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Alphabet's Waymo Will Test Self-Driving Cars In Snowy Detroit (bloomberg.com)

Posted by BeauHD on from the well-weathered dept.

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: Alphabet's Waymo, the vehicle arm of Google's parent, announced on Thursday that it will start testing its autonomous Chrysler minivans on roads in the greater Detroit area. Michigan will be the sixth state where Waymo has run its vehicles on public roads. But the region is the first with a winter dominated by snow and ice, the kind of inclement conditions that pose hurdles for vehicle sensors. "Having lived through fourteen Michigan winters, I'm confident that there are few better places that will prepare our self-driving cars for winter conditions," John Krafcik, Waymo's chief executive officer and a former Ford executive, said in a statement. Waymo opened a testing facility in suburban Detroit last year. The hometown automakers are already there. Ford has tested self-driving cars in the state (including some for pizza delivery). General Motors' Cruise Automation is experimenting there as well.

61 comments

  1. Well... by argStyopa · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ".... "Having lived through fourteen Michigan winters, I'm confident that there are few better places that will prepare our self-driving cars for winter conditions," ..."

    Having lived through 50 winters, I beg to differ.
    Michigan gets you snow, certainly. The staggering variety of ice, snow, and bitter cold makes driving here truly inhospitable.

    - a Minnesotan

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:Well... by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "Having lived through 50 winters, I beg to differ.
      Michigan gets you snow, certainly. The staggering variety of ice, snow, and bitter cold makes driving here truly inhospitable."

      You're right. They just want to stick it to the automobile industry on their home turf.

    2. Re:Well... by Motard · · Score: 1

      Well, when I lived in Detroit, it wasn't a matter of simply ice, snow and cold. It was all of those things on narrow urban sidestreets with cars parked on both sides and a single pair of eight inch ruts down the middle - on a two-way street.

      I'd really would like to see a computer deal with that - and the oncoming drivers.

    3. Re:Well... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Ahh, Minnesota. If I drove a thousand miles south (and crossed the Atlantic) I'd be there. This is like a UID pissing match, I wonder if we have any users from Siberia...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are lucky everyone in Winnipeg is too nice to rip on Minnesota or you would be hearing about how long your summers are, how short and warm the winters are, how well plowed, large, and infrequently under construction the roads are...

    5. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, Minnesota. If I drove a thousand miles south (and crossed the Atlantic) I'd be there. This is like a UID pissing match, I wonder if we have any users from Siberia...

      At the same latitude, the temperature in North America is far colder than Europe. That is the difference between a continental weather system and one that is warmed by the trade winds in the northeast Atlantic.

      Being a thousand miles North means nothing.

    6. Re:Well... by Motard · · Score: 1

      Being a thousand miles North means nothing.

      Well, yeah, it sorta' does.

    7. Re:Well... by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Hey, the only reason our roads are under construction less often than Winnipeg is that we poorly distribute our money to infrastructure!

    8. Re:Well... by raind · · Score: 1

      I've lived 50 Detroit winters, thanks to global warming they are not as bad as is in the past. Unless you dismiss the freak "polar vortex" events. Last 5 years or so we typically had to shovel/plow a few times a season. On the other hand storms are more powerful than usual.
      Add to that the Detroit area has some of the nations worse road conditions (MI allows insane truck weight limits) and doesn't know how to fix them apparently - I would say good luck to the self driving cars, might even be an improvement from the drivers on there fone - on the freeway (such as it is).

      --
      Get up!
    9. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A fine retort Motard. Very convincing.

      Tell us all next how climate scientists are wrong in other ways, such as global warming, or that northerly England is colder than Southern tropical Toronto.

    10. Re:Well... by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Minnesota usually gets some nice hard freezes and you can drive around on hard snow and ice.

      Southeast Michigan tends to half-thaw every afternoon and re-freeze at night. So you are driving through slush layered on top of sheets of ice and open pavement. It's the deceptive aspect of Michigan winters and our shitty beat-to-hell roads that makes the driving very challenging.

      - a Michigander

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    11. Re:Well... by Motard · · Score: 1

      A fine retort Motard. Very convincing.

      Thank you.

      Tell us all next how climate scientists are wrong in other ways, such as global warming, or that northerly England is colder than Southern tropical Toronto.

      Well, most of them think that Turkeys are the best things to eat during Thanksgiving. And that's definitely not the case. A nice rib roast is always a winner.

