is dead but his ghost still writes the news copy. Perhaps that's more to your tastes?

    1. Re:It's a quote by tepples · · Score: 1

      It's in quote blocks, it's a quote, the quote is correct.

      As far as I can tell, Anonymous Coward #54772787 was expecting to see the more conventional expansion of the initialism at least somewhere in the summary, such as language to the following effect: "The FSF uses the term 'digital restrictions management' to refer to digital rights management."

    2. Re:It's a quote by unixisc · · Score: 1

      No, you don't like the stories, but you can always go watch Fox. Nancy Pelosi is a coke dealer in the basement of a pizza shop.... welcome to Fox News. Roger Aisles is dead but his ghost still writes the news copy. Perhaps that's more to your tastes?

      One can't have the discussions like here on Fox, unless one is watching on YouTube live and in a permanent chat mode w/ some people & some bots.

      You are right about the blockquote, but as Tepples noted, it would have been useful to see 'Digital Rights Management' - the real expansion of that acronym - spelt out somewhere in the summary. Instead, since the only expansion of DRM was provided in the cited space, anybody coming across this acronym for the first time would be left w/ the impression that DRM indeed stands for 'Digital Restrictions Management'. While that may well be what it practically is, it's certainly not what it stands for.

  12. If I started a campaign... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...most people would not understand what I am talking about.

    It does not matter whether it is Widevine CDM, HTML 5 standards, Trusted Computing or something else.

    Most people roll their eyes, when I mention freedom, privacy, and rights in the context of electronics. They often say, "Let them track me. I am not doing anything wrong." or "I need this for work." or "I don't care how it works. Just make it work." They slowly accept their freedom crumbling away.

    The general populace is not impressed by:

    -Examples where people are stopped or pulled over to have their phones searched.
    -By police raids based on incorrect information upon users of IP addresses.
    -By illegal seizures of bank accounts.
    -By texts used as courtroom evidence on a daily basis.
    -By people who are rendered unemployable, stalked, or killed over social media content.

    and many more stark examples of their rights being violated.

    While I am a true believer in Richard Stallman's wisdom, I find it disheartening to work toward compelling the ignorant masses to do what is in their own best interest. Unfortunately, many seem to be perpetually immune to common sense.

    1. Re: If I started a campaign... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best interest for the masses is an ordered society where everybody is tracked and watch themselves. If they know someone is always listening they will know to behave. This is what we all need and it's looking better every day.

  13. Video Endorsements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    voice support in videos

    My endorsement videos will all be DRM protected, thank you very much.

  14. Look at the bigger forces by pedz · · Score: 1

    More and more, folks are feeling entitled. Medical insurance is now considered a "basic right" by many whereas 100 years ago it was not.

    More and more, corporations want longer and longer copyrights with copyright term going from 14 + 14 years to 95 or 120 years.

    These two forces are on a collision course.

    The law makers assume they have the final say. But they don't.

    Laws such as the Micky Mouse Copyright law or the DMC that are not respected are weak. Enforcement of laws is mostly by self regulation. I choose to not run the red light on a deserted street at midnight out of respect of the law -- not fear of the consequences. Once the law has no respect, the self regulation disappears and the net result is a step closer to anarchy.

    Instead of DRM, DMC, and EME, the law makers might take note of the public unrest and revise downward the lifetime of copyrights to the original and sensible 14 + 14 years. The publishers would very likely see a drop in copyright infringement and a slight uptick in profits.

    Unfortunately, USA is not the only country that is doing this type of activity. And copyright law is just one area where law makers and society all across the world are progressing further and further astray from each other.

  15. Re: I'll be there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right on! Jamal will bring some guns too.

  16. It's about whitelisting screens by tepples · · Score: 1

    Then let me rephrase the DRM issue in a more germane way that excludes your example of a customer who lacks any sort of screen: "I have purchased a copy of your motion picture and want to be able to watch it on any screen I already have, not just those few screens on your whitelist."

    1. Re:It's about whitelisting screens by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      But serviscope_minor wasn't talking about purchasing a copy of the movie, they were talking about not being able to stream it from a legitimate source because of a technical limitation in their own connection that wasn't the streaming service's fault or responsibility. The work was available on a reasonable basis from a legitimate source, it's just that in this case someone didn't have the necessary equipment to benefit from that particular channel. It's not exactly practical to say that rightsholders must give up all technical protections on their works if they aren't willing to provide every work in a convenient format for every customer regardless of the work and costs involved in doing so!

      As I've mentioned in a couple of other places in the discussion today, I think there's quite a difference both ethically and practically between adding DRM on something that is intended to be a permanent sale and using DRM to enforce temporary access rights in something that was never intended or advertised to be selling a permanent copy. A streaming service is almost certainly going to be in the latter category.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re: It's about whitelisting screens by KGIII · · Score: 1

      That's he crux of the issue. You only purchased the disc. You licensed the content.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  17. TPP disn't "crash and burn" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TPP was shot doen by Trump, after he had aggressively campaigned against it.

