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Facebook Confirms It's Working on a New Internet Satellite (wired.com)

A host of companies believe the better way to connect the estimated half of Earth's population that's still offline is to launch "constellations" of smaller satellites into low Earth orbit, around 100 to 1,250 miles above our planet. According to emails from the Federal Communications Commission, which Wired obtained by filing a Freedom of Information Act request, Facebook is officially one such company. From the report: The emails show that the social network wants to launch Athena, its very own internet satellite, in early 2019. The new device is designed to "efficiently provide broadband access to unserved and underserved areas throughout the world," according to an application the social network appears to have filed with the FCC under the name PointView Tech LLC. With the filing, Facebook joins Elon Musk's SpaceX and Softbank-backed OneWeb, two well-funded organizations working on similar projects. In fact, SpaceX launched the first two of what it hopes will be thousands of its Starlink satellites just this past February. The emails, which date back to July 2016, and subsequent confirmation from Facebook, confirm a story published in May by IEEE Spectrum, which used public records to speculate that Facebook had started a satellite internet project.

48 comments

  1. Re:Connect? by Desler · · Score: 1

    Yep, this is all about Facebool being able to track and data mine you without another ISP being in the middle. End-to-end tracking of all your activity is all these companies care about.

  2. Will launch from Russia by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    To make it easier to "share" information.

    1. Re:Will launch from Russia by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      To "improve" your "browsing experience"?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  3. Blanket coverage. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Might be easier than other LEO efforts because they're only covering "unserved and underserved areas throughout the world" which doesn't apply to places that are already well served. e.g. EU,USA,etc.

    1. Re:Blanket coverage. by jonbryce · · Score: 2

      Or even most African countries have pretty good cellphone coverage. Kenya for example is the world leader in mobile payments.

    2. Re:Blanket coverage. by rally2xs · · Score: 1

      The USA is not well-served. There's millions of people, I expect, not-in-cities and far off the cable routes that just don't have access other than the damned geosynchro satellites, which means they're useless for some specific applications like first person shooter games, anything else requiring quick response. There's plenty of people in my own county which don't have the cable access, and have to rely on lesser means. The county is even getting involved in providing service to everybody. I'm concerned because the cable I do have works great, and I don't want a gov't-run thing making my cable economically unviable. I could even lose cable TV, and don't want to, and cable phone. Don't want to lose that either.

      So... LEO satellites. Yeah, there's millions of Americans that could use that. Make it broadband enough, and cable TV, sat, and phone could all be nuked for wireless. Don't think that much bandwidth exists, tho.

    3. Re:Blanket coverage. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The county is even getting involved in providing service to everybody. I'm concerned because the cable I do have works great, and I don't want a gov't-run thing making my cable economically unviable. I could even lose cable TV, and don't want to, and cable phone.

      Can you say "zero-sum fallacy"?

  4. Instead of satellites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about investing in roads, fiber optics, plumbing, housing and health care to bring everyone up to first world standards? Is that too hard? You're worth $100 billion, that's more than enough money to do it.

    1. Re:Instead of satellites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you stupid or joking? $100 billion is a drop in the bucket if you want to bring the things you listed to billions of people. Let's say just 1 billion people: How much road, fiber optics, plumbing, housing and health care do you think you can get for $100 per person?

    2. Re: Instead of satellites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You fool. Those things do not generate ad dollars.

      We are talking about Facebook no-privacy dystopia, not your socialist dystopia.

  5. Re:Connect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well it does reduce the chances of your personal information from leaking out and/or being sold.

  6. Re:Connect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So they will be able to track you from space, whether you have a Facebook account or not.

  7. Re:Connect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, it raises the changes significantly, because it means Facebook collects more information and is able to connect much more of the information it has about you and others together.

    This is a terrible idea, and is another reason why Facebook needs to be shut down.

  8. Connect Google. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well that certainly explains both mobile ISPs, as well as Google fiber.

  9. What is this teh zuck's "internet"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this a more expensive version of "internet.org internet basics", IOW facebook+paying "friends"?

  10. 100 miles??? by ve3oat · · Score: 1

    At that height, no satellite will stay in "orbit" very long, due to atmospheric drag. I don't have the figures here but at 100 miles up, the daily loss of altitude will be easily noticed. And it is expensive to correct that loss. Mind you , it is much easier to launch to 100 miles than to a more stable altitude like 600 miles, provided you don't mind losing the satellite very soon.

    1. Re:100 miles??? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      For SpaceX’s strategy, mass-producing and launching a couple hundred satellites each year might not be that big of a deal. It gives a way to continuously upgrade the hardware.

