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Maine Dairy Company Settles Lawsuit Over Oxford Comma (bostonmagazine.com)
Daniel Victor reports via The New York Times: Ending a case that electrified punctuation pedants, grammar goons and comma connoisseurs, Oakhurst Dairy settled an overtime dispute with its drivers that hinged entirely on the lack of an Oxford comma in state law. The dairy company in Portland, Me., agreed to pay $5 million to the drivers (Warning: source may be paywalled; alternative source), according to court documents filed on Thursday. The relatively small-scale dispute gained international notoriety last year when the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit ruled that the missing comma created enough uncertainty to side with the drivers, granting those who love the Oxford comma a chance to run a victory lap across the internet. But the resolution means there will be no ruling from the land's highest courts on whether the Oxford comma -- the often-skipped second comma in a series like "A, B, and C" -- is an unnecessary nuisance or a sacred defender of clarity, as its fans and detractors endlessly debate.
The case began in 2014, when three truck drivers sued the dairy for what they said was four years' worth of overtime pay they had been denied. Maine law requires time-and-a-half pay for each hour worked after 40 hours, but it carved out exemptions for: The canning, processing, preserving, freezing, drying, marketing, storing, packing for shipment or distribution of: agricultural produce; meat and fish products; and perishable foods. What followed the last comma in the first sentence was the crux of the matter: "packing for shipment or distribution of." The court ruled that it was not clear whether the law exempted the distribution of the three categories that followed, or if it exempted packing for the shipment or distribution of them. Had there been a comma after "shipment," the meaning would have been clear.
The case began in 2014, when three truck drivers sued the dairy for what they said was four years' worth of overtime pay they had been denied. Maine law requires time-and-a-half pay for each hour worked after 40 hours, but it carved out exemptions for: The canning, processing, preserving, freezing, drying, marketing, storing, packing for shipment or distribution of: agricultural produce; meat and fish products; and perishable foods. What followed the last comma in the first sentence was the crux of the matter: "packing for shipment or distribution of." The court ruled that it was not clear whether the law exempted the distribution of the three categories that followed, or if it exempted packing for the shipment or distribution of them. Had there been a comma after "shipment," the meaning would have been clear.
Jesus H Christ, what a waste of money and time.
Ending a case that electrified punctuation pedants, grammar goons and comma connoisseurs,
You're just trolling us now, right?
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
It's tempting to argue that you can parse "foo, bar, baz or sna" as "(item)foo(/item); (item)bar(/item); (item)baz or sna(/item)" but that's really a parse error because it's missing a conjunction.
Basically you're arguing is that it really says "foo, bar, [OR] baz or sna," and one could just as easily argue that the missing conjunction is AND rather than OR, and that could really fuck with the meaning. Therefore, there is really only logically consistent interpretation in this case.
If you try to read the sentence as ending with "... storing, packing for (shipment or distribution) of", where is the conjunction that ties together the activities being enumerated?
But I'm pretty sure this was discussed to death the last several times it was on /..
People often get confused and read things into what meaning they want it to have. Such ambiguities are bad enough when it's a Jedi claiming that your father killed himself by getting a name change, but absolutely terrible when you have to deal with people's lives.
