Slashdot Mirror
Freesoft vs. Microsoft
elam writes "The cover of this month's
Tech Review
is a boxing match mock-up "face-off" btwn Gates and Torvalds and reads "Freesoft VS Microsoft".
The main article is good (and it's online), it talks a lot about GNOME, GNU, a bit about KDE, but has interviews with the man himself (Linus), Stallman, Eric Raymond and a boatload of other Linux devotees. Good reading for all."
This is a good article. It still nothing new though.
Ah, so now we have the Slashdot anti-KDE attitude making it into the mainstream press now. Wonderful. We get paragraph after paragraph of how Gnome 'will' be this and 'will' be that (even though it is a total KDE ripoff at this point), and all we get about KDE is how it is 'tainted' with the official proclaimation: "probably!"
Probably? Sez WHO? Christ, NO mention is given about how KDE is HERE and NOW (while GNOME is pre alpha as far as I'm concerned). No mention about how hard the KDE folks have worked, no mention about just what KDE IS even...just the hint that it is tainted due to mystical licensing concerns, case closed. Nothing to see here, no nothing at all... What a load of SHIT, total, and utter SHIT. Even Linus doesn't have a problem with KDE (and Qt), but no mention of THAT, it might ruin their pretty little utopian article.
Of course, all the mouth-foaming idiots will now flame me because I 'dare' to support KDE...oh god forbid.
Well, I haven't used Gnome (I haven't felt it truly stable yet) but I am using kde v1.1, and I love it. I don't really care about the licensing or the concern, it's a great desktop and I like it. I think the people making kde have done a great job. We all have our own opinions, but just think how long it would have taken to get Gnome going if Corel hadn't shown some interest in KDE.
Obviously I'm not the only person who likes kde. Use what you want, just don't push your desires on me. One of the reasons I love linux is because I can make it the way I want it to be.
This was on /. many weeks ago!!!
/. altogether (just to incorporate it into their PR department...)
What's up with Slashdot? Do you always post pro-RedHat articles twice?
I wonder how long it'll take until RedHat takes over
Im sure if the article was pure (pro?) kde, then the gnome people would be up in arms.
:-
What the original poster meant, was the way how the information was provided. It is not the fact that the article is pro-Gnome, it is the way false information is spread about KDE and RedHat's competitors.
This is pure RedHat FUD, and this is sad, because I don't want to see something like this happen in the Linux world.
The journalists obviously asked only the one side, and thus the result is biased. But for the sake of fairness it would have been necessary to stick to the facts, at least.
RedHat has lost their innocense. They behave just like Microsoft now
I have to say that, by supplying a copious amount of your own mouth-foaming flames, your post is certainly a good way to bring out all the other mouth-foaming flamers. While I could continue this fine tradition, I really only have a simple question.
Why does it matter that one open source project is more popular than another open source project?
My opinion is that it doesn't matter at all. Since both projects are made of the same fabric (Open Source), they should eventually weave together. The advantage we have with two seperate projects is that they are acting out different design goals and decisions. Over time we get to see the two projects reap from their designs. And this will allow the community to pick and choose the best of both projects in the future.
Anyway, my opinion is just that and I'm wondering how you respond to the question.
The KDE folks just don't get it. They really don't, until fairly recently they had a page on their website that said RMS was 'a very dangerous' person. Bullocks! The only thing he is dangerous to is their pro-nonfree software ideals. they still try to slander his character on their 'Food for Thought' page.
Now I want to ask this: If RMS is so dangerous and KDE is really and truly free then what's their purpose? Seriously. RMS has started a revolution, or at least fueled it along, and now we have GNU/Linux systems and KDE is going to be a frontend for them but they have some sort of ideological problem with it because RMS is supposedly this big bad guy who is trying to undermine the world. They are just acting, kde.com is in the works, just watch and see.
All of their anti-gnome fodder is straight out of the corporate handbook, KDE is here now (no shit, CDE was there before KDE, did that stop anybody?) KDE is 1.1 GNOME is pre-1.0 (big deal, NT is pre 5.0 and mac is pre-10.0, I'm not convinced), QT is free now (more BS, QT has only annouced something that looks like freedom, they haven't delivered it) That's the same brand of FUD that is spread by big companies. Where are they going with it?
KDE is a slick product, it works well. I won't deny that. It is also more mature than gnome, but the gap is closing fast, even faster now that they are trying to knock off all of the gnome innovations. Despite that, there is no reason for KDE to even act like it is the standard desktop of linux because it isn't and the people who are pushing it don't support linux's ideals. They have gone through a carefully orchestrated song and dance to pretend like they do but they don't, I honestly can't see how they can claim that they do while slamming one of the fathers of OSS and the linux movement. I think it is all just an act to build marketshare for the big switch they are planning. You watch: kde.com is coming and we will all be thankful that the GNOME effort has been done.
