Slashdot Mirror
Be:Niche or Competitor?
Aaron Tunnell writes
"Once again Microsoft has used Be and BeOS as a answer
for the governments continued attack on the software giant,
Be has had enough and in a public statement
reaffirmed that
it is not marketing nor does it strive to be a Microsoft
replacement, but a niche market product for digital media
creation. It also said that it would like Microsoft to
stop its continued references to Be as a rival to the OS
giant. Read more link "
Be has been working on a version of Quake/Quake2
for BeOS for quite some time now. Rumors fly about
it's status. Some people say it is done waiting on
id Software. Some people say id Software is waiting on Be. I think they are waiting for hardware OpenGL support in BeOS before the release.
Maxis has already said they will release a version
of SimCity 3000 for BeOS in the next few months.
People are working on getting Golgotha running on
BeOS.
BeOS Release 5 should have support for hardware
OpenGL acceleration (maybe even in R4.1), and
since most game companies are writing their games
for OpenGL to some degree, porting games to BeOS
shouldn't be too hard. Esp. for companies like id
Software that strive to keep their code XP.
-thomas
I think RedHat has taken a stance similar /. article.
to that. See previous
I fully agree, d00d. MSoft has juiced us. I'm sure they're glad we exist.. It's all BS! Linus should make a statement because he's been in the news a bit.
Nasty news site (msnbc not slashdot). Adverts and links all over the place. The floating flicker to the right was especially annoying. Do these people bother to visit the site they work on?
I have no problem with a browser coming with my OS as the manufacturer doesn't outright lie and say that disabling it will slow my computer down and they don't actively try to make the competitor's product not work on their OS.
I think the browser bundling stuff is a load of crap but MS is like Bill Clinton. They both did something wrong but neither will admit it and they keep trying to drag it on as long as possible rather than admit they did something wrong.
Well, I went out and purchased a dual-processor machine two weeks ago, currently it only has NT, and BeOS installed, eventually Linux...
However, I got all the bells and whistles, video capture/video out, 3d/2d accel, DVD decoder, nice audio, etc...
Mind you not all hardware is supported under Be yet (SB Live, DVD decoder)...
But yesterday I wanted to do some comparison, so I loaded BeOS, loaded a 3d spinning cube with movies playing on each face, a tv tuner, a Quicktime movie playing in a loop, a GLTeapot, and Abuse... Abuse was playable, no slowdowns whatsoever... In fact the whole system was fully responsive, I could control the GLTeapot, or the 3d spinning cube with no slowdown... copy files in the background, with no system halts...
Under NT I loaded a sample OpenGL demo (flyby from SGI), (NT is actually using the OpenGL features of my 3d card, Be was not at this time) and attempted to open the TV tuner application....the system locked completely....
the system also locks quite often under NT if I attempt to use the DVD decoder...
BeOS does seem to handle multimedia better...
ttyl
Jason
Amen Brother
We've been working on building a very primative OS in my operating systems class. Please don't let this get out, I don't won't to be used as a tool by the MS lawyers.
Hold on a sec, maybe Bill will want to buy us out instead? Great, I might be able to pay off my student loans! Spread the word everyone.
You crash no more than Linux and doing considerably more work. I guess that's about the best explanation I might provide to the other party's comment. I have used BeOS, NT, Linux, Solaris, OS/400, and MVS. There is nothing like MVS or OS/400 on the PC platform. Closest to it would be Solaris. But, relative to other PC type OSes, BeOS R4 is very stable. It's a bit more so than NT and about the same as Linux. If I had to pick one or the other, I would probably pick BeOS for the simple fact that it can remain stable while pressing the hardware to points that Linux cannot do yet (say, for example, pegging the CPUs on a quad processor box and still remain responsive and reliable).
What would be better is to just push Linux, *BSD, BeOS, etc. into the market to compete. That way, we can avoid the government intervention.
Exactly. The trial really is a bunch of garbage. They won't do anything to Microsoft, and even if they do (like break it up) it will only benefit them. The best way to attack Microsoft is by competing in the marketplace. Linux and BeOS are far better than Winblows. If things are done right, they will win.
Especially since Be is being so sincere about this--they really *aren't* trying to attack Microsoft. They've said that for a long time.
The main reason for lack of apps is the not-released-yet status of the OS. As for the other stuff, I agree with you. What I worry about is that Be will be killed somehow and the product will die with no hope of salvage. My dream is that if Be goes down, they'll open source their product and we can incorporate their GUI into Linux. That would rock!
I never thought that I might have to look at strings of text together to gain information. I just ordered the CD from the website by clicking on lots of pictures and having my grandmother fill out my order information (note from grandmother: I'm typing this).
You mean there are instructions there? Hmmm. I'll get grammaw to read 'em fer me. Thenk u fer yer imput.
Bucky
Be has been around since the early 1990s, around 1992 I think. They started making an effort to get publicity around 1995, when they happened to come through the University of Waterloo giving us demos.
Being open source would not help the lack of hardware support. The reality of the situation is that the developers and evangelists at Be will help you out all they can to get modern hardware working on the OS. They are actively recruiting people to do contract work on media applications and media hardware (like me). Most of the APIs that could be considered "done" are published on the web site.
And when your driver ships and is proven, they'll likely try to buy it from you and ship it in the OS or, if you don't suck, hire you. It's a great place to work.
The developer community has quite a bit of vigour for its size. You should hear the PPC owners squeal about the dying support for their systems.
As to the "is it a replacement", let's be real, don't think for a moment that Be wouldn't mind if people could word process, send mail, browse the web, and all the other day-to-day things we use our computers for, and as a matter of preference used their OS to do these things. I almost do. In the Be boot loader on my system, I call the Windows 98 partition "Quake", since that's the only thing I run there (oh, and home banking software).
The Media OS moniker is a recent label they've applied to the OS, not a bad choice at all as far as target markets go, considering all the investment that digital media hardware companies are making (i.e. anything around firewire, USB digital cameras, cheap good home video editing).
