EPA Confirms Tesla's Model 3 Has a Range of 310 Miles (theverge.com)

Tesla's Model 3 has a confirmed range of 310 miles, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. "That figure applies to the long-range version of the Model 3, and echoes the vehicle specs released by Tesla back in July," reports The Verge. "It also makes the Model 3 one of the most efficient passenger electric vehicles on the market." From the report: The EPA's range is used as the advertised figure for electric vehicles that are sold in the US. The 310-mile range is an estimate of the number of miles the vehicle should be able to travel in combined city and highway driving from a full charge. That's 131 miles per gallon gasoline equivalent (MPGe) for city driving, 120 MPGe on the highway, and 126 MPGe combined. You'll have to pay more to get that extended range, though. Tesla said it would be selling a standard version of the Model 3, with just 220 miles of range, for $35,000. The long-range version will start at $44,000, the automaker says. Production on the standard version isn't expected to begin until 2018.

Comments

Bu bu but

[Anonymous Coward]

Bu bu but fake news told me Elon was lying!?

How could I have been such a stupid, gullible fuck?

Re:Bu bu but

[Anonymous Coward]

stupid faggot musk is a psychopath, and they lie when others can't do anything about it and bribe anyone required

Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

I don't care what the range is, until there are charging stations everywhere and a full charge happens in 10 minutes I would have range anxiety. You're totally going to say I'm being irrational, and I know I am, but it is what it is. I am just as bad with my phone,if it goes past 50% I have to plug it in.

Re:Personally I don't care

[NEDHead]

Trailer hitch & towable generator should solve the problem

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Start saving your nickels for the roadster 2. At 600 miles range, that should do. It'll be a lotta nickels, though.

(anon because I'm in the biz)

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

I don't care what the range is, until there are charging stations everywhere

They are (and rapidly expanding). And that's just superchargers - including slower ones (but still including high power DC), look here.

and a full charge happens in 10 minutes

In your everyday life (aka, the vast majority of your time), instead of 5 minutes to detour to a gas station, a full charge takes 10 seconds: 5 to plug in, 5 to unplug. In the comfort of your garage.

On long trips, it charges during meal and bathroom / stretch breaks, about 75 miles range per 10 minutes charging at below 50% SoC. Take, for example, a 700 mile trip. At 70mph that's 10 hours (not counting breaks), so two meal breaks - say, a 20 minute lunch and a 30 minute dinner. 45 minutes charging. That adds about 375 miles, meaning 685 miles. Just one or two 10 minute stretch breaks (on your 10 hour trip) and that's your entire charging.

The only thing it doesn't work for is "sprint" trips, where you're basically trying to avoid all stops, eating in the car, minimizing all bathroom and rest breaks. And if you're the sort of person who does that... don't. Seriously, stop it; that's dangerous, not just to you, but to other drivers.

I would have range anxiety

A belief only held by people who've never owned an EV. Because 1) supercharging rates aren't slow; 2) you can extend range significantly just by slowing down, at any point in time (unlike ICE vehicles, EVs increase in range down to around 20-25mph), and 3) in the absolute worst case (which almost never happens), you can ask to charge virtually anywhere. Farmhouse in the middle of nowhere? Ranger station deep in a national park? You name it. And the answer in practice is almost always yes.

Re: Personally I don't care

[PoopJuggler]

So you don't care if the range is 1,000,000 miles?

Re:Personally I don't care

[interkin3tic]

"I'm being irrational but I don't care" +1 insightful

If it's that type of party, I irrationally think wolves are creeping up behind me every time I walk to my car in the dark.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds pretty inefficient. Better to go with a "long-range" hybrid like a Volt: 53 miles on a full charge, 380 miles on a full charge and tank of gas. Never a problem with needing to find a charging state: any gas station will work.

"... the combined city/highway fuel economy in all-electric mode to 106 MPG-e" so 20 MPG-e less than a Tesla, but without the charge-station anxiety.

In fact, a "long-range" hybrid will see more all-electric mileage than "low-end" all-electric vehicles. No doubt because the driver isn't afraid of running out of battery power and can just keep driving and thus going on longer ranged trips:
"A 2014 analysis conducted by the Idaho National Laboratory using a sample of 21,600 all-electric cars and plug-in hybrids, found that Volt owners traveled on average 9,112 miles in all-electric mode (e-miles) per year, while Leaf owners traveled 9,697 e-miles per year, despite the Volt's shorter all-electric range, about half of the Leaf's"

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

unlike ICE vehicles, EVs increase in range down to around 20-25mph
 
Are you really trying to use this as a selling point?
 
Look, I understand, most naysayers are just uptight assholes who are looking for any reason to not get an EV but to suggest that extending range by driving at 20-25 MPH? Seriously? Anywhere you can safely drive at those speeds are likely going to be the worst way to go on a long road trip.
 
And your claims that charging stations are everywhere is very dubious in comparison to what most people are use to as "charging stations." Please play to the reality instead of coming off like a fanboi and a hopeless shill.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

10 minutes to a full charge will never happen. You can get a fast charge on a mostly depleted battery to bring it up to around 80% or so, but past that point, trying to cram the electrons in quickly will severely damage the battery. Not the first time you do it, but over time - the degradation caused by fast charging in that last 20% is significantly greater than that caused in the first 80%, and it'll kill the lifespan of the pack.

That's the design goal of the Supercharger: to do that 80% charge quickly, so you can get on the road with sufficient stored power to get to the next charger (or to your destination.)

As for doing that 80% in ten minutes, let's run some figures. The long range battery is 75 kWh. 80% of 75 kWh is 60 kWh. You need to pump in 60 kWh of energy in ten minutes, which means you need (6*60) = 360 kW of energy going in. That means some pretty damn high voltage, and some pretty damn high current. At the moment, the Supercharger runs at 480 volts DC, so that would mean a current of 750 amps. The word "ouch" springs to mind - that is not small beans.

The current reality is 120 kW at most - meaning that you're looking at about half an hour for an 80% charge.

But let's be realistic: if you're travelling those sorts of distances, you should be taking periodic breaks from the driving anyway. So you drive up, plug the car in, go have a coffee or whatever and relax for a half hour - then resume your journey.

Short version: you're asking for something that is physically difficult to achieve, and potentially extremely dangerous. Not to mention arguably unnecessary. Charging stations needing to be everywhere, I can kind of understand (although for my use case, they'll be close enough by the time I take delivery of the Model 3), but the rest is being unrealistic.

Re:Personally I don't care

[maglor_83]

On long trips, it charges during meal and bathroom / stretch breaks, about 75 miles range per 10 minutes charging at below 50% SoC. Take, for example, a 700 mile trip. At 70mph that's 10 hours (not counting breaks), so two meal breaks - say, a 20 minute lunch and a 30 minute dinner. 45 minutes charging. That adds about 375 miles, meaning 685 miles. Just one or two 10 minute stretch breaks (on your 10 hour trip) and that's your entire charging.

That's really nice, assuming of course that there are charging stations where you want to eat/stretch.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

I would have range anxiety

unlike ICE vehicles, EVs increase in range down to around 20-25mph

Are you really trying to use this as a selling point?

Things weird about your reply.

1) You act like we're talking about normal driving, not emergencies.
2) You act like it's a bad thing to have an ability to greatly (2-3x) increase your range, something you don't have with ICE vehicles.
3) You act like you only have two options ("highway speeds" and "20mph"), rather than a continuous range curve between those points.
4) You ignore the entire rest of what you're replying to.

And your claims that charging stations are everywhere is very dubious in comparison to what most people are use to as "charging stations."
  Please play to the reality

I gave you a bloody map, what more do you want? And why are you putting "charging stations" in quotes? Superchargers are real. There are 7619 supercharger stalls operational today (aka, not counting those under construction). The average spacing along US interstates is about 70 miles (a bit more in more densely populated areas, a bit less in less densely populated ones), evenly spaced. Doubling by the end of next year. And that's just Tesla's network.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

They're about an hour apart, and constantly becoming denser.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Except the Volt is made by GM, and I like my cars to be reliable.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

10 minutes to a full charge will never happen.

Another famous prediction I disagreed with at the time it was made: "Personal computers will never have gigabytes of memory" - Scott Nudds.

I do believe it will be a while, and might involve supercaps or something instead of batteries.

Re:Personally I don't care

[larryjoe]

In your everyday life (aka, the vast majority of your time), instead of 5 minutes to detour to a gas station, a full charge takes 10 seconds: 5 to plug in, 5 to unplug. In the comfort of your garage.

... if you happen to have a garage and actually park your car inside the garage. I have a garage, but I park my car outside and would need a 50-foot cable to reach my car.

On long trips, it charges during meal and bathroom / stretch breaks, about 75 miles range per 10 minutes charging at below 50% SoC. Take, for example, a 700 mile trip. At 70mph that's 10 hours (not counting breaks), so two meal breaks - say, a 20 minute lunch and a 30 minute dinner. 45 minutes charging. That adds about 375 miles, meaning 685 miles. Just one or two 10 minute stretch breaks (on your 10 hour trip) and that's your entire charging.

... if you are willing to make sure that your route passes those charging stations, you are willing to accept the eating options at those places, and you are willing to accept the risk that there are no open spots when you arrive.

3) in the absolute worst case (which almost never happens), you can ask to charge virtually anywhere. Farmhouse in the middle of nowhere? Ranger station deep in a national park? You name it. And the answer in practice is almost always yes.

Well, if the out-of-juice car happened to stop conveniently right next to the electric plug, that's great. But that doesn't really happen with electric or gas cars. AAA trucks carry spare gas for stranded gas cars. What we need are AAA trucks with batteries to charge stranded cars ... sometime in the future.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Kjella]

I am just as bad with my phone,if it goes past 50% I have to plug it in.

Well, a smartphone can end up spending quite a bit of battery even if you're not interacting with it. Particularly if you're doing something like GPS tracking, updates, cloud sync or whatever in the background or even just a faulty app causing 100% CPU load. An EV shouldn't really lose any significant amount of power on its own except for long time storage, as I understand it there's a roughly 1%/day vampire drain but for a commute or weekend trip it should be completely negligible and if it's plugged in there's no issue. But yeah I too want to have the range that I have a plan A and a plan B if the next charger is out of order or full or the road is closed and I have to take a big detour or something. I don't think I'd ever go under 20% unless something has already gone wrong or it's the last leg home.

Re: Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

They wonâ(TM)t be happy until electric vehicles fly, cure cancer, stop child abuse, make everyone vote libertarian and go several months without a charge. I look forward to any number of those properties being added ;)

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

A hybrid is like a flying car. Neither a good plane or a good car.

There's nothing more inefficient then carrying the weight and complexity of a gas engine and transmission with you ALL THE TIME whether you need it or not.

Towing a generator may not be as efficient as driving a hybrid long range (and I even question that). But a towing trailer might only be needed once or twice a year, or less (never for most drivers). The rest of the time it's not being dragged around as dead weight.

It doesn't even need to be a generator. It could be nothing more than an extended battery on wheels. When electric vehicles take off you'll probably be able to rent them pre-charged for the less than the equivalent cost of gas.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

(anon because I'm in the biz)

What biz is that? The obvious biz? And how would being in "the biz" be impacted by what you wrote?

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a garage, but I park my car outside

The mentally ill (e.g. hoarders) probably shouldn't be driving at all.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Take, for example, a 700 mile trip.

Take for example, real world range of 55 miles

You're going to have to stop 13x to charge up that sweet ride on that 700 mile 20 hour road trip.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Amouth]

I will say, as an EV owner but someone who can not afford a Tesla (we have a used Leaf) it infuriates me that Tesla has spent so much effort building a network that they will not even let others pay to use. I know they are going for the vendor lock in vertical market, but it is slowing down overall EV adoption..

Re:Personally I don't care

[larryjoe]

I have a garage, but I park my car outside

The mentally ill (e.g. hoarders) probably shouldn't be driving at all.

Yes, I hoard something called my wife's car in our garage. We have a 60 year old home that has an ostensibly two-car garage with 5 feet of clearance on one side and 6 inches on the other side. Because it's not practical to fit two cars in the garage, I park outside.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

Take, for example, you linked to a completely different car, nearly a decade ago, being driven on a track (which represents vastly faster energy consumption, whether gas or electric), in a faked segment (and yes, it was faked. Read the court ruling - they didn't rule that it wasn't faked, only that A) it didn't hurt Tesla's sales, and B) viewers wouldn't actually believe that everything that happens in Top Gear is real).

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

I'm also wondering how this person is routing their trips to avoid superchargers.

Re:Personally I don't care

[perpenso]

Trailer hitch & towable generator should solve the problem

Sounds pretty inefficient. Better to go with a "long-range" hybrid like a Volt.

How is that not like a hybrid, an EV carrying an ICE along? The ICE is just externally towed rather than internally mounted. Sure backing up and parking is less convenient but inefficient hasn't been demonstrated. :-)

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

This is not true. Tesla has been trying for ages to get other manufacturers to use their network; they *want* higher utilization (for paying customers, of course); their goal is 30% utilization at Superchargers. It's Nissan that you have to complain to, not Tesla.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

"On long trips, it charges during meal and bathroom / stretch breaks, about 75 miles range per 10 minutes charging at below 50% SoC. Take, for example, a 700 mile trip. At 70mph that's 10 hours (not counting breaks), so two meal breaks - say, a 20 minute lunch and a 30 minute dinner. 45 minutes charging. That adds about 375 miles, meaning 685 miles. Just one or two 10 minute stretch breaks (on your 10 hour trip) and that's your entire charging."

Assuming zero congestion for chargers.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Goetterdaemmerung]

I gave you a bloody map, what more do you want? And why are you putting "charging stations" in quotes? Superchargers are real. There are 7619 supercharger stalls operational today (aka, not counting those under construction). The average spacing along US interstates is about 70 miles (a bit more in more densely populated areas, a bit less in less densely populated ones), evenly spaced. Doubling by the end of next year. And that's just Tesla's network.

