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Virginia To Produce 25K-35K Additional CS Grads As Part of Amazon HQ2 Deal (loudounnow.com)

Posted by BeauHD on from the more-the-merrier dept.

theodp writes: Developers! Developers! Developers! To make good on the proposal that snagged it a share of the Amazon HQ2 prize, the State of Virginia is also apparently on the hook for doubling the annual number of graduates with computer science or closely related degrees, with a goal to add 25,000 to 35,000 graduates (Amazon's HQ2 RFP demanded info on "education programs related to computer science"). To do that, the state will establish a performance-based investment fund for higher education institutions to expand their bachelor's degree programs, and spend up to $375 million on George Mason University's Arlington campus and a new Virginia Tech campus in Alexandria. The state will also spend $50 million on STEM + CS education in public schools and expanding internships for higher education students.

Amazon is certainly focused on boosting the ranks of software engineer types. Earlier this month, Amazon launched Amazon Future Engineer, a program that aims to teach more than 10 million students a year how to code, part of a $50 million Amazon commitment to computer science education that was announced last year at a kickoff event for the Ivanka Trump-led White House K-12 CS Initiative. And on Wednesday, Amazon-bankrolled Code.org -- Amazon is a $10+ million Diamond Supporter of the nonprofit; CS/EE grad Jeff Bezos is a $1+ million Gold Supporter -- announced it has teamed with Amazon Future Engineer to build and launchHour of Code: Dance Party, a signature tutorial for this December's big Hour of Code (powered by AWS in 2017), which has become something of a corporate infomercial (Microsoft recently boasted "learners around the world have completed nearly 100 million Minecraft Hour of Code sessions"). Students participating in the Dance Party tutorial, Code.org explained, can choose from 30 hits like Katy Perry's "Firework" and code interactive dance moves and special effects as they learn basic CS concepts. "The artists whose music is used in this tutorial are not sponsoring or endorsing Amazon as part of licensing use of their music to Code.org," stresses a footnote in Code.org's post. So, don't try to make any connections between Katy Perry's Twitter endorsement of the Code.org/Amazon tutorial later that day and those same-day follow-up Amazon and Katy Perry tweets touting their new exclusive Amazon Music streaming deal, kids!

165 comments

  1. So like the Foxconn deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Pretend you'll add jobs, but really you want to import workers from Asia while reaping corporate welfare?

    The placement of HQ deux and trois near Wall Street and Pennsylvania Ave is no coincidence.

    1. Re: So like the Foxconn deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are so many things wrong with this deal /. doesn't even have anough disk space to hold them all

    2. Re: So like the Foxconn deal? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      We could erase your comment and mine.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    3. Re: So like the Foxconn deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is nothing more than self promotion for Amazon. The State of Virginia doesn't have 25 to 35 thousand extra seats in a limited number of universities, much less to say in a single family of subjects, all related to computer science. The only way the State of Virginia could possibly fill those seats, is by importing the bulk of those students, which means, by importing them from overseas. Foreign students bring more revenue than American students. That is why you see so many foreign students studying at American universities. For those foreign students, their stay in the USA is a vacation to become fluent the English language, because they have already had those subjects in their own countries, as already pointed out.

      The other 49 states should file a class action lawsuit against Amazon for singling out and favoring a single state, Virginia, to benefit from their programs.

      If Amazon really wanted to benefit American students as a whole, they would place those CS related courses online, and ensure that the students taking those courses were raised and educated in the United States.

  2. In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well, technically it's a different program, but here's how it works:

    Already trained programmer comes over from India, goes to "school" and at the same time works for a company who's sponsoring them. Ordinarily the programmer couldn't keep up with a full time school and work load, but they've already been trained in their country. Meanwhile the programs are closed to Americans, and even if they weren't again, nobody can keep up with 40+/week at a job + 300/400 level class workloads unless they already know the material.

    The company gets cheap labor, the school gets a quick influx of cash from a student who doesn't need any time from his professors. Everybody wins except the American worker who's out a job (or at least has lost 30% of his/her wages due to reduced demand, yep, supply & demand works both ways folks) and the American student who is competing for a limited spot in 300+ level courses with somebody who already took the course.

    --
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    1. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In other words: "Please pay to train our workforce. And please make sure you train enough of them to drive the hourly wage down a bit, we're not running a damn charity here"

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    2. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by david.emery · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What we'll get from programs like this are "coders who know the latest buzz-technology", but not "designers who know how to think and learn." But that's exactly what Industry wants. They don't -invest in human capital-, they just look for disposable staff who happen to know this year's fad.

    3. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      >But that's exactly what Industry wants.

      Nope. When we hire, we are looking for people who can think and do.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    4. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a myth - Indians never take jobs from Americans. They are used to having to rely only on themselves. Obviously people want to believe this because itâ(TM)s easier to complain

    5. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2

      >But that's exactly what Industry wants.

      Nope. When we hire, we are looking for people who can think and do.

      Unfortunately, a lot of companies want that but at cut rate prices. As the labor market tightens the cheapskates will lose talent; and whine thay can't get any or people don't turn up for interviews. If you hadn't treated them like crap when you had the upperhand they wouldn't turn around and do the same to you.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    6. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      ..but not "designers who know how to think and learn." ...

      You mean like 99% of the existing fauxgrammers who know a little Python and think that makes them Mr Robot?

      You have an unrealistically high expectation of 'Murican programmers.

    7. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ..but not "designers who know how to think and learn." ...

      You mean like 99% of the existing fauxgrammers who know a little Python and think that makes them Mr Robot?

      You have an unrealistically high expectation of 'Murican programmers.

      I, for one, hate this kind of gathering. I loath all this collective non-sense. Games? Mine Craft? really? When I was learning to code it used to be a lonely endeavor, with important things in my head, in a sacrosanct data center. Not this millennial bullshit. They don't impress me at all.

    8. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what mythical program that actively blocks US Citizens are you talking about here that's not an H1-B?

      You're full of bullshit.

    9. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree. Unless the students are 3rd generation U.S. citizens, (this is, their grandparents
      were born on U.S. soil) this is just going to be abused exactly the way you've stated. And
      no, I'm not racist. It takes 3 generations to fully embrace American culture, values, and ideals.
      I'm also applying what is applied in other countries - just try to go to India and you'll see the
      same 3-generation rule there are well.

      CAP === 'conjunct'

    10. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meanwhile the programs are closed to Americans,

      By what mechanism are they closed to Americans?

      Ordinarily the programmer couldn't keep up with a full time school and work load

      There are strict limits on paid work that can be done by foreign students - generally pretty much none, so how can this work?

    11. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This.
      I can code circles around most of the "developers" I work with. On my resume I state that I am familiar with Python... I don't claim to be a Professional level Coder. Because I'm not.