    Why do none of these guys give Trump, and the American voter credit here? They all act like it was some mystifying yet benevolent event that passive-voice-occured.

    But it was Trump! He just boastsd about defeating it again in his weekly address, in fact.

    1. Re: TPP disn't "crash and burn" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Hillary was for TPP then TPP was good and anyone opposing it was a deplorable fascist who should be tortured to death and have his kids thrown into a furnace. #iamwithher

  18. we the people ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we the people last i checked are the ones that dictate OUR RIGHTS

    not you....and this covenant between a rights holder and me states hes to continue doing with money he gets form me NOT MAKE IT FOR 2 generations , its become a perversion of a pyramid scam where your alzy kids get to sit on there buts or we get crap star trek OR crap star wars or crap tv none of us want

    you sir need to get your lazy frickin ass out of non reality cause guess what happens boitch when all the jobs are done by robots

    NO ONE WILL HAVE MONEY FOR YOU

  19. DRM as software extortion. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DRM as software extortion.
    Or DRM as computer extortion?

  20. Stop and think for a moment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...I truly feel that freedom in all ways is going to be seen as foolish and childish idealization, and we will be living in a highly micromanaged, tightly controlled world where it
    will be practicaly to the point you will have to ask permission to use the bathroom.

    Sounds crazy? I wonder if the generation 30 years down the road will think it is, or if real freedom will be as real to them as a magic unicorn.

  21. Deliberate though, and sensibly so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you say that DRM's "real expansion" is "Digital Rights Managment" you have bought into some propaganda. It is a thing called "framing". This technology does not handle "Rights" at all. You can't show it your Fair Use rights and get it to do anything. What it actually implements is "Restrictions". So, using "Digital Restrictions Managment" is a fair and accurate term.

    Consider it counter-propaganda resisting the original propaganda. I fully support this use and would never use the original expansion in any correspondence because the term itself presupposes something that is not true. Compare it against the Patriot Act, for example. There's nothing much patriotic in there. So, why is it called the Patriot Act? Pure propaganda, of course.

    1. Re:Deliberate though, and sensibly so by unixisc · · Score: 1

      I stated what it officially stands for. Whether it actually represents that or not is open to debate, and one can accept the FSF's premise without misstating what the acronym means. As for the PATRIOT Act, PATRIOT is an acronym -Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept & Obstruct Terrorism. It's very much patriotic, unless one's loyalties are to Islam!

  22. Taking the Fifth by tepples · · Score: 1

    For this post I define "property" as "that which is subject to an exclusive right".

    Compulsory licensing is a more difficult question. In theory it might be a good thing, but in practice I am wary of requiring anyone to surrender the control they have of their work by law

    In Slashdot's home country, the owner of an exclusive right in a particular property, be it land or a work of authorship, has a Fifth Amendment right to "just compensation" for public use of the property. Constitutionally, a work can enter the eminent domain before it enters the public domain, and "control" doesn't enter into it. Once an author has been compensated enough to cover the cost of producing a work plus enough profit to cover the uncertainty of its becoming popular, what is the use of "control" anyway, other than in preventing competition?

    without also providing real enforcement of their rights at government expense.

    In Slashdot's home country, there are already criminal penalties for commercial infringement of copyright on a substantial scale.

    1. Re:Taking the Fifth by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      In Slashdot's home country, there are already criminal penalties for commercial infringement of copyright on a substantial scale.

      As there are in quite a few other places these days. Unfortunately, that does nothing to help someone whose creative work goes viral, as we apparently call it these days, with the result that it is widely yet still illegally shared among a network of friends, via social media or otherwise. It doesn't need to be commercial infringement to pull the bottom out from under the commercial market, and the original creator has just as little compensation themselves regardless of whether someone else was making money from supplying all those copies or not.

      Unless and until we have a culture that regards exploiting someone's creative work without fair compensation as socially unacceptable, or we have real enforcement of the legal rights theoretically granted to creators in return for sharing their creations, I'm not generally in favour of compelling anyone to do anything as far as sharing or distributing their work is concerned.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  23. Can't distribute handheld games without DRM by tepples · · Score: 1

    The supplier chose to use DRM. It's entirely the supplier's fault.

    How is it the supplier's fault when all relevant means of delivering a work to the public use digital restrictions management? For example, in the market of video games for handheld devices with physical buttons, both viable platforms (PlayStation Vita and Nintendo 3DS) require use of DRM. The only widely used handheld video game platform that allows DRM-free distribution is Android, which allows the user to temporarily allow installation of APK files from unknown sources. But the problem with Android as a platform is that the vast majority of devices have a touch screen as their only input device, and though a touch screen is ideal for point-and-click genres and games whose control is limited to a single jump button (such as the many SFCave clones), it's not quite so ideal for something in the vein of a run-and-gun or an Igavania.

    And in the market for high-definition movies on disc, Blu-ray Disc players will refuse to play movies without AACS.