Linux has great politics, but the BeOS has a way better user experience and is a fun ride to be on.
To call Gassee's musings in the weekly newsletter official, fully-thought-out Be statements complete with letterhead and the lawyers signed on would be a bit of stretch. If you've ever met him, you'd know why.
I have a box that has run Solaris, NT, Linux and BeOS. Right now, they all load and run just fine. Not too long ago BeOS would not have run and Linux crashed on it. This is as quality of a PC as money can buy. I built it myself (the case alone cost $500) using all main-stream name-brand components hand-picked for their quality and performance. The point is this... no OS will load on ever system for every user. BeOS has proved itself very reliable and capable on those system that does support it. Did you check you RAM and disk subsystems for health and qaulity? It could be something very subtle with your system that causes it to deviate from being well-supported to being crash prone. Did you try different BIOSes on all components? It might be worth a try. BeOS is very young and thus has a very poor showing in h/w s/w support. It is an excellent OS though and the same problems accompanied OSes like NT and Linux when they were younger. Be will be much more impressive on the desktop when it grows up than either of these other two.
I was so confused as to why slashdot was announcing an article which was 2 sentences long.
Then I thought, aha, msnbc! Use netscape, not lynx. Well, with images turned off in netscape I saw the same two sentence paragraph.
I just can't beleive that authors use an image, let alone an image without an alt tag, for "click here for the complete story."
Am I wrong about this?
Am I just "behind the times,"
not "with it,"
using software that's "too crappy."
Am I simply "a fat anachronism,"
Should I just 'get over it'
and 'use a browser with graphics?'
Well, it appears Be has fallen right into Microsoft's trap.
The issue at stake is whether MS has improperly exploited a monopoly. It is in MS's best interest (obviously) to confuse this issue. Instead of answering the question "Have you exploited a monopoly?" or even the semi-related question "Are you a monopoly?", MS is answering the question "Do you have competitors?".
Monopolies are rarely literally limited to one company. A de facto monopoly could exist with one company having as little has 60% market share.
By trying to place themselves as non-competitors, BeOS has assisted MS in promulgating the idea that this is the correct question to answer.
Consider, if you will, the effect BeOS's press release (and the stories about it) will have on Joe User: "Operating System Company Says It Is Insignificant Compared To Microsoft" "MS Competitor Says `We're a niche!`"
Joe User says to himself "There's someone besides MS that makes operating systems? Hmmm, MS must not have a monopoly. Drop the case!"
This is exactly what MS wants Joe User to think and say.
Instead of playing Microsoft's game by issuing denials of their irrelevant comments, the alternative OS community should change the subject back to the relevant issue of exploitation at best or remain silent at worst.
Looks more like 5 comments posted to me :) Slashdot just rounding to the nearest hundred comments lately, or is some kind of conspiracy.
The page also will not show correctly with the BeOS browser NetPositive. Kinda impossible to read if there are no words on the page. Also, take a look at the source. If I could get paid to write source that bad I would be rich.
Windows... the people unfriendly OS. Especially when it corrupts itself every six weeks, and won't even boot up.
Posted from BeOS R4
The IBM anti-trust trial was specifically regarding a certain mini-computer segment, and the very different way they were marketed back in the 60s. It's easy to blame the government for IBM's failures in the PC market and for their general culture of complacency in the 1980s, but that argument doesn't really hold up.
Likewise with the Microsoft trial. It focuses specifically on the client computer market and Windows 3.1/95/98. Absent a total breakup (which could be ten years away due to all the appeals, etc.), MS could still pull all kinds of predatory marketing in the server market, where they don't have a monopoly, but do have lots of clout with Compaq, HP, Dell, etc.
Can you honestly say that one freeze or re-boot every couple months or so is a big problem for non-server computers? Certainly, no crashes is better than rare crashes, but whether a desktop has to be restarted 0 or 5 or 10 times a year seems like quibbling over trivia.
I only meant to say that server applications are the one area where having months of continuous uptime really makes a noticeable difference. Even if BeOS WERE more stable than Linux, it would hardly make any difference for Be's intended use, since Linux is already extremely stable.
I never suggested that it is OK for computers to crash several times a day (as with Windows).
Consider the following:
A kernel (basics) is fairly simple. True. But what more?
An efficient hardware independent driver model,
a low level threadsafe messaging API,
a realtime OS style server-based service model,
the first pure C++ API on a desktop OS,
producer/consumer media handling
And NOT to forget:
A quality client/server GUI
This is neither easy to write nor available in shrink wrapped GPLed code packages written by others.
Boy, you're so way off your tracks. Just go back to sleep or write your simple kernel.
Think first, speak later.
If you had been following the company for the past few years, you wouldn't be implying that it was started up with money given to Apple by MS. There is NO CONNECTION between the three companies. True, there are former Apple employees working at Be, but there are also former Intel employees, former Metrowerks people, and so on.
Be started up in 1990 (or sooner), with the BeOS running on the AT&T Hobbit processor -- they've only become more well-known now (after the release of the x86 version of the BeOS), but they've been around for quite a while.
Dude - Be's been around for about 9 years. I don't consider this being "sprung on the scene recently". The only reason why you're seeing more info on the BeOS as of late is because of the recent switch to running on x86 processors.
or junkbusters
What is competition from an antitrust viewpoint? A competitor is someone who can profitably compete in your business, playing by the rules of Capitalism. Capitalism means you pay your workers and realize a profit off what they produce. Since the bulk of Linux work is volunteer, Linux does not qualify, regardless of the fact that it will make Windows a legacy system within five years. If MS's primary competitor is a non-commercial product, this is itself evidence that Capitalist competition, the type DOJ is concerned with, is unviable.
A mean time between failures of two months is piss-poor for linux, and undreamt-of for win95. For me, it's not so bad, because I turn my computer off at night (loud cooling fan, small apartment), and I really don't care if my computer would have crashed had I left it running for another month or so. You seem to be assuming that stability is boolean: Either it's stable, or it's not. Well, that's not the case. It's a continuum. Windows 95 is unstable enough to piss me off by crashing before I turn it off myself; it sounds like BeOS can do better (I ordered my copy of R4 this morning). I'm not gonna use BeOS for a server. Servers require a lot more availability or whatever the trade press calls it.