    12. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      Of course, Bezos coming out to start the Ratner Effect and declaring that Amazon will eventually fail could be an indicator that you may not expect job security, and you might want to work with someone who at least has more confidence in his company.

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      This space unintentionally left blank.
    13. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      My great grandparents came over legally from Ireland and Scotland in the 1890s. They had fully embraced American Culture not too long after, and well before they even earned their citizenship.

      And after their arrival, they simply referred to themselves as Americans without the from elsewhere prefix.

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
    14. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatâ(TM)s the problem in this scenarioâ" The most qualified worker got the job.

      Why does it matter what country the person is from? Itâ(TM)s 2018â" you have to be globally competitive

    15. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Nope.

      One point of data says what? (That's figurative, by the way.)

    16. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Unless the students are 3rd generation U.S. citizens...

      Depends entirely on their culture and their reasons for immigrating here.

    17. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      >But that's exactly what Industry wants.

      Nope. When we hire, we are looking for people who can think and do.

      Unfortunately, a lot of companies want that but at cut rate prices. As the labor market tightens the cheapskates will lose talent; and whine thay can't get any or people don't turn up for interviews. If you hadn't treated them like crap when you had the upperhand they wouldn't turn around and do the same to you.

      Fear not, after a year or so, most of these graduates will find out what its like to work in the field, and most will decide that they don't like it.

      Trying to imagine these kids working in an industry where you don't get to take the day off when the Weather Channel forcasts snow, or when your employer thinks that a 40 hour week is only for department supervisor and above. We had trouble getting the kids to work even 40 hours. Gotta have those mental health days off, yaknow.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    18. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by gmack · · Score: 1

      Or they quiet and go work for a less trendy company who doesn't make such insane demands on their time. Working long hours has an adverse affect on code quality. If employees are regularly working more than 40 hour weeks, something is seriously wrong with the management.

      Up here, employers are now competing on quality of life rather than just higher paychecks.

    19. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by plopez · · Score: 1

      I've heard that many times. But once out working for the company all is drones doing things that are basically COBOL in drag.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    20. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      In other words: "Please pay to train our workforce. And please make sure you train enough of them to drive the hourly wage down a bit, we're not running a damn charity here"

      lol, you think they said please.

    21. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Nope.

      One point of data says what? (That's figurative, by the way.)

      More than generalizing the whole industry as behaving the same.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    22. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      You should find a different company then.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    23. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Amazon committed fifty MILLION to get TEN MILLION kids into computer classes. That is about FIVE MILLION microcents per kid!

    24. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have misunderstood Bezos statement about the future of Amazon. Paraphrasing, he said Amazon would fail like many giants before it if Amazon employees focus on internal matters rather than making customers everything.

    25. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Interesting thing about the low end of the market and lots of skilled labour, like piranha they go after the sharks by becoming franchise associations. Creating a school of suppliers to tackle the major suppliers ie employee owned companies tackling the share holding slow flat greedy whale sharks. The core of providing computer support services, on both large and small scale, defined around the nature of particular tech support franchisers, that combination of providing all digital services, in all market areas, as a distributed ownership professional organisation. The most skilled rather being forced on shit wages, will come together intelligently to create worker owned organisations, similar to doctors practices but on a much larger scale, everything changes and yet remains the same, guilds always form amongst the professional class.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    26. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody is willing to sacrifice themselves for some cheapskate company, you get what you pay for.

    27. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      "guilds always form amongst the professional class."

      That's why the money men have been trying so hard to proletarianize software development.

    28. Re:In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The company gets cheap labor, the school gets a quick influx of cash from a student who doesn't need any time from his professors. Everybody wins except the American worker who's out a job (or at least has lost 30% of his/her wages due to reduced demand, yep, supply & demand works both ways folks) and the American student who is competing for a limited spot in 300+ level courses with somebody who already took the course.

      If I had one piece of advice for every American CS skilled worker living anywhere near this clusterfuck, it's don't even think about applying.

      Unemployment is thankfully very low right now, so hopefully a good CS worker can find employment elsewhere, and let these fuckers swing in the wind. I hope they struggle like hell to find good talent when this is the end result for the American worker.

      Fuck Amazon.

    29. Re: In my neck of the woods these are mostly H1-Bs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stupid n1gger lies. America needs to segregate people from shitty indian import.

  3. Salaries! Salaries! Salaries! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because $4billion+ in tax breaks wasn't enough, let's make sure there's excess developers to keep salaries nice and low! Because at Amazon, it's all about the lowest prices... for everything but executives!

    1. Re:Salaries! Salaries! Salaries! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...it's all about the lowest prices... for everything but executives!

      Not to put a damper on the well-deserved Amazon bashing, but sadly this is the reality that's happening in a lot of companies.

      As in damn near all of them.

  4. 25K-35K Additional CS Grads still with loans easy by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    25K-35K Additional CS Grads still with loans easy to hit and NO RISK to the state.

  5. To do what exactly ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What at Amazon are 25.000 programmers gonna do ? the website is more or less finished, the cloud business is ticking along.

    Of course what if none of these 25K grads want to work for Amazon ? i doubt many aspire to work in the high-tech equivalent of a factory, is that what Americans learn computer science for ? create platforms to sell Chinese trinkets or design programs to sell adverts ?
    thrilling

    1. Re:To do what exactly ? by Fly+Swatter · · Score: 2

      Flood the market with excess labor so that wages drop. Saves amazon money.

  6. once burgeoning populations on shaky ground? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    blame it on the 'weather' begins to sound lame as throughout history, unimpeded, mother nature has been/is far more constructive, than destructive (invoke own worst enemy clause here), or that we could even imagine, since we appeared here,, bringing us back to the so-called whore of babylon, the papers of challenge & the missing monkey hymen glossage..

  7. How many new grad will Amazon hire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless there's an agreement that Amazon will hire some percentage of new CS grads, this won't work out well for the state. It could be the way Amazon to flood the market with potential employees to keep the labor costs low.

    1. Re:How many new grad will Amazon hire? by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because no one else hires CS graduates. Only Amazon. Sometimes I wonder if I live on another planet than the typical Slashdotter.

    2. Re:How many new grad will Amazon hire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. Bunch of entitled losers whining because their life sucks. They need to read some books instead of trolling online.

    3. Re: How many new grad will Amazon hire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the job market looking like in Tulsa?

    4. Re:How many new grad will Amazon hire? by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      If Amazon isn't planning on hiring at least some of these new CS grads, why did they make it part of the deal in the first place? The only reason I can think of is getting access to a large pool of unskilled labor in the form of college students looking for part time jobs to supplement their income while they're in school and I don't find that idea particularly plausible.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
  8. Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    all that rigamarole it's because they've already hit the cap on every other visa program they can get workers from. It's an end run around the normal limits.

