LG Announces G8 ThinQ Smartphone That Uses 'Advanced Palm Vein Authentication' Tech To Unlock (techcrunch.com)

LG's flagship G8 smartphone has been officially launched today, bringing many expected features that were teased over the past few months and several not-so-expected features. One such unusual feature in the G8 is its palm vein recognition, dubbed Hand ID, which LG claims is the first to offer this capability. TechCrunch reports: From the company's press materials, "LG's Hand ID identifies owners by recognizing the shape, thickness and other individual characteristics of the veins in the palms of their hands." It turns out, like faces and fingerprints, everyone's got a unique set of hand veins, so once registered, you can just however your hot blue blood tubes over the handset to quickly unlock in a few seconds. The Z camera also does depth-sensing face unlock that's a lot harder to spoof than the kind found on other Android handsets. LG's also put the tech to use for a set of Air Motion gestures, which allow for hands-free interaction with various apps like the camera (selfies) and music (volume control). Other features of the G8 include a 6.1-inch QHD+ "Crystal Sound OLED" display that uses the screen as an audio amplifier. There's a Snapdragon 855 processor with 6GB of RAM and 128GB internal storage, three cameras on the rear including a 16-megapixel Super Wide (F1.9), 12-megapixel Standard (F1.5), and 12-megapixel Telephoto (F2.4), a 3,500mAh battery that charges via USB-C, a headphone jack, and 32-bit Hi-Fi Quad DAC.

Comments

Screen as audio amplifier?

[LynnwoodRooster]

I believe you meant screen as audio transducer... At least it keeps the headphone jack!

Re:Screen as audio amplifier?

[thegarbz]

I believe you meant screen as audio transducer... At least it keeps the headphone jack!

I think amplifier could be perfectly acceptable use of the word here. The transducer is what would be acting on the back of the screen, and the shape of the screen amplifies the air pressure waves which would otherwise be tiny without the available surface area, but would none the less still be air pressure waves.

Re:Screen as audio amplifier?

[AmiMoJo]

The screen only acts as a transducer for calls. Basically a bone conduction system that makes it easier to hear the other person in a noisy environment. It can't be used as a speaker.

Re:Screen as audio amplifier?

[LynnwoodRooster]

So with your logic, for a loudspeaker, the motor (magnet circuit and voice coil) is the transducer, and the cone is the amplifier. Nope, not gonna let that one slide... A transducer in this case is what changes electrical energy into pressure - and that includes the radiating surface (since the pressure generated is proportional to the radiating surface, and the radiating surface is required for the transformation to take place).

Re:Screen as audio amplifier?

[LynnwoodRooster]

Yes, it could be used as a speaker. Even microphones can be used as speakers (albeit they suck), and a bone conduction transducer IS a speaker as well. Additionally, since SPL is proportional to displacement, and a screen is huge compared to a typical 6mm x 15mm speaker in a phone, you'd need precious little motion on that large area to get usable SPL output. A typical microspeaker has around 1.5mm - MAYBE 2mm - of maximum excursion. This screen has about 120 times the surface area, so you could have the same SPL level with around 16 microns of motion. LG may choose not to use it as a speaker - but it would actually be a pretty decent one, if the story is accurate that the entire screen moves...

Re:Screen as audio amplifier?

[AmiMoJo]

It /could/ be used as a speaker eventually, but in this specific product LG has limited it to phone calls and designed it solely for bone conduction.

Re:Screen as audio amplifier?

[LynnwoodRooster]

What I'm saying is it COULD be used right now - there is nothing physically limiting it from working that way. Your claim that it could not be used as a speaker is wrong; it's a choice LG has made right now, there is no physical reason it could not be used, given the level of excursion required to replace a traditional speaker.

Re:Screen as audio amplifier?

[AmiMoJo]

The physical limitation is that it's not loud enough in this phone.

Re:Screen as audio amplifier?

[thegarbz]

the motor (magnet circuit and voice coil) is the transducer

definitely.

and the cone is the amplifier

arguably.