The fact is, the post you responded to was saying just what I am: It's unacceptable for a computer to crash before you turn it off. For a server, that can mean years. For my desktop, it means maybe 24 hours, tops. For your desktop, it may mean weeks, months, or even years -- hey, cool! If you've chosen Linux, it was a good choice.
As far as I know, the "investment" (trivial at that) MS gave to Apple was to settle a lawsuit (for some reason, my memory of this has completly evaporated). I think the reason Apple allowed it to be seen as an act of good will was because they were desperate for MS Office which was/is a very important application on Mac OS. I think part of the deal was also for them (Apple) to promote IE over Netscape.
This misinforrmation is just getting so annoying. Even if they did bail out Apple (which they didn't) it isn't even logical that $150 million has paid for everything Apple has been doing recently on top of their normal progression.
The reason for the superbowl thing was not because Apple had $5 to it's name, it was because of the 1985 Lemmings Superbowl fiasco. Apple was scared to return. They were about to pull the HAL commercial at the last minute, but they got enough for requests for it to be shown, so they decided to go ahead and go for it.
What if the crash happens while writing, say, a last-minute final term project.
Well, there could also be a power outage, the glue-sniffing kid downstairs with the Hiwatt may blow a fuse, or the program that you're editing the file with could crash, too. Not to mention hardware problems.
Shit happens. Save your work. The most stable OS that can be imagined still won't run if the hardware is broken, or has no electricity. Personally, I don't have some elephantine UPS at home. It's a lot easier on my budget to hit ESC : w from time to time.
Absolutely nothing can always, 100% of the time protect you from your own absentmindedness.
I believe the story is thus: Be began with a proprietary hardware platform called the "BeBox" originally on ATT's Hobbit architecture. They then moved to PowerPC. When Gil Amelio killed Copland (what was to be the next MacOS), they were in the running to be the next Mac OS, but were beat out by Jobs and Next. Personally, I liked Be better, but bringing back Jobs has clearly helped Apple. Now Be and Apple are estranged, Intel has invested in Be, and, although it currently runs on both, the future of Be appears to be Intel.
My understanding is there are more old Amiga than old Apple people at Be. Gasse has implied that the Amiga was a better computer back when he was at Apple. Some people call Be the Amiga of the 90's.
Someone get this guy a sedative. /. is a forum for irrational, profane flaming.
I'd hate for people to get the idea that
I like Be, but wonder if a niche OS is viable on standard hardware. Let's say Be captures the perhaps 5% of the market that consists of serious multi-media creators (it's probably less). That's a much smaller revenue stream than MS.If MS wanted to kill them, it would seem likely to do it by brute force, that's mostly how they killed everyone else. MS cheerily lost about $100 milion a year killing Netscape, er, improving Explorer. Does anyone think a niche OS on Intel is viable?
Well, BeOS has a journaling file system so it does have an advantage over linux in that regard
You should see that press release on www.be.com All the big audio names are coming to BeOS inclusing Arboretum, Steinberg, Emagic, Cycling 74, and Echo Audio just to name a few
Point 3: What do you think Steve Jobs is doing
right now in Apple with Rhapsody and its Enterprise Objects and/or WebObjects thingy?
Point 2: architecture for multiuser is there. Permissions? forget the 60s we are in the 90, so com to BeOS have a taste of unix permisions plus attributes!!!. Plus the best multithreading/multitasking/SMP ever.
And yes, we don't reboot, so?
Hahah. Space Travel is a solved problem, and AIDS is still a disease created by God to kill gays. If this was true, Be wouldn't exist. Lets see, we've not progressed anywhere in File Systems in the last 30 years. BSD's FFS is the best thing since bread. Who needs threads when you've got fork()? Lets just waste Memory. Problem solved. To my knowledge, there is no x86 OS that supports over 80% of the hardware in use for the machines other than windows. Oh Wait! That problems been solved. Drivers could never crash an operating system. Mismatches in hardware could never crash an OS. Yeah, I'd say thi problem is solved. Oh yeah, and what about exokernels? I guess they don't really exist. Its pretty easy to write one of those. You did it in Java back in 1960 I presume?
/dev/wavemixer and have it open /dev/dsp and mix everything written to it in real time writing to wavemixer, then we can also have programs read from /dev/wavemixer to get graphs and such in real time." Sure, Lets hack a fucking kernel even more. Lets not rewrite something to work a little better, lets just hack something that exists. Permissions? They're there. R5 after its gone hardcore mainstream.
> Point2: BeOS sucks
If only BSD was cool and up to date. Not even the surviving versions are decent enough. NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD... Their file systems blow. They don't have ABSOLUTELY NO streaming media capabilities. "Why do we need it? We can just create
> Point 3: Gassee's a dork
Oh yeah, and Steve Jobs is an absolute genius. Apple
is doing so well with their 3% market share. Oh wait,
we got a few people to buy these graphical terminals, so lets add some colors. Im sure people will buy them. Atleast we've got Microsoft developing for us, another good reason to buy a Mac and just a Mac.
>Point 4: Fanatics
"Don't get me started"
You can't even find the path to start...
It could prob be done now with a bit of hacking to the system...i'll have to see when my copy of r4 comes in the mail
People still say this about OS/2. If you like the UI,
please embrace the OS.
Ben.
hi,
There was a recent interview with Red Hats Bob Young (I think)...
In it he stated that he thought it would take "decades" for linux to gain desktop market share because of Microsofts dominant position...
That is a similar thing to what the Be ppl are saying.
Of course, we all know that linux is ready to take over the desktop this year.. So actually I don't mind MS using linux as fair competition, because of course we are..
Wayne Sch.
Exactly. How can you defend the indefencible ?
Microsoft has been a bully in the marketplace and despite the great ideals of capitalism it has not HELPED consumers as much as it has HINDERED the development of computer OS's.