    What I wish was folks would elect politicians who would do something about it. Trump promised, but he still hasn't even reverse Obama's executive order letting H1-B spouses work. He could do that with a stroke of a pen, and it's not like he's unaware, he talked about it during the campaign. Here we are 2 years in and not a damn thing's changed. He said some mean things and there was talk of less immigrants coming, but that didn't show up in the numbers or my wages.

    --
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    1. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 0

      What have you got against other people's spouses?

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    2. Re: Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His executive orders tend to be reversed by the courts in SF or Seattle right away.

    3. Re: Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by mangastudent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      His executive orders tend to be reversed by the courts in SF or Seattle right away.

      Exactly. Even if he's undoing a pure (and illegal) Obama executive order like DACA, it gets put on hold until it makes it to the Supreme court, should they deign to hear the case.

      But quoting the author:

      Trump promised, but he still hasn't even reverse Obama's executive order letting H1-B spouses work. He could do that with a stroke of a pen

      As we're noted, he cannot in practice end it with "a stroke of a pen", so his administration is doing it through the normal rules making process. It should come into effect in 1-2 months based on my searching just now and memory.

      Of course, the 9th Circuit might nullify it anyway, but it'll be in theory harder to sustain.

    4. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once again you vote for and support politicians that oppose your interests and attack ones that are attempting to help you.

      Stop voting and things will get better for you. I'm not sure how many times I can explain how much of an idiot you are to you.

    5. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but he still hasn't even reverse [sic] Obama's executive order letting H1-B spouses work

      There's a disconnect somewhere. One of my colleagues, who works here on an L-2 visa (his wife has the L-1 visa) has told me that spouses of H1-B holders can't work here.

      Apparently they can't even work remote, although I'm not sure how our gobmint could tell if the spouse was collecting wages (in India) from an employer in India. I'm told most Indian employers aren't big on remote work, so it's probably not a likely scenario anyway.

      But it's a problem because the spouse that's not allowed to work is idle, with nothing to do. After a few years their skills get rusty and they become unemployable when they eventually go home. (And here too, on the off chance they somehow get a visa.)

    6. Re: Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pitty, I figured congress was supposed to make laws. Not the courts or the President. Maybe I missed something during my civics classes.

    7. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by mikael · · Score: 4, Funny

      If they come from a country that permits polygamy, you end up with a whole developer team coming across and living in the same house.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    8. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      If spouses can't work then you won't get the skilled labour you need. This fantasy that good people will come to work for a few years by themselves and then go home is unrealistic. You want good people, you have to offer them a good deal.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    9. Re: Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      The "the 'penumbras' and 'emanations' cast by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights", for one thing. Except for the 2nd Amendment, it's a black hole.

    10. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      What I wish was folks would elect politicians who would do something about it. Trump promised, but he still hasn't even reverse Obama's executive order letting H1-B spouses work. He could do that with a stroke of a pen, and it's not like he's unaware, he talked about it during the campaign. Here we are 2 years in and not a damn thing's changed. He said some mean things and there was talk of less immigrants coming, but that didn't show up in the numbers or my wages.

      You didn't think that Trump and the Republicans work for you did you?

      Dood! There's money to be made, and baksheesh to be reeled in. As long as the party of the Moral High Ground can tell you what you want to hear, and then do as they dam well please, and still get your vote, this is what you'll get. Trump 2020 - do not disappoint them!

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    11. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by gmack · · Score: 1

      Cutting back on H1-Bs and their spouses only moves more jobs offshore.

      It was clear to anyone who had half a brain that Trump could never deliver on most of his promises and that many of his promises would have counterproductive results if implemented.

      Meanwhile, I live in a country that allows more immigrants than the US, I often find myself in offices full of recent immigrants from India, China and eastern Europe and I still have employers trying to out bid each other to get me on board.

    12. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by gtall · · Score: 1

      "it's not like he's unaware, he talked about it during the campaign" Oh what faith you have in Trump's intellectual abilities. He doesn't recall ever saying that during the campaign. Stop attributing powers and abilities to him he has not.

    13. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want good people, you have to offer them a good deal.

      We want good Americans to be offered good deals. This is our country and we have every right to reserve it's benefits first and foremost for ourselves.

    14. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want good people, you have to offer them a good deal.

      We want good Americans to be offered good deals. This is our country and we have every right to reserve it's benefits first and foremost for ourselves.

      Wages in the USA for IT work are much higher than in Western Europe or elsewhere, even outside Silicon Valley or New York, and even taking into account differences in paid time off, so I fail to see how your request isn't already the case.

    15. Re:Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Why are you so eager to put other people out of work?

    16. Re: Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shitty smelly parasites hindu-chimps are as attractive as a piece of dog shit.

    17. Re: Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Baksheesh? In the USA that's called tipping; remember to tip your congresscritter well if you want laws that favor your industry.

    18. Re: Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if he's undoing a pure (and illegal) Obama executive order like DACA

      Obama didn't do it.

    19. Re: Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3/4 of tech workers in Silicon Valley are immigrants. The bulk are here on unwelcome-guest worker programs like H1-B. Wages are stagnant for more than a decade. Companies actively discriminate against American citizens when hiring.

      We have nothing against your wife. Can we move to your home country, work, buy land, own a company, participate in local government? I didn't think so.

    20. Re: Oh, if anyone's wondering why they go through by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      >Can we move to your home country, work, buy land, own a company, participate in local government? I didn't think so.

      Yes, if you meet the criteria, which are somewhat less stringent than for someone to come from my country to the US.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  9. theodp by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    Oh, no. They are going to take theodp's jerb. This guy is so fixated on CS education.. Ridiculous.

  10. How will they do that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do they tweak the character generator algorithm? Do they import a bunch? Do they just relabel some generic grads?

    1. Re:How will they do that? by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      "To do that, the state will establish a performance-based investment fund for higher education institutions to expand their bachelor's degree programs, and spend up to $375 million on George Mason University's Arlington campus and a new Virginia Tech campus in Alexandria. The state will also spend $50 million on STEM + CS education in public schools and expanding internships for higher education students. "

      But maybe they should teach reading first.

    2. Re:How will they do that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, the good old "throw money at the problem" option. At least that is money spent. The question remains.