  2. Really? Detroit? How about somewhere in Canada? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pretty much everywhere in Canada is snowier than Detroit. Except for Vancouver. Now, if self-driving cars can handle someplace like Calgary or Quebec City, then I'll be happy to entrust my life to them.

  3. Finally, real testing? by Lije+Baley · · Score: 1

    Goodbye to straw men in straw hat weather! Or will this be on somebody's "proving grounds"?

    --
    Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
    1. Re:Finally, real testing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well you'd hope initially at least it would be on somebody's proving grounds, since you don't want a half assed implementation being beta tested on public roads.

      At least, that's the sane way to do it. Unfortunately everyone is currently beta testing their half assed implementations on public roads right now so I don't really expect that to change...

    2. Re:Finally, real testing? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      You seem a little bit to be too enthusiastic about this robot testing, plainclothesman.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:Finally, real testing? by Lije+Baley · · Score: 1

      I've changed. Originally I wanted them to build a dome over the city and make the robots pay for it. But now I understand that we need them, to help solve our crimes, and to tell us what we're thinking.

      --
      Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
  4. Yet another reason... by AdamStarks · · Score: 1

    ... not to visit Detroit.

  5. Will the cars be programmed to speed up... by hyades1 · · Score: 2

    ...when they're driving through one of "those" neighbourhoods?

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    1. Re:Will the cars be programmed to speed up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they'll drive around...

    2. Re:Will the cars be programmed to speed up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Will just roll up the windows automatically.

    3. Re:Will the cars be programmed to speed up... by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      No need, they've got lasers.

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      This space intentionally left blank
  6. It's more black ice on bridges and mountains by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    If you've ever skidded down N 70th in Greenwood of Seattle during a snowstorm, with cars parked on both sides, or gone over an overpass with 50 mph winds and black ice, or actually gone OUT of Detroit, you'll know this isn't really a test.

    It's more like the missile interception tests where we cheat and put a beacon on the warhead.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re: It's more black ice on bridges and mountains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The skidding and traction problems have already been solved in the 90's. The problems are de-icing the sensors and how the computer figures out where the road is. Not a trivial problem.

    2. Re: It's more black ice on bridges and mountains by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 0

      Which is what I was saying.

      When the snow covers both the road, the trees, the buildings, and makes GPS fry out and the temps drop so vehicles drop below "standard operating temps" (as used to happen when I was a beta tester for GPS on cars, especially when you parked it for a few hours at a ski hill), lots of fun things occur.

      Oh, and then a kid puts a snowman in the street and builds a ramp too. And slides into the street lying down on the toboggan out of sight and below observation level.

      Second you hit one of those kids it's game over for self-driving cars in that city, that county, and probably that state.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re: It's more black ice on bridges and mountains by Motard · · Score: 1

      Oh, and then a kid puts a snowman in the street and builds a ramp too. And slides into the street lying down on the toboggan out of sight and below observation level.

      There are none of those kids left in Detroit.

    4. Re: It's more black ice on bridges and mountains by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      When I was 10 I lived on Grosse Isle. Still know people there.

      There are such kids in the Greater Detroit area.

      It's not the artificial view your TV scare shows tell you it is, or at least in the area they are talking about.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    5. Re:It's more black ice on bridges and mountains by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      Of course we put beacons on the warheads. Do you have any idea how hard it is to hit a warhead that doesn't want to be hit?

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    6. Re: It's more black ice on bridges and mountains by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      "The skidding and traction problems have already been solved in the 90's."

      I live in a place that gets 80 or 90 inches (a bit over 2 meters) of snow in an average Winter. Let me assure you that skidding and traction problems still abound although the switch from RWD to FWD vehicles helped a lot. 4WD/Traction control can help in getting going. The problem is stopping. ABS performs poorly on unpaved surfaces and even worse on snow and ice. Always has, and likely always will.

      You're right about the sensors and figuring out where the road is. Figuring out where the road ends and the roadside ditch starts under a layer of snow can be non-trivial for a human familiar with the road. It's going to be a lot harder for the computers I think. GPS? -- with REALLY good maps ... and differential correction ... Maybe ... But in worst case conditions in a canyon with cliffs blocking satellites and trees attenuating signal and multipath reflections. It's not easy for people and may well be even harder for hardware.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    7. Re: It's more black ice on bridges and mountains by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      Computers do have one significant advantage over people: they're willing to drive as slow as is appropriate for the conditions.

