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Apple Maps Gooses DuckDuckGo In Search Privacy Partnership (cnet.com)

Search engine DuckDuckGo now displays location information from Apple Maps in its search results. "DuckDuckGo now uses Apple Maps both for small maps in location-related search results and for larger, interactive search results that appear in a separate maps tab," reports CNET. "That replaces a combination including MapBox, OpenStreetMap and homegrown technology." From the report: The top reason DuckDuckGo argues you should try it is that it doesn't keep any personal information on you and what you searched for, unlike search leader Google. That dovetails nicely with Apple's sustained push to improve online privacy. But maintaining your privacy can be tough when you're looking for location-related information. DuckDuckGo says it's struck a balance, though. It doesn't send personally identifiable information such as your computer's Internet Protocol network address, to Apple or other third parties, DuckDuckGo said. "For local searches, where your approximate location information is sent by your browser to us, we discard it immediately after use," the company added.

56 comments

  1. That's mildly disappointing by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I would have preferred it if Duckduckgo had worked with Openstreetmap. If would have fitted their general self-declared ethics better methink.

    So yeah, going to bed with Apple is better than integrating into the Google collective - although I don't believe Apple's good intentions for one second, and working with Google was never an option for DDG in the first place anyway. But it's kind of meh really...

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    1. Re:That's mildly disappointing by Dan+East · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I would have preferred it if Duckduckgo had worked with Openstreetmap.

      OSM provides the data, however they do not provide hosting of tilesets. From OSM's terms:

      OpenStreetMap’s own servers are run entirely on donated resources. They have strictly limited capacity. Heavy use of OSM tiles adversely affects people’s ability to edit the map, and is an abuse of the individual donations and sponsorship which provide hardware and bandwidth. As a result, we require that users of the tiles abide by this tile usage policy.

      OpenStreetMap data is free for everyone to use. Our tile servers are not.

      Emphasis theirs. That is why DuckDuckGo was using MapBox. MapBox hosts tilesets generated from Open Street Map data (plus they have some really sweet interactive map styling tools and can provide tiles in your own styles), however MapBox gets expensive if the volume is high, and certainly DuckDuckGo's volume is extremely high.

      Also, MapBox uses tracking just like Google to generate traffic layers for their maps. Apps that have MapBox embedded in them are contributing their location data and motion for MapBox to generate live traffic maps, exactly like Google Maps.

      So it's likely that DuckDuckGo is no worse off using Apple for their maps, from a privacy and data sharing perspective.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    2. Re:That's mildly disappointing by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 5, Insightful

      OSM provides the data, however they do not provide hosting of tilesets. From OSM's terms

      What I meant was DDG using OSM data and rolling their own service. It's more expensive than using a 3rd party provider - which is cheaper because it gets to exploit the data DDG will inevitably hand over to them - but if DDG truly cared about privacy, they would have done it.

      That's what's mildly disappointing: it tells me DDG is okay with compromising when it suits them. Pragmatically, I understand these services cost money to run and provide for free. Yet I can't help drawing a parallel with an early version of another company that promised not to do evil but eventually gave up on the promise.

      In other words, I'm wondering if this is the first sign that DDG is abandoning its ideals (because of simple economics, no doubt) and will eventually go full nasty, like all the other big data players.

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    3. Re: That's mildly disappointing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would love for a search engine to not point me to reddit or yelp. DDG is effectively selling your data through search results to the highest bidder under the cloud of privacy. Apple Maps is just a continuation of this issue

    4. Re:That's mildly disappointing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple's just a run-of-the-mill greedy megacorporation while Google's trying to be literal Big Brother. Sadly the traditional greedy megacorporation is the lesser of two evils here.

    5. Re:That's mildly disappointing by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      If you'd prefer to use OSM, you should check your settings in DuckDuckGo. You can change your "Direction Source" (i.e. map provider) between Apple, Bing, HERE, Google, and OpenStreetMap. I have no idea who HERE is, but the rest should be self-explanatory.

    6. Re:That's mildly disappointing by ediron2 · · Score: 1

      Jeez, give it a break. First, it ain't like 'rolling their own' mapping application is as easy ordering chinese takeout. And despite Apple's spectacularly-better scores from security analysts on hardware encryption and privacy-impacted data collected, you declare (without evidence) that a partnership with Apple is proof of DDG engaging in a much larger sellout. That's some serious bullshitery (quotes and links below).