Cut the cone out of an old loudspeaker. Notice it still makes sound but at a greatly reduced volume and efficiency?

in this case is what changes electrical energy into pressure

Like the the magnetic coil that applies the force to make something move?

and that includes the radiating surface

That is your own definition. In fact I can't find the radiating surface mentioned in Wikipedia or in my textbook.

since the pressure generated is proportional to the radiating surface

So you're saying a bigger radiating surface would "amplify" the pressure?

and the radiating surface is required for the transformation to take place

Again hold up one of those surface transducers in the air and hear that wonderful transformation having already taken place. Likewise cut the cone out of a speaker (but you need to point the speaker vertically) and listen to that transformation still making sound.

The word transducer doesn't include mention of volume or quality in its definition which makes it independent of its radiating surface. The word amplifier on the other hand ... well you get the point.

LG is a DECENT Phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an LG X Venture presently, and it's been a decent phone; though the intrusiveness of ANDROID asking me if I like a place I just visited seems to be a strange invasion of privacy. My son telling me to turn off the location services is an interesting fix, but then I hear that my location is intuited nonetheless by cell tower triangulation. I truly wish some OS would emerge that I could PAY FOR that would leave my privacy intact.

I'm on board if it can also read your fortune

[SuperKendall]

I look forward to lifeline analytics, so that the phone can send out texts if it thinks you are in peril that day.

I wonder how unique palm prints are, never have seen studies on that...

Re:I'm on board if it can also read your fortune

[Anonymous Coward]

I look forward to lifeline analytics, so that the phone can send out texts if it thinks you are in peril that day.

I wonder how unique palm prints are, never have seen studies on that...

I slapped your mama's ass and squeezed her titties so much you can probably lift a palm print from your mother's tits and ass. It wouldn't be the first time you saw your mom's tits and ass, onlly if you tell her it's 100% totally for lifting prints, maybe you won't have to hide and peek at her this time.

Re:I'm on board if it can also read your fortune

[Aighearach]

"NO! I'm NOT having an emergency! No, I didn't call for help. Stop stalking me!!!"

I so totally hope somebody sells you this feature. LMFAO

"Oh, it's just that guy in a SuperGrover costume with the smart watch again, false alarm." "... help... me... ...elp!"

Dude, it's called an iPhone

[SuperKendall]

I truly wish some OS would emerge that I could PAY FOR that would leave my privacy intact.

In what way does an iPhone not meet that criteria.

You can turn off location and know an app is not getting your location (from cell tower or otherwise, it can still do some determination based on IP address of the phone, but you can use a VPN to work around that).

You certainly will never be asked if you like a location looking it up in Apple Maps...

And of course since Apple makes money from the phones and not you, Apple is not getting any data you do not want them to have.

Re: Dude, it's called an iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares if an "app" knows your location, Android dev can spoof locations to mere apps. It's all about "the man" knowing your location, and that tracker in your pocket tells them often.

Re:Dude, it's called an iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

iPhone does not meet that criteria in the sense that a) it's a device, not an OS, and b) you can't pay for iOS and install it in your device.

The only OS that currently has that model, to an extent, is Sailfish. You can pay €50 for the OS and install it in your device if you don't fancy Android (currently a subset of Sony smartphones).

Re: Dude, it's called an iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think the cell providers sell location data to third parties in my country. The State likely gobbles it all. Now that would be fine, but if they turn it over to the Five Eyes and one of these do sell location data to third parties then advertisers could get hold of my location data! and even insurance companies etc.

Re:Dude, it's called an iPhone

[SuperKendall]

Reasonable point, he was kind of implying he wanted to be able to instal such an OS on what he had...

But still, if he truly cared he would go with Apple hardware to get at the OS that did what he wanted.

No matter how you try it...

[SirAstral]

BioMetrics is not a valid identity or security mechanism and will never be. Machines are not perfect, neither are you, and you could lose access to your devices if your bio-metrics change. Health problems, scraps, cuts, bruises, or even worse a lopped off limb could get you locked out of you device. Not only that but the technology to scan and learn you bio-metrics is the same technology to be used to store that data and use it in a replay. As seen in other cheap tricks like unlocking them with pictures. Yes, they will try to secure that further but at the end of the day, every part of your body can be replicated with impressive detail if someone wants to bad enough and the more and more this technology matures the more and more people will understand the feeling to being betrayed by their own security implementations.