I'd love an electric car but the lack of charging stations is a real issue. It's going to be overcome but 7619 charging stations really isn't a solid number compared with 150,000 gas stations.

I live near Boston and during my 70 mile round trip commute there are no charging stations en route or nearby either end. The closest station is well out of the way, so my only option is my house which would need a high power outlet to be routed. I would have to carefully monitor the charge and ensure to plug the car in every two days or I'd be stuck. I fill up on gasoline once a week which takes about 3 minutes.

As of today an electric car doesn't serve my needs. I really want a Tesla though.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

What we need are AAA trucks

Yes, I'll just cut you off right there. You need the AAA trucks to tow them to a charger. Not to haul batteries to them, that just isn't going to happen.

Re:Personally I don't care

[caseih]

Where? In the top 5 big cities?

The US is a big country, and there's a lot of territory to cover between the major urban centers, to say nothing of the thousands of smaller cities, even more smaller towns. To say nothing of rural areas (maybe they'll just let us burn gasoline indefinitely since there are so few of us now). There's a long long long ways to go for electric vehicles to be widely viable.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Amouth]

Not exactly true, they have been trying to get others to "License" their charging standard. Tesla built a standard and the rest of the industry built a standard (and Tesla refused to participate).

Now to top that Tesla sells an adapter so that Their cars can use the Industry standard for quick charge, but refuse to sell the licence for their standard to be used in an adapter that allows others to use their chargers.

So in simple terms, their "trying" has been wanting to get a kick back for every car built, Not actually removing barriers for within the industry.

Again as a consumer and end user, i'd buy an adapter and pay to use their chargers if i could, but i can't because the option doesn't exist. Also i'd love to buy their car, but i can't because they do not have anything within my affordability range.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

you linked to a completely different car

70% of the battery capacity at 75% of the curb weight (Roadster v. Model 3).
It's call extrapolation.

being driven on a track

not sure what that has to do with anything

in a faked segment

Jeremy Clarkson has been called a lot of names, "fake" isn't one of them.
Elon Musk on the other hand, is called a fake all the time.

Re:Personally I don't care

[dissy]

I'm also wondering how this person is routing their trips to avoid superchargers.

I live in a fairly sizable city with over a two million population count.

We currently have one supercharger fairly far south.
I live on the south west part of town and that supercharger is still a 15 minute drive from me away from the city center.

We do have one more scheduled to be built on the far north side, but won't be completed until the end of 2018.
I work roughly in the middle west or as many say slightly into the north west. The planned supercharger would be 20 or so minutes away (actually closer to 35-40 in rush hour traffic) from work and in the opposite direction from my home.

So the only special routing I need to do to avoid superchargers is to basically drive anywhere whatsoever except in one direction out on one of 8 highways.

Now there are other non supercharger stations around, and not nearly as out of the way.
But at least a few months ago last I checked, on my route home to work, there were zero public charging stations. For fairness that would be compared to 3 gas stations along the two routes I can take.

My typical weekly grocery shopping routes would take be by more non superchargers and regular gas stations as well. And there are enough around town that any non-typical route I may take to get to some specific place would probably be fine. In fact I seriously doubt I would need to charge up while out running around so long as I leave home on a full charge.

Please note I'm not trying to frame this as any sort of problem for me. Personally supercharge stations wouldn't likely even come into play for me unless I'm taking a trip outside of the city.
Most of my charging would need to be done at home only, and with my normal driving routines that would be more than enough for my home-to-work route and my home-to-shopping routes.

But my point is you don't need to do any special work to "avoid" superchargers, it just naturally happens when you don't do special work to seek them out.

Re: Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

The Tesla model 3 is not certified for towing...

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

To a first order, there are something like 50 million garages in the US, leaving 100 million without garages. Where are all those people going to charge their cars?

I happen to have a garage that I can outfit for charging, but I wouldn't be able to take an EV on a work trip. I can't charge at my hotel or at my client's facility. Will those places eventually install enough charging stations for me to be able to reliably charge? At $5000 each, it'll probably be decades before that happens.

I think it's safe to say that there are a good number of people who just can't have an EV.

dom

Re: Personally I don't care

[Mirvnillith]

There is no downside to topping off an EV, i.e. plugging it in whenever itâ(TM)s at home. You donâ(TM)t need to be fully charges every morning, just not use more than you charge in the long run. Perhaps your overnight charge does not cover your daily commutes, but if it covers enough to not be out of charge by weekend a thatâ(TM)ll get you back up again (assuming you drive less enough on the weekend to âcatch upâ, as most do).

Re:Personally I don't care

[David_Hart]

2) You act like it's a bad thing to have an ability to greatly (2-3x) increase your range, something you don't have with ICE vehicles.

It's called a gas can. All you have to do is fill one and stick in the back. Other options includes a siphon to get gas from another ICE vehicle (car, boat, 4-wheeler, lawn tractor, etc.). Beyond that you can increase mileage in an ICE car by going slower speeds and turning off electronics. Not to the extent of an electric, but ICE cars do not have to go as far to find a fueling spot if low on gas...

Re:Personally I don't care

[Dog-Cow]

That would only be irrational if it wasn’t true. /cue creepy music and wolves howling in the distance.

Re:Personally I don't care

[djinn6]

Slowing down does wonders for fuel efficiency no matter what car you have. My dead-dinosaur-burning car goes from 35 mpg at 70 mph to 55 mpg at 50 mph. If I fill the trunk with gas cans, it could probably cross the continental US without refueling at all.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Maxo-Texas]

They do have those but they produce a lot of pollution

Re:Personally I don't care

[Maxo-Texas]

Up to a point, declining demand will hold down prices for gasoline.

But, at some point, when gasoline cars drop below a critical number, gasoline will be come expensive and gasoline stations will become rare.

You really need to pick the right time to switch over. It could happen *really* fast once economies of scale and the network effect are lost. You could blink and gasoline could double in price.

Re: Personally I don't care

[Type44Q]

Sounds pretty inefficient.

Yeah; the "whoosh" suggests an energy loss...

Re: Personally I don't care

[Type44Q]

...and during my 70 mile round trip commute there are no charging stations en route or nearby either end.

An EV won't meet my needs but it sounds like one would meet yours... unless you don't have A/C at home...??

Re:Personally I don't care

[thegarbz]

I don't care what the range is, until there are charging stations everywhere

That's because you are applying an unrealistic view to a technology you don't understand. You're like the people who insisted that the first cars come with buggy whip holsters.

Charging stations? A close friend of mine who's been driving an EV now for 2 years has *NEVER* used one and couldn't give a shit how many there are, where they get built or how quickly his car would charge at them.

That is the same opinion shared by very many EV owners, and it's also the opinion shared by the oil industry which is putting a shitload of research into figuring out how to not lose retail convenience shopping margins from their forecourts.

Re:Personally I don't care

[bgarcia]

Not exactly true, they have been trying to get others to "License" their charging standard.

Citation needed.

There is evidence that this is not at all true. There is a company selling a JDapter Stub, which allows other EVs to charge at Tesla destination chargers. And they appear to still be in business.

For the supercharger network, Tesla (rightfully) insists that any other company that wants to participate must help pay for the cost of the network.

Re: Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

A range extender can be a much smaller simpler engine. Think something like a lawnmower engine.

If it breaks, switching it out is pretty simple.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

If you travel more than 300 miles without going on a highway or passing a larger city you are intentionally avoiding chargers for the sake of not being able to charge.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Barsteward]

Top Gear is not a show for facts - its entertainment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:Personally I don't care

[Barsteward]

You only need a wall to attach a charger, a garage is not compulsory unless you have some legal requirement.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Alioth]

We have a bit of a problem with electric vehicles here: about 50% of the housing stock has no off-street parking (let alone a garage). A huge percentage of our housing was built decades before cars were even invented. The thing is I live on an island and the most miles I can possibly do in a day would only be 60 or so, and an electric car would be ideal. I'd love to own one, but I can't because I have nowhere to charge it - there's no power anywhere near the car park at work, there's no power anywhere near the nearest place I can park to my house, and houses with driveways/garages command an incredible premium.

Until we get charging stations in enough car parks, then electric cars are a non-starter. Perhaps in 20 years time there will finally be charging points in my nearest car park, but it's going to involve the government having to spend a lot of money to get this infrastructure available (the car park belongs to them).

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

there will be chargers where you could put a parking meter.

Re:Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

I live in a small city in Canada. I've seen a charging station once in my life, and it was a place that I rarely go. I have never seen a supercharger.

Re:Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

Usually electrical outlets on a wall by parking lots only cycle on tem minutes only hour or so. At least that is what they do for block heaters here.

Re:Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

That's fine, obviously your buddy doesn't go on long road trips.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

I park my car on the street. I charge my car with an extension cord overnight. Cord runs across the sidewalk and I have an industrial cord cover running over it. Also ADA-approved. No issues so far.

Re:Personally I don't care

[mattmarlowe]

Volt isn't that impressive. Ford C-Max Energi can get around 500-600 combined EV+ICE range, depending on how you carefully you drive it. And, it accelerates decently with a sporty feel plus has (to me) a much better interior than the Tesla Model 3. Decent enough cargo too. If you drive it right, you can also get 125MPGe just like the tesla during normal use. And, you can recharge it at home, gas station or public ev station. Price is usually under $30K w/ rebates. Yes, it's pure ev range is laughably small...but still good enough to handle most peoples daily commute. The ICE engine is pretty nice, but it does also use more gas than some smaller hybrids. If you go on the freeway frequently, your average combined MPGe might drop to 70-90. If you go on a very long trip for hundreds of miles and don't bother to charge the EV battery, MPGe will drop further to around 40MPGe. Still a better deal than the tesla model 3, I think.

Re: Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

In an emergency, any outlet is a "charging station" - it will be slow, but probably about as slow as walking 7 miles to the nearest gas station, buying a small approved can to hold fuel at an outrageous markup from the station, filling it, and walking 7 miles back.

Charge enough to get to the next high voltage charger while not getting blisters - sounds like an improvement to me.

Re:Personally I don't care

[mattmarlowe]

You carry extra weight either way. Only question is if its a gigantic battery for your pure EV or a small engine for your plugin hybrid. The battery increases the cost of the car and is very expensive to replace...but with good cooling, will last 10-15 years. The extra engine will require annual maintenance and oil changes every 20K miles or so.

Re:Personally I don't care

[AmiMoJo]

I think they don't want to make adaptors because cars using them would charge slowly, and thus tie up the charger for longer. A Leaf can only charge at 42kW, some other cars only at 23kW.

Re: Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

You know you can charge at home, right? If you live rural, you probably have the ability to plug it in.

Re: Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

What does driving all-out in a gas car on a track do to the MPG? What does that have to do with anything? Seriously?

Don't be a fucking idiot.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Amouth]

Citation needed? really? and then you link to an unlicensed adapter being sold on a forum?

Also note they are clear on that one that it does NOT work with the charging stations, only the home charger, so it doesn't even fit into the conversation going on.

Also you are saying that Tesla insists that any other "company" that wants to use the network needs to support it (I'll use your comment as my Citation). Again if they wanted to increase adoption they could easily allow consumers to buy and adapter and to then pay for the power consumption, but they don't.

All of the manufacturers to a point are creating barriers rather than removing them. This is an area where regulation could actually help, by forcing a standard much the same way DOT regulates the distribution and dispersing of fuels.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Amouth]

42kW charge rate for a 24kW battery pack is not going to tie it up for that long. the Quick charge on ours is 20min for 80%

Re: Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you manage to avoid driving near a super charger?

https://c1cleantechnicacom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/files/2016/12/2017.png

And since you can plug a Tesla into any outlet, thereâ(TM)s a lot more âoecharging stationsâ tha. Gas stations.

Re: Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

I go on long road trips with my Tesla Model X. It always starts at 100% every day because itâ(TM)s plugged in at my house.

I drive from Ann Arbor to northern Michigan. I pass 3 super chargers on the way there. I usually stop in Bay City to get a Snack and charge at the supercharger while I go in to the Meier (super chargers are typically in the same parking lot as a store, Starbucks, mall. Etc.). When I come back out, I finish my trip. About 10 minutes.

Itâ(TM)s the same way I traveled with my gas car except I would stop at a different city to pick up a snack or let the dog out.

Unlike the gas car, I donâ(TM)t care if I get to my destination with only 20% because I plug it in. I donâ(TM)t have to worry about finding a gas station the next day.

Re:Personally I don't care

[AmiMoJo]

That's peak. 80% charge is 30 minutes for a Leaf, 100% in about 50 minutes. Not sure about the new 40kWh ones.

So yeah, not bad I guess. I'm looking at getting a Tesla and have been planning some routes in various apps. Most suggest 10-15 minutes charge sessions where as with the Leaf I'd be doing 30 minutes every time.

Re:Personally I don't care

[thegarbz]

And if he did he wouldn't have a problem either given the proliferation of charging stations you willfully ignore.

And even if they were there he may be like me, someone who frequently visits sandy islands but owns a small hatchback. I don't dictate my life by odd events, that is what hired cars are for.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Stuarticus]

So your garage only has 6 inches of clearance but it needs a fifty foot cable to reach the outside? Is it by any chance blue in colour and disguised to look like a police box?

Re:Personally I don't care

[b0bby]

A couple of months ago I decided to dip my toe in the water and got a Leaf. Having lived with it for a while, i'm convinced that a 200+ mile range Tesla would be fine for almost anyone's only car, as long as you have the ability to install a charger where you park overnight. I put in a 40 amp L2 charger which is overkill for the Leaf, and it can add ~25 miles per hour of charging; it could charge a Bolt or Tesla faster than that. So if you just plug it in when you get home after your commute, less than 3 hours later you are full again. Even the 2018 Leaf would handle your commute. It takes a while to get used to this concept (me anyway) but now that I'm comfortable with it, it seems so much better than filling up at gas stations. You would just get into the habit of plugging it in when you got home, the charger is just sitting right there.