    3. Re:How will they do that? by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      That is the American way.

    4. Re:How will they do that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is about not wasting educational resources. Think of all the waste when curriculum changes or teachers leave or a department didn't have the right software. These are students who already want to major in CS as well as students who might not otherwise major in CS entering the workforce with an education that really prepared them to make a difference for their employers and in the communities they reside in. Amazon knows engineering and I welcome them in engineering problems out of our schools and anywhere else they want to meddle

    5. Re:How will they do that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Found the politician.

    6. Re:How will they do that? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Ah, so they will reward those that lower their standards. Because smart people is not something you can "produce". There is a very limited supply of them.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:How will they do that? by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      My thought exactly. There are only so many college students with the right mind set to become a good programmer, developer or system administrator in any area, and I doubt that there are that many in and around Virginia who aren't already studying CS. Unless they can start pulling good candidates in from farther away, the only way they crank out that many CS degrees without lowering their standards and giving themselves a bad reputation as a diploma mill.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
  11. Just what we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More competition, as if there isn't a glut of CS people in the US already. Oh, wait. All those are all older, experienced people who demand a good salary.

    1. Re:Just what we need by guruevi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've found it hard to hire high quality CS people. Even at premium rates I only got a handful of applicants and most of them didn't have any experience (some had a degree but then went on and did basically data entry).

      The problem the US has is that anyone can pass an engineering education, the standards have been lowered due to all sorts of social improvement/engineering and equality of outcome programs. If you HAVE to graduate x% across all sorts of arbitrary dimensions, the standards are lower for everyone.

      I have people graduating with a CS/EE degree that know a little C don't know Python, can't even program an Arduino.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    2. Re: Just what we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bottom line is that relatively few people have right combination of aptitude, temperament and specific ambitions to excel in these fields (ambitions like sitting on you ass all day staring at a computer).

      CS has exploded since the first dot-com boom, with the majority of people chasing a âoegood careerâ, not the logical conclusion of their own abilities.

      Efforts to increase diversity in the field have been a good thing, because talent is too scarce to let illogical, arbitrary factors like race, gender and nationality distort the market.

    3. Re: Just what we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus Hawthorne Flipping Christmas.. I swear we need to take away the internet and let the under 30's learn how to reverse engineer by trial-and-error so they learn some persistence, fundamentals and creativity.

    4. Re: Just what we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're just not trying. Hiring practices in the industry screen out alot of good people in favor of some real dunces. When you scream "team player! collaboration! group think!" you're asking for people that can't do anything on their own. Incompetent management builds incompetent teams out of incompetent individuals and then wonders why they can't produce anything.

    5. Re: Just what we need by sfcat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The bottom line is that relatively few people have right combination of aptitude, temperament and specific ambitions to excel in these fields (ambitions like sitting on you ass all day staring at a computer).

      CS has exploded since the first dot-com boom, with the majority of people chasing a âoegood careerâ, not the logical conclusion of their own abilities.

      Efforts to increase diversity in the field have been a good thing, because talent is too scarce to let illogical, arbitrary factors like race, gender and nationality distort the market.

      But has it? I've seen over the last 20 years loads of money and diversity efforts applied to CS. To an industry that already was way ahead of the game when it came to utilizing folks who weren't from the mainstream US (either folks who were from other places, other demographic groups, etc). The result I've seen is more poorly trained programmers who cause more harm than good but are cheap which the companies love.

      We've forgotten every single lesson of Fred Brooks in favor of factory style methods of programming that often cause more harm than good. The shitty engineering at the last company for which I worked was costing them around $1b a year of lost revenue due to the poor latency of their site (which was the only way they made revenue). They did employee 400 engineers but for a task that should have taken at most 50 and since they paid poorly they only got mediocre engineers who didn't understand what they were doing.

      If they had instead paid 2x the industry average they could have easily hired those 50 skilled engineers they needed, saved money, and increased revenue. And this is the current mode of operations in SV.

      What happens when someone in a suit figures out how flawed all this is and these company get rid of all these cut rate engineers (or a competitor figures it out and they go out of biz)? What are we going to do with several million poorly trained CS grads who can't program well and we no longer need (or they are turfed out at 40 per corporate policy)? They've all been told as long as they learn programming they will be fine and feel like their (probably liberal) teachers lied to them and swing to the right much like blue collar workers have been doing for decades. Its like we are trying to breed political instability.

      --
      "Those that start by burning books, will end by burning men."
    6. Re: Just what we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've found it hard to hire high quality CS people. Even at premium rates I only got a handful of applicants and most of them didn't have any experience (some had a degree but then went on and did basically data entry).

      Ah, the constant drumbeat of people who "can't find good workers", always paired with a lack of actual job description, working conditions, pay rate and locality.

      Never gets old. Reminds me of the terrible auto shortage the US is experiencing now. Hadn't you heard? There are not enough cars being made (to get me a 2018 Ferrari, for $5/month, with Snow tires, delivered to Juneau)! We need tax incentives to make it happen.

    7. Re:Just what we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a mistake to believe that the purpose of a computer science education is to teach people to write computer programs. I don't expect anybody to have practical computer programming skills with their CS degree. I do expect them to logically (mathematically) reason out any particular computation. I expect them to understand the mathematical properties of any particular computation such as their big O value for runtime and memory usage. If they have these skills, then computer programming ought to be a matter of training of how to enter programs into a computer using a particular language's syntax and then how to execute the program on the computer.

    8. Re:Just what we need by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      don't know Python

      College and University CS courses focus on teaching programming fundamentals and theory, not teaching students random languages.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    9. Re:Just what we need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've found it hard to hire high quality CS people. Even at premium rates I only got a handful of applicants and most of them didn't have any experience (some had a degree but then went on and did basically data entry).

      The problem the US has is that anyone can pass an engineering education, the standards have been lowered due to all sorts of social improvement/engineering and equality of outcome programs. If you HAVE to graduate x% across all sorts of arbitrary dimensions, the standards are lower for everyone.

      I have people graduating with a CS/EE degree that know a little C don't know Python, can't even program an Arduino.

      Even though I agreed with you about lower quality of grads, they way you hire people will limit yourself with false negative. A person who has authority to hire someone should NOT limit candidates at their experience but rather their capability. It is not easy for new grads to get a job directly in their field nowadays. However, a good hiring person would be able to see through a candidate capability. If the candidate has capability to learn, regardless the person's experience, the candidate should be able to work and become an asset to the company. Experience in a resume can be written in a way to match a job offer, but it isn't necessary to be true or even a good experience.

      I hope you at least see what I mean, and give those inexperience candidates a chance; however, you yourself will need to learn how to read people as well.

    10. Re:Just what we need by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I have no problem finding the right skill sets in people to be able to do learning on the job. I'm also looking for people with at least some experience, I've found that hiring directly out of school comes with its own problems, most often that kids get a degree for the money until reality sets in, I've seen many people drop out of the field entirely 1-2 years into a real job, schools do a poor job preparing kids for jobs, I'd rather get a high school dropout with a few failed startups. I've also interviewed people that were expecting their CS degree would get them a managerial job (preferably at Google or a Unicorn startup) right out the gate.

      I rather find people that like doing their job, if you joined a robotics club or a hackers group, those kids generally have the right aptitude but across hundreds of students in a University providing EE and CS, that club is maybe 50 members large.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  12. Or a crazier idea... by Pollux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about Amazon just pay their employees more?