I am sorry dave... but I can't let you ... o wait... Hello Master Key what do you want me to do?

Re:No matter how you try it...

[drinkypoo]

Biometrics plus your PIN helps protect you from everything but a rubber hose attack, which is always a threat, and a reason why we have to make a better future. Sadly, no phone can do that for us.

Re:No matter how you try it...

[Chryana]

Nobody is forcing you to use biometric authentication. You always need to set a password lock on your device if it fails to recognize you anyways. A lot of people "protect" their devices with such terrible passwords (I can see someone making an L or a square to unlock their phones without even meaning to) that biometric authentication turns out to be safer that what they're currently doing. My opinion is that, although in theory biometric authentication is weaker than a strong password, it protects you more effectively against theft (the most frequent attack vector in my opinion) than a password. A thief may be able to infer you password by looking at you type it; he may even record you with his cellphone while you're unlocking your own for when he gets a chance to steal your device. It's not likely though that he will be able to make a convincing fingerprint or even take a good enough picture of your face to fool some primitive face recognition technique which is frequent on some Android devices.

Re:No matter how you try it...

[religionofpeas]

Ok, so now a thief has to carry a weapon so he can force you to unlock the phone. Progress.

Re:No matter how you try it...

[Chryana]

Most thieves are not going to use violence to steal from you. I've had stuff stolen from me a few times, and it was always either something I was carrying but that I wasn't looking at, or they broke into a car, into my apartment, etc.

Re:No matter how you try it...

[Anonymous Coward]

The vein recognition has been broken - and published on the 35c3.

There is a translation of the talk of starbug:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qfU4YTgKXo

Re:No matter how you try it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because a password you have to type again and again and again in public is fucking flawless, of course. And because everybody is going to type a twenty random characters every ten minutes with caps and symbols, of course. Security and usability, all in one.

Re:No matter how you try it...

[religionofpeas]

Most thieves are not going to use violence to steal from you

Agreed. Most thieves are also not stalking you to see you enter the PIN code. They grab it out of your pocket/bag, or break into your car or your apartment, and then just sell the phone for a few bucks without trying to unlock it.

But in the situation where they really want to get into your phone, they will now be forced to use violence.

Re:No matter how you try it...

[Chryana]

If that was true, it would already be happening. People didn't start unlocking their phones with their thumbprints, faces, etc. yesterday.

Re:No matter how you try it...

[AmiMoJo]

Biometrics are a massive security win for most people. You simply don't understand the threat model most people face: Laziness and imperfect human memory.

Having a decent password is obviously best, but also annoying to have to type it in every time, vulnerable to shoulder surfing when used in public, and the more secure it is the easier it is to forget. Most people re-use their passwords too.

So for the majority of customers the choice is between no security, crap security like a short PIN number or unlock pattern (vulnerable to observation and smudge detection), or relatively difficult to bypass biometrics. Sure, a determined attacker could clone your fingerprints with sufficient fidelity to fool the sensor, but given that even the police don't seem to be able to do that I doubt it's much of a concern for most people.

Face unlock is probably the worst, if you are worried about your partner using it on you while asleep, but a lot of people know their partner's passcode anyway.

Re:No matter how you try it...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've even witnessed thieves warning about cops coming over there. While people were distracted they stole a backpack.

You look forward to EVERY DAMN THING FAGGOT

[Anonymous Coward]

Predictably boring to the last. Wow you have no life.

Kendall the shameless iphone cheerleader again.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know nothing about security iKendall, sorry

Re:Kendall the shameless iphone cheerleader again.

[SuperKendall]

Well it's good then the topic is privacy and not security... perhaps you should try at least a little to keep up with the discussion at hand before posting?

Re:Kendall the shameless iphone cheerleader again.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know nothing about security iKendall, sorry

Re:Kendall the shameless iphone cheerleader again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Privacy and security are one and the same thing.

LG bricking phones just out of warrantee?

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone else seen LG firmware update failures just past warrantee? I have and am no longer a fan of that company.

How can you "lose access to your devices"

[SuperKendall]

BioMetrics is not a valid identity or security mechanism and will never be.