      DDG mapping appears to give requested features, with an improved security default to rely upon (DDG + Apple maps put through DDG's ability to filter and consolidate in ways that degrade tracking and provide moderate anonymization). The enemy of Good Enough, in this case, is a false choice of Perfect or Nothing.

      DDG sayeth: "Naturally, our strict privacy policy of not collecting or sharing any personal information extends to this integration. We do not send any personally identifiable information such as IP address to Apple or other third parties. For local searches, where your approximate location information is sent by your browser to us, we discard it immediately after use. You are still anonymous when you perform map and address-related searches on DuckDuckGo. You can read more about our anonymous localized results here."

      The only element where DDG seems unduly optimistic is in that linked paper on anonymized-localized results, toward the bottom. They say doing what they do makes your activity 'completely anonymous'. Web bugs, clientside code, partnership-maintained tracking and/or any continuum of user activity breaches that veil. But search requests through DDG *breaks* what they can of that continuum by degrees, since they don't tokenize, save and track themselves, and they don't relay request data that helps that. So, someone might track my activity via their own trickery or partnership-maintained-tracking in the pages I visit, but the misdeeds of other websites aren't DDG's direct fault.

    7. Re:That's mildly disappointing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HERE, formerly Nokia Here.

  2. What is wrong using Google in private tab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As much as I hate Google, I use Safari with private tab. In Safari private mode, each tab is a separate session. I use separate tab for google search where I don't log into any website. Also, typical lifetime of my tab is an hour or two. What does google do with my anonymous data collected from private tab? In addition, I use VPN which assigns me random ip every day. Not just Google, but I am anonymous everywhere where I don't log in. If at all I login, I use separate tabs for each website and kill the tab when done. So unless they fingerprint my browser, not much data collection can happen. Yes, I am anonymous coward!

    1. Re: What is wrong using Google in private tab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can tell by your searches who you are.

    2. Re:What is wrong using Google in private tab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using VPN? Should technically be end-to-end encrypted. And if you aren't logged in, the other end doesn't know who you are, either.

      And even if you don't use VPN, on a cellular connection the external IP address changes so often as to make the data useless. But yes, without a VPN the ISP (wired or cellular) does know who you are and what you search for. But I don't feel quite as queasy about them knowing what I do as I do the Borg themselves knowing (Google, MS, etc)

    3. Re:What is wrong using Google in private tab by AHuxley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The repeated search history and patterns add up to the discovery of the person.
      A VPN does not change the words used to search. Its just a new IP every search.
      The terms used to search are the key to tracking a person not just their ISP/IP.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    4. Re:What is wrong using Google in private tab by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      So unless they fingerprint my browser, not much data collection can happen.

      That's like saying, "So unless robbers do what robbers do, not much will be stolen."

      Of course they're fingerprinting your browser. Hell, Google was just fined a few years ago for exploiting a bug in Safari that allowed them to track private Safari users like you. The bug was fixed and Google isn't allowed to exploit bugs like that any longer, but there's nothing stopping them from using the other, "legitimate" tools available to them to track you.

      Just off the top of my head and depending on how careful you are, you can likely still be identified between sessions thanks to the fonts you have installed; your user agent string and browser properties; "supercookies" in canvas elements, local storage, Flash, or header properties injected by your ISP and/or VPN (have you actually checked your VPN's terms to confirm that they protect your privacy? Many of them are just as bad as traditional ISPs); local storage communication between tabs (e.g. you ever wonder how other tabs know when to refresh after you log into Google in a different tab? Local storage is how); your mouse movements; the style of your prose; your typing cadence; your search terms; your pattern of activity during the day; and the list goes on and on.

      You're not nearly as anonymous as you think. They may not know your IP, but who cares when they still know it's you?

    5. Re:What is wrong using Google in private tab by swillden · · Score: 1

      The repeated search history and patterns add up to the discovery of the person. A VPN does not change the words used to search. Its just a new IP every search. The terms used to search are the key to tracking a person not just their ISP/IP.

      If it's a different IP and a private/incognito tab, there's no way to connect one search to another, so no way to link them to a person, and therefore no way to "discover" a person.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    6. Re: What is wrong using Google in private tab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think we donâ(TM)t know about session cookies shillden? Another day, another day Shawn Willden continues his bosses PR campaign

  3. I think it fits by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would have preferred it if Duckduckgo had worked with Openstreetmap. If would have fitted their general self-declared ethics better methink.

    I think it fits in pretty well with general ethics, since Apple goes to great lengths to keep user data private.