    This is just another brazen example of a company who is privatizing profit and socializing risk. In a normal free economy (low supply + high demand = higher cost), if there's a scarcity of qualified employers, then the employee either needs to raise salaries, or train under-qualified employees. But Amazon prefers to put that cost on the state of Virginia. Virginia will artificially inflate their CS grads, with the cost of both modifying their educational resources and reducing labor pools that may be better suited or in greater demand elsewhere. All the while, Amazon saves on the cost of training, keeping more profit, rather than invest in their company and their employees.

    And the moment Virginia reneges on their agreement, or fails to deliver on continued demands that will undoubtedly continue to flow from Amazon corporate in the subsequent years, becomes the moment where Amazon closes up shop and moves elsewhere. There is no loyalty or community to this agreement, only corporate demand and political capitulation.

    1. Re:Or a crazier idea... by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Might even need a fewer developers if they didn't hire a bunch of new kids right out of college who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag. I can't even really see how a company like Amazon would even use 25,000 programmers. They can't possibly have that much code, and the code they do have is probably rather complicated and probably can't even be understood by new CS grads.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re: Or a crazier idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean, Amazon pays developers pretty well. Out of college above six figures, within four years above $200K but possibly above $300K. Uh... Is that considered bad or something?

    3. Re: Or a crazier idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As for college hires, it's how Amazon is built. For some reason they care more about having 2-4 college hires than one senior person. Amazon is the industry training grounds for Google, Apple, Facebook, etc. After 4-5 years, you move on to one of these companies. It's bizzare, but how they operate.

    4. Re:Or a crazier idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about Amazon just pay their employees more?

      In general US workers, for a given IT profession, are paid much more per hour than workers with equivalent positions in places like North West Europe, and Amazon often pays more than the typical rate in the USA.

    5. Re:Or a crazier idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about Amazon just pay their employees more?

      On one hand, Crazy Uncle Bernie whining about Walmart's CEO is retarded. Take the dude's salary, and you'd get $14 per employee. Not $14/hr, $14. That's it.

      On the other hand, Walmart isn't Amazon, and fuck Bozos.

    6. Re:Or a crazier idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Idiots conflate computer science with information technology. Amazon needs a huge amount of the latter, and fresh grads are fine for most maintenance purposes.

      The rate at which things change in modern corporate structures means nobody has more than 2-5 years of relevant experience anyway.

      Coming from a network veteran with three degrees and decades of experience.

    7. Re: Or a crazier idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It specifically said computer science degrees. Not information tech degrees.

      You aren't a veteran. You're an idiot, with 3 paper mill diplomas.

    8. Re: Or a crazier idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Citation needed.

    9. Re:Or a crazier idea... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's not even that complicated. Amazon could pay to train people, but why bother when cities are falling over themselves to offer billions of dollars in bribes?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    10. Re:Or a crazier idea... by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      Based on what I heard from people who had worked at Amazon, it's not even pay that's the problem, it's the work life balance.

      With this plan they'll have a huge pool of new graduates who's willing to put in however many hours their manager asks of them.

      the moment Virginia reneges on their agreement, or fails to deliver on continued demands that will undoubtedly continue to flow from Amazon corporate in the subsequent years, becomes the moment where Amazon closes up shop and moves elsewhere.

      I've not heard of any major tech company close a dev office completely (besides mergers and bankruptcies). They expand to new areas while keeping their old offices.

  13. in-sourced outsourcing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I currently work (quitting soon) for a Koch owned company which is starting up their own shop in India

    I guess Virginia is thinking that they can flood the market with CS grads, allowing wages to fall instead of remain flat so that they can eventually compete with India

  14. short sighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    actual computer science isn't on its own necessarily the best education for someone that wants to become a business developer, software engineering would be a better overall program

    1. Re: short sighted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's actually horrible (said as a CS major). Only 2-3 classes were relevant for my programming job. All the discrete math and logic can be dumped if you don't want a PhD.

  15. FREE LUNCH IN TULSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Tulsa Remote will offer a $10,000 grant, free working space, discounted rent and more to talented people who will move to and work remotely from Tulsa for a year.

    https://www.kansas.com/news/business/article221592120.html

    Tulsa World. Nov. 13, 2018.
    free
    — What?! That's right, the Kaiser foundation is going to pay people $10,000 to live in Tulsa for a year

    The George Kaiser Family Foundation has come up with another bright idea — a bold and creative plan that is sure to catch a lot of attention.

    The foundation — the guys behind Gathering Place, Guthrie Green and dozens of other innovative ideas that invest in Tulsa's current and potential futures — and the city are rolling out Tulsa Remote, which will offer a $10,000 grant, free working space, discounted rent and more to talented people who will move to and work remotely from Tulsa for a year.

    That's right, Mr. Programmer, Ms. Entrepreneur, we'll give you $10,000, and all the rest of that stuff just to telecommute for 12 months. No Austin traffic. No New York City crime. No Boston winter.

    The underlying gamble is this: After 12 months, the young talent will grow to love Tulsa and the remote workers will want to stay here. In itself that's not such a big payout — one more white collar worker in Tulsa — but its potential is fascinating. The program will create a pool of young, tech-savvy innovators and thought leaders who will think of Tulsa as home for at least a year, maybe more. Could we win the race to finding the next Bill Gates? Maybe we'll create a cohort of smaller success stories — new Tulsans with new ideas instead.

    There's not a penny of public money involved. The funds for this effort are provided exclusively by GKFF, which is as it should be. It's a gamble to see if we can win the hearts and minds of future leaders.

    Obviously, the folks at the Kaiser foundation love Tulsa, and they're willing to stake their own money on the chance that other people — strangers to the city now — will love it, too, if they just have a little incentive.

  16. CS Grads... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You only need a few dozen good ones... To fix the fuckups of the 25,000 to 35,000 graduates.

    1. Re: CS Grads... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, but those few good people that make the corrections will never be promoted - software perfection is never rewarded - bugs are needed in order to make your project seem bigger and valuable - change fast, fix slow, get more money

    2. Re:CS Grads... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Matches my observations.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  17. Re:FREE LUNCH IN TULSA by MMC+Monster · · Score: 1

    Heard it was available for 20 people. If so, that's not a lot of incentive to apply. My guess is that you've got more than 20 applications already.

    --
    Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
  18. Re:110010001000 = fake name massive human fail by 110010001000 · · Score: 0

    How outrageous! A personal attack in the Internet? I am going to tell the Internet police about you and you are going to be in real trouble now.