Literally hundreds of millions of people already use it every day.

you could lose access to your devices if your bio-metrics change.

All mobile devices that support biometrics allow for PIN entry if the biometric will not work.

even worse a lopped off limb could get you locked out of you device.

If you lopped off all my limbs I could still use my nose to enter a PIN.

Not only that but the technology to scan and learn you bio-metrics is the same technology to be used to store that data and use it in a replay.

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Re:How can you "lose access to your devices"

[Anonymous Coward]

BioMetrics is not a valid identity or security mechanism and will never be.

Literally hundreds of millions of people already use it every day.

That does not make the tech valid. It just means that "everybody is doing it", even though a little thought tells you that it's a bad idea. In other words, it just means lots of people are being stupid. What else is new?

If you lopped off all my limbs I could still use my nose to enter a PIN.

Interesting variation on a rubber hose attack. And I'm sure you don't mind me lopping off your limbs, mr. Black Knight, sir.

Re:How can you "lose access to your devices"

[religionofpeas]

Literally hundreds of millions of people already use it every day.

Literally hundreds of millions eat too much junk food, therefore it's good for you.

And with this announcement,

[jenningsthecat]

the developed world is officially fiddling while Earth burns. Really, why do we need all this new gee-whiz shit, other than to one-up each other while we anesthetize ourselves against the failure of the old gee-whiz shit to give our lives meaning and purpose?

Re: And with this announcement,

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, live free or die - or live as a slave to your phone / tech / etc.

Re:And with this announcement,

[Aighearach]

Did you ever wonder why Emperor Nero held a small party for a few close friends as much of the city was burning?

I mean, if history is instructive or not depends on if we understand it, not merely if we refer to it.

You know nothing about security iKendall, sorry

[Anonymous Coward]

You know nothing about security iKendall, sorry

Re:i heard creimer can't use it

[Anonymous Coward]

Creimer gave $71 to Second Harvest Food Bank to stick it to VOX Media and The Verge. #SomethingPositive

Re: i heard creimer can't use it

[Anonymous Coward]

This Creimer dude sounds cool, can you tell me his history here?

Biometrics

[PopeRatzo]

Did you know that when you set up a new Android phone, you can use your dick on the fingerprint reader and then you'll have to whip out your dick every time you want to use your phone?

Don't ask me how I know that, but let me just say that HR was not amused.

Re:Biometrics

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you know that when you set up a new Android phone, you can use your dick on the fingerprint reader and then you'll have to whip out your dick every time you want to use your phone?

Don't ask me how I know that, but let me just say that HR was not amused.

I think maybe I can imagine how you know that. All I can say is ... That's interesting except it's a bit sexist. What if you happen to be a female?

To use the vernacular, would a pussyprint work? What if you're in a situation where you are wearing a dress or otherwise don't want to risk beeing seen fully nude? Can an Android phone perform cameltoe recognition? What's the accuracy rate? Empowered women want to know these things.

Re:Biometrics

[Anonymous Coward]

They were not amused because your organization has ceased the use of a Dictaphone.

Re:Biometrics

[Anonymous Coward]

well, HR shouldn't be asking you to unlock your phone in the first place. if you informed them of your 'fingerprint' and they persisted, threatening with termination if you didn't unlock your phone in front of them, IANAL but i think you may have a valid valid sexual harassment claim.

Re:Biometrics

[Anonymous Coward]

"To use the vernacular, would a pussyprint work?"

Well, you could program it to work, but then anyone with a snail or a slug could break into your device.

Re: Biometrics

[Anonymous Coward]

So do you press the penis dome tip on, so it reads the slit, or do you use the front of the dome (lots of creases, good as a fingerprint), or the back where the frenulum delta is?

Re: Biometrics

[PopeRatzo]

or the back where the frenulum delta is?

Isn't that in Egypt?

Re:i heard creimer can't use it

[Aighearach]

That might not be how veins work. Or masturbation.

Would you be willing to take a moment and explain, for the purpose of education and curiosity, how your species does it?

Why does a cellphone need a locking mechanism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do people put their phones? Mine's in my pocket. I've never used any of the locking options. I don't really know what they're for.