The reason I specified a Tesla as an only car is that for road trips the Supercharger network really is much better. For example between DC and NY, there are Superchargers at the rest areas right on 95; for a Chademo charger you'd have to get off and find the chargers in some mall.

I'm going to keep using my ICE vehicles for some tasks the Leaf can't handle, but I'll never buy another one. My wife loves her BMW convertible, but she likes driving the Leaf even more. And the Leaf is really just a crappy econobox EV, with limitations that are not going to be found on the EVs coming down the pike (range & battery life concerns).

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Rei the Icelander posting 0257 local time.
Posting 0427 local time a few days ago

Musk cocksucking at its finest.
#TinySouthAfricanPenis

Re:Personally I don't care

[BostonPilot]

I gotta agree with Rei, you do seem to be going out of your way to try to misstate the point he's making.

In addition to what he said, there are some non-emergency reasons that driving slower is cool.

When I'm driving my EV, I often avoid highways:

1) The difference in efficiency between 45 MPH and 70 MPH is pretty dramatic.

2) In lots of cases, it doesn't increase the trip time as much as you might think. Often, the non-highway route is more direct, so you save some time by driving less miles, so the fact that you're going slower might not increase the trip all that much. Figure 20% longer trip times as an average. So, like... an extra 12 minutes on an hour long drive...

3) For repeated trips (like, every time I pick my daughter up from college or drop her off) it's actually pretty fun to go different ways on back roads. They're often very scenic, and by going different routes, you see different stuff each time. It's actually very enjoyable, and Google Maps usually gives you a few reasonable choices, so it's easy to try different ways.

4) It's a LOT quieter. EVs are very quiet at lower speeds. I was out with a friend yesterday and was showing him how at low speeds you can whisper to each other... it's that quiet. It definitely makes listening to music more enjoyable for me. At highway speeds most of the noise is from the wind and the tires so on the highway EVs suck almost as much as ICEs from a cabin noise standpoint.

5) You almost never get stuck in traffic. If you're on the highway and there's a sudden traffic jam, unless you spot it in time, you're going to get stuck in it until you can creep to the next exit. On back roads, you can always detour, and even do a U-turn if necessary, and route yourself around it (or not, but the point is that you have a choice).

On longer trips the highway starts becoming more compelling - the longer the trip, the more direct the highway tends to be. On shorter trips you may spend a fair amount of time getting to and from the highway, but on longer trips that becomes negligible.

As for chargers, Rei is right: regular charge stations tend to be all over the place. And yeah, in a pinch if the worst happened you can do a slow charge from 110 volts... enough to get to a real charger. And services like AAA are starting to offer mobile recharging services if you actually got 100% stuck.

I'll never buy another ICE car again, EVs are so much more pleasant to drive.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Kielistic]

The transmission is to put the ICE power to the wheels. Don't need much of a transmission to power a generator.

Gasoline is massively more energy dense per weight than a battery. A pure electric may be mechanically much simpler than a hybrid but there are definitely things more inefficient than a hybrid.

Re:Personally I don't care

[BostonPilot]

So, I'm a little curious about your commute, because really there are a LOT of chargers around Boston. As you go out west of Worcester they're much more spread out.

In any case, a 70 mile commute is right in the sweet spot for many of the BEVs.

As for home charging, hell yeah you should install a 220v charger! I just had my electrician put a dryer outlet in the garage and then I hung a charging station on the wall next to it. I get home, I plug in. It takes maybe 10 seconds. When I'm ready to leave again, I disconnect; another 10 seconds.

As others state, with an EV you don't wait until the charge level is getting down... just plug in each time you get home. It's simple, it's quick, and you always have a "full tank". It's much nicer than having to stop at a gas station once or twice a week...

My old commute was 60 miles (Acton to Burlington). Took about 50% charge to do the round trip, and when I would get home and plug in it would be topped off within 90 minutes... So, you go home and plug in, make a meal or do something around the house, and voila the car is back at 100% charge if you want to go run some more errands. It's really nice to have the "gas tank" full each morning when you leave the house. Until people have an EV and experience it, they tend to think that you'll follow a similar procedure like an ICE: filling only when the tank is getting low. That's just not the way to do it if you have a garage (or parking space next to the house - I park my car outside the garage and just have a long enough cord that I can plug in without being in the garage - my old BEV I did park in the garage).

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

It's not a problem the way superchargers work. Superchargers have two stalls per charger. The charger supports 145kW. Each stall supports a max of 120kW (although in practice vehicles generally max out at 112-116kW). It's designed such that at low utilization rates, everyone can hook up to a different charger, while at high utilization rates, you can get some slowdown, but it tends to get into a cycle where the chargers end up with people early in their charge (who can take power as quickly as they can get it) paired with those who are late in their charge (aka, not taking as much power). A Leaf would be like a Tesla that's nearly full; a vehicle in a paired stall would still get almost the max charge rate.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

Meh, I should have posted you when I actually went to bed (5:30), just to mess with you ;) (Damn you, Universal Paperclips!)

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

Where? In the top 5 big cities?

No. Everywhere.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Musk is a well known liar.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-a-running-list-of-comments-from-public-agencies-o-1797094244

Re:Personally I don't care

[Rei]

I live in a fairly sizable city with over a two million population count. We currently have one supercharger fairly far south.

The topic was long trips ("On long trips, it charges during meal and bathroom / stretch breaks..." / "... if you are willing to make sure that your route passes those charging stations"), which is what the current supercharger network was designed for (it's being extended to put more of a focus on supercharging for apartment dwellers' daily drive, but that's a new push). "Between cities" is where they're supposed to be on the current network.

Note that the scheduled superchargers on the maps are only a fraction of the total. A lot of them we don't find out about until Tesla applies for a permit or even when it comes online. This is particularly common with private partnerships - for example, Sheetz is installing superchargers at their gas stations.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

I like my cars to be reliable.

Then never buy a Tesla. They have the worst reliability in the industry.

Re:Personally I don't care

[BostonPilot]

In your everyday life (aka, the vast majority of your time), instead of 5 minutes to detour to a gas station, a full charge takes 10 seconds: 5 to plug in, 5 to unplug. In the comfort of your garage.

... if you happen to have a garage and actually park your car inside the garage. I have a garage, but I park my car outside and would need a 50-foot cable to reach my car.

I park my EV (Chevy Volt) outside and charge with a long charging cable. Works great. All weather. Not a problem. With the long cord it maybe takes me 10 seconds instead of the 5 seconds GP said... It's very quick and routine and much nicer than having to stop at gas stations.

3) in the absolute worst case (which almost never happens), you can ask to charge virtually anywhere. Farmhouse in the middle of nowhere? Ranger station deep in a national park? You name it. And the answer in practice is almost always yes.

Well, if the out-of-juice car happened to stop conveniently right next to the electric plug, that's great. But that doesn't really happen with electric or gas cars. AAA trucks carry spare gas for stranded gas cars. What we need are AAA trucks with batteries to charge stranded cars ... sometime in the future.

AAA now has trucks capable of giving an EV a charge.

In 4.5 years of driving EVs, I've never had any of the issues you are bringing up. You can keep bringing up less and less credible situations, but the reality is that it works very well today (if you have charging at home) and it will continue to get easier and easier as cars get bigger batteries, and the charging networks continue to expand.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Amouth]

Charging to 100% isn't always required, especially when out and about traveling. You could do ~4x 80% charges for the same time as 2x 100% charges

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have to carefully monitor the charge and ensure to plug the car in every two days or I'd be stuck.

No, you really don't. My wife plugs in the Volt every time she gets home. Unplugs every time she wants to drive it. It ain't rocket surgery, it's just a new habit you don't yet have. Think of it like having your own private gas pump, that doesn't smell bad or carry the fire/explosion risk. The charger is in doors, but the plug has stayed outside in the driveway for years. She hangs it on a post to keep from driving over it. Somehow it has been driven over several times. Besides some light scratches, that thing is pretty indestructible.

We bought it used, no tax break, and buy around 20 gallons per year for those longer trips. Saves about $1000 of gas money each year compared to what she used to drive. We compared it with used cars like Sonata, Camry, etc, all at the same price point. The Volt was nicer inside (*except only having 4 seats, I didn't like that at first, until realizing that we never use the 5th middle seat in my car either) and electricity here is quite cheap. Total 4-5 year maintenance cost has been... new tires.

I'm all for ridiculing eco-nazi smug people that think their Prius is sneaking out at night to fight crime and saving the planet or whales or something. We just picked it to save money.

Re:Personally I don't care

[AmiMoJo]

Yeah, that's what I normally do. 80% charge is about 1 to 1.5 hours of driving in a Leaf, depending on speed and conditions. I mostly use destination charging for that reason.

Once you get to about 300 miles range and 120kW charging it's basically no worse than a fossil car.

Re:Personally I don't care

[AmiMoJo]

How do people manage the early/late stage pairing up? Like say you drive into a charging station with 20 stalls, do people drive around looking for ones with nearly full cars attached?

The other great thing about Tesla chargers is that they are universal. Driving from continental Europe in and out of the UK, assume they don't flood the tunnel after Brexit, is much easier when you only have one charging network and one connector to deal with.

Re: Personally I don't care

[larryjoe]

How would you manage to avoid driving near a super charger?

https://c1cleantechnicacom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/files/2016/12/2017.png

That map of superchargers is only impressive compared to what was there before but not compared to the number of gas stations. Only major highways are covered. If you're taking minor highways and back roads, you'd have to plan your route to not stray too far from the existing superchargers.

And since you can plug a Tesla into any outlet, thereâ(TM)s a lot more âoecharging stationsâ tha. Gas stations.

There are billions and billions of electrical outlets in the US, and almost all of them are worthless for charging an electric car because the owners won't allow it. If your car stops in front of my house, I won't let you connect to my outlets. If you stop in front of a business, they aren't going to let you plug into their outlets either. In fact, it's hard to think of many places that would actually let you charge up. I'm not sure most companies would look favorably on non-employees charging at their stations. There are the superchargers and the few, scattered charging stations in some towns, but you have either plan your route to hit those stations or otherwise be extremely lucky to fortuitously find one.

Re: Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not just carry a little cannister of gasoline and pour it into the phone's charging input?

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

The sequence of events matters. Back in, what, 2011(?), the CCS spec for fast charging was not complete. CHAdeMO was, but topped out at 50kw. Tesla said you're all doing it wrong, chargers need to deliver much more power. But neither of the bodies behind those specs was doing much to get the spec to the level that Tesla was advocating (these are orgs populated by other car companies who at that time were showing almost no interest in promoting EVs). Tesla said fine, if you can't move forward, we'll go do it ourselves. And they did. And they even invited the other car companies to join them, but they have to pay for their customers' use, just like Tesla's customers pay for their use of the SuperChargers. Sadly, none of the other car companies have been willing to join in. So, direct your complaints at the other car companies, not Tesla.

I expect at least a few of the current car companies to disappear over the next 10 years as EVs, which, battery aside, are cheaper to design, build, operate, and maintain--and the battery prices are falling quickly. I feel sorry for the factory workers who will lose their jobs as a result, but not the upper execs who get paid a lot of money supposedly because they're "leaders" when the reality is that they're leading their companies off the cliff. Good riddance.

Re:Personally I don't care

[skullandbones99]

Do not forget that an electric drivetrain is more efficient than an ICE drivetrain:

ICE drivetrain is 30% efficient per unit of energy source
Electric drivetrain is 90% efficient per unit of energy source

This means batteries need to have 30/90 = 1/3rd the energy density of gasoline for the electric vehicle to have the same energy usage at the wheels as the ICE vehicle.

Also:
1. An electric vehicle can be more aerodynamic than an ICE vehicle so an electric vehicle suffers less drag and therefore there is an efficiency gain over the ICE vehicle.
2. Electric vehicle can have regenerative braking systems which converts the kinetic energy back into stored electrical energy which makes an electric vehicle more efficient than an ICE vehicle on roads with varying gradients.

Therefore, the battery energy density is a major factor in the range of the vehicle but it is not the only factor.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla open sourced everything. There ARE adapters available to use anything, made by third parties. Those adapters for Tesla owners to charge on others were also made by the same third parties.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

[Range anxiety is] A belief only held by people who've never owned an EV.

My coworker has an EV Fiat. He's one his second lease.

According to him, he has range anxiety.

His roundtrip commute takes practically all his battery capacity. In order to meet us at lunch, the spot has to be very close to the office, or it has to have a charging port (and there's been multiple times where all the charging spots were taken).

He also has to get up in the middle of each night to do something to his charger. Can't remember the details because I was laughing at him.

EVs will continue to mature a ton, but owning one right now isnt exactly shitting rainbows.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

I should have posted you when I actually went to bed (5:30)

Icelander on the night shift, nice.
You come across as a educated science or engineering type, I think you are wasting your "talents" in some night shift occupation.

Also you seem to get less than 3 hours of sleep? Three days ago you posted at 8:25 local time (gone to sleep 5:30).

Re:Personally I don't care

[baerd]

and a full charge happens in 10 minutes In your everyday life (aka, the vast majority of your time), instead of 5 minutes to detour to a gas station, a full charge takes 10 seconds: 5 to plug in, 5 to unplug. In the comfort of your garage.

This is one of my pet peeves about electric cars, and why they are not ready for the average person yet. Most people do not own a house, many own or rent an apartment or rent a house, in which case they cannot have a charger in their garage and MUST be able to recharge their car somewhere else. What about people who park out on the street are they not worthy of driving electric cars? Garage chargers were fine for Model S and X where they are expensive enough that the commoners who rent couldn't afford them anyways, but now that they want to appeal to a wider customer base this needs to be addressed. It amazes me that proponents of the electric car revolution have never considered the vast majority of the population for whom recharging at a station is the only way they will be able to do it and legitimately required it to be faster and more convenient than it is.