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      This space intentionally left blank
    8. Re: It's more black ice on bridges and mountains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Computers do have one significant advantage over people: they're willing to drive as slow as is appropriate for the conditions.

      The problem here is that driving too slow in enough snow will get you stuck. I wanna see a computer figure out what the minimum speed is to keep going under those circumstances.

  7. If they crash in a building... by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    ...it would only improve the city.

  8. Everybody thinks they have it the worst by mykepredko · · Score: 2

    I don't know if there's a objective way of determining who has the worst winters.

    I never thought too much about Toronto winter weather other than it was bad until we relocated our company headquarters to another part of Ontario where they thought they had the worst weather in the northern hemisphere although it was positively mild when I compared it to what I've put up with in Toronto. They closed down schools with 4" of snow - just about anywhere else I've been (with the exception of Georgia where 0.5" of snow is seen as the coming of the apocalypse), that's nothing to get excited about.

    If I was to rate the winters in the various cities in North America I've been in over the years, I would say that Boston has the worst winters (and, yes, I have been in Michigan).

    --
    Mimetics Inc. Twitter
    1. Re:Everybody thinks they have it the worst by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      I don't know if there's a objective way of determining who has the worst winters.

      I never thought too much about Toronto winter weather other than it was bad until we relocated our company headquarters to another part of Ontario where they thought they had the worst weather in the northern hemisphere although it was positively mild when I compared it to what I've put up with in Toronto. They closed down schools with 4" of snow - just about anywhere else I've been (with the exception of Georgia where 0.5" of snow is seen as the coming of the apocalypse), that's nothing to get excited about.

      If I was to rate the winters in the various cities in North America I've been in over the years, I would say that Boston has the worst winters (and, yes, I have been in Michigan).

      I grew up in Saint John and moved to Boston. Boston has a mild winter. It's not even close to what northern Maine and New Brunswick gets. That being said, Boston can be a nightmare if a snow storm hits when no one is expecting it. But that's purely because of population density and the number of cars on the road.

    2. Re:Everybody thinks they have it the worst by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Snow tends to affect different regions in very different ways. For example, Seattle is an extremely hilly city. Combine that with the fact that snow is rather rare (meaning inexperienced drivers + no studded snow tires), and an inch or two of snow really is a big deal. Seattle also tends to be a moderate climate, which means that snow may fall, melt, and then re-freeze the next day when the temperature drops again, turning into black ice.

      When I lived in the eastern part of the state, we'd get six or twelve inches of snow at a time (or even more), and it was really not a big deal, because it was cold, dry, and didn't stick much, the cities had enough plows, and most cars were wearing studded tires. It's sort of weird how, having lived in both areas, an inch of snow in one place can be much worse in some parts of the country than six inches in others.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    3. Re:Everybody thinks they have it the worst by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Also in older cities like Duluth, MN without the means to pump tons of money into the infrastructure. A few main roads have water mains running underneath, which keeps snow from staying on them too long (or ice from really forming), but many of Duluth's hills become icy and can be extremely dangerous for cars without 4x4/AWD and proper brakes. The general right of way is given to those coming down the hill, they may not be able to stop for you.

    4. Re:Everybody thinks they have it the worst by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      Boston can indeed get a lot of snow in a single coastal storm. And sometimes those storms queue up and after a while finding a place to put the snow becomes a real problem. OTOH, it rarely get bone chillingly cold there. Cleveland, Buffalo and Rochester get lake effect snows that can pile up pretty deeply. Montreal is, AFAICS the third coldest major city on the planet after Novosibirsk and Moscow. But many smaller cities -- notably Winnipeg -- are substantially colder.

      Detroit (I've lived there) has nippy Winters and gets a bit of snow exacerbated by some of the least competent urban drivers on the planet. But it doesn't compare to any of the above for extreme Winter weather. Detroit is also flat as a pancake -- few curves, no hills -- which probably accounts for the incredibly awful handling characterstics of Detroit designed cars of the 1950s-1970s that drove people who lived in bumpier areas to buy cars made in Japan or Europe.

      Anyway, it's a reasonable place to test cars, but one needs to remember that they will be used in far more demanding situations.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
  9. It's not the snow... by XXongo · · Score: 1

    Yes, I agree. It's not the snow you want to worry about so much, it's the ice and slush and freezing rain on the roads... and the ice and slush and freezing rain that will get caked on the cameras and sensors.

    1. Re:It's not the snow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      monkeys evolved to walk, not to drive. If it is too cold - hybernate in a cave and shut up.