Re:Why does a cellphone need a locking mechanism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do people put their phones? Mine's in my pocket. I've never used any of the locking options. I don't really know what they're for.

The cool thing about locking mechanisms is that if you don't want or need one, you can fucking disable it. There. That was so very fucking hard wasn't it? Now you can find something else to bitch about you fucking crybaby.

If your sperm-donor daddy wasn't so goddamned pussy-whipped he'd have told you the same thing a very long time ago you pathetic entitled millienal participation-trophy sack of shit!

Re:Why does a cellphone need a locking mechanism?

[pezezin]

Not locking your phone is good and all until you have some drinks with some friends that decide to prank on you, using your phone to post bullshit on social media, or reading your conversations, or whatever.

Re:Why does a cellphone need a locking mechanism?

[Anonymous Coward]

On mine they would have to use the browser and know about my online accounts (username, password or whether they exist or not). They can do that from their own phone :). Oh, my SMS are compromised. But I liked typing them on dumbphone more. I don't want to risk walking into a car or a lamppost because I missed a tiny painted key yet again.

WTF? You've got issues... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject: It's all that needs saying about you as you IMPERSONATE me - You've got serious issues.

* Grow up, get over it & your "StRaNgE" obssession you have w/ me, ok & LAY OFF THE DRUGS!

APK

P.S.=> HOWEVER: Even your "paper rose" INFERIOR imitation of me is flattery - imitation IS the SINCEREST form of FLATTERY (& the proof you WISH you were ME, lol)... apk

Not the real APK

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject. APKuck is too afraid of my skills to every come back to /.

ZIP

P.S. => he's been utterly defeated by me(ZIP) and is now only a shell of a man.

Re:Not the real APK

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject. APKuck is too afraid of my skills to every come back to /.

ZIP

P.S. => he's been utterly defeated by me(ZIP) and is now only a shell of a man.

APK was DEFEATED LIKE A PANSY LITTLE BITCH the moment he refused to create an account and then cried like a lil' baby about impersonators. APK sounds like "WAH WAH WAH there is this really super obvious thing I can do but I refuse and now I have this problem that doing this one simple thing would easily prevent, oh won't somebody think I'm important and really somebody yet?? I'm really important and skilled, that's why I am afraid to release source code, honest!"

He's is all talk, a pathetic whiney little bitch who hides behind his multiple IP addresses so he can pretend like he's always right on the internet. He never answers a direct question, preferring to fixate on who he thinks an AC is rather than what is being said, the true actions of a fucking coward afraid to directly take anyone on, lest he be humiliated in public even MORE than his fucking coward actions already do,

Ok A.P.K if you are not a pussy coward bitch, why don't you release source code for your shitty little program? I don't care who secretly reviewed it and said it's "fine and well written", I care about SOURCE. You will either ignore this question or continue to obfuscate, because you are not MAN ENOUGH to show the fucknig source and not even man enough to ADMIT that, you pathetic shrinp-dicked pussy.

Google EFast Chrome

[Anonymous Coward]

You say making an account's something I should do - why? You don't hypocrite STALKING me by UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous.

* See subject: & answer to your last question = why. I won't release my code to have a malicious copy out there & that's that.

(I answer questions so well facts in my answers tend to make you EAT YOUR WORDS & having good manners @ least on your part (lol) you don't TALK while you EAT YOUR WORDS, lmao!)

APK

P.S.=> Now, go Make a Wheel (like I have that 100's of 1,000's worldwide use that works doing more for less vs. ANY single other 'solution', natively) https://isc.sans.edu/forums/di... - until YOU do? You're proving again, to be a hypocrite & BLOWHARD/all talk - no action = YOU... apk

Re:Google EFast Chrome

[Anonymous Coward]

**A "malicious copy" happens only if you lose control of your official repository. Everything else is a fork.

Funny, Linus Torvalds isn't making the Linux kernel closed-source from fear of "malicious copies". Neither is Chromium, Firefox, BIND, OpenBSD, or thousands of other projects. Maybe you should enlighten all of them about the terrible danger they are in?

** Unless of course you admit you can't handle the security of one web site because you just don't have teh skills. After all it could take a little more skill than a text-file manipulation program. Are you admitting this?