Re:Personally I don't care

[MercTech]

I'd love to see an explanation how distancing the end use of energy from the source of generation is more efficient.

As electric motors are maximum 28% efficient (power factor) and electric generators at the power plant are maximum 28% efficient; how do you get a high efficiency out of the whole system?
Electric car scenario.
Burn fuel
Boil water
Turn turbine generating electricity (with losses)
Send down long distance transmission lines (with losses)
Charge a battery (with losses)
run a motor (with losses)
regenerative braking to recharge battery (with losses)

ICE scenario
Burn fuel to turn engine (with heat losses)
Tap engine movement to drive wheels. (friction losses)

With the losses every time you convert the form of energy and the efficiency issues in the conversion; it seems that electric cars would actually burn more fuel just not in your back yard (the roadway).

Re:Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

As I said in another post, there are currently zero supercharger stations in my province. I have yet to see one at all, even in my trips to the US.

Re:Personally I don't care

[torkus]

Take some xanax and buy a Honda then. The rest of us won't burn any more dinosaurs.

The rest of us will happily drive this where ever we like. My friends drive...a LOT...and still wouldn't have a problem. I can't think of the last time I needed to drive so far and didn't want a break to refuel (myself) during which a supercharger could easily top up the car.

Mind you, I don't normally drive this much in a WEEK and the average commuter (12k/yr) could top up their battery overnight on a standard 110v outlet in normal climate or a 20a 110v outlet in more adverse conditions. All the nonsense about range anxiety is for the once or twice a year most people take long road trips - and even then they're generally covered by the already existing supercharger network much less all the other charge stations.

Re: Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

Tesla's are way out of my budget, so super chargers don't really matter to me. I've never stayed at a hotel with charging stations, maybe you don't stay at Motel 8's like I do. Furthermore, I would be uncomfortable arriving at 20% because there are many reasons why I may need to go back immediately or respond to an emergency; like when my kid had a fever of 104 and I had to go driving around looking for a hospital that would accept me (it was a lot of driving). Or I may even need to go home at that point, so no I wouldn't like that at all. I think it is a very risky situation in fact.

Re:Personally I don't care

[torkus]

With an EV, the weight has a much smaller impact since (minus the small inefficiencies in the system) you get back the energy required to accelerate your heavier car. The old-school 'lighter car = better gas mileage' thinking doesn't apply enough to really matter.

However, hanging a genrator off your trailer hitch will fuck up your aerodynamics and cost you some highway mileage ... food for thought.

Re:Personally I don't care

[torkus]

That's ... a very long way to say 'compare MPG with MPGe'

The tesla, at 130MPGe, is over 3x more energy efficient than even your 40 MPG hybrid. Done and done.

Re:Personally I don't care

[torkus]

A portable generator is not as efficient as a modern, fully integrated, ICE/electric motor combo. No way, no how. Not going to happen unless you literally throw 10's of thousands of dollars at your solution just to say you did.

Oh, and you want to TOW it? Might as well factor in the rolling resistance and (lack of) aerodynamics of that trailer plus generator. Really, it's a stupid idea for 99.999% of people. Either buy an ICE vehicle if you're doing 100's of miles away from civilization at a clip or get an tesla and you really won't have mileage problems...really.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry, due to global warming, your island is going away anyhow, meaning you might as well give up and move.

Re:Personally I don't care

[dissy]

Negative. I assume you meant to reply to the person a few posts up who mentioned the 50 foot cable?

Re:Personally I don't care

[fatwilbur]

As someone who works in the petroleum industry (and is heavily invested in it), I think it's great to have more options, and as always, may the most convenient and affordable option win.

Actually, I hope electric vehicles take over a large portion of our transportation needs. It will get us out of this current "anti-car" mentality the younger generation is pushing and forcing into design of our cities. Owning a car is the single most freedom-enabling you could possibly own (private jets aside).

Second, as it comes to oil & gas, it would be great to stop using so much of it for personal transportation - but only so we could use it for more efficient and better things. We've been blessed with underground fuel deposits on this planet. It's so much energy, it will always have high value, but we should use it for the highest value activities.

Re:Personally I don't care

[cthulhu11]

That doesn't really answer the GP's point. Real food (ie., not McDeath) has to be within a few minutes' walk of the charging station, not with an hour. Said real food has to be *open* when one is passing through.

Re: Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

I don't know where you get this from. I just want it to be more like the technology they would like to replace.

Re:Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

Tesla would be fine for almost anyone's only car

So say they wanted to go on a trip across Canada driving 12 hours a day and didn't want to plan where to fill up, how exactly would that work?

Re:Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

Yes because people love you when you drive 20MPH on a single lane highway. No stress in that at all.

Re:Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

1) The difference in the 100 cars behind you, all pissed off on the other hand... 2) Because of !) I don't care 3) I don't have that much time 4) I don't care, I actually like the engine sound. LOVE open muffler sound. 5) Holy fuck, don't you do anything else?

Re:Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

Cord runs across the sidewalk

You know that's not only illegal, but more importantly a dick move, right? Someone trips over that and you're sued.

Re:Personally I don't care

[lsatenstein]

Do not forget that an electric drivetrain is more efficient than an ICE drivetrain:

ICE drivetrain is 30% efficient per unit of energy source
Electric drivetrain is 90% efficient per unit of energy source

This means batteries need to have 30/90 = 1/3rd the energy density of gasoline for the electric vehicle to have the same energy usage at the wheels as the ICE vehicle.

Also:
1. An electric vehicle can be more aerodynamic than an ICE vehicle so an electric vehicle suffers less drag and therefore there is an efficiency gain over the ICE vehicle.
2. Electric vehicle can have regenerative braking systems which converts the kinetic energy back into stored electrical energy which makes an electric vehicle more efficient than an ICE vehicle on roads with varying gradients.

Therefore, the battery energy density is a major factor in the range of the vehicle but it is not the only factor.

Electric taxi cars are now replacing standard gasoline powered vehicles. The car can be slow (trickle) charged overnight, or with higher current, in about 1 hour.

Re:Personally I don't care

[fluffernutter]

Then you have a small life. That's fine, but I'm the type of person that likes to keep my options open. I like to feel free to go wherever I want at any time, without a bunch of planning. Heck, I might drive 500 miles tomorrow.

Re:Personally I don't care

[thegarbz]

And? Good work ignoring 2/3 of my post.

Re:Personally I don't care

[djinn6]

Being able to cross the US is based on 55 mpg at 50 mph. My trunk can fit maybe 10 5-gallon gas cans. Plus the 13 gallons in the regular tank, that's 63 gallons. 63 x 55 = 3465 miles.

Re:Personally I don't care

[b0bby]

That's where the "almost" comes in.

Re:Personally I don't care

[david_thornley]

Where do you get your figures? They're completely unlike any values I've seen before.

Re: Personally I don't care

[david_thornley]

Some technology replacement is pretty much drop-in, like LED light bulbs. Other technology replacement is more different. Electric cars have lots of advantages compared to ICE cars, and some disadvantages.

Re:Personally I don't care

[dougTheRug]

It's night shift all day in Iceland right now.

Re:Personally I don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

You say your city is fairly sizable, is it in the region of 200 miles across? Because then I could see a single supercharger to the south being a problem, otherwise you won't be needing one on a day-to-day basis. It is only for long trips that there is a need for them.

Impressive

[110010001000]

But like everyone I need to drive 311 miles per day. I'll wait for the Model 4.

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

You suck a faggot Trump supporters cock is what it is. You think you're being cute or funny but you're just an asshole who needs a car to take the place of your tiny penis.

Re:Impressive

[Hal_Porter]

Homophobia from the left? Why am I not surprised...

Re:Impressive

[arth1]

The distance between my two work locations is 305 miles.
It should cover that then, but it won't. T\he problem is that the EPA mileage takes into account neither sweltering summer heat nor winter temperatures way below freezing. Especially at really low temperatures, the range of electric cars is severely reduced, as in sometimes only getting half the range.

And then it does not take two minutes to fill it, with stations at pretty much every crossroads. Even if you should be lucky enough to find a "rapid" charging station, it's a long wait, and then you don't even get the same range afterwards, because that range is based on slow charging.

Proponents like to point out that most people don't drive that far most of the time. But I don't want a car that I can only use for 80% of the time, and have to go rent a proper car whenever going far.

Sure electric cars is the future, but hybrids is what makes sense for any foreseeable future. Limping along on gas when the batteries are down is far better than being stuck.

Re:Impressive

[110010001000]

There is always "that guy" who needs to drive 300 miles in a day regularly. 305 miles is at least a five hour drive. Do you do that 20% of the time? If so, you need to find a new job because you are wasting your life away in a car.

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

It's to prevent "range anxiety" and also because the batteries will deteriorate over time and offer a lower range.

Related fact: a "long-range" hybrid will see more all-electric mileage than "low-end" all-electric vehicles. No doubt because the driver isn't afraid of running out of battery power and can just keep driving and thus going on longer ranged trips:
"A 2014 analysis conducted by the Idaho National Laboratory using a sample of 21,600 all-electric cars and plug-in hybrids, found that Volt owners traveled on average 9,112 miles in all-electric mode (e-miles) per year, while Leaf owners traveled 9,697 e-miles per year, despite the Volt's shorter all-electric range, about half of the Leaf's"

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

because you are a stupid faggot

Re:Impressive

[Hal_Porter]

Yeah, everyone knows if a new technology can't support your lifestyle, the solution is to redesign your lifestyle so that doesn't matter rather than sticking with the old technology. Got to keep upgrading and chucking the old technology in a landfill, even if the 'upgrade' is worse! Think of the environment!

Re:Impressive

[Rei]

Leaf charging is 1/3rd the speed of Tesla charging. Leafs really don't work for road tripping. Road tripping in a Tesla means stopping for a meal, then leaving with a couple hundred miles more charge. Road tripping in a Leaf.... not so much.

Re:Impressive

[arth1]

There is always "that guy" who needs to drive 300 miles in a day regularly. 305 miles is at least a five hour drive. Do you do that 20% of the time?

20% of the time would be one trip between two work locations every two weeks (because it also involves a return trip). That's not all that uncommon, depending on your position.

But even 95% or 99% of the time would not be good enough. It's the worst case scenarios that's the problem. Say you come back from a long joyride, your batteries are almost flat, and then have to [go to a hospital because a relative was in an accident | go see an important customer the next state over | whatever else comes up] that's a two hour drive away. You can't do it and have to hope that someone can lend you a real car.
It's the uncertainty that's the problem here, because you never know what might come up. But with a regular car, you know that it takes two minutes to fill the tank, and you can do it everywhere, and go everywhere at any time.

Re: Impressive

[dougdonovan]

model 6 rocks ;)

Re: Impressive

[dougdonovan]

hey wanna be binary...be nice...dont get me involved.

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

You're arguing that this is an issue, when 99.999% of people will never have this problem.

"I have just completely depleted my battery! I totally forgot I made plans with that client, and they're SUPER IMPORTANT which is why I forgot and there is no possible way to reschedule!"

Anything else is on some supremely poor and extremely coincidental timing. And most of those situations are more often than not going to be of the variety that you personally cannot assist with.

Re:Impressive

[guacamole]

300 miles at lest five hour drive? Please. I drive 75 mph on most interstates in the southwest. Sometimes faster. It's a four hour ride.

Re:Impressive

[arth1]

You're arguing that this is an issue, when 99.999% of people will never have this problem.

Or to put it another way, 99.999% of people may have this problem. It's adding an unnecessary risk that's the issue. One you simply don't have, even with the cheapest gasoline or hybrid vehicle.
If you belong to the 0.001% that can plan your life completely and know for certain that you can't enter such a situation, you likely have a very boring life too.

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I can't have an electric car as my vehicle for this reason. If I decide to go to a multi-car scenario then something like the Model 3 would be fine for a grocery getter, although I'd still prefer a plug-in hybrid with say, half that range.

Re:Impressive

[Kjella]

It's not going to be a good fit for you, but there's no need to exaggerate. Plowing your way through heavy snow/slush it could potentially get as bad as half, but ordinary cold winter conditions is more like a quarter. Superchargers don't appear by chasing leprechauns, either there is one between your work locations or there's not. Half an hour at a supercharger should give you ~170 miles and (310+170)*0.75 = 360 miles should make it just fine. And in the winter how fast are you going, 50 mph average? It's a thirty minute break on a six hour trip. Like you're going to rent a car for that, bullshit. If that's the car you have, you drive it and yeah it takes a little longer. If you do it often like you do, get an ICE. But you make it sound like a 300 mile range is a Nissan Leaf.

Re:Impressive

[fluffernutter]

You're arguing that this is an issue, when 99.999% of people will never have this problem.

I pay house insurance in case my house burns down, even though 99.999% of people never have this problem. You are saying it is a bad idea to buy insurance?

Re:Impressive

[fluffernutter]

It's a thirty minute break in a place where you have NO CHOICE to stop at. Big difference. People who stop for a rest usually like to be able to pick where that place is.

Re:Impressive

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

No body is forcing you to buy an electric car. Go ahead and buy whatever is suitable for you, whatever you like.

Just give the same respect to other people. There will be people who might find electric cars adequate.

At this point it is not the range, it is the price. The additional price of electric car does not justify the savings in fuel costs. So most people are not finding it compelling to try the new technology.

When the breakthrough comes and when there is cost savings, people will switch.

When electric cars reach 50% market share, let us see how many people who value range are willing to pay more for the range.

Re:Impressive

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Cant call uber? Cant call a taxi? For those extremely hypothetical contingency?

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

There were 1.3 million house fires for about 125 million households in the US in 2014 (most recent year I saw stats for). You've got way too many 9s in that percentage.

Re:Impressive

[fluffernutter]

If you're going to split hairs, then let's see some stats actually referenced for people who need a vehicle to travel more than 310 miles in one trip during the time owning the vehicle.