    2. Re:100 miles??? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Keeps the round trip in ms down.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:100 miles??? by dj245 · · Score: 1

      At that height, no satellite will stay in "orbit" very long, due to atmospheric drag. I don't have the figures here but at 100 miles up, the daily loss of altitude will be easily noticed. And it is expensive to correct that loss. Mind you , it is much easier to launch to 100 miles than to a more stable altitude like 600 miles, provided you don't mind losing the satellite very soon.

      This is a very good thing. There is so much junk in space already, it is already making launch windows short due to avoiding all the other stuff possibly in the way. All sorts of companies are talking about constellations of "thousands" of small satellites. The last thing we need in orbit is thousands of satellites with decades-long orbital decay times. Even the idea of launching thousands of small satellites is not a good idea given the possibility of collisional cascading.

      It is my belief that we should be encouraging or incentivizing the consolidation of satellites into fewer, but larger and longer-lasting vehicles. A single company putting 1000s of satellites in orbit is unnecessary and basically a territory grab to the detriment of anyone else who wants a satellite in a particular orbit.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    4. Re: 100 miles??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much easier? The vast majority of the launch energy goes into the horizontal component of orbital speed which is even higher at 100 miles (the lower you are the faster you have to go). The energy difference between 100 and 600 miles is fairly small.

    5. Re: 100 miles??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to have a thousand satellites in order to have constant coverage everywhere in leo orbit. Using fewer satellites means putting them in geosync, which we already have and has proven to be fairly unusable due to high latency.

  11. Re: hooknoses, yids, jesus killers ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The greatest Christian ever was Jewish.

    Don't think too hard on it. Shouldn't you be on a boat somewhere getting drunk and about to say, "hold mah beer and watch this!"

  12. No thanks by DaMattster · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even if this ends up being free, I would rather pay an ISP and have it less likely that my data is being sold. I parted ways with Facebook 8 months ago and that parting was permanent.

    1. Re:No thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're going to pay ISP and then use it to connect to all those services that sell your data? Very clever!

    2. Re:No thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I pray to sweet Jesus that this new satellite blows up on our he launchpad as well.

    3. Re:No thanks by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      The ISP gets paid to connect the user and the suer can find another ISP.
      Once trapped on a social media network with its own connection the user has trust the provided encryption and the ads.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    4. Re:No thanks by ckatko · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that satellites, by design, have huge lag. So enjoy playing games at 650ms minimum latency.

      It's almost like you have to beam something to space and back, and convert the signal multiple times across multiple hops.

    5. Re:No thanks by JohnnyBGod · · Score: 1

      That applies to geosynchronous sattellites, which isn't what is being discussed.

    6. Re: No thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leo satellites at 200 miles would add about 1ms latency each way. Basic physics.

    7. Re:No thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's almost like you have to beam something to space and back, and convert the signal multiple times across multiple hops.

      There are lots more orbits than you realize.

    8. Re:No thanks by ckatko · · Score: 1

      I apologize for my misunderstanding. But we're still talking...satellites right?

      It's still got to go to "orbit" (even if orbit is "near earth") and pass a round trip (possibly through multiple satellites too). You can't go around physics. Even the speed of light has a latency.

      This article says, per the company itself, "could be" as low as 30 milliseconds. Which means it won't be anywhere near that--just like your internet speeds are nothing compared to what your ISP says it "could be".

      https://arstechnica.com/inform...

      And what kind of latency will we be hitting at peak hours? I don't know. My only point is that it's certainly an issue that should be investigated and discussed.

    9. Re:No thanks by hab136 · · Score: 1

      Geosynchronous orbit (where most existing internet sats are) is about 35,786 km (22,236 mi) above sea level, or 42,164 km from the center of the Earth. Since we're transmitting from sea level or above, we use that number.

      35,786 km / the speed of light = 0.119369247 seconds, or about .24 seconds round-trip. Most requests would go from you to sat, to ground station, to ISP, then back through ground station, sat, then you. That's two round trips to the sat, so 480 ms minimum; throw on 20 ms for the actual internet connection and you're up to 500 ms as a minimum.

      If you're only going 100 km up, then your delay is 100 km / the speed of light = 0.000333564095 seconds, or 1 ms for a round-trip. That's why they're estimating 30 ms: 2 ms for two round trips to the sat and 29 ms for the ground.

      30 ms is quite achievable. Profitable may be another story.

    10. Re:No thanks by Agripa · · Score: 1

      This article says, per the company itself, "could be" as low as 30 milliseconds. Which means it won't be anywhere near that--just like your internet speeds are nothing compared to what your ISP says it "could be".