So it's time to either put up or shut up, stop dancing around and making lame excuses you fucking psychopath. Why can't you do what every other open source project has successfully done? See I think you are afraid to have your work scrutinized. The only "malice" you fear is the truth of how your work stands on its own merits, you coward. You know that if you publish source it wil be scrutinized by people who really, really know what they're doing. It will reflect on your ability. That's why you're a COWARD worse than any sort of "impersonator" you whine about. You just got defeated the way you pretend to defeat others, you psychotic pesky spamming lying bastard.

It does make it "valid"

[SuperKendall]

That does not make the tech valid.

Since it works, it does indeed make it valid. Perhaps you mean some other word.

even though a little thought tells you that it's a bad idea.

With even more thought you realize it's a very good idea indeed that most people have protection at all, which they generally did not before biometrics made it somewhat tolerable to have a passcode on your phone.

it just means lots of people are being stupid.

No, just a handful of biometric deniers...

Interesting variation on a rubber hose attack.

99.9999999999999% of people will have no security if it takes any work at all to bypass.

Even fewer have anything of true value stored on mobile devices that it really matters in the long run.

Your sense of what works and what is even needing protection is utterly whack.

I'll let you have the last word, because JFC.

How do you "however"?

[Anonymous Coward]

"you can just however your hot blue blood tubes over the handset to quickly unlock"

Hmmm. I must learn to "however".

It happened to Google... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject: It could happen to me. I won't let it. I stop it by not opening my source so it cannot happen period. It works.

APK

P.S.=> My way is truly THE ultimate way & it works... apk

But is your vein data secure

[Anonymous Coward]

Until your phone is legally untouchable by governmental bodies, why would it matter that you've got some super secure biometric system?

A simple pin keeps out 99 percent of plebs and shipping women.

This weird biometric data giveaway is just creepy and unnecessary.

Re:But is your vein data secure

[Anonymous Coward]

A simple pin keeps out 99 percent of plebs and shipping women.

Are you trying to tell us something about your mail-order women? Maybe if they weren't mail-order, they wouldn't be in your phone.

Additionally, on you being a psychopath?

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject: Instead of you STALKING me by UNIDENTIFIABLE anon posts try Make a Wheel as I have https://isc.sans.edu/forums/di... that 200,000++ users worldwide use & DOZENS of /.ers like/use/praise since it gains users more speed/security/reliability & even more anonymity (vs. DNS requestlog tracking + stalling 3rd party tracking scripts FASTER than NoScript & operating beforehand in FASTER/more cpu serviced kernelmode as part of the IP stack itself in hosts vs. "Bolt-on-'MoAr'" ILLOGIC-LOGIC)?

* It's because YOU PROJECT you lack the SKILLS to create anything GOOD that others like/use/praise as I have is why... lol!

(See subject - your FALSE accusation directed @ ME is another projection of your OWN issues onto me also again - you're the one STALKING me by UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous & NOTHING GOOD TO SHOW FOR YOURSELF (but I can easily) you've ever done (which is ZERO)).

APK

P.S.=> You should just admit that your province in life is to be a BLOWHARD "ne'er-do-well" CHATTERING TWAT (lol) online STALKING others by UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous as you do me - some "accomplishment" for you, lol (not)... apk

Re: Straight from APK's Black Heart! TRUTH!

[Anonymous Coward]

It needs to be stored on the moon of earth to preserve it.

Effing Great

[PortHaven]

Where as before, all I had to do was worry about the NSA chopping off a single finger. Now, I have to fear my entire hand being severed in order to unlock my phone and read all my secrets (which are already known by Facebook).

***

All that said, I absolutely love my LG V20. Best cell phone I have ever owned: USB Type-C, Removable Battery, Slick thin metal case, microSD card, and the least problems of ANY smartphone I've owned (much less problems than either my iPhone or Samsung Galaxy's).

Biometric hallenge

[manu0601]

I got used to see the Chaos Computer Club breaking biometric authentication; I wonder if they will break that one as well.

Do people buy LG Phones?

[ramlaljhon]

I am wandering... Do people buy LG Phones?