Re:Impressive

[kqs]

No reason to be surprised. The left has plenty of idiots and bigots of all stripes. The main difference between the left and right is that the left tends to not elect those people or pay attention to their whining screeds.

But the troll probably doesn't care about left or right; they're just trying to make excuses for their limited endowments.

Re:Impressive

[Octorian]

There is always "that guy" who needs to drive 300 miles in a day regularly. 305 miles is at least a five hour drive. Do you do that 20% of the time? If so, you need to find a new job because you are wasting your life away in a car.

And for some reason, "that guy" *always* shows up in comment threads on articles like this one. He also often needs the cargo capacity of a pickup truck, and sometimes is driving to some shack in the deep woods with no electricity. Oh, and also assumes his use case is typical, or at least a complete blocker to anyone adopting EVs.

Re:Impressive

[kqs]

Or to put it another way, 99.999% of people may have this problem. It's adding an unnecessary risk that's the issue. One you simply don't have, even with the cheapest gasoline or hybrid vehicle.

Of course, with a gasoline vehicle, you might have the fuel pump or alternator or radiator go. None of which are a problem in electric vehicles.

I owned a Toyota Corolla for 17 years before it died (mostly of body rust). It probably broke down about 10 times, which is about 0.16% unreliable on a daily basis, or 99.84% reliable. That is rather worse than the 99.999% number given above.

This argument reminds me of the time a Tesla ran over a large piece of metal, warned the driver that it was going to shut down (giving them time to pull to the side of the road), and a few minutes later caught on fire. Gasoline cars catch on fire A LOT (usually with less warning); they're full of gasoline, get extremely hot, and generate sparks. But some people got the idea that electric cars were major fire hazards. People always focus on unlikely problems while not considering the common problems.

Re:Impressive

[arth1]

Cant call uber? Cant call a taxi? For those extremely hypothetical contingency?

I've taken some long taxi rides before, because of emergencies.
A full tank is $40. A two hour taxi ride is more like $400 negotiated, and Uber around $300, but good luck getting one - they'd rather ride local surge pricing than go on long trips with zero return fares.

Re:Impressive

[RightwingNutjob]

No, they elect them. They also put them in to cushy jobs at national newspapers, radio, and TV networks where they sanctimoniously preach at us about how sinful and depraved we are in between getting blow jobs from interns under their desks. And when it's an intern of the same gender, then we're also homophobes for good measure.

Re:Impressive

[AmiMoJo]

My Nissan Leaf is cheaper due to fuel savings than an equivalent petrol car. Of course I could buy a cheaper Hyundai, but it wouldn't offer the same level of comfort or performance as the Leaf. It would automatically de-frost itself in the morning, which I'm really appreciating at the moment.

Re:Impressive

[Maxo-Texas]

Well.. a 4 hour drive (at 75mph which is a legal speed limit in many states) assuming you are vaulted from your parking spot onto the road at full speed.) But seriously, large states have higher speed limits. People regularly drive 85mph.

But 300 miles a day (150 miles each way) would still eat up a car extremely quickly (every 2-3 years), run you about $3,000 a year in fuel costs (currently) and is an edge case.

Agree he is wasting his life and should be at least driving a company car.

Re: Impressive

[Type44Q]

...the left tends to not elect those people

You mean there are worse ones?!

Re: Impressive

[Type44Q]

If so, you need to find a new job because you are wasting your life away in a car.

It often beats wasting it away under artificial lighting at a desk behind a screen.

Re:Impressive

[Chrisq]

There is always "that guy" who needs to drive 300 miles in a day regularly. 305 miles is at least a five hour drive. Do you do that 20% of the time? If so, you need to find a new job because you are wasting your life away in a car.

I did know someone who did this sort of mileage. he was a courier. 99.99% of people don't!

Re:Impressive

[Barsteward]

Just how big is your bladder?

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

your right, everyday I drive to work with dozens of cars burning around me...

oh no, actually it's very rare, like may be 1 a year in a bad year (last one was probably 3 to 4 years ago)

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

not big enough to take 30mins to empty

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

$400 is probably saved in a year in fuel savings alone.

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

>When electric cars reach 50% market share that will happen before 2030, and a few years later it will be 80%.

Re:Impressive

[Rei]

Gasoline cars experience roughly one fire per 20 million miles. Teslas have averaged one fire per 100 million miles.

Re:Impressive

[AmiMoJo]

EVs are better than fossil cars for cold weather anyway. That's one reason why they are so popular in Nordic countries.

Pre-heating while plugged in, including the battery pack, no issues with not starting for fluids freezing, low centre of gravity to improve handling on ice/snow.

Re:Impressive

[edtice1559]

I have no idea how "that guy" comments so much as it seems he spends his whole life in the car. Hopefully he's not posting while driving.

Re:Impressive

[The Cynical Critic]

The talk about people needing to do trips that long regularly is mostly just straw men from EV fanboys...

No, the real issue people have with EVs is that people don't want to have to have a separate car for trips they only do a few times a year or because something they didn't expect happened. Like a relative or close friend falling ill or otherwise needing your immediate help someplace that isn't far enough for a plane ride to make sense, but is also too far away and/or too remote for an EV. Renting a car is obviously an option, but it's expensive and can be pretty inconvenient if it is has to be done at short notice.

No, the issue is not everyday inconvenience, it's being inconvenient when that inconvenience strikes at the most... Well... inconvenient times.

Re:Impressive

[110010001000]

You need to get a new job. You are spending too much time in a car. Seriously.

Re:Impressive

[110010001000]

If you need to drive five hour trips regularly, and you aren't a delivery driver, your lifestyle sucks.

Re: Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an article s out a car with a 310 range. You donâ(TM)t need a different car for trips.

Re: Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation needed]

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

But then the Leaf doesn't have to be towed away all the time because something broke down, so ultimately, it is probably more convenient for road trips.

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sure electric cars is the future, but hybrids is what makes sense for any foreseeable future. Limping along on gas when the batteries are down is far better than being stuck."

No, you need to accept that you are an outlier, and that in any situation where work travel is discussed, you are an anomaly. You quite literally do not matter in this conversation, because you are so far outside the statistical norm that you will always be a special case.

Re:Impressive

[kqs]

No, they elect them.

Nope. Turns out that President "I never heard of David Duke" Trump isn't left-wing. Neither is Roy "Commandment 11: Thou shalt try to date girls less than half thine age" Moore, who will probably be elected based on recent polls. Who on the left has recently been elected shortly after such revelations?

They also put them in to cushy jobs at national newspapers, radio, and TV networks where they sanctimoniously preach at us about how sinful and depraved we are in between getting blow jobs from interns under their desks

I have no idea what you are talking about. The only folks I hear preaching about how sinful everyone is are right-wing religious types (like Roy Moore).

Seriously, what are you talking about? Who on the left is "sanctimoniously preach(ing) at us about how sinful and depraved we are"? Note, if nobody else knows either, then you are probably listening to the voices in your head again and need to adjust your medication.

Re:Impressive

[Whorhay]

That Corolla sounds like a lemon, so far as Corollas go. I had one that was 20 years old for about a year and it never broke down on me, hell the AC even worked, though the cassette deck didn't. The one we have now has had the battery go dead a couple times, and the transmission needed tightening up once upon a time, but it's going on 13 years old now. I guess it wouldn't surprise me for it to have more gremlins show up in the next few years but I fully expect to get another 7 years of use out of it before seriously considering replacing it.

All that said all electric vehicles like Tesla is making should be incredibly more reliable than even the stalwart Corollas. There is simply so much less in the way of moving parts and volatile chemicals to manage. I really hope that by the time my Corolla wears out I'll be able to replace it with an electric vehicle like the Model 3.

Re:Impressive

[Kielistic]

If you hear it all the time maybe that use case is more common than you are assuming?

Re: Impressive

[Rei]

For starters...

Re:Impressive

[Rei]

Consumer Reports rates Model S reliability as "above average", but don't let that ruin a good propaganda campaign.

Re: Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

Ruin? If anything, that is a big success for the propaganda campaign.

Re: Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

That's from a country without mandatory safety inspections and where servicing a car according to the recommended schedule is frowned upon, though. I don't think it is very representative.

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

You're in luck, it's rechargeable! :)

Re: Impressive

[The Cynical Critic]

Ever heard of something called a "return trip" by any chance? If you're going somewhere rural or otherwise remote you're probably not be able to recharge once you're there so you have to recharge somewhere along the return route or, worse yet, when you're back home. Specially if you can't charge at home you're probably not going to have a fully charged battery to start with. What this means is that your actual maximum no-recharge distance from home is going to be considerably less than 310 miles. Also don't forget that's the extra range model that you have to pay extra for and not the stock one.

The unfortunate reality with electric cars is that they're simply not going to have the convenience of an internal combustion engine until the supercharger network is built up to the same point that the regular gas station infrastructure has been built up to.

Re:Impressive

[RightwingNutjob]

Read the editorials in the NYT, WaPo, and CNN for a week straight and come back and try to tell me exactly what you've just said with a straight face. I'll wait.

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

EVs aren't popular in Nordic countries. They are popular in the one Nordic country that has huge tax incentives for EVs and even there, the popularity is largely restricted to the most populous areas.

Re:Impressive

[kqs]

I still don't know what you mean, and you clearly don't have any non-imaginary evidence, so I'm guessing the "adjust medication" option is your best choice.

Unless you mean the opinion pieces which say: Hey, maybe telling a female employee "let me touch/grab/harass you or be fired" is a kinda shitty and illegal thing. If that's your definition of preaching, then congratulations, you are voting for the correct people. But you are also proving my original point.

Re:Impressive

[tlhIngan]

he talk about people needing to do trips that long regularly is mostly just straw men from EV fanboys...

No, the real issue people have with EVs is that people don't want to have to have a separate car for trips they only do a few times a year or because something they didn't expect happened. Like a relative or close friend falling ill or otherwise needing your immediate help someplace that isn't far enough for a plane ride to make sense, but is also too far away and/or too remote for an EV. Renting a car is obviously an option, but it's expensive and can be pretty inconvenient if it is has to be done at short notice.

No, the issue is not everyday inconvenience, it's being inconvenient when that inconvenience strikes at the most... Well... inconvenient times.

No, the real issue is people are exaggerating. Because going by that need to do a long car trip a few times a year, they'd be driving 3 ton pickups because they'd have heavy cargo they need to haul a few times a year, too. (Ask anyone with a pickup - it seems someone needs your truck every weekend to haul something or other).

If it were true, there would be no need for any vehicle other than heavy pickups because obviously everyone needs to have a vehicle ready to go at a moment's notice for whatever job.

Most people would plan around things. If the car can only 300 miles per charge, they'd be reasonable people and drive maybe 200 miles to a charging station. Then stretch their legs for an hour while the car charges back up. (Perhaps eat lunch or something). Heck, on the trips I go on, we rarely do more than 100 miles a leg before someone needs a potty break, or to stretch their legs or other reason. Plan it out properly and even these little half hour breaks are great charging opportunities.

Granted, there are odd people in the US who insist on driving non-stop to their destination - going from Washington to Florida and only stopping for gas. Perhaps an EV is not for them, but then again, I also don't really want to be in a sedan for a 3 day 24/7 driving trip in that case (an RV, maybe, SUV minimum, but even then my legs would protest after about the 3rd hour on the road).

I never understood that sort of behavior - seems dangerous to me and if it was a matter of making the most of the time, I'd probably fly than be stuck in a car with no rest stops.

In other words, I think the chances of such a thing happening are slim. Long road trips, if you're reasonable people will have breaks scheduled in (and it's not like Tesla puts the charging stations in the middle of nowhere -they're strategically located so when you stop, you have activities to do - eating a meal a big one that would take long enough to get you at least 80% charged (1 hour).

Lest we forget, there was a time not too long ago where cars didn't get the 600+ miles per tank...

Re:Impressive

[thoper]

If you need to drive five hour trips regularly, and you aren't a delivery driver, your lifestyle sucks.

*holding back tears* i know..... :(

Re:Impressive

[Anonymous Coward]

I have on occasion gone over 12 hours without taking a piss, I don't see why 6 should be a problem.

Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[SuperKendall]

The newer range is really great, about as much as most cars.

But the thing you'd want to larger range for is really road trips, which per day would usually be composed of at least two 300 mile segments. So you have to figure out at least two charging points per day of trip, as well as overnight.

Now they have done a great job of bringing superchargers online where a lot of trips I could probably plot a path that included enough superchargers. Evening is still an issue though, lots of places it is hard to find somewhere to plug in. But with that kind of range, maybe it would be enough just to find one in the city I was staying in and charge up before I went to the hotel.

I think it's close enough it would work for most road trips, except for some remote areas.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[AvitarX]

I'm liking the plug in hybrid idea a lot more than pure electric personally.

The Prius gets 25, and would probably cover half of my miles (no road trips, and leave me about 15 short on a weekend as I'm often not home). The Chevy volt (at 50) would cover essentially all of my none long distance driving, even a pretty chore busy weekend.

Wither way, there'd be no range anxiety, with half or less the trips to the gas station, and lower cost to maintain (less oil changes, less breaks, I assume an engine running at optimum power band to charge is a happier engine too).

I imagine for the vast majority of people a 50 mile range in a plug in is superior to a 500 range in an all electric, with a huge percentage of the benefits.

The only way I'd see the all electric being better would be if it cost less being simpler, but it seems we're not quite there yet with batteries.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Rei]

You might have an interest in checking out Björn Nyland on Youtube. He works as a courier in Norway, driving Teslas a crazy number of kilometers every year.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[SuperKendall]

I think there are a few ways in which all electric is superior, the main one being performance over pretty much any hybrid I have seen... that's not important to everyone, but it is to a lot of people. That's primarily a Tesla feature though, not generalized to all electric cars.