  19. There's no shortage of those in America by rsilvergun · · Score: 1, Insightful

    But we'd have to fully fund our schools and have training programs to use them. With India you don't just get somebody who's trained, you get somebody trained on their own dime. They have to do compete in the screwed up economy over there. This is all part of the race to the bottom that Marx warned us about, but all anyone can remember about Marx is that Stalin and Mao borrowed his books for rhetoric...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:There's no shortage of those in America by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      >But we'd have to fully fund our schools and have training programs to use them.

      You think only the US has schools?

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    2. Re:There's no shortage of those in America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you get somebody trained on their own dime

      To a very low standard that might be acceptable in India but would rightly be rejected as crap in the US or Europe were standards and expectations are much higher. Hiring these Indian "engineers" is probably more damaging to most projects than simply not hiring them at all. The standards in India are mostly just too low.

    3. Re: There's no shortage of those in America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The industry clearly disagrees with you. I mean eventually the cracks start showing and people get smarter right? Indian IT labor has been around for a good 15 years now. They seem to be good enough. Maybe people can't afford or need your "high standards".

    4. Re:There's no shortage of those in America by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      all anyone can remember about Marx is that Stalin and Mao borrowed his books for rhetoric...

      Don't forget Bernie Sanders.

    5. Re: There's no shortage of those in America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Indian IT labor has been around for a good 15 years now."

      That explains why both wages and software quality have been declining for about 15 years...

  20. You can't just stamp out CS majors by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Even with a lot of incentives for being a CS grad, I have personally seen that a lot of people just do not like being in a pure CS major. I honestly have no idea how they could possible double the number of grads...

    Maybe sixth super high bonuses for every successful CS grad? Maybe.

    Or maybe you redefine the requirements for what a CS major needs to take... I suppose that might do it.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:You can't just stamp out CS majors by gweihir · · Score: 1

      We pretty much have already anybody competent and qualified and a lot of semi-competent ones getting that degree. The only way to increase these numbers is to give the degree to the incompetent. That actually will produce "graduates" with massively negative productivity. There is a reason any STEM field has high standards for its graduates. Apparently, CS does still not qualify as "serious".

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  21. Do we really need that many CS Degree holders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As much as there is a focus on CS. What about actual engineers and scientists (nothing related to computer software)? I know there is a shortage of CS engineers, but all those other specialties are also in short supply and probably contribute more to advances in society. We need these engineers and scientists to design hardware, new materials, chemicals, engines, and to better our understanding of the planet and universe.

  22. Re: FREE LUNCH IN TULSA by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    My guess is that you've got more than 20 applications already.

    Only from folks whose experience with the place is limited to flying over it.

  23. and not a one gets an amazon job.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just a $250k debt and a job at starbucks.

    1. Re:and not a one gets an amazon job.. by mermeid007 · · Score: 1

      Can't wait. Or can I?

  24. Re:FREE LUNCH IN TULSA by mangastudent · · Score: 0

    Heard it was available for 20 people. If so, that's not a lot of incentive to apply.

    That's an appropriate number for a pilot program.

    Tulsa's too high crime for my tastes, but I'm sure its much lower that the rate in which lots of the targeted population live. And it's a shall issue concealed carry state, so you've at least got a fighting chance if you so choose.

  25. This is how Government Solves problems folks by SirAstral · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know many of you have valid complaints about this system but this is how these problems are solved when you get government involve. This is not an anti-government rant either. There are some things you need government to solve and there are things that you don't need government to solve. This problem is not a problem you need government to solve.

    For everyone saying Free-Market is dead, this is its replacement. The gerrymandering of resources and products from behind the scenes using slight of hand and and a couple of rhetorical platitudes. The Free-Market is not just something this generation of Americans hate, but also something that has been long killed off by the previous generation that "espoused" it.

    No business or government likes or wants a free-market because they have little to no control in them. They have to compete with the choices that consumers are making and in order to gain that control, they will create a problem that does not exist, but matches closely enough with one to make it appear valid. The same strategy of convincing citizens that governments need to build massive armies to protect them only to use them as a police force is the same strategy here. Make a NON problem up so that control or a gimmick can be introduced to remove liberty or suppress consumers/citizens in some way that is not immediately apparent.

    There is no enterprise as industrious as Government when it comes to solving problems that never existed. America has most definitely either become or is headlong into being an Oligarchy. I cannot think of a single area of life from Taxes to Food where a business has not sweet talked (bribed) government into creating a regulation that serves them instead of protecting the citizen and this "deal" is just one more example of the thousands of examples that are out there.

    1. Re:This is how Government Solves problems folks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... a regulation that serves them instead of protecting the citizen ...

      Politicians vote for it because it's comforting to think protecting profits (and a campaign 'donation') equals protecting jobs, houses and children; their real job. Such back-pocket politics means corruption of government and the voter: A sincere government cannot change any anti-free-market/corporate welfare regulation without affecting a sizable number of voters. Any attempt to change causes voters to proclaim "fuck you, I've got mine" and divide the "one nation, indivisible" even more. Include 35 years of fake news and a major political party lying about the economy to ensure voters put profits first, most-times. If they don't, the Manchin Amendment No. 715 and bank bail-out prove that corporations can command the politicians directly.

    2. Re:This is how Government Solves problems folks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No business or government likes or wants a free-market because they have little to no control in them.

      Why do you assert this? Because of the word "free"?

      At best a different group of people will have more control.

  26. Should Carry by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    And it's a shall issue concealed carry state

    If they carry on with the program, a great addition might be a handgun of your choice foreach person that takes them up on the offer, and three security cameras.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  27. All this nonsense by Beeftopia · · Score: 4, Interesting

    All this nonsense, and the tax breaks/subsidies, while the headquarters were always going to go in close to his residences :)

    Bezos is a brilliant guy no question, but this shows how effective a negotiator he is, and how ineffective, outside of military force, politicians are.

  28. So they will also graduate the incompetent? by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Because current numbers already contain all the semi-competent and you cannot "produce" smart people...

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:So they will also graduate the incompetent? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      The education will reflect the demographics of the surrounding community.
      Take in lots of really random people.
      Educate them with lots of new ideas. New ways to teach computers. Robot kits and new GUI. Computer ethics and less of that complex old math.
      Expect the education to work for this generation as its a new way of educating.
      See what the tests and exams show.
      Work out that using merit to select students first would have been a good idea. Past decades showed that too.
      New data shows more new money is needed for more computer education.
      Offer more education at work to support people who have just graduated with their educational needs.
      Create more new jobs to look after new workers who will always need decades more educational support.
      A skilled computer professional to look after larger teams new computer graduates. Work becomes further education and support for years.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  29. Re:FREE LUNCH IN TULSA by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

    My guess is that you've got more than 20 applications already.

    My guess, it that the 20 "winners" are politically well connected and were planning on moving to Tulsa anyway.

    And will have been selected, before the "program" was even announced.