      Speed of light delay is about 1 nanosecond per foot (1) so about 5.3 microseconds per mile and 0.53 milliseconds per 100 miles. Geosynchronous orbit at about 22.5 thousand miles contributes about 125 milliseconds. The interleaved error correction commonly used on high speed DSL and cable contributes 10s of milliseconds of latency. If you were using the old ISDN or SDSL standards, this is more like 1 millisecond.

      So the contribution in latency from a LEO satellite constellation is insignificant even under conditions of poor geometry. The 30 milliseconds they are referring to is due to factors other than the distance to the satellites.

      (1) It is actually easier for me to think of this using English units; 3.336 nanoseconds per meter is more inconvenient to start with.

  13. Be careful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    When your GPS devices (from your vehicle, cell phone) send data to the satellite, are the signals broadcast in a way that all satellites are capable of picking up, or is there some authentication involved?

    The question is - Is there a way to prevent Facebook from intercepting GPS data connections, because this is clear that this will be a natural progression for them, whether we'd like it or not.

    With more self-driving cars on the road, which are always-connected (and no way of opting out), this makes things even more troublesome if there's not further way of opting out this kind of location to Facebook.

    This is seriously fucked.

    1. Re:Be careful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GPS is a downstream-only system, you nut.

    2. Re:Be careful by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Well, that's what they sa..,.,_
      \/kj ./.';
      no carrier

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Be careful by arth1 · · Score: 1

      When your GPS devices (from your vehicle, cell phone) send data to the satellite

      That's not how GPS works.
      Basically, all the GPS satellites do is broadcast a time signal and a code telling which satellite it is. Based on the signal delay, you can calculate how far away it must be. Knowing the orbits of the satellites, you then triangulate your position without sending anything to the GPS satellites.

      The question is - Is there a way to prevent Facebook from intercepting GPS data connections

      The question is very stupid.

      This Facebook Internet satellite has nothing to do with GPS. Its orbit is vastly different. As is its methods of communication.

  14. Re:Connect? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    It guarantees your personal data will be sold.
    It should provide better chances of it not being leaked though, as it has commercial value.

  15. So basically a SpaceX Starlink ripoff by Sethra · · Score: 1

    SpaceX has been working on this since 2015 and already launched two successful prototype satellites. It's called "Starlink" and production is already underway. Good luck competing with a company that builds their own satellites and has their own low cost launch platform.

    https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-internet-satellite-starlink-production-in-house/

  16. Should I sell my company stock? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My company delivers internet through geostationary satellites. Not sure we can compete with Facebook and SpaceX. Time to dump all my stock?

    1. Re:Should I sell my company stock? by Tyger-ZA · · Score: 1

      My company delivers internet through geostationary satellites. Not sure we can compete with Facebook and SpaceX. Time to dump all my stock?

      Facebook already had a satellite destroyed by SpaceX before it even launched.

      Next time, it will reach orbit only to collide with a SpaceX satellite that is aiming to serve the same people as the Facebook satellite

  17. Our solution, your problem. by Synonymous+Homonym · · Score: 1

    A host of companies believe the better way to connect the estimated half of Earth's population that's still offline is to launch "constellations" of smaller satellites into low Earth orbit

    A host of companies is wrong.

    Satellite is the best way to provide coverage on the high seas, where there is a dearth of cell phone coverage.

    On land, glass fiber is always best. With the amount of it that has been dumped into the sea for intercontinental links, covering the quarter of the surface that isn't ocean should be no problem. Even if in practice the last mile tends to be radio.

    And the population that doesn't exist on-line yet is not half, but between two thirds and three quarters. Availability of carriers is not the big problem though. Availability of electricity is.

  18. Re: Connect? by sound+vision · · Score: 1

    Also. The developed world had reached Peak Facebook, this is a way they can directly expand their influence into new territories.

  19. Ka-Boom! by Whatchamacallit · · Score: 1

    Didn't their last satellite go kablooey? SpaceX Falcon 9 explosion on the launch pad during fueling destroyed Facebook's co-leased AMOS-6 Satellite Sept 1st 2016. The satellite was to provide Internet service to large parts of West, East and Southern Africa. The satellite cost approximately $200 million. Sounds like the new plan is smaller, simpler and cheaper lower orbit satellites.

    1. Re:Ka-Boom! by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Didn't their last satellite go kablooey? SpaceX Falcon 9 explosion on the launch pad during fueling destroyed Facebook's co-leased AMOS-6 Satellite Sept 1st 2016. The satellite was to provide Internet service to large parts of West, East and Southern Africa. The satellite cost approximately $200 million. Sounds like the new plan is smaller, simpler and cheaper lower orbit satellites.

      Do you remember that PoIP (punch over IP) protocol? We are way beyond that now.