The aspect I do like is simplicity, with no gasoline engine at all there is less to go wrong.

I still think in the end that hydrogen fuel-cell electrics will win out but Tesla's making a great case for fully battery powered vehicles.

I'm hoping to hold out several more years before I get a new vehicle so I'm interested to see how this all plays out.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[AvitarX]

Plug in fuel cell, or pure fuel cell?

Because I don't think there's a great way to make hydrogen (correct me if I'm wrong). Sure, it can be made from hydrocarbons cleaner and more efficiently than a small engine can power (and likely charge) a car, but essentially a hydrogen tank is a quick to charge battery, or it uses fossil fuels, I don't think it'll really take off. Much better (IMO) to have 90+% power grid electric driving, the rest fossil fuel.

I wonder what Tesla could do performance wise if they made a plug-in hybrid, and where the price would fall. My understanding is the batteries are in the realm of 5 figures ($190/kwh, 100kwh battery), if knocking 80% of the battery cut half the price, that leaves some wiggle room for a small engine to charge it, and 60 miles from an overnight charge. The engine and gas may weigh less too.

There's no reason a plugin hybrid can't perform awesome, Toyota just went the route of massive mileage (600 miles on a small tank), and Chevy the route of average (150hp, 270ftlbs torque, comfortable driving around, but 7.5 0-60).

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[guacamole]

The newer range is really great, about as much as most cars.

Absolutely not. Your information is seriously out of date.

I'll give you two examples of pretty mainstream cars. First, is the 2016 three row Honda Pilot "gas guzzler". I am getting anywhere between 23 and 27mpg cruising on interstates, and it has 20 gallon gas tank, so the range is +400 miles. The second one is the 2017 Honda Accord. It has 17 gallon tank, and I am observing 33mpg in mixed driving, resulting again +500 mile range.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

All-electric definitely has the benefit of not having to drag around a fuel engine, or fuel. Plug-in Hybrids require you to carry two fuel sources, and when one isn't being used it's essentially dead weight.

I think the ultimate winner will probably be all-electric, with hydrogen fuel cell for emergency power.. Some sort of backup power would put a lot of people at ease, but there's not a lot of good reason to haul around a gasoline engine. Further, there's only so much oil that eventually we need a better solution.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

When there's enough market, you'll be able to rent the equivalent of a "power wall" on wheels. Tow it behind your car for all the range you'd ever want. Maybe even include some storage for luggage and camping gear. You only need to pay for it on those really long or out of the way road trips. Zero maintenance.

Hell, when rent-able power trailers become available, you may even decide to cut your up-front costs on electric vehicle purchase and buy a model with 'reduced' range that matches your daily driving needs. Opting on a renta-battery for special occasions.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

Performance of a pure electric car is always going to be better than an equivalent hybrid. Both have to lug a motor and batteries around, but the hybrid has to bring an entire engine and gearboxes (hybrid system requires at least 2) around.

While intuitively you'd think the batteries in the electric would be heavier than those in the hybrid to provide extra range, it's actually largely a wash. Hybrids us me lead-acid battery chemistry to cope with the excessive charge-discharge cycling, which means much lower energy density than the li-on that electric can use.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Paul Carver]

On the other hand, the Honda Element gets just short of 290 miles running the tank dry. Safer to fill up at around 270. I wish I could plug it in when it's parked in my garage because I spend far more time at home than on the road, but unfortunately it wants gasoline and I dont have a gasoline outlet in my garage, just an electrical outlet.

I'd love to get a Tesla, but I think I've got at least another ten years before the Element wears out. I did take it on a road trip in 2006, but that was my last road trip and I don't have any more planned so I'm not at all concerned about Tesla range.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[jittles]

But with that kind of range, maybe it would be enough just to find one in the city I was staying in and charge up before I went to the hotel.

Marriott seems to be working very hard to not only add a ton of EV charging stations, but to give them very convenient parking locations. The Marriott hotels I've stayed at in 2017 all seem to have 20+ charging stations. I don't know about other brands, however.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[fluffernutter]

There will always be people who don't mind working out strategies on how far and where they drive. It doesn't make it better on the people who don't want to have to worry about that.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[SuperKendall]

Because I don't think there's a great way to make hydrogen (correct me if I'm wrong)

There's not quite yet but there area lot of very promising cheaper ways to produce hydrogen coming to fruition over the next ten years.

It has a lot of benefits, in that you can fuel up as fast as cars, and easily convert gas stations to store hydrogen. Any place with a lot of water can be a potential production source.

Perhaps what will happen is cars will trend all electric, but charging stations will be altered to work off huge fuel cells so they are not such a huge draw off the electric grid.

That's a big factor I don't see considered, what really has to change if 80+% of all cars are electric (as I expect they will be in 10-20 years). No matter what there is a huge infrastructure challenge ahead and I feel like hydrogen as fuel can be worked out before extra electrical grid capacity along with the many, many more charging stations that would be required for much wider use of electric cars.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Balthisar]

My Fusion Energi only got 26 miles (on a good day), but even on cold days, it got me to work, where I could plug in. Unless I had to run out to a supplier or a plant, I was able to use it without an ICE for 100% of my "normal days."

On the other hand, on those two or three days per month where I had to run between Flat Rock, Dearborn, Auburn Hills, Clinton Township, and then home, 320 miles would not have been enough (but of course, with the hybrid ICE, my tank was worth 600 miles, and I could gas it up anywhere). For now, for my use (which is not everyone's use), I love having the ICE, even when my "normal" day didn't require its use at all.

Now I have a convertible, and I've dropped the roof maybe 15 times. And you know what? I like the idea that I was able to drop the roof those 15 times, even if I've not dropped it the other 450 times I've used the vehicle. To me, some things are worth the extra money.

My next car won't be a PHEV or a convertible, but I hope the next-next one will be a PHEV with, say, 100 mile plug-in range. For me, that would be really sweet spot.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[AvitarX]

If the weight scales in the model 3, you could make a 25kwh version that had approximately 110 mile range and have bout 550 for the combustion part and accessories.

I'm not certain that batteries are quite dense enough for your statement to be true.

Tesla model 3 220 miles, 50 kwh, 3549 lbs
Tesla model 3 long range 334 miles, 75kwh, 3814, lbs

Range difference 112
Weight difference 265lbs

So a hybrid 108 mile electric range would have 530 lbs to spare vs the long range version. It seems very credible a plug in hybrid could beat the current long range electric vehicles on weight.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[DerekLyons]

There's not quite yet but there area lot of very promising cheaper ways to produce hydrogen coming to fruition over the next ten years.

There's been a lot of very promising hydrogen related technologies coming to fruition over the next ten years for almost thirty years.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[drinkypoo]

On the other hand, the Honda Element gets just short of 290 miles running the tank dry. Safer to fill up at around 270.

My old-ass A8 Quattro will get around 400 miles on a full tank if I am gentle with the pedals, and while going as fast as I reasonably want to on public roads. My 240SX would get over 500, I miss the shit out of that car. It was pre-OBD2, with just one O2 sensor and no knock sensor.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[drinkypoo]

There's not quite yet but there area lot of very promising cheaper ways to produce hydrogen coming to fruition over the next ten years. [...] Any place with a lot of water can be a potential production source.

They all require something expensive as input, in the case of electrolysis that's very clean water. You may not have noticed, but that's already at a premium on this planet, and it's becoming more scarce and thus expensive. You can of course make it any old time through steam distillation, but on that scale it takes a bunch of energy which is also expensive. Storage is also still an expensive problem to solve. GM and Honda's partnership is expected to produce a cost-effective fuel cell in the next generation, but the tanks will still be delicate and expensive. We keep hearing about solid hydrogen storage materials and the like, but as it turns out, solid electrolyte batteries appear to be coming sooner. They'll solve most of the problems with batteries, and really put the nail in hydrogen's coffin for about everyone but the military.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

You missed the point on battery chemistry though. If you did what you're suggesting, you'd rapidly kill the batteries, they're not designed to charge like that. Other plug-in hybrids use lead-acid batteries for a reason, and they still only last 5-7 years.

Of course, if you put lead acid batteries into a Tesla, the on battery range would drop to maybe 20 miles before it switched over... Hey, you just reinvented a Prius. Why would you do that?

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[djinn6]

They all require something expensive as input, in the case of electrolysis that's very clean water. You may not have noticed, but that's already at a premium on this planet, and it's becoming more scarce and thus expensive.

You should try to learn a bit about a topic before writing about them, because you can't be more wrong.

Tap water is just fine for electrolysis. One might even need to add salt or other impurities to it to get it to work. If you actually tried to use pure water, it'll backfire on you, because pure water doesn't conduct electricity, and the electric current in the water is what generates those H2 and O2 bubbles.

Water is also not very expensive, in fact, it's negligible compared to the energy cost. My city sells it at $0.006 per gallon.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[AvitarX]

I ignored it because it's wrong.

The Volt uses lithium ion batteries.

Chevy volt gets .045 kwh/lbs about half that of the Tesla.

I don't know how much of that is due to chemistry vs technology, but even if we assume Chevy has batteries just as high tech as Tesla, that still gives 54 miles and the same weight reduction.

I'm going to stand by that for now there is no reason to think a daily range (50 or so miles) plug in hybrid would be heavier than a long range (300ish) electric.

With batteries in proving at their current rate, it will become false, but today is not that day.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[AvitarX]

Note

I used first year volt battery weight, and subtracted 29 lbs, that's the best I could find for the current volt battery weight

I used the differences in my earlier post for the Tesla.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[AmiMoJo]

Is a 500 mile range really that useful though? The >300 mile range of the Model 3 requires 5 hours of driving to deplete, and then 45-60 minutes of charging to recover. Practically most people would say stop every couple of hours to charge for 15 minutes, taking a bathroom and refreshment break at the same time.

So unless you plan to drive for 8 hours non-stop, which is not safe and illegal for commercial drivers in the EU, it seems like there is little practical advantage to an EV with a >300 mile range. 300 miles gives you some margin and extra for cold weather etc.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[thegarbz]

which per day would usually be composed of at least two 300 mile segments.

NO! If you're doing 300 mile segments in one stretch you'd a danger to yourself, your family, and every other car on the road after about 150miles.

Do whatever roadtrips you want, but unless you have a completely self driving car, don't pretend that this requirement is in any way sane.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[thegarbz]

My 10 year old Clio gets 625miles out of the tank. But all of that is completely irrelevant since I never drive more than about 150miles without taking a break anyway.... even on really long roadtrips.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well. I'm not willing to take detours all the time to fill up my car. I want it to be refueled at home when I'm parked.

People are already working out strategies for their driving, they just realize that it is what they do.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[AmiMoJo]

I wonder what Tesla could do performance wise if they made a plug-in hybrid, and where the price would fall. My understanding is the batteries are in the realm of 5 figures ($190/kwh, 100kwh battery)

You are way off. Based on the pricing of the new semi truck, it looks like they have got the battery down to about $75/kWh.

Adding a fossil fuel engine would decrease performance massively. Look at cars like the La Ferrari or the Chiron, a Tesla Model S can match their 0-60 times and they can't get close to the new Roaster's 1.9 seconds. They poured so much effort into refining the petrol engine and adding hybrid tech to it, and can't compete with a car costing 1/5th as much that is all electric.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Wrath0fb0b]

The >300 mile range of the Model 3 requires 5 hours of driving to deplete

I don't think 60MPH is a reasonable estimate for an average road trip speed. Most of the rural interstates in the US are 75 or 80MPH limit, so you'll see cars in the 80-90MPH range.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[edtice1559]

There are cars out there that go 500 miles on a tank. We own four cars. My wife's Mazda CX-5 gets about 400 miles on a tank due to good mileage. My Chevrolet SSR gets about that too due to a huge tank but definitely not due to good mileage. My Miata and my FJ cruiser each go about 300 miles on a tank.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile I drive a 2012 Kia Optima and with the gas mileage and tank size I only get about 300 miles of mixed before I have to fill up again. Before that I had a 2008 Camry and with its larger gas tank and 4 cylinder engine I could get 400+ miles on interstates, but when mixing in city driving and traffic I'd only get about 300 miles before I'd be at a little less than a quarter of a tank remaining.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[drinkypoo]

Tap water is just fine for electrolysis.

That is stupid and wrong. The contaminants will ruin the fuel cell, and putting chlorinated water in there produces chlorine gas which then has to be dealt with.

One might even need to add salt or other impurities to it to get it to work.

Completely false. That's why there is so much surface area, only the water right at the surface is converted.

Water is also not very expensive, in fact, it's negligible compared to the energy cost. My city sells it at $0.006 per gallon.

Despite your fantasies, that water is inadequate for actually making H2, and it would have to go through another steam distillation step. Like an efficient method for producing H2, fuel cells which can handle tapwater without failing prematurely are perpetually a decade away.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[captainstormy]

Maybe that is uncommon in the EU, but not in the US. With the holidays coming up I've got to go visit my family and my wife's family in December. It's a 450 mile drive to see my wife's family, and a 600 mile drive to see mine. We go to see each of them for Christmas and Thanksgiving. As well as seeing each one another time or two during the year. That means in any given year we make between 6 and 8 trips that are well over the 300 mile range. We could fly to visit her family, but it would cost more than double driving. Plus flying with a bunch of Christmas presents would be a huge issue. I also go hunting with her father and brothers and while you can fly with a firearm in the US, it adds on another hassle. Flying isn't an option to visit my family. I'm from a very rural area. Flying to the nearest commercial airport would still leave me with around 200 miles of driving to do. You have to keep in mind that "the average persons" driving experience in the US and Europe are vastly different. I live in a large city in the US, and out of all the people I know at work, my friends, etc etc. Only a very small handful of the people are from this area. Most people seem to have come from small town America (like me). People making several hundred mile trips to see family members several times per year is very common. Even if we are talking about distances of 400-600 miles or so it's often cheaper (especially if traveling with more than one person) and as fast or faster (when you factor in airport wait times and layovers) to drive. Granted a 300 mile range electric car would meet the vast majority of my needs. But I make regular trips where that wouldn't work. I don't want to own two cars when my current one meets all my needs. The fact of the matter is, that until Electric cars can mimic the way we use gasoline powered cars it's a non starter for many Americans. 300 miles of range is fine. But I need to be able to recharge it in 10-15 minutes and get back on the road. I also need to be able to find a charger everywhere I go. Even in very rural areas.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tap water hasn't been chlorinated for many decades.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[djinn6]

Have you actually done electrolysis or are you just talking out of your ass? Maybe you should try it with pure water and see how far you get.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[drinkypoo]

Have you actually done electrolysis or are you just talking out of your ass? Maybe you should try it with pure water and see how far you get.