    2. Re:It's not the snow... by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      It's not the snow you want to worry about so much, it's the ice and slush and freezing rain on the roads...

      My parents both grew up in Canada, driving in snow. Then they moved to the US, to an area that only got snow a few times a year.

      Both always told me, that the things you need to really worry about the most, that pose the most danger . . . are the other drivers on the road, who do not know how to drive in snow.

      Many years ago, while I was on a business trip to Austin, Texas in December . . . the thermometer actually went below freezing! The local TV station set up some cameras on overpasses, because they knew what was going to happen.

      So you got this big-ass honking truck, and it starts to slide on the overpass. What do you do . . . ?

      Well, you got plenty of horsepower, so just floor it!

      The results were rather comical.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  10. Alphabet's Waymo by ickleberry · · Score: 1

    Can f*ck right off.

  11. Detroit is a ghost town by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    At least when a car crashes there's less chance of hitting someone in Detroit than in San Francisco.

    1. Re:Detroit is a ghost town by Motard · · Score: 1

      Shit. Oh well, I guess they should've asked an AC how Detroit compares to SF.

    2. Re:Detroit is a ghost town by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      Haven't been to Detroit for close to 30 years, but three decades ago, no one in Detroit walked anywhere except from the house/office/store to/from their car. The chances of hitting a pedestrian are quite likely higher in the middle of the Gobi Desert than in Detroit. Especially during a snowstorm when everyone will be huddled around the TV seeking news of when the terrible calamity will come to an end.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    3. Re:Detroit is a ghost town by Motard · · Score: 1

      Haven't been to Detroit for close to 30 years, but three decades ago, no one in Detroit walked anywhere except from the house/office/store to/from their car. The chances of hitting a pedestrian are quite likely higher in the middle of the Gobi Desert than in Detroit. Especially during a snowstorm when everyone will be huddled around the TV seeking news of when the terrible calamity will come to an end.

      Thanks for the timely critique. And for several clues that you have no idea what you're talking about. Or what you were talking about 30 years ago.

  12. That's nothing. by mykepredko · · Score: 1

    Toronto has people who think that's eight inch runts in the roads were made for them to use as a cross country ski trails.

    Seriously.

    --
    Mimetics Inc. Twitter
  13. That's nothing by mykepredko · · Score: 1

    Toronto has people who think that's eight inch ruts in the roads were made for them to use as a cross country ski trails.

    Seriously.

    --
    Mimetics Inc. Twitter
    1. Re:That's nothing by Motard · · Score: 1

      Detroit used to have people who thought that. ;)

    2. Re:That's nothing by mykepredko · · Score: 1

      In that regard, Detroit is far more civilized than Toronto.

      --
      Mimetics Inc. Twitter
  14. Wasn't watching where I was replying by mykepredko · · Score: 1

    It was the eight inch runts that pointed it out to me.

    --
    Mimetics Inc. Twitter
  15. I'll just leave these here by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'll just leave these here:

    Item 1.

    Item 2.

    1. Re:I'll just leave these here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fake.
      Look at the shadows in item 2. Not to mention where the snow ploughs would put the snow.

    2. Re:I'll just leave these here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never mind the shadows, look at that bone-dry, clean-as-a-whistle road. That is a picture of pavement that hasn't seen any kind of precipitation in at least a week.

    3. Re:I'll just leave these here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bone-dry and clear pavement. Not exactly harsh terrain for testing a self-driving vehicle.

    4. Re:I'll just leave these here by swillden · · Score: 1

      Fake. Look at the shadows in item 2. Not to mention where the snow ploughs would put the snow.

      Not fake. These are photos of the Yuki-no-Otani Snow Canyon in northern Japan. Snowfall in the area is 1200-1500 inches annually. And they don't use snow plows, they use huge snow blowers. Here's an article about it, including a picture of one of the snow blowers in operation: https://www.atlasobscura.com/a....

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  16. Detroit was picked because.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If there are fiery crashes nothing of value will be lost.

  17. Winter conditions? by PPH · · Score: 0

    What about Detroit conditions?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  18. Ice & snow makes Detroit easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least during and for the first few hours after a major storm, people actually drive like survivors (or stay home).

    Not getting harassed by everything that moves does make driving a lot more relaxing...

  19. Re:Enjoy your FAIL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see you're still upset that you didn't get your Szechuan sauce from McDonald's.

  20. Send them to, Detroit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Fist full of yen"