Daniel, Victor, reports, via, The, New, York, Times:,
Ending, a, case, that, electrified, punctuation, pedants, grammar, goons, and, comma, connoisseurs, Oakhurst, Dairy, settled, an, overtime, dispute, with, its, drivers, that, hinged, entirely, on, the, lack, of, an, Oxford, comma, in, state, law., The, dairy, company, in, Portland, Me., agreed, to, pay, $5, million, to, the, drivers, (Warning:, source, may, be, paywalled;, alternative, source), according, to, court, documents, filed, on, Thursday., The, relatively, small-scale, dispute, gained, international, notoriety, last, year, when, the, United, States, Court, of, Appeals, for, the, First, Circuit, ruled, that, the, missing, comma, created, enough, uncertainty, to, side, with, the, drivers, granting, those, who, love, the, Oxford, comma, a, chance, to, run, a, victory, lap, across, the, internet., But, the, resolution, means, there, will, be, no, ruling, from, the, land's, highest, courts, on, whether, the, Oxford, comma, --, the, often-skipped, second, comma, in, a, series, like, "A, B, and, C", --, is, an, unnecessary, nuisance, or, a, sacred, defender, of, clarity, as, its, fans, and, detractors, endlessly, debate.,
The, case, began, in, 2014, when, three, truck, drivers, sued, the, dairy, for, what, they, said, was, four, years', worth, of, overtime, pay, they, had, been, denied., Maine, law, requires, time-and-a-half, pay, for, each, hour, worked, after, 40, hours, but, it, carved, out, exemptions, for:, The, canning, processing, preserving, freezing, drying, marketing, storing, packing, for, shipment, or, distribution, of:, agricultural, produce;, meat, and, fish, products;, and, perishable, foods., What, followed, the, last, comma, in, the, first, sentence, was, the, crux, of, the, matter:, "packing, for, shipment, or, distribution, of.", The, court, ruled, that, it, was, not, clear, whether, the, law, exempted, the, distribution, of, the, three, categories, that, followed, or, if, it, exempted, packing, for, the, shipment, or, distribution, of, them., Had, there, been, a, comma, after, "shipment,", the, meaning, would, have, been, clear.,
As a German writer I love the Oxford comma. It's always incorrect in German, even though there is a clear difference in meaning with or without the comma. The English language is much clearer in that respect. Long live the Oxford comma!
Should there be a comma in picking cotton?
Not so much as there should be a a hyphen in cotton picking.
Punctuation and grammar are important for communication clarity. Know your shit, not, know you're shit.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
And this is why we put commas there, to be clear.
If you are a politician, I can see why you might not want to be clear, but the rest of us? Huh.
AC
It's an easy mistake to make. It should have been "Derry, Maine Company Settles Lawsuit Over Oxford Comma." Stephen King was said to act as an attorney in his own defense during the trial.
Had there been a comma after "shipment," the meaning would have been clear.
How so? It's a list of exceptions. Whether you count "shipment or distribution of" as one exception, or, "shipment", and "distribution of" as 2 exceptions, it still means the same thing. Where's the ambiguity?
That's some crooked industry lobbyist shit right there to exclude specific tasks from overtime compensation.
In other news, England and the U.S. go back to war following the discovery that the treaty that ended the War of 1812 contained a quotation mark followed by a period instead of the other way around. President Trump was quick to respond. "This perceived insult to the American quotation mark protocol will not stand!" British Prime Minister Teresa May also issued a response. "If war is necessary to defend our quotations, then so be it".
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
For those who could use a reminder, here's a quick description of the Oxford comma debate, with a couple examples.
In a sentence with a list, you can use a comma before the last item or not:
The flag is red, white and blue.
The flag is red, white, and blue.
Some people say it reads better without the "extra" comma. They also point out that not having the comma can sometimes lead to ambiguity, because it looks like an appositive:
The highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector.
Nelson Mandela is a demigod and dildo collector?! Adding a comma clarifies that "dildo collector" is a separate item:
The highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod, and a dildo collector.
On the other hand, using the comma can create ambiguity:
To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God.
Your mother is Ayn Rand? Better without the comma:
To my mother, Ayn Rand and God.
Some sentences are indeed more clear without the comma, some are more clear with the comma. Should you use it? Not when it makes the sentence unclear, I say. When adding the comma makes it sound like your mom is Ayn Rand, don't add the comma. When leaving the comma out makes Mandela a dildo collector, don't leave it out. Write for clarity, using the comma where it's needed, I say.
The party included the strippers, Bill Clinton and Al Franken.
The party included the strippers, Bill Clinton, and Al Franken.