It's paying for it now and I hope it serves as a lesson to future Microsoft-ites as altho it might feel good to be a bully, they will always fall hard.
--
Derek Piper
Could it also be that intelligent commentary can stand alone and not necessarily need commentary to prop it up or discredit it? Just a thought.
Nor profitable, near as I can tell. I know Sun was for a while giving away, er, I mean offering it as a competitive upgrade from Linux (tar up a Linux and send it to them, install Solaris, go to Debian or wherever and download Linux. Totally legit.)
Though they don't do it, MS could easily undersell any commercial OS. Most of the cost of the OS is R&D (especially for MS given their tech support). This cost is constant regardless of how many units you sell; therefore, if you double your units, you half your per-unit dev cost (this is what worries me about Be's strategy). MS is walking into this fight with the ability to sell 10 times the desktop OS's of anyone else.
Better: let the government define a standard of stability supported by testing that OS's must meet, regardless of cost, to qualify for government purchase. This would be fair in principle and thus would put MS at a considerable disadvantage in fact.
It's perfectly possible to have a Linux system with no shells. Have it boot to X directly with xdm (or kdm if you're like me). Then run a variety of applications without ever using a shell. Obviously you won't be able to run shell scripts, but most of them can be replaced with C programs doing numerous system() calls :). But it is certainly possible. The system won't be running seven times slower when it tries to connect to the Internet, as MS alleged in their now infamous video.
If you were implying that unix has a good security model, you have got to be joking. The unix file permission system are a joke. Owner, group, world... how flexible... NOT!
Unix programming is fraught with security problems... look at all the holes that are discovered in Unix systems. Hole discovered... patch hole... hole discovered... patch hole... hole discovered... patch hole... hole discovered...
BeOS is not currently multi-user, but it will be. And it won't be a Microsloth-style kludge.
I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again:
What the heck was Gassee (which is a name that invites insults) doing while he was at Apple? Sitting on his hands?
I don't know about being a viable competitor to Windows, but if BeOS is half as fast and media-friendly as people say it is, it would make one sweet game machine. I mean, what else is a single user OS good for? It's all most of us use Windows for anyway. Anyone experienced with BeOS in this regard have comments?
l
I can't believe that anyone hearing Microsoft's testimony is going to buy this or half of the other crap they come up with. I'm glad Be is standing up and telling it how it is.
Off topic...is there a way to edit may account? If I could I'd use it again. Maybe I should just make a new one.
Robert Dowden wishing he wasn't an AC
We in the Linux community need to make a similar statement, and have Microsoft stop taking advantage of us in their trial. The question is who should make the statement? Distributions like RedHat and SuSe? Individuals like Linus, Alan Cox, Maddog? Maybe in editorials at places like Linux World? What do you think?
Be is a threat to MS as much as a very smart and capable ant would be a threat to a slow, ponderous elephant.
In a sense, MS is right, as the technology of BeOS would annihilate Windows if all other factors were equal (public visibility, cooperation from hardware vendors, availability of applications, etc.)
However, at this time MS is just using Be as part of a lame "Windows isn't a monopoly" excuse.
Oh, I feel soooo sorrrrry for MS - their "nice, friendly OS" is in such grave danger of being eliminated by a BIG, BAD competitor (never mind that Be only has 80 employees).
M$ is the epitome of sleaze. I'm sure their company includes plenty of smart, nice people, but many of their business practices are unconscionable. I hope the DOJ nails 'em to the wall.
I succumbed to the Be teasers on the Be website and ordered the 3.2 demo CD. It will not boot on 3 Intel machines I've tried so far. Linux boots. NT boots. DOS boots. Be no boot. I had extremely high hopes for BeOS - it looks tres cool. Mickey's junk at least boots.
I spent 4 hours this weekend trying to hunt down a retail copy of R4, but no one has it.
BeOS a contender? Not even remotely.
Regards,
Anonymous "Bucky" Coward, III
Point 1: Operating systems are a solved problem. They've been solved for decades. Kernels, even stable ones, aren't hard to write. The two reasons that microsoft and apple can't write stable OS's is a) they're staffed by mongol hordes of 22 year old C weenies, and b) system stability would ruin their ability to undermine performance of competitors products(ie, leverage the op. system for application market gain....). You get a freebie reason in that reason 'a)' prevents them from doing complete rewrites.
Point 2: BeOS sucks.
"Oh look, it doesn't crash! Those guys at BeOS are so cool!!!" Yeah, and it's a single user only system. "But it's only meant to be a single user system!!" Fine, cut yourself at the knees; take away choice. Forget about a clean permissions system to allow your buddy at the office to use your machine. And your kid. And any network user. In a rapidly networking world. Yup, BeOS is just cool enough to implement an early 1960's OS design. For fuck's sake, they could just license the BSD source and write their own graphics libs -- but you can't do that when you're the old school, closed-source mindset("must own everything... must own everything...").
Point 3: Gassee's a dork
He was one the chosen few allowed to play around with Apple in it's dying days. The CEO, Scully, was like, "hey, I don't know anything about this business. want the reins for 6 months?" Gassee made the brilliant business decision of telling Apple to ignore the home market, to focus the business market. This was a _*bad*_ idea; check the context.
Point 4: Fanatics.
Don't get me started.
I think it would be silly for the government to try to regulate any software maker. Unfortunately, Microsoft may have a point there. However I think there still may be a solution to the problem.
What if the government required all OEMs which sold over a particular number, say $10 million in sales, of computers each year to carry at least two operating systems, available to consumers at the same price. The OEMs could choose whatever OSs they want, as long as they come from different vendors. For example, Windows95, WindowsNT, and Red Hat Linux (or Be, DrDOS, whatever).
Of course, that won't solve it there, but since Microsoft hasn't changed it's prices for a *long* time, the government can force Microsoft (and all vendors for that matter) to charge a certain amount. Just like Airline regulation in the 70s! No seriously, obviously Microsoft isn't forcing down prices so why don't we just make them not force prices down?
Obviously it needs work, but what do y'all think?