    If you compare the two on the web, Apple Maps performs somewhat better, and also presents store information better.

    It's kind of an odd integration at the moment though, as you have to get to a map through DuckDuckGo, then once open there's no way to re-search the map you are viewing without going back to the DDG search screen.

    Something interesting I saw also - when I searched fro a local Discount Tire, my iPhone revealed the correct location exactly, as did OpenStreetMaps (which you'd expect). But from Duck Duck Go, it was located on the wrong side of the service street it lies along... it kind of seems like maybe Duck Duck Go is just handing off a GPS location and not leaning on Apple Maps understanding of where businesses are really located.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:I think it fits by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Something interesting I saw also - when I searched fro a local Discount Tire, my iPhone revealed the correct location exactly, as did OpenStreetMaps (which you'd expect). But from Duck Duck Go, it was located on the wrong side of the service street it lies along... it kind of seems like maybe Duck Duck Go is just handing off a GPS location and not leaning on Apple Maps understanding of where businesses are really located.

      And that's a good thing - it reduces the amount of data that Apple is getting. While Apple is about privacy, why not take the extra step to make sure Apple isn't getting useful information?

      Sure the location will end up wrong from time to time, but it means Apple only gets coordinates rather than information that was searched for. And even if Apple promises to keep it secret, why take the chance? Just give a GPS coordinate and let Apple try to figure out which of a dozen businesses a user searched for.

      No need to provide more information than needed, after all.

    2. Re:I think it fits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple goes to great lengths to keep user data private

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh shit that's rich, son! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

      Actually, it's true, slashtard:

      https://www.apple.com/privacy/

      But don't let facts interfere with your knee-jerk Apple Hatred.

    3. Re:I think it fits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something interesting I saw also - when I searched fro a local Discount Tire, my iPhone revealed the correct location exactly, as did OpenStreetMaps (which you'd expect). But from Duck Duck Go, it was located on the wrong side of the service street it lies along... it kind of seems like maybe Duck Duck Go is just handing off a GPS location and not leaning on Apple Maps understanding of where businesses are really located.

      And that's a good thing - it reduces the amount of data that Apple is getting. While Apple is about privacy, why not take the extra step to make sure Apple isn't getting useful information?

      Sure the location will end up wrong from time to time, but it means Apple only gets coordinates rather than information that was searched for. And even if Apple promises to keep it secret, why take the chance? Just give a GPS coordinate and let Apple try to figure out which of a dozen businesses a user searched for.

      No need to provide more information than needed, after all.

      And it kind of acts as an assurance that Apple is actually keeping themselves in the dark about that level of detail, just like they say...

      Imagine that: A company that actually does what it says, and says what it does.

    4. Re: I think it fits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you believe Apples public privacy statement? You're the idiot here!

    5. Re: I think it fits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you believe Apples public privacy statement? You're the idiot here!

      Prove that Apple is lying.

    6. Re: I think it fits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not the other commenter; however, I must comment that if Apple truly cared about safeguarding user data, they wouldn't collect it at all. It's impossible to steal/sell something that doesn't exist.

    7. Re:I think it fits by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Let's cut to the chase, choosing Apple will in terms of marketing penetration, allow DuckDuckGo to more readily Goose Google and that is what it is all about. From Apple's perspective, DuckDuckGo, allows it to penetrate more into Google Android territory.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  4. Very slow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) Seems to be slow, I doubt Apple have invested in the infrastructure to deliver fast tile results (to Thailand)
    2) Scroll wheel zoom in/out not working (Apple 'bravery'?)
    3) Double click zoom is linear speed, I'm use to it being parabolic, it feels more natural that way.

    Like the clear colors
    Like the rotate (via the N icon)
    Like the clear labelling and visual cues (Google Maps for Phuket is so pale as to be unusable)

    But the lack of mouse wheel zoom is a show stopper for me.
    I don't see how there's a privacy issue there, I don't let the browser send location data, and that was the same as OpenStreetMaps.

    I continue to use Here Maps.
    http://maps.here.com
    It remains my go to for mapping, route planning etc, including their app for car GPS.

    1. Re:Very slow by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      But the lack of mouse wheel zoom is a show stopper for me.

      I have noticed a trend of abandoning mouse interoperability in lots of places. The touch screen crowd is a bigger market now. It sucks.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
  5. Apple with the Loud Moral High Ground by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yeah, Apple has a sustained push to improve privacy. That's why they accepted money from Google to make its search the default. That way they get to trumpet loudly about having the moral high-ground, while still pocketing billions from their customers' personal data.