The first form sounds like Bill and Al are the strippers. The Oxford comma makes this sentence more clear. Use the second form to indicate they party with strippers in this case.
The party included the serial sexual harassers, Bill Clinton, and Al Franken.
Never an Oxford comma when it IS supposed to be an appositive.
Should there be a comma in picking cotton?
Not so much as there should be a a hyphen in cotton picking.
Punctuation and grammar are important for communication clarity. Know your shit, not, know you're shit.
You'd think /. of all places would recognise the importance of clarity in expression and communication. Isn't this computer science nerdom after all ?
This is as close you can get to the seriousness of "Nazi" in this expression.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Wait, so truckers that deliver cheese weren't supposed to get overtime? I hope the people who penned that law died of dysentery.
Whether someone is actually working overtime depends on the time period. Seasonal activities like fishing and agriculture are done for a short time period with long slack periods in between; basically they're looking at the hours worked per year rather than per week.
How much of that "complexity" is because people don't want to be bound by laws and try to weasel out by fighting over "Is"*?
*http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/1998/09/bill_clinton_and_the_meaning_of_is.html
You'd think /. of all places would recognise the importance of clarity in expression and communication. Isn't this computer science nerdom after all ?
Not really. There are a lot of programmers here.
Programmers are used to being able to parse very complex and unclear phrases but any minor syntactical error is seen as a major problem.
The Federal Fair Labor Standards Act has all kinds of holes in it. It's really a Swiss Cheese law. Truck drivers are considered exempt from FLSA if they do interstate commerce. It's well known that a lot of small, local companies get around this by making certain they have at least 1 delivery out of state per month. No more overtime after 40 hours.
If this, or entities same as, REFUSE to comply with overtime standards because of their greed, all drivers should REFUSE to transport any product from any such criminal orgonazation!!! LET THEIR PRODUCTS ROT ON SITE. Then vote the legislators that devised this illegal law out of office. AMERICANS FIRST
While I'm all for the drivers and don't think there should be any exemptions except maybe over a short time when the law was adopted.... But it's pretty clear to me what the intent was. They wouldn't have been mentioned if they weren't meant to be exempted.
In cases like this I think it would be reasonable for the court to send it back to the legislature for a vote of conferment as well as to clarify the wording. They wouldn't get their overtime but it might get the legislature to remove all those people as exemptions.
Honestly I think this ruling was based on feeling (what the law should be) rather than law.
Choose a style or set of rules. Deviate from it when that improves clarity.
More discussion on this is bullshit. No words for the lawsuit.
must be, pleased about, this, court's decision.
(oh... not ***THAT*** comma).
It took less than five minutes to type this.
Nine specific activities are exempted from mandatory overtime pay for each of the following three items:
1) meat
2) fish products
and
3) perishable foods
The nine (9) activities are:
1) canning
2) processing
3) preserving
4) freezing
5) drying
6) marketing
7) storing
8) packing for shipment
and
9) distribution
So, at my usual legal fee billing rate of $360.00 per hour, somebody owes me $30.00 (cash only: no checks, money orders, EFT drafts, or wire transfers)
(T)he (O)ld (M)an
...but any minor syntactical error is seen as a major problem.
Hence the importance of clarity in expression and communication.
You assume that clarity was desired. Laws are written mostly by lawyers, if they are easy to understand, who will need the lawyers?
The English language is much clearer in that respect. Long live the Oxford comma!
No it isn't. The Oxford comma adds just as much ambiguity as it removes so it is a stupid invention. For example:
I emailed the instructor, Fred, and the dean
If you use the Oxford comma then it is ambiguous whether Fred is the instructor and I emailed two people or whether Fred is not the instructor and I emailed three people. If you do not use the Oxford comma it is clear that Fred is the instructor and I emailed two people. Adding something which creates as much ambiguity as it solves is daft which is probably why as a schoolkid in the UK I was consistently taught that you do not use the Oxford comma.