This isn't with a pair of nails and a battery charger. This is with a fuel cell. It's completely different.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[drinkypoo]

Tap water hasn't been chlorinated for many decades.

Plenty of tap water is still chlorinated, although the majority is now chloraminated.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[SuperKendall]

300 miles at 80MPH is under four hours. Do you seriously think most people cannot drive for four hours straight? That is nothing.

I am fully alert after ten hours driving, much less four... I'm sure there are people with lower limits but I doubt there are any drivers with limits lower than four hours of driving before they start to feel tired.

Another thing you are not considering is why extra range is important. Even if you only drive 150 miles at a time, it can be really useful to have that extra range in case somewhere remote is out of gas, or you are going through roads or conditions which dramatically lower milage. You can easily lose 10-20 MPG depending on roads or things like heavy snow. That is especially true of the Tesla (or any electric car) which has to give up range to provide heat in cold weather.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends where you are. In Europe, ozonisation and UV desinfection have largely replaced the use of chlorine and chlorine complexes.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[NivenHuH]

I live in San Francisco and frequently do road trips in my Model X (90kWh).

To date, I've traveled from SF to:
- Dallas
- Portland
- Los Angeles (a bunch)
- Random rural parts of Northern CA
- Yosemite
- Reno/Tahoe

The trip planner on the Model X auto-routes you to charging stops. The on-board energy calculator is pretty accurate, and you can adjust your speed as needed if things are getting dicey (eg: you're approaching 5-10% battery before reaching a charging station). I haven't had range anxiety -- (nor do I really think about the range).

The charging breaks were annoying at first, because you end up stopping for 30-40 mins on road trips. I actually appreciate the charging stops now -- gives you a chance to stretch / recharge your brain. I definitely feel less fatigued when I reach my destination, even though it takes a little longer due to the charging.

I'm not sure I understand the comments about EVs and their viability for road trips -- I definitely prefer driving the Tesla (or rather, letting it drive me w/ Autopilot).

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[drinkypoo]

Depends where you are. In Europe, ozonisation and UV desinfection have largely replaced the use of chlorine and chlorine complexes.

I live in the greatest nation in the world, we love drinkin' chlorine. It makes us stronger!

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[thegarbz]

300 miles at 80MPH is under four hours.

Precisely.

Do you seriously think most people cannot drive for four hours straight? That is nothing.

Here, hold my beer while I do stupid shit. What I think is irrelevant. Driving skill and reaction time IS significantly impaired after between 1.5h to 2h of continuous driving. No agency in the world be it health, transport or road safety recommends driving for more than 2h without a break. Most company policies from large companies do not allow employees to drive for 2h without a break.

I am fully alert after ten hours driving, much less four...

Yeah, I'm also fully alert and fine driving after drinking half a litre of vodka because just like 95% of males and 90% of females who ever filled out a survey on it, I'm a far better driver than everyone else and the averages and studies do not apply to me.

Mind you if you're ever driving for more than 4 hours in the EU for business without at least a 45min break your company can face quite a huge fine, not to mention if they don't have a fatigue policy for driving longer than 2 hours they are opening a can of legal worms.

But don't worry man you and I are 2 of a kind. We are awesome! We're better than everyone.
The difference is one of us is facetious and the other is a dangerous idiot who doesn't know when he's impaired.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure there are people with lower limits but I doubt there are any drivers with limits lower than four hours of driving before they start to feel tired.

Let me introduce you to my mother in law. 15 minutes, tops.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[drsquare]

Hydrogen is a dead end, it's hard to handle, is made from fossil fuels, and hydrolysis is inefficient. How easily can you convert a gas station to hydrogen? If they're lucky you can just put the hydrogen in the petrol tanks and use the same pumps. Otherwise you're replacing everything but the shop where you buy a Mars bar.

It's easier to extend an electricity grid than it is to build a hydrogen infrastructure from scratch. You can put solar panels anywhere, you can connect wind turbines to the grid, hydrogen has nothing waiting for it. Superchargers are going up everywhere, where are the hydrogen stations?

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[G00F]

I was on the fuel cell hype back in 1995 up until 2012ish. It's not a source of energy, it's a battery. And the most efficient way to make Hydrogen is from methane and or other fossil fuels. This is how almost all hydrogen is produced.

You get people who want to make it via electrolysis using power from solar cells. That nets you at least a lost of 40% right off the top. Current batteries are 95%+, including all losses like transmission lines from plan to house are still 80%+.

There is some hope using biological methods like fermentation or algae. Most of that is stuck at proof of concept, where they think in the next few years it will be economically feasible. Some claim they are, years later they are still proof of concepts. That same process can make biofuels more efficiently.

Photocatalytic water splitting is another spot that shows promise, yet remains in lab projects.

There is also the use of chemicals, or chemicals plus the above to make them more efficient. They just hide or more where the energy costs come from. Same thing with heat, as they considering heat from power plants as free.....

Fuel cell cars would be the least industry disruptive and had billions pored in, yet fuel cell cars still prove to be unfeasible just on the hydrogen production.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[fluffernutter]

I wouldn't mine being able to fill up at home, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I am saying.

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[AvitarX]

I used this link, which is working with hypothetical future numbers

Why would a plug in hybrid that never has the engine touch the drive train (Chevy Volt) have any worse performance than a pure electric?

And why on Earth would you compare a car that uses gasoline engine to power itself?

What's your argument that you couldn't scoop 2/3 the battery out of a long range Tesla, but a small ICE and charger in there and get a short plug in range, but quick full for long rides?

You're providing examples of nobody trying, sure, but where's an example of anyone failing?

Tesla hasn't done it because they want to do all electic, Chevy hasn't done it because they don't focus on performance (they're also trying to hit mid-range price, and have been building their current model for a couple years vs the more performance model 3 barely being in production), BMWs clearly isn't focusing on performance either (I think it's all electrical drive, but I could be wrong), the Prius Prime is a traditional hybrid (both motor and engine can power the drive train) and is super low performance, but clearly focused on efficiency over those other cars.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2...

Re: Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[AmiMoJo]

The ICE that could fit in the space of 2/3rds the space of a Tesla battery would not generate much power. The smaller battery would limit the amount of electric power available too. Look at cars like the Volt and BMW i3 REX, the ICE is just a waste of space and weight that ends up giving less range than a Tesla battery.

Hybrids were a stop-gap measure until battery tech got cheap enough. It's not reached that point, and batteries have other advantages like the form factor and simpler drive train that all make the car better.

Re:Getting pretty decent for road trips.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The newer range is really great, about as much as most cars."

wut? for the same price you have diesel cars in Europe that do 600+miles with one tank.

MPGe

[Mr D from 63]

MPGe is stupid. There, I said it.

Re:MPGe

[Rei]

What, you don't think of electricity in gallons? ;)

Re:MPGe

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got several gallon jugs full of electrons that I'm willing to part with, make an offer!

Meanwhile

[sexconker]

Meanwhile, my $20,000 non-hybrid, gasoline (not diesel) car gets over 50 MPG on the highway.
It's got a small tank, but it still beats the Model 3 on long range.

Re:Meanwhile

[Rei]

Wild guess: you're in the UK.
(if not, more details about the vehicle, please)

Re:Meanwhile

[Mashiki]

Hell I'm in Canada and my old '96 Saturn SW2 that finally gave up with a subframe failure after hitting a cumbling chunk of overpass a few years ago, would still get around 38-42mpg on most trips. When it was newerish back in '96/97 I'd once gotten 51mpg(460mi on 9US gallons oh the joy of filling the tank for $5 in Indianapolis no less), most of the time it was right around 40mpg(which was common for the SL/SW series), even when I drove cross-country from southern ontario through the US, through N.Dakota, to northern alberta I managed to get around 43mpg which was still amazing in 2010. Minus mountain driving of course, which really sucked down the performance right around 28mpg through Banff National park.

Re:Meanwhile

[Alioth]

He writes with an American accent, so I don't think he's in the UK.

My (Euro model) 2007 Honda Civic uses 5.5L/100km which is >50 Imperial MPG while having a large interior (fold the seats back and it makes a good compact van, it's a hatchback and a lot more space efficient than the US models - I have no idea why Honda doesn't sell the good version of the Civic over there).

Re:Meanwhile

[Rei]

There are two issues at play that I was trying to dig into.

1) European mileages are measured with the NEDC, a joke of a cycle that yields MPG figures about 15% greater than EPA figures on the same car.
2) In the UK, not only is the NEDC used, but on top of that they use imperial gallons, which are 20% larger than US gallons.

Re:Meanwhile

[sexconker]

I'm in the US. I'm not using EPA estimates, but my odometer and the flow meter on the gas pump. The car is a hatchback from a major manufacturer.

Coal Per Charge?

[Zorro]

So how much actual coal is that per mile?

Probably takes 2000 pounds of coal to make the electricity to charge it up once?

Especially the coal electricity California imports from Utah.

Re:Coal Per Charge?

[Rei]

The myth that just won't die.

Re:Coal Per Charge?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you live in a crap area that still uses coal to produce electricity all of us have to refrain from having electric cars?

Re:Coal Per Charge?

[heypete]

So how much actual coal is that per mile?

Probably takes 2000 pounds of coal to make the electricity to charge it up once?

Especially the coal electricity California imports from Utah.

The math's pretty easy: according to http://www.coaleducation.org/lessons/twe/ctele.htm, it takes about one pound of coal to generate one kilowatt hour of electricity. The long range battery has a capacity of 75kWh, so that'd be about 75 pounds of coal. Assuming a gas vehicle gets 50mpg, the gasoline needed to travel 310 miles weighs 39 pounds, a far cry from your 2000 pounds claim. Either way, a centrally-located power plant would be able to more readily control its emissions than a smaller, mobile gasoline engine.

Depending on your power mix, that's a worst-case scenario. In California, which you mention, PG&E generates ~70% of its power from renewable and greenhouse gas-free sources, like nuclear, hydro, and unspecified "renewable" sources. 17% is from natural gas, which is very much cleaner than gasoline or coal, and "unspecified" other sources. Sounds much less polluting than gasoline.

EVs have the advantage that the source of the power feeding the grid can be changed without requiring all users to switch to something else: switching all gasoline cars to something that's compatible with their engines and fuel systems but is less polluting and damaging to the environment would be quite difficult. Replacing aging coal power plants with cleaner-burning natural gas plants dramatically reduces emissions while still pushing the same electrons through wires. Adding nuclear, wind, solar, etc. can further improve the cleanliness of electricity supply without any change from consumers.

Re:Coal Per Charge?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The long range battery has a capacity of 75kWh, so that'd be about 75 pounds of coal."

Ignoring all transmission and conversion losses.

Average transmission losses between the power plant and the consumer are 8-15%. Charging efficiency varies widely depending on many conditions (~54% - 98%, the peak figures that Tesla list assume ideal temperatures and relatively slow 12A 110v charging), lets assume a 20% average real world loss. These losses are cumulative. From that 75 pounds of coal, only 55.2kwh make it to the battery.

" "unspecified" other sources. Sounds much less polluting than gasoline."

Such sources include bagasse or other crop waste, sewage and landfill gas, sawdust/wood waste (from wood manufacturing) and black liquor (paper production). Don't confuse renewable with clean.

"switching all gasoline cars to something that's compatible with their engines and fuel systems but is less polluting and damaging to the environment would be quite difficult."

? Ethanol... E85 and flex fuel cars already exist, most modern cars are already E10 or more compatible.

Re:Coal Per Charge?

[drinkypoo]

? Ethanol... E85 and flex fuel cars already exist, most modern cars are already E10 or more compatible.

All modern cars are E10 compatible, because you can and will get E10 out of the pump in California during part of the year whether you like it or not. As it turns out, though, any car that isn't sitting can pretty much handle E10. Seriously traditional parts like leather accelerator pump diaphragms would probably wear out quicker, if there were any left intact today. There was one in my 1960 Dodge Dart's 650 Carter...

However, ethanol is crap. Cellulosic ethanol production has never met up with its promises, and the majority of fuel ethanol feedstock is corn. Virtually all of that is grown continuously, meaning without crop rotation or even permitting fields to lie fallow. This requires heavy fertilization, which means that ethanol is barely energy-positive. The argument in its favor was always free energy from the sun, but much of the energy in ethanol fuel actually comes from synthetic (petrochemical-based) fertilizer.

Re:Coal Per Charge?

[heypete]

From that 75 pounds of coal, only 55.2kwh make it to the battery.

Fair enough. Of course, the well-to-wheel costs for gasoline is non-trivial either. In California, for example, coal only makes up a fraction of the total power supply, at least from PG&E, so the electricity is relatively clean.

" "unspecified" other sources. Sounds much less polluting than gasoline."

Such sources include bagasse or other crop waste, sewage and landfill gas, sawdust/wood waste (from wood manufacturing) and black liquor (paper production). Don't confuse renewable with clean.