It's nice to see someone calling a browser an app and saying removing it does nothing more than removing the ability to read HTML. Too bad others aren't so honest in both development and in rhetoric.
I mean, what? Microsfot will ship an IE-less Windows 98/Win2k? That doesn't hurt them, Netscape is already dead(err..bought by AOL..same thing). I just don't see what could really happen that would make Microsoft a "loser" in this trial.
If Microsoft loses, there will be no "punishment" -- Microsoft is not a person, so the action, government will take, is not predefined by any law, it can be anything that fixes the damage, and damage is enormous, it can be evaluated as more than Microsoft, Gates, or whatever else can pay in any form. The goal is the elimination of Microsoft's current position on the market because there is no reasonable way to fix situation while keeping Microsoft continuing this practice, and it will make no point for government to do anything less than that.
However if it will be done, Microsoft will be unable to compete at all -- it will either die (what will be well deserved), or become completely different, and definitely not as powerful kind of company (what will be enough to bring enough sanity back into the situation to let others fix things).
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Posted by greedy:
I'm sorry, Be is a real competitor? Isn't that a little like the local electric company calling the
guy with the bike generator real competition? I don't think Be qualifies as a real competitor. They do make a real nifty OS, but if microsoft is going to highlight them on center stage, then they should also add the little asterix that indicates market share. From that perspective Be isn't even a blip on the horizon compared to microsoft. As far as competitors are concerned I doubt Microsoft even knew they existed before they desperately needed to find some evidence that they did have competition to support their "we are not a monopoly" case.
Guess that means I weigh in on the real cynical side of this equation. If Be was truly a competitor, Microsoft would already have invested a boatload of money in them to help keep them alive (SEE APPLE). And those cute blue boxes that used to pepper the original Be site would at least be recognized by the non high-geek population.
Posted by WebGuy:
Tell 'em...
--
Chris Stoffel
Webmaster - Positively Pixar
Posted by Assmodeus:
hell microsoft wants a computer in every bedroom and shower stall, not just every desk... but screw microsoft. im glad Be is telling it how it is.
Posted by OGL:
Funny, I'm running UltraHLE in Linux as I write this, with perfect sound and visual quality.
Ah, the wonders of WINE.
-W.W.
As far as the browser, we definately need to do that. It's quite obvious that browsers are NOT integrated into Linux.
OTOH, we do aim to be a MS competitor in every way possible, with servers being our current forte. But it says a lot that one of the only viable all-around competitors to Windows is completely free and is the labor of love of thousands of programmars who are rarely compensated in a direct monetary fashion for their work.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Note your use of shell(s) - plural.
Already, this proves that shells are not integrated into the OS. True, in almost all cases they are a necessary application, but it's not saying that bash and not tcsh is THE only shell you can use with Linux and work.
Microsoft is saying that their OS won't work without IE. They're not saying it's useless w/o a browser, they're saying IE. Plus, you should be able to remove your browser if you don't care about reading HTML. MS says you cannot do this with IE because it's integrated.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
That comparison might make sense if the issue were merely about bundling their browser with their system software. Unfortunately, the issue is about integrating it with their system software: they claim that they can't un-bundle without breaking their OS. There is no such similarity in the linux world, where the lines between kernel, application, and shared-library are all clearly defined. Maybe if you thought about it some more you might be able to come up with a fair analogy, but the one with respect to shells doesn't cut the mustard.
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Creating ficticious competitors, creating videos of ficticious events (at least as far as the official description & commentary were concerned), creating ficticious grass-roots support...
Microsoft is digging itself a HUGE hole, and one of these days, it's going to fall in. IMHO, that kind of fall would be undeserved, but entirely self-inflicted.
*SIGH*
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It's not so much a fair market as it is an educated market. As long as the market consists primarily of idiots, then whoever can market the best will win.
scottwimer
-- Beer. It's what's for breakfast.
Be wants to sell an operating system that will be the premier OS for one niche of the computing public. Microsoft wants a computer on every desk, and a Microsoft OS on every computer. These are not compatible goals...
Of course, the judge would do well to keep in mind that "victory" for Be constitutes grabbing and holding that 5% market niche, not dethroning MS.
I'll avoid the temptation to reply to your little flame bait, and respond to only point 2. BeOS has support within its filesystem, and hooks in other parts of its OS to support bein a mult-user system. It is quite possible, in fact I'd venture to say probable, that they will add support for this in the future. However, since their goal is to be a media OS, the implementation of SMP, threading, (both already done years ago) and support for a lot more hardware (being done, but still needs work) is obviously a higher priority than adding multiuser support.
> You dildo. "Graphical terminals?" Brilliant. How long did it take you to think THAT one up?
You fuckstain. It figures you would ignore all the content and skip to the iMac slam. Don't call Apple's current situation a Comeback in any way/shape/form. Very few people, including their stockholders, believe that their little sliver of marketshare will last at all..
Of course the Mac devotees are going to say "People have said that Apple has been going out of business for 10 years.."
My point isn't the GUI... when I say interface I mean at the coding level. The source code is a joy to read, and the object model is well-designed.
If we had the Be object tree on Linux, it would be something I'd be interested in developing for.
R4 is a great improvement over R3.2, and as an R3.2 owner, you can get an upgrade for less than $30.
However, we are the first to admit that not everyone will have a smooth experience with BeOS. This is why we offer a no-questions-asked money-back guarantee. If you don't like BeOS for any reason, return it, and we'll give you your money back. (We won't even make you play legal games with the license.) Whether our product addresses our customer's needs or not, we want them in any case to get a fair deal.
Schwab
(not really speaking for Be)
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
All one needs these days in a game machine is an emulator. The N64 emulator on Windows is SICK!!! The connectix playstation emulator on Mac should reinvigorate that platform... if Linux had a good Playstation and N64 emulator the problem of games on linux would be solved...