What is that colon doing between "distribution of" and "agricultural produce"?
And why are there commas in the first list and semicolons in the second?
The best way to end the argument once and for all is to always use a bulleted list.
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
Profiting from silly mistakes, making sure the t's are crossed, the i's dotted, since the beginning of time.
He is from the shire--Oxfordshire.
If the contract is ambiguous, a court ruling will go to the party that did not draft it - as it did in this case. So your statement is actually false if you're the company and its lawyers who should have made it unambiguous and clear.
But I assume you really meant your comment as some kind of slam on the legal profession. Usually that happens when someone has never had the need for it. Hopefully someday when you do you'll amend your sour attitude.
An ambiguous (formal) grammar. We use commas to set off appositives and to separate items of a list; there's no context-free way in which you can determine which of those two functions is being performed, the only solution is to rewrite the sentence.
There is literally no solution that works in every case if you have only commas to work with. Eliminate ambiguity on one set of sentences and introduce it in another. However this problem could easily be solved if we had distinct tokens for setting off apositives (noun phrases that repeat or clarify a preceding noun, as in "George W. Bush, the 43rd President of the US") and delimiting list members.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
would allow many (most?) court cases to be settled by a compiler. But not to worry, lawyers would remain employed quibbling over word meanings nach Clinton's or Trump's definition of "Sex."
https://rlv.zcache.com/lets_ea...
#DeleteFacebook
There's nothing sinister about that. Driving truck is a completely different sort of employment situation from the standard hourly wage jobs FLSA is focused on. The reason for the interstate commerce requirement is because Congress then has jurisdiction and can pre-empt any wrong-headed state regulations on the subject.
If laws were clear, simple, and unambiguous, there wouldn't be much need for the legal profession.
And as neither the employer, nor the employees, drafted this law, "the party that did not draft it" is equally true of both parties, so your claim of siding with them is demonstrably false.
... is that the legal department of the dairy spent the time poring over the law looking for something/anything--Ah Ha! A grammatical error!--that allowed them to engage in the practice that resulted in the lawsuit. The company had to know they were violating the intent of the law but the missing comma somehow made it okay. It's funny how, when money is at stake, all sorts of tortured arguments justifying bad behavior (missing f*cking comma?) wind up being litigated in the court system.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
And, in fact, in modern regulations, this is exactly what's done. The bureaucrats who write these things actually DO know what they are doing, and craft them to be unambiguous, just like I wish software specifications would be. That said, legislators often do not have that experience and skill, nor does their staff, so we wind up with laws where "plain reading" is ambiguous.
It doesn't need vertical space. You can separate with commas or semicolons, as needed, but the use of the identifiers makes it clear whether it's
a) canning; b)drying; c)packing and distribution
or
a) canning; b)drying; c)packing; d)distribution
Should there be a comma in picking cotton?
Not so much as there should be a a hyphen in cotton picking.
Generally yes, cotton-picking should be hyphenated because it is a compound noun. It's especially important to hyphenate when it's used as an adjective. Otherwise what are we to make of a "cotton picking machine?" Is it a machine that picks cotton (a cotton-picking machine) or a machine that picks and is made out of cotton (a cotton picking-machine?)
Punctuation and grammar are important for communication clarity. Know your shit, not, know you're shit.
This.
Know the difference between a panda bear that "eats shoots and leaves" and a peckish hitman who "eats, shoots, and leaves."
"Let's eat, Grandma!" means that Grandma has come to dinner.
"Let's eat Grandma!" means that Grandma is dinner.
And so on.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Otherwise what are we to make of a "cotton picking machine?" Is it a machine that picks cotton (a cotton-picking machine) or a machine that picks and is made out of cotton (a cotton picking-machine?)
Neither. It is colloquial expression for a machine of little value, or located where it does not properly belong (although it should have a hyphen).