    20 folks are a gimmick . . . 2000 would be a program.

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  30. Re: FREE LUNCH IN TULSA by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    Tulsa's too high crime for my tastes

    That's the least of its problems; the bad part is north Tulsa which throws me off the average immensely.

  31. So they why would Amazon even want this... by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    I totally agree with you, that the only way to really increase numbers are to include a lot of people who are just not good at CS... so why would Amazon even want such people?

    It lends a lot of veracity to what others were posting, that it's just a ploy for Amazon to get more H1-B workers.

    More programmers for Alexa I guess!

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:So they why would Amazon even want this... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      H1-B, or generally lowering salaries for CS graduates. The latter would be an incredibly stupid thing to do, because it would just mean even more smart people stay away from CS.

      Personally, I can only recommend CS or IT-related studies these days for people that both have an engineering mind-set and are way above average. All others are going to be treated like Morlocks that have no value and are easily interchangeable. It is an utter disgrace.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  32. Re: Well... no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To answer your second question: Amazon.

  33. I don't see any problem here by oldgraybeard · · Score: 0

    Just change the titles on the degrees before you print them up
    Gender Studies/Computer Science
    Art History/Computer Science
    Sports Medicine Therapy/Computer Science
    Political Science/Computer Science
    etc, etc, etc, problem solved. Everyone knows a college degree is just proof an individual is educated and can do any job.

    The government is going to create/accomplish something by investing (giving a bunch of other peoples money to their buddies) in said project. lolololololol

    If you don't believe me just figure out what the government's cost per job created is?

    Just my 2 cents ;)

  34. more brogrammers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just what the world needs, more programmers. better off being a lawyer.

  35. guns don't protect. people do. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so whats the statistic of lives saved by guns in them thar okliehomie?

  36. Do you really need CS grads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To shuffle around packages in a warehouse? That's about the only job we can hope for as locals.

  37. guns don't protect. people carrying gun do by mangastudent · · Score: 1

    Nationwide, ~2.5 million per year, and that figure is from a while ago, quite a few more people are legally carrying concealed, while ~27% of the population isn't allowed to. Broken down by state, you'd need to see if that was one of the states the CDC included in their Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) 1996, 1997, and 1998 surveys which recently came to light, or see if one of the others breaks it down by state.

    1. Re:guns don't protect. people carrying gun do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you are saying that the murder rate would increase from 18,000 to 2.518 million per year? This seems a little unlikely.

      700,000 soldiers from the UK died in WW1, from a population of roughly 50 million, or roughly 160,000 per annum. If we scale up 50 million to 330 million, that would be 1 million per annum. So you are saying that without guns owned by law abiding citizens, the USA would be considerably worse than the trenches of WW1. If so, guns aren't the underlying problem.

      There might be valid claims for lives saved through the use of guns, but 2.5 million fails the credibility test.

    2. Re:guns don't protect. people carrying gun do by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      That the total of "Defensive Gun Uses" per year; obviously not all would result in the death of the defender, but plenty would. Given our somewhat similar demographics, our murder rate would perhaps more resemble Brazil's.

      Only the stupid and/or evil believe or claim guns are the underlying problem, there's always been plenty of people willing and able to use lethal force to achieve the goals, see for example the obscure guy name Abel in the Bible. The major question is a society's ability and willingness to suppress this, which is by no means a given, see anarcho-tyranny where the ruling class allies themselves with the criminal class to keep the rest in line. Something we're seeing more and more in the open in the US. Ditto outright Marxism and its universal killing fields if and when they seize power.

    3. Re: guns don't protect. people carrying gun do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, Cain murdered Abel, not the other way around.

      Second, the bible is fiction.

      Third... fuck, who even knows at this point. Good luck in life.

  38. Re: FREE LUNCH IN TULSA by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    "Me?" No.

  39. Great Leap Forward by swm · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a Great Leap Forward for software

    The Great Leap Forward was an economic and social campaign by the Communist Party of China. The campaign was led by Chairman Mao Zedong and aimed to rapidly transform the country from an agrarian economy into a socialist society through rapid industrialization and collectivization. However, it is commonly considered to have caused the Great Chinese Famine.

    Backyard furnaces were small steel blast furnaces used by the people of China during the Great Leap Forward (1958–62).[1][2] These were constructed in the backyards of the communes, and were done so to further fulfill the Great Leap Forward's ideology of the rapid industrialization of China.

    However, most of the steel was impure and of poor quality and thus cracked easily. Not until 1959 did the Party realize that the only steel of any worth being produced was in the large-smelting plants. Even worse, the tending to Backyard Furnaces in the communes denied peasants the time and opportunity to produce food, effectively starving many and directly contributing to the Great Chinese Famine that struck the country only a year later.

    1. Re:Great Leap Forward by aberglas · · Score: 1

      The big issue for the famine not the furnaces but the grossly incompetent management of the collectivesed farms. They did things like over plant and plough too deep based on idiotic communist theories. Then the management claimed huge success despite failures, and sent the food to the cities. Some 30 million starved to death. Hundreds of millions would have been desperately, chronically hungry.

      It was Dilbert ^ 2, or maybe 2 ^ Dilbert. But involving life and death. I'd like to think that western cultures would revolt against such bad management.

       

  40. I'm gonna call BS on that by rsilvergun · · Score: 2, Informative

    His travel ban was upheld. And he's repeatedly shown a willingness to do thing that'll get him sued. Face it, he forgot about us. I'd be less angry if it wasn't such a central plank of his campaign. But hell, he forgot about the Carrier Air folks too. Their jobs are on the way to Mexico. And they get to keep the multi-million dollar subsidy Trump gave them to boot.

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  41. Judicial review; Code of Federal Regulations by tepples · · Score: 1

    Pitty, I figured congress was supposed to make laws. Not the courts

    The courts exist in part to figure out whether the Congress exceeded the powers that the Constitution grants to the Congress.

    or the President

    The Congress has chosen to make some laws in broad strokes and create administrative agencies to hammer out the details on behalf of the Congress.

    Maybe I missed something during my civics classes.

    If your civics class skipped "judicial review" and "Code of Federal Regulations", you can look them up on any major web search engine.

    1. Re: Judicial review; Code of Federal Regulations by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      "The courts exist in part to figure out whether the Congress exceeded the powers that the Constitution grants to the Congress."

      Be sure to check out Marbury v. Madison, the Supreme Court case where the power of judicial review was invented. Note that no mention of such a power appears in the Constitution.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...

  42. They Just Want to Flood The Market for AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Folks, this is all a bunch of BS. Basically, if they can flood the market with programmers and eventually reduce their pay to $15.00 an hour or so, that's when AI will take over. They'll say, "Well, this is the way things are leaning these days, and we're just going with the flow." In other words, they're going to try to make it look as if they slowly moved into AI and or not the culprits, when the truth of the matter is that they planned all of this and led us down the path to begin with.