1. Replaced their per CPU licenses with per model licenses.
2. Intentionally polluted Java in an attempt to lock developers to the Win32 environment.
3. Forced OEMs to bundle IE with Windows 95, which clearly did not require IE.
4. Prior to #3, MS explicitly told Netscape that if they didn't play ball, MS would crush Netscape.
The list goes on, but I it seems clear to me that MS illegally exploits their monopoly position.
I don't think the major issue in the DOJ case is that MS "gave away" the browser. The issue is that MS forced OEMs to use IE as the primary browser on the desktop (especially for Windows 95 OSR2). Microsoft's assertion that IE is part of the OS is absurd, IE is an application that is used by the desktop and other MS applications. It would be fine to say that in order for the MS desktop to work, you need these IE DLLs, but that's not what MS did. They said "if you don't configure windows to use IE as the default browser, you can't ship Windows." Compaq, Dell, etc., should be allowed to ship Netscape as the primary browser if they choose.
I need Gtk+ to run Gnome, that does not make Gimp "part of the OS." I hope MS is found guilty of exploiting their position and I hope the US government stays out of the OS design business...
--
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We've already seen the Be press release on /.
However... Many people have long thought that ZD was in Bill Gates' hip pocket. This article would tend to corroborate that. ZD hack. On MSNBC. Mmm hmm.
And did you get a load of the first sentence?
Oh, I don't think so. "A little attention" means that Bill is toying with "embrace, extend, extinguish".
Nonono, ship it without a TCP/IP stack. Mean ol Linux putting everyone out of business giving tcp/ip stacks away.
Maybe the government should stop chasing this goddam RED HERRING and concentrate on the OEM lockins, vaporware strikes, and strategic buyouts and STOP TELLING ANYONE HOW TO BUILD THE GODDAM OS.
But of course as long as they're after The Enemy, the government is The Good Guy. What simpletons.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
> What if the government required all OEMs
Stop right there. The OEMs are not on trial here. The day Linux is put under a mandatory quota to "help it out" is the day I club the penguin over the head and toss his sorry fdisked carcass off my drive forever.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
The honest answer is that from from a technical standpoint, Be is a competitor for Microsoft. While you can state that they cater specifically to the media crowd, that seems a bit like saying that Apple in 1984 catered to the GUI crowd. Be is simply ahead of the times - they occupy a space Microsoft will certainly move their consumer OS (not in terms of media authoring, but in terms of the ability to use more media in apps like games, which is a market that Microsoft covets).
The cynical answer is that Be is nothing more than a catalyst to get the OS market to mature. With nonexistant market share, and press and brainshare moving towards linux, its nearly impossible for them to get much attention these days.
> Extreme stability with uptimes of months is important for servers but not for desktops
May I politely say, bull****. That desktop computers don't need to be reliable and fail to crash is the biggest computing lie ever inflicted on the public. There is no reason that ANY computer should spontaniously crash, shy of electrical failure or component malfunction.
Be sounds like a cool venture, and the OS is certainly cheap enough. I'd love to support it, but I don't quite see where it fits in the OS ecology.
Won't MacOS X/Rhapsody eat it for lunch? Thanks to Carbon, Apple should have a strong, stable "Media OS" with an excellent track record and tons of applications.
BeOS sounds like a great system, but I don't see how it can beat the one-two punch of MacOS X (for the Media People) and Linux (for the geeks).
D
It's kind of too bad, really... the PowerPC architecure is so sweet, and the x86 is so... old. I didn't realize the full extent of this until I had to study them for a CS class last semester.
I would *LOVE* to see the BeOS running on G3's! I was never a big PowerPC fan because the only OS that really ran on them was the bloated MacOS, which I would Insanely Hate to use that much. (I know, don't start pestering me about Linux...)
So, due to Apple's fear of competition, I doubt that BeOS/PPC has much of a future. This irks me beyond belief. The BeOS is really really cool... why does Be's future have to be on an architecture that so clearly belongs in the past?
- Slarty
Hi... I'm Larry... the shivering chipmunk... brrrrr!... I'm cold... I need a sweater...
Yup... seems extremely stable to me. I've had it freeze a couple of times doing certain activities, but I think this is a hardware problem... it does exactly the same thing under Windows, Linux, and DOS (the last time I used it.) Not something I worry about, as I can't afford to replace my video card (the likely culprit) and it doesn't happen too often. Especially not under Be or Linux. (gee, wonder why...)
:-)
Other than that, it's rock solid. I can crash NetPositive reliably by opening up the admin stats page on Legions and resizing it... that page has LOTS of tables. But it never takes the OS down.
I do lots of BeOS dev work, and my programs have had their share of nasty crashes... I think that I can claim to have stress tested it more than the average user.
- Slarty
Hi... I'm Larry... the shivering chipmunk... brrrrr!... I'm cold... I need a sweater...
I'm mean, it's nice and all that Microsoft is finally getting thier schlongs rubbed in the mud by everyone. But does it matter?
I mean, Windows in STILL going to be on 9 out of 10 desktops, it's STILL going to be a monopoly. So take out the bad press(and any press is good press) and it's a win-win situation for Microsoft.
I mean, what? Microsfot will ship an IE-less Windows 98/Win2k? That doesn't hurt them, Netscape is already dead(err..bought by AOL..same thing). I just don't see what could really happen that would make Microsoft a "loser" in this trial.
And for everyone that says they will open-source Windows, it's not going to happen.
Under normal use, BeOS won't destabilize. Applications also have a very hard time taking down the entire OS, unlike Windows.
However, if you start calling drivers directly, you can wedge the system fairly easily by tying up semaphores. A fork bomb also works quite well. I'm told that memory protection leaves a bit to be desired too, though it certainly seems more stable than Windows in that regard (it survives segmentation faults).
Bear in mind that BeOS is still an OS in development. All of the "R#" releases are preludes to version 1.0. That having been said, however, I doubt that it will ever have quite as much bulletproofing as a good Unix variant, because it's intended for the single user/home user market (as opposed to servers).