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
You can write English without ever using comma. You can write English without ever making a list. You can use a tedious style like this for all your legal documents. Eventually we will eliminate other core syntax from English in our legal documents. Maybe pronounces should be next?
(I am not a lawyer; I don't even play one on TV)
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
...is why there are a bunch of exceptions in the first place -- people doing similar labor in a different industry would get overtime regardless.
Bulleted Lists are a much better way to present a series of inclusive...
- items
- things
- people
- ideas
- and more
If...
- the spoken language can change
- the words of a language can change
- the inherent meaning of words can change
then why cant the written language change as well.
After all there has never before been a time when language, especially the English language, has changed as rapidly as it has in the last 15-20 years.
I mean just think about...
- Ebonics
- text messaging & shorthand
- emojis
It took less than five minutes to type this.
Nine specific activities are exempted from mandatory overtime pay for each of the following three items:
1) meat
2) fish products
and
3) perishable foods
The nine (9) activities are:
1) canning
2) processing
3) preserving
4) freezing
5) drying
6) marketing
7) storing
8) packing for shipment or distribution
Fixed it for you, as it is written in the law. Packing doesn't require it to be shipped. These items may be packed for distribution other than shipping.
English[edit] Noun[edit] cotton-picking (uncountable) The harvesting of cotton quotations Adjective[edit] cotton-picking (US, idiomatic, colloquial) An intensifier, like "darn", used for emphasis or to signify that something is of little value. quotations (US, idiomatic, pejorative, colloquial) Describes a person who tends to become involved in matters outside of his area of concern. quotations Usage notes[edit] Often used with hands, as in "keep your cotton-picking hands off" (something or someone).
"Now, wait just a cotton-picking minute." You kind of cherry-picked your cotton-picking definition.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
The first court ruled that the drivers were not entitled to the overtime.
The 3-judge appellate panel ruled that the lack of the comma made the law ambiguous, and that the ambiguity must be applied liberally.
The case was handed back to the lower court, resulting in a settlement that awarded the 5 drivers $50k.
Q: What did the Southern girl say when she lost the string to her tampon?
A: Wait a cotton-picking minute.
Call it a serial comma if you like. My Oxford qualified, English teacher pointed out that it is bad grammar to put a comma after the penultimate item in a list before the "and".
The English language may have changed since them so perhaps bad grammar is not what it was. I tend to see it as an error that has crept in that users have spent a lot of time trying to justify. Please justify it under another name. "Serial comma" might do but not one that pretends that it was invented on this side of the pond!
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
Let's move on to the semicolon.
They weren't able to (or didn't think to) look at discussion of the legislation by the legislators, to discover the intended meaning?
Or by those who provided the bill's language in the first place, if it was the relevant industry or union?
After all, sometimes legislators don't write legislation, they just introduce it. Which isn't necessarily bad.
Well-intended public-spirited people or organizations do supply legislators with model legislation that is intended to serve the public interest.
And some of it actually does, rather than boss or rob one group of people for the material or emotional benefit of another group of people.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
Yes, you can always rewrite a sentence to avoid ambiguity but that is just as valid an argument if you do not use the Oxford comma too. Hence my original point: the Oxford comma just shifts ambiguity around and has zero net value to the language.
Laws are written by politicians, and have to be approved by a majority of one or more groups. Sometimes putting a little ambiguity into the law makes it easier to find votes to pass it. Faction A might want a certain provision in, and faction B might oppose it, so actually saying one or another might be enough to sink the bill.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
They weren't able to (or didn't think to) look at discussion of the legislation by the legislators, to discover the intended meaning?
Or by those who provided the bill's language in the first place, if it was the relevant industry or union?
After all, sometimes legislators don't write legislation, they just introduce it.
Which isn't necessarily bad. Well-intended public-spirited people or organizations supply legislators with "model legislation" that is intended to serve the public interest. And some of it is good, rather than to boss or rob one group of people for the material or emotional benefit of another group of people.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.