True, but renewable stuff is generally closer to CO2-neutral than gasoline production and use: crops will still get harvested, sewage and landfills will still get used, wood products and paper will still get manufactured, etc., so using the waste streams from those things as fuel for power generation makes a lot of sense. Additionally, power plants can be built or refitted with pollution controls that wouldn't be effective on millions of small, mobile engines and, as I mentioned before, electrons are fungible and it's possible to incrementally improve the cleanliness of the power generated for the grid without having to make wholesale changes on the consumer side once EVs are more widely used.

To me, that latter part is the key advantage of EVs: even in areas that generate power from relatively polluting sources now, the deployment of EVs will centralize emissions at large power plants with better pollution controls and that are typically relatively far from populated areas rather than right at in areas where people live. Over time, those polluting sources can be upgraded or replaced and all EVs on the road would immediately benefit.

"switching all gasoline cars to something that's compatible with their engines and fuel systems but is less polluting and damaging to the environment would be quite difficult."

? Ethanol... E85 and flex fuel cars already exist, most modern cars are already E10 or more compatible.

Sure, but E85 sucks for reasons that "drinkypoo" mentions in this thread. I like the idea of biodiesel that's drop-in compatible with existing engines, but that doesn't seem to have panned out as expected, plus it does little for the particulate emissions from diesel engines. Liquid fuels have many advantages for cars (e.g. fast fill-ups, high energy density, etc.), and gasoline has the advantage of essentially-universal availability in terms of gas stations being available in every little town across the country, but that also means there's a lot of inertia to switching to other fuels that becomes problematic.

As battery tech improves and the grid becomes cleaner in more areas, EVs look to be more and more practical for more and more users. That has a big appeal to me.

Re:Coal Per Charge?

[Alioth]

In the UK at least (and many European countries), 0 lbs of coal. The UK has had increasing numbers of days where no coal fired power station has been running at all. Coal is on the way out and will be gone completely within the next 20 years. An average of something like 50% of the UK's power is from low/no CO2 generation (nuclear, wind). The rest is CCGT (combined cycle gas turbine) which is very thermodynamically efficient especially when compared to a petrol engine in a car.

So at least here, you should be thinking of uranium and natual gas per mile, not coal.

Re:Coal Per Charge?

[Anonymous Coward]

However, ethanol is crap.

More like Piss, really. It's a liquid.

Cellulosic ethanol production has never met up with its promises, and the majority of fuel ethanol feedstock is corn. Virtually all of that is grown continuously, meaning without crop rotation or even permitting fields to lie fallow. This requires heavy fertilization, which means that ethanol is barely energy-positive. The argument in its favor was always free energy from the sun, but much of the energy in ethanol fuel actually comes from synthetic (petrochemical-based) fertilizer.

Nope. That was NEVER the argument for Ethanol in the US, the argument for Ethanol was its use as an oxygenate, only in places like Brazil were they expecting to get more net energy, and they're using sugarcane anyway.

Of course, it didn't help the anti-Ethanol people that they DID lie in their calculations, and damaged their own cause by repeating it.

Dubious Build Quality

[DatbeDank]

I'll wait a few more years. I know a few folks who love love love their Teslas, but they keep having to bring them in for service once a month for various problems (albeit minor in the grand scheme of things). You'd think for a car this expensive, the kinks would be all worked out.

Reminds me of Delorean's issues when they started out.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Rei]

What you're seeing is a combination of selection bias and the high media / public interest in Tesla. Consumer Reports rates the Model S as "above average" in terms of reliability (they expect Model 3 to be "average"). Model X, however, is still "below average", so that's legit.

It's also worth noting that Tesla consumer satisfaction ratings always top the industry, at around 90%.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

They are price-inefficient enthusiast cars with all the good and bad that comes along with them. Meanwhile, gaming PCs have varying build quality with a picky userbase and 90% satisfaction rate.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll wait a few more years. I know a few folks who love love love their Teslas, but they keep having to bring them in for service once a month for various problems (albeit minor in the grand scheme of things). You'd think for a car this expensive, the kinks would be all worked out.

Reminds me of Delorean's issues when they started out.

Can't be further from the truth. Been driving a Model S since 2015, racked up 100km in about 2.5 yrs. I've only had two regular maintenance services (replaced cabin air filters) at 30km and 60km and no warranty repair service. Model S IS the most reliable and trouble free car, I've ever owned.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean his actual in-person contacts have something to do with the bad media exposure of Tesla's manufacturing flaws? Try that one again, you god damn shill.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Been driving a Model S since 2015, racked up 100km in about 2.5 yrs.

What! 100 kilometer? just 60 miles or so in 2.5 years? No wonder it did not need any service!

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Rei]

No. What I'm saying is that A) people who weren't bringing their cars in wouldn't be mentioning their lack of bringing cars in to their friends, and B) people whose friends hadn't been bringing that up to them wouldn't be bothering to post anecdotes about their friends not bringing their cars in.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[thegarbz]

but they keep having to bring them in for service once a month

Wow, observer bias much? What did you read that in the Daily Mail which is repeating the article about one guy who breaks something every month and call it data?

Tesla's reliability is generally considered well above average.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[bluegutang]

Apparently Telsa's cars cost $2000/year to service on average. This sounds like a real issue that has not been sufficiently discussed.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Whibla]

It's also worth noting that Tesla consumer satisfaction ratings always top the industry, at around 90%.

It's worth pointing out that this could be due to any number of other factors that aren't due to the car's reliability:

Owner values the fact it's electric more.
Owner values performance more.
Owner enjoys the 'cachet' of owning a Tesla more.
Or, of course, buyer's remorse prevents owner voicing negative opinions.

In addition, ownership of any brand, and model, of car comes with its own selection bias - not everyone would buy that car. Those that did, by definition, self selected. Because of this, whilst we all tend to assign more weight and meaning to personal experiences, it's the aggregate stats garnered by an independent third party that are likely to be the most reliable and informative. Even with these though sometimes you have to drill down into the numbers to get the full story: If a car has above average reliability but is in the top decile for repair costs you really really don't want to be involved in an accident!

I'd still buy a Tesla though... :P

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

There's so much wrong with that guy's "calculation" that I don't even know where to start. It's like an assumption per sentence.

I'll stick with Consumer Reports, thanks.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also worth noting that Tesla consumer satisfaction ratings always top the industry, at around 90%.

It's also worth pointing out that most people who own a Tesla are Tesla fanboys. Even if the thing would never work at all, a majority would probably claim to be satisfied with their experience.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

Something that was surprising to me (though it perhaps shouldn't be) was that when I went to Richmond, Virginia to the Tesla dealership, I was allowed to peek into the garage where they were working on cars. It was immaculate. Not a spec on the floor, no oil, nothing but a perfectly clean tool chest, a bench, and one computer workstation at every station.
 
I think it should be somewhat expected that there will be some issues, right? Even with a massive, century old automaker there are still often bugs in new models or new features. This isn't even counting that these are brand new cars from a brand new company using a lot of brand new technology.
 
I realize you may not be American, but I don't understand why other Americans would be so fast to bash Tesla? It is an American company, building American cars. They use raw materials and churn out real things. The company is owned and operated by a multi-cultural CEO... not much gets more American than that. The cars are cool! THEY made people WANT an electric car! As a nerd I liked them before, but every company that made one turned out an unattractive and nonstandard looking car. It shouted "abnormal!" just by a glance. Bubble windows, strange skirts, plastic cheap interiors. Tesla came and made attractive cars (the first Roadster wasn't quite my taste but it was far from ugly to my eyes), and they looked and functioned like a standard car. No making do. I did own a Delorean. That car was built by someone who had a lot of experience with it and it still came off the factory line with problems no production car should have. Cardboard consoles, alternators that were undersized, plastic header bottles that cracked from the heat. It was a fun car, but admittedly not practical at all. This turned into more of a rant than I intended. It was not directed at you, DatbeDank... just observations.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

>consumer satisfaction ratings always top the industry

I've noticed people very invested in their belongings tend to like em.

Teslas are a MASSIVE investment.

Re:Dubious Build Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

Not by people who aren't Tesla fanboys...

Not practically.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have any actually gone that distance without needing service?

Sprint trips are not dangerous.

[SuperKendall]

Although I agree that it's not too bad looking at two 20 minute stops, I totally disagree that sprint trips are dangerous.

I have done a lot of trips from Denver to Vegas by car, between 10-11 hours. There is absolutely nothing dangerous about driving less that 12 hours straight, with only stops to fill the gas and/or get food. The scenery changes all the time and it's very easy to pay full attention to the road for that long.

Now I've also done 19 hour trips, and I agree there is some line in there where trips get dangerous because you do get too tired. But there's not a huge difference between one small break to get lunch or two... even a fuel stop you are getting out of the car for a little while.

Re:Sprint trips are not dangerous.

[fluffernutter]

I've done 24-hour trips with three drivers myself. Two sleep/relax while one drives.

Re:Sprint trips are not dangerous.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, driving tired never caused any problems...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heck_rail_crash

You drive 19 hours on the road, you're a fucking menace.

Re: Personally I don't care...

[dougdonovan]

tesla owns the epa but uh you already knew that.

Not worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

Current electric vehicle batteries still use lithium, which isn't that great over time. Newer battery tech should be preferable, like graphite batteries that Samsung is currently trying to make, except one that has a long life cycle.

Re:Not worth it

[Rei]

Which "isn't that great"? Lithium is an element. Nothing happens to it over time. It's intercalated into the anodes and cathodes. This is the main place where degradation occurs in modern li-ion batteries. The reference to graphene (not graphite) batteries is an anode tech (normal anodes are graphite).

Regardless, typical degradation on Tesla packs is 4% in the first year, then under 1% in each subsequent year.

What if there was a 1000 mile range?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would current inconvenience be palatable?

Yes, we know your ideology requires refusal.

[Anonymous Coward]

But you used to claim that it needed the same range as you got in your car which was about 250-300 miles per tank. And now it has, you whiff the goalposts again.

Frankly nobody cares what you don't care about. Find someone who cares.

How to triple it

[slashmydots]

A bunch of groups did tests and putting a really good gas generator in the back can get you more than triple that range. It's not exactly efficient money or energy-wise but it does work in actual tests.

I so do wish Tesla would make a hybrid.

[Neuronwelder]

I rode in a Honda Hybrid. With the little dinky drive and charge motor. That thing flew! And it easily gets 60mpg if you are easy on it. Tesla can do better than that. Maybe double the gas mileage. He's got the brains for it!

Lectric cars are taking off

[Trogre]

I have yet to see a Tesla in my town, but I have seen Nissan Leafs ("Leaves"?) literally every day for the past fortnight when travelling across town. If I had to guess, perhaps 1 in 50 cars I see at the moment is a Leaf.

That blows my mind.

Many have been of different colours and some had signwriting for small businesses. Either we've had a massive rise in their popularity or it's a very persistent and dedicated marketing campaign.

Re:Lectric cars are taking off

[Solandri]

Electric cars are taking off because CARB (the California agency regulating air quality) mandates that a certain percentage of each automaker's sales have to be zero emissions. Currently this is EVs (though Toyota has a hydrogen vehicle for sale). The target last year was less than 1%, but the target for 2025 is over 15%.

If an automaker fails to met the percentage, they have to buy credits from a manufacturer which exceeded their quota. This is what keeps Tesla afloat.

If an automaker fails to earn or buy enough credits, they're banned from selling cars in California. And because 9 other states automatically adopt CARB's ZEV guidelines, they're banned from selling in states representing about 30% of the U.S. by population. So every automaker is working their butts off to build and sell vehicles which meet CARB's mandates. Not because they like the technology or because they think there's demand, but because it's the only way they'll be allowed to keep selling ICE vehicles.

So not exactly a dedicated marketing campaign, but it's definitely not due to a massive rise in popularity. To meet their quota, automakers have offered some ridiculous pricing (on top of the $7500 Federal tax credit and the $1500-$3500 California credit) in order to get people to buy or lease EVs. A couple years ago I almost pulled the trigger on a 3-year lease for a VW e-Golf at just $79 per month. It was $1500 down, but VW was also giving a $500 credit to first-time VW buyers and California was throwing in a $1000 EV incentive, so it was basically no money down. And structuring it as a lease means that VW gets the Federal tax credit, meaning you don't have to be in the top 25% income bracket to claim the entire $7500. (I would've been willing to pay $79/mo just to have it sitting in my garage for a few occasional short trips each week. The only reason I didn't get it was because insurance would've doubled the price, tipping the economic balance back in favor of a single ICE vehicle instead of ICE + EV.)

Re:Lectric cars are taking off

[Trogre]

Interesting.

Not sure that applies in this case though, as I do not live in the US, let alone California, and there are no subsidies here.

Re:Lectric cars are taking off

[Anonymous Coward]

Electric cars are taking off because CARB (the California agency regulating air quality) mandates that a certain percentage of each automaker's sales have to be zero emissions [autoalliance.org].

I think EU fleet average CO2 limits have more to do with it. Most car makers only sell a small selection of their vehicles in the US anyway.

In absolute discomfort....

[Anonymous Coward]

Was this reported range, eMPG, with the Air Conditioner or Heater turned on. Many Volt drivers I talked to rather despised having to make a choice of Heat in the Winter or making it to their destination.

Re:In absolute discomfort....

[yzf750]

Why? Is their gas tank empty? I had the heated seat on in my Volt the other morning, I think I ended the day with one less mile remaining than normal. I have noticed more difference in the past month due to the headlights being on in both the morning and evening commute with the days being shorter. During the summer the ac probably reduced my miles remaining by 3 or 4 on my daily 28 mile round trip.

Trains and trams?

[VeryFluffyBunny]

And there was me thinking that trains and trams were the most efficient electric vehicles on the market. They can carry more than 5 people, plus they don't need expensive batteries and chargers, you don't have to pay insurance or even have to buy them, they don't run out of electricity, and you just pay a minimal fee for a pass that lets you ride on any of them any time you want, and best of all, you don't have to drive! :)

And it comes with its own built-in fireworks!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

The subject says it all.