    1. Re:Apple with the Loud Moral High Ground by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      So many US brands kept PRISM private for the US gov.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  6. Apple doesn't know what the scroll wheel is for by mschaffer · · Score: 0

    Too bad that Apple maps doesn't know about scroll wheels. I guess they don't have them on Macs.

    1. Re:Apple doesn't know what the scroll wheel is for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You obviously know nothing about MacOs or how the Apple wireless mouse works.

    2. Re:Apple doesn't know what the scroll wheel is for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent down!

    3. Re:Apple doesn't know what the scroll wheel is for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mac users cannot handle complicated UIs. That's why there is one button.

      OMFG!

      A one-button mouse meme in 2019!!!!

      Will you NEVER learn?!?

    4. Re:Apple doesn't know what the scroll wheel is for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mac mice have multi-directional touch surfaces instead of one-dimensional scroll wheels. Much more useful, but because it's more natural and less mechanical it doesn't earn any geek credits with the clever crowd.

  7. Re:THERE ARE ALWAYS CONSEQUENCES NAZI FAGGOT KEN D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    >Kendall
    >KEN DOLL

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanging

    In psychology and psychiatry, clanging refers to a mode of speech characterized by association of words based upon sound rather than concepts. For example, this may include compulsive rhyming or alliteration without apparent logical connection between words. This is associated with the irregular thinking apparent in psychotic mental illnesses (e.g. mania and schizophrenia).

  8. Here.maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think a lot of that's Google's bad choice in Android, if a mouse click isn't handled as a mouse click in Android apps, it isn't then treated as a touch,

    So apps that would be trivially supported with mice, simply don't work. Including all those Google TV devices. (Pichai endlessly trying to turn ChromeOS into a win, at the expense of Android no doubt).

    I like here maps, it works. My only issue with heremaps is that it pops up an advert for their Android and iOS apps, and most modern browsers block cookies, so it pops the advert up on every visit. It's annoying.

    But scroll works, navigation is excellent, the map is readable, even with lots of minor roads and few features, like the center of Phuket, and it works well as offline navigation in the app, and online navigation in the website and tablet browsers.

    I wish they'd offer free embedded maps for websites, because Google maps is starting to misbehave (e.g. "press ctrl scroll to zoom" ), which happens to be Firefox's *page* zoom..... why exactly do that?

    Overall, I'm happier that DuckDuckGo use Apple maps rather than Google maps.

  9. Well, explain it then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, why doesn't the scroll wheel work on the Apple Maps page?

    1. Re:Well, explain it then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably because you're not using an Apple mouse, an Apple OS and an Apple browser!

    2. Re:Well, explain it then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, why doesn't the scroll wheel work on the Apple Maps page?

      Hold down the shift key. MapKit JS is made for embedded maps in scrollable pages - and stopping scrolling the page just because your mouse cursor by chance ends up on an embedded object that steals the mouse wheel is stupid UI.

    3. Re: Well, explain it then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This.

  10. I can hear the screams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    of hundreds of DDG user getting lost when trying to get anywhere.

  11. Not working in NZ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just checked it out, and the actual map isnâ(TM)t showing anything here in NZ.

    1. Re:Not working in NZ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just checked it out, and the actual map isnâ(TM)t showing anything here in NZ.

      Look at the actual screen, not the sheep you are currently fucking.

  12. According to my dictionary, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Goose (verb) refers to sticking one's finger up the rectum of another. And I can't believe this hasn't been commented on by someone else yet.

  13. not 'goose'.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's GRAY DUCK.

  14. Gooses? by coofercat · · Score: 1

    What does 'gooses' mean? Geese? Chooses? What?

    1. Re:Gooses? by tuxkamen · · Score: 1

      Goose as a verb (idiom) means to play a practical joke upon someone. Not entirely sure how that is apropos to the article.

      --
      Use a little common sense once in a while. --Book of Mooch Ch. 5 verse 14
  15. Tim Cook's contribution by Bromancer · · Score: 1

    Duck duck go's search results will be displayed thinner font.

  16. Well that didn't last by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The premise that DDG operates under negates it from working with apple.

    This report renders DDGs arguments of free and uncompromised searches invalid whehter this goes forward or not.

    Or more simply: "What could possibly go wrong?"

  17. So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not really that important. What is important is if the maps scrolling on the website work with Mac running MacOS with an Apple mouse? If this doesn't work as well, then it's a bit shabby.