  43. One more thing, it was created with the stroke by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    of a pen, so yes, it can be ended with the stroke of a pen.

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  44. Most Companies Don't Need Computer Scientists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They only think that they do. Moreover, the day-to-day work of software development which mostly includes writing code, maintaining code lines, writing tests, managing builds and coordinating releases is more akin to a skilled trade whereas the world of computer science is decidedly more academic. It exists in the realm of theories, papers and research and not so much in the day-to-day realities of writing production code to meet commercial deadlines. Also, it takes many years or even decades to produce a top quality computer scientist. This is why companies that do hire them, like Google, often insist upon PhD level qualifications and assign them to research instead of day-to-day software development. Few people in the general population are qualified to embark upon this difficult and demanding course of study and those who are are either going to want an academic research career or be very well paid by the companies that employ them to do research. Setting up a diploma mill to churn out low quality computer science graduates isn't really going to end up satisfying anybody. Neither the companies who claim that they want to hire these graduates, nor the legislators who enabled the funding for their educations nor ultimately the students who will find themselves deeply indebted with student loans but without the sort of practical skills that companies actually need for them to have to produce real software. The code bootcamps are at the other extreme, producing short term workers armed with golden hammers for specific hot technologies, which inevitably fall out of fashion, but without the sort of holistic knowledge of the craft of programming needed for long term success as a commercial software developer without which they quickly become the proverbial flash in the pan. What is needed is a more generally accepted recognition that professional software development is a skilled trade, separate from any specific domain knowledge, and the opening of 2 or 3 year schools combined with apprenticeships to produce the sort of workers that companies actually need to hire rather than expensive workers that they think they need or will need to hire but actually don't or won't. This will make the students happier as well, since many of them study computer science not because they're really interested in the theory of computing in an academic sense but because they want to work professionally as software developers and all of the job postings put CS degree on their laundry lists. So while the degree may be interesting for them, it's fairly wasteful to spend 4 or even more years pursuing it as an undergraduate or even to a masters level just to become a glorified code plumber which isn't to knock on plumbers, we'd all be standing knee deep in shit without them, but when you need a plumber you hire a certified plumber, not an academic certified in the theory of plumbing.

  45. Fucking magic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I tell you what.

  46. That's not what I said by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    I don't even know what would make you say that, but let me be a little more blunt: I'm saying the American Right wing no longer invests in schooling in America because they can get cheap, already trained workers overseas and bring them here. This is why college is so expensive now: we cut federal and state funding starting in the mid 90s and continued up until the mid 2000s only stopping when it was all but gone.
    If companies didn't have cheap labor from overseas they wouldn't have allowed that to happen. They'd want the taxpayer to subsidize their training programs. When the cold war was going on and they were too scared to take their factories overseas and India wasn't cranking out It workers they had to coddle us. That's over. Now they're back to shitting on us. Meanwhile we're busy kicking down blaming Blacks, Mexicans, SJWs, Jews or whatever group's popular on reddit for the blame game while they're laughing at us all the way to the bank...

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    1. Re: That's not what I said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But H1-Bs aren't cheap labor. They all charge much more than the median American salary. The only negative of a H1-B is that it's a captured labor unit. That's bad but it's certainly not "cheap labor".

  47. IMPERSONATING ME AGAIN? apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ach Paterson/ZIP + c6gunner 'Greatest Hits': "I'm a much better programmer than APK" - by Anonymous Coward ZIP on Monday October 08, 2018 @11:27PM (#57449082)

    BIG TALK - ZIP has no programs to show as proof.

    I do https://news.slashdot.org/comm...

    (From registered /.ers liking/using/praising my work + 100k users worldwide)

    ZIP tried to take credit for what I solved before him https://tech.slashdot.org/comm...

    He codes? He can't EVEN READ!

    I show 2 ways to do it YOURSELF https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... - he can't.

    Delphi/FreePascal/ObjectPascal HAS no null-term'd string bufferoverflows https://developers.slashdot.or... - C does, C++ can UNLESS you do what I said 1st.

    He likes CODE SIGNING (it's been STOLEN & ABUSED) https://www.helpnetsecurity.co...

    MY METHOD CAN'T BE (upmodded +2 INTERESTING in CODING FOR DEFCON) https://it.slashdot.org/commen...

    ZIP says he has no /. acct "I don't have an account so I don't have mod points" https://news.slashdot.org/comm...

    Yet ZIP says he downmods me (IMPOSSIBLE w/ no /. acct.): "I down-modded a few of your post" - by Anonymous Coward "ZIP" on Thursday October 11, 2018 @11:31AM (#57461058)

    APK

    P.S.=> KEEP IMPERSONATING ME like https://science.slashdot.org/c... (I'd never say that OR bitch to do-NOTHING "ne'er-do-wells" like ZIP OR c6gunner https://linux.slashdot.org/com... (he 1st mocked me & impersonated me TWISTING /.ers words & after that, I FAIRLY challenged him to show HE DID BETTER & that was his response (weak))!

    Above EXPOSES your BLOWHARD incompetence... apk

  48. Wasn't I w/ proof (from gweihir)... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject & proof via https://it.slashdot.org/commen...

    * Trolls doing it are attacking others trying to make it look like ME doing it (clipping my ribbing on them & pasting it to others they want to "turn against me" etc. (bitch boy tactics, lol)).

    APK

    P.S.=> They made a HUGE MISTAKE doing it to gweihir as he & I have been thru it w/ them before (they tried to "stir me up" vs him by IMPERSONATING him my way & I was sensible enough to ask him DIRECTLY "was it you doing it" & he said ABSOLUTELY NOT & called them (lol) DEFICIENTS, hahaha) - & you're one of my users who said:

    I personally use a HOSTS file blocker produced from a genius called APK by 110010001000 October 27 2017

    You're the LAST PERSON (or type) I'd attack - they really "F'd up" today between gweihir & you... apk

  49. Not that Amazon would tell the truth by zkiwi34 · · Score: 1

    But, I am fairly sure they have zero intention of hiring any of these (imaginary) CS graduates.

  50. race to the bottom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a race to the bottom - and we're gonna win!

  51. Can't rewrite history (yet) by mangastudent · · Score: 1
    Then you should change the Wikipedia entry on the program, starting with this sentence in the first summary paragraph:

    The policy, an executive branch memorandum, was announced by President Barack Obama on June 15, 2012.

    Before that, many efforts in the Congress failed. And now the Federal courts, Ninth District and New York ones, have ordered it can't be undone.

    Does any of this sound like the functioning of a "democracy", aside of course from it not passing in the Congress? Do you think there's any way this will end well?