I personally think that it looks neat, has a nice interface, is easy to write applications for, and is reasonably efficient. SMP was also handled quite well on the machines that I've tested it with (negligeable overhead, unlike Windows). Unix is still my environment of choice for stability, but I think that BeOS would be a wonderful replacement for Windows for the average home user, once the 3D drivers are finished and there are more 3rd-party applications available (there are still several now).
Anything that has source available could be ported fairly easily, as the BeOS graphics API is reasonably nice and quite easy to use. There's even software OpenGL if you want it.
I doubt that Be will be doing ports itself, as they are all quite busy developing the OS, and this is a relatively low-priority item. However, they seem to actively embrace third-party software for their system (check the BeWare pages on their web site), so any game ports should be welcome.
Hardware OpenGL support would make porting 3D games extremely easy. R5 is probably a good estimate for the timeline for this, as someone already posted.
Re. open source for development, from what I've seen Be is actively embracing third-party developers, for applications, at least. Check out the BeWare pages on their site for a list of third-party applications. The API is quite easy to write for, is reasonably clean, and isn't hidden (heck, all of the headers are in
IMO, forcing the OS itself to be open source would just remove the ability of BeOS to develop it, as they'd have trouble finding investors if the product isn't going to produce revenue.
Re. driver development, that's being worked on by both internal and external developers. Development could be faster, but it's adequate IMO.
Re. being a contender in the desktop market, I think that BeOS most certainly is. The interface is nice-looking and easy to use. There aren't any obvious drains on processing performance that I can find. The API is reasonably clean and is easy to write for. All you need is 3D accelleration, and you have the perfect platform for Joe Average User. Hardware accellerated 3D will probably be out for R5.x, IMO. You can already call a software OpenGL library as it stands.
I agree that Be is probably being wise in not calling this a competitor to Windows, but IMO it's still a very good one (though hard-core programmers will still prefer Linux).
So, I'd rather that the Linux community leave perjury to Microsoft
Right now BeOS is most certainly a single-user system, and AFAIK making it multi-user is pretty low on Be's priority list. There's no real need to for their target market, and many other things that need to be worked on in the more immediate future.
MS is obviously trying to win a PR battle. These arguments should not fool anyone with a decent education. They know they're going to lose, and they're trying to win over Joe Sixpack before the appeals process. MS would have you believe that the only barriers to entry in the OS market is the ability to create an OS. If this were true, Linux would own NT's market share, and BeOS and the like would be on everyones desktop. Based strictly on their merits. But this is not the case.
MS has a couple major things going for them. One of which is that since Windows is the standard desktop OS and most consumers demand it from OEMs, they are able to exert a great deal of influence over those OEMs. The OEMs' profit margins these days are very thin, and everyone knows that they can't sell if they don't preinstall Windows. MS basically tells these OEMs what they should do, or MS will charge them more then their competitors. A couple bucks might not sound like much, but to these OEMs it is a big deal. Like it or not, few people are going to spend money to try installing an operating system on their own with unknown results.
Another advantage is that MS also has control over most of the standard applications. People want and need these applications. It is very hard for competitors because MS doesn't disclose their entire API. In fact, MS does just the opposite. They alter windows in little undisclosed ways to make the competitors products crash and operate slower. Companies like Be may have a superior OS, but they simply don't have the applications yet. Without a significant market share no one is going to develop strong applications for the alternative platforms. Also, without well recognized competitive applications to Office* and the like, there is no competitor who can port their killer app and lend clout to the likes of BeOS.
MS has their competitors by the balls in significant ways. These are just two barriers to entry. If I were the DoJ, I would demand the following:
a) If MS wishes to produce both applications and the operating system that they run on, they should be forced to fully disclose their API and the like. Furthermore, MS should have to pay for a full time arbritation board composed of people who are familiar with the software industry and who have full legal authority to make key decisions. My reasoning for this is simple. I do think government regulation of the software industry could indeed be very harmful. MS can argue this effectively. For example, lets say if the government introduces a new law that seperates software application firms from operating system firms. There is a strong argument that it is neccessary for the operating system firm to produce applications for their OS initially. To both demonstrate the potential of the OS, and to provide atleast some reasonably productive products. My proposal would atleast level the playing field for the most part.
b) That MS be prohibited from using any discriminative pricing amongst OEMs. The argument of economies of scale simply do not apply to such software distribution. The ability to price OEMs differently, with little to no immediate regulation, allows MS to use the stick and carrot approach with OEMs such that the OEMs sell as they wish. This simply can not be allowed. Whatever arguments can be made for such pricing, pales in comparison to the draw backs for society and for the OEMs.
Although this does not address every problem with the beast that is MS. It addresses two of the most significant problems with MS.
Just what is the pedigree of Be? It sounds to me like they're a company founded and built, by an on, former Apple-ites.. It sprung on the scene recently, just as MS started to get pummled for being a monopoly. Around the same time MS gave Apple a whole lot of cash...
Now MS is paying for Apple's SuperBowl ad, and Be says it is NOT a contender.
Methinks the alternative OS doth protest too much.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
A few years back the US Federal Government mandated that they would only buy computers that were "Energy Star" compliant. Very quickly, all manufacturers leaped to meet this criteria. Power consumption is now taken into serious consideration (for various reasons beyond the original government contracts) when hardware, and increasing software is designed. Everyone benefitted.
:) That only leaves you know who.
:)
What if the Feds were to step up to the plate again with a new initiative; All operating systems on Federal purchase orders must have a retail shelf price of $30.00 or less. Already Linux and *BSD are freebies, and I'm certain Be would negotiate with a bonanza like that offered.
If Microsoft does play ball; The prices come crashing down to Earth! MS would start unbundling their OSes to make money the stuff that should be separate in the first place, best of breed software returns. OEMs have a set low price no matter which OS they choose to offer. MS loses it's ability to threaten price increases.
If Microsoft doesn't play ball; Linux, BeOS and their ilk start appearing on lots of computers. With a huge market created, it's fair to assume that many new programmers (plus the reassigned Government coders) and companies will release more applications and drivers. It would be the snowball effect that Windows currently benefits from.
Either way; Other countries and Fortune 500s, would monitor the outcome closely. A major precedent will have been made and it would only be a matter of time before the world followed. This defiantly would need to be a phased in program, (unless Microsoft agreed the same day) and there would still be teething problems, but a lot of Taxpayers money would be saved.
There would be no need for Government regulation. If Microsoft (or any other vender) doesn't wish to sell at that price, then they should leave to tender bidding to competitors that will. US Capitalism would have an opportunity to save face.
Mainframes would be a harder lot to lump into this equation, but with the value of service contracts spanning over several years, IBM could probably give the OS away.
Just a simple question: how do you crash less often then never?
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
True, I keep forgeting that Be is still in the devlopment stages.....still, we need more toys....Be could easily become one of my primary OS's if it just had more stuff on it. I love Linux for its versitility, and its politics, but frankly I don't really have enought time to get the full benefit out of my Linux systems. Its odd that Be crashed....I have tortured it and have not been able to even lock up a program...but my hardware, through sheer luck, is right off of the list....and I've only had R4 for several days, so who knows.
/.er that doesent) so I tend to overlook these things), yet the company has enough closed that it can feel secure in its product. I wish everything could be OSS, but work needs to be done on the business model before it really becomes viable....and its being done, just not ready yet. In the meantime, Be seems like a benevolent company, making a great product, and I am happy to give them my money. If its got to be propriatory, then they are doing it in a respecatable manner. Lets hope they remain that way.
I would be truely sad if Be went down....it would be nice to see them open source it if it died, but thats still a hollow win. I would rather them OS it and still keep activly developing it....but that might not be fesable. I'm just sick of seing superior technologies die due to the mass stupidity of the average buyer, and lets face it, if the average buyer is not using an OS, then it will be religated to a niche role, always playing second fiddle in terms of applications and the like (though linux seem to be changing this somewhat)....it really would be nice to be able to run everything I do one one os....curretnly I'm booting between three. Windoze for games, Linux for actually doing stuff and Be for shits and giggles. I've said it before and I'll say it again....if Be and Linux could somehow be merged....than the resulting combo would simply take over the world.
I actually think that Be is striking a good median between OSS and propiratory. Some of its code and much of its developement community is OSS, and the API is open (I don't code, probably the only
Point 1: OS's impact anything one does on a computer, the basics of their design may have been mastered awhile ago so that they are no longer "problems", but OS's are stll of vital importance.
Point 2: Stability is only on of Be's strenghs, it is also extremely fast, has an extremely clean interface, and supposadly has a great API. Multiuser is nice, but really not needed for most people. I, for instance, have almost no need for it. BTW, at some point I believe Be was intended to be multiuser, the home directory remains, but I think they ditched mutiuser plans....anyone know more about this?
Point 3: Who cares the CEO, its the product that counts. Yeah, I've heard bad things about Gassee too, there was a Wired article several years ago that was scathing...hey, maybe he learned from his mistakes.
Point 4: Well, yeah, fanatics suck....but most Be users are, in my experience, far more reasonable than most fanatics....all OS's, even the crappy ones, have fanatics......and their annoyingness transcends to OS.
From a purely technical standpoint....Be is superior to almost anything out there for the desktop market....sure the Unixs are far more flexable and make far better servers, but when it comes to a pure desktop, Be is as stable as Linux, faster than anythings I've ever seen, and easier to use than even the Macos
None of this matters, if the superior product would have one in the market place, the world would be running OS/2 right now rather than windows.
Be would make a better destop os than any windows products, however I have a feeling that Be calls itself a niche as it is trying to avoid falling under the wanton eyes of Microsoft. But lets fact it, what desktop application would not benefit from the advantages of a mediaOS....basically means it runs stuff faster than hell (no, it is not a good server OS)
I just really with it was open source, not that I think that everything in this world has to be open source, but being open source would solve many of Be's problems, such as lack of HW support and a more active developor community creating and porting software to it. There already is a certain OSS feel to alot of Be software, alot of it is open, however it definetly lacks the vigor of something like Linux...
I'm not sure of the dates, but Be was around long before MS started investing in Apple...I think its atleast acouple years old. Its CEO and founder used to be an Apple bigwig...I dont know about the rest of the people there though.
Brian
Good for you! You don't need a copy of MS Bullshit! You've got integrity!
Folks, if you are gonna buy a commercial os (No, Linux will NEVER fully cover the world), buy BeOS, AmigaOS, or OS-X/server.
P.S. Remember how much money Standard Oil gained FULLY after dividing? Yeah, MS is an even bigger threat...
John Hancock ->
IMHO the fact that Microsoft is pointing to BeINC and saying "LOOK LOOK!, they make an os!" is PATHETIC! It's a sure sign they are heading to their own destruction, and i for one will be there to help smash em apart ;) I wonder what DRUGS the person at M$ was on when they came up with that defense. Be would be lucky to have sales of their os reach 1/20000 of the those of Windows. sheesh.
Well, from what I understand, R3.2 isn't that great, R4 supports so much MORE hardware. I know findign a copy of R4 is hard, but try Http://www.bedepot.com its $69 for the full version or R4, each .x release is FREE and each major relase is just $25. I know Be has very limited hardware support now, but with only 80ppl working there, I am impressed with what they have support for.
Not the same thing at all. If you Remove the shell you can still put ANOTHER SHELL IN ITS PLACE. None of the shells are integrated parts of Linux. A web browser is a program that lest your view HTML over a network. IT has no buisness being an integrated PART of the OS. Included/bundled with the OS, definatly. How would you like it if you biught your new car, and it cane with a built in Hanson CD that can't be removed without destroying the car, and auto-runs when you turn the car off? BLAH
I sir wanted to talk to you about naming CopenOS in your latest lawsuit as a competitor. An OS that I wrote, that only works on my computer, and only runs a crappy IRC program, a lame text editor, and a java compiler probably doesn't count as "A Serious Competitor". I too market to a small niche, being ME. Please leave my name out of all your future lawsuits or I will be forced to get the CopenOS legal team to look into the matter. Thankyou.