THANK YOU!
I was about to say the same thing! That article was so pro-GNOME it was starting to make me ill. Then that part about Troll Tech's QT "tainting" KDE set me off!
KDE is here NOW, KDE works NOW, KDE doesn't require 100+ development libraries that change regularly... and so on...
These GNOME people get on my nerves.
ESR lunatic zealotry makes RMS look like the Pope.
No article is ocmplete with RMS and ESR putting forward the extreme ends of reality.
Bummer
Anon Dude Writes:
>All of their anti-gnome fodder is straight out of >the corporate handbook,
...,
>QT is free now (more BS, QT has only annouced >something that looks like freedom, they haven't >delivered it)
Where've you been? QT2.0 beta is out now.
Also, you sound like some kind of a conspiracy theorist. I suppose you think the govenment is after you, too, eh?
>You watch: kde.com is coming and we will all be >thankful that the GNOME effort has been done.
Perhaps you should review your cheerished GPL license: The KDE code could then be forked.
You're just parinoid -- calm down.
I just love the selective defense of RMS's character you slashdotters use. Whenever RMS posts his opinion 99% of you people come out of the woodwork screaming and yelling about how he doesn't represent your opinions. Yet, when it comes to defending one of your golden calves (Gnome) you'll be the first to hold up your RMS flags.
How many times does it need to be said that KDE isn't trying to take over anything? You don't like it, don't use it. You don't like the Qt license, then go Gnome and revel in your supposed superiority over the rest of us. Contrary to the KDE camp, you Gnome wannabe's are the ones that want to put gnome everywhere at the expense of other projects. I don't have a problem that Gnome exists, unlike you Gnome fanatics...the mere THOUGHT that something like KDE exists (and pre-existed) just makes you foam at the mouth. No, we 'get it' fella. You won't be satisfied until the KDE folks black their web page and put up a "we quit" sign.
Kde.com? Hey, send over some of that weed you're smokin'. Sounds like some good stuff. Right now, I'm thankful I have a decent, STABLE system like KDE (unlike the bug-ridden crashfest known as Gnome...say, what functions failed to resolve in libgtk today?). You don't mind a constantly crashing desktop? Have fun.
I have _yet_ to see any kind of shifty activity from the KDE folks like you suggest. The same goes for the Gnome developers, they are pretty cool as well. It's the rest of you armchair wannabe developers that are the cause of all this anti-whatever hooplah, as usual.
...would be quite appropriate.
Anyway, however you feel about KDE and Gnome, FUD remains FUD, and this article contains quite a lot of it. This is inexcusable.
What I love about KDE is that it is truly independent, while Gnome is just a RedHat project, and utterly dependent on this ruthless company.
TrollTech, however, is rather controlled by KDE (see KDE free Qt foundation) than the other way round.
And as for Gnome closing the gap: I hope they make good progress, but you shouldn't mistake feature creep as innovation. Getting something 90% done is relatively easy, the last 10% are the hard part...
Gnome is GPL. It is controlled by no one. A number of distributions and other organizations have decided to support its development (includeing Red Hat, Debian, FSF, etc.).
KDE is dependent on Qt, which is completely controlled by Troll Tech. The Free QT foundation is a load of bull.
Hmmm... That's an odd command they had in the article. P'raps they meant 'mount -t iso9660 /dev/cdrom /mnt/cdrom'.
What good is a fork if you lose your widget set in the process?
You think like a windows user. There is no such
thing as a "rip-off" of an open source project.
The whole point of open source is that others can use your ideas and code as they see fit. Let a thousand flowers bloom.
we don't compete with you, we don't want to. Please don't compete with us. We're going to talk shit about you but we're not in a competition with you.
Give me a break.
How ironic. The article is probably created with MS Frontpage. The punctuation is all wrong when view with Netscape and Linux. Someone should run the demoronizer script on it.
oh no - not the FUD-screamers again
Well, QT and KDE is written in C++, in then UNIX world ANSI C is the standard language to write software in, so most people hack in C on UNIX, thats why KDE and QT is bad, its also much harder to write KDE/QT applications then there are no other language bindings, like scheme, perl, pyton, etc.
Gnome vs. KDE - get over it.
This article may be pro-gnome, but is that the developers fault? Is that any reason to spread some fud of your own? Your acting like fsking 10 year olds.
Just shut the fsck up and/or code. Noone cares about you try-hards. The developers are doing their own thing. Noone cares that you like KDE over GNOME, or GNOME over KDE or think RedHat are some monsterous entity (that is soooooo funny. I am yet to see RH do anything anti-gpl. It's amazing what RH have managed to do: create business opportunities whilst still remaining completely gpl-compatible etc... RH are a BLESSING, not a fsking MS)
The arguments have been repeated time and time again. If you did a diff of the text in the comments to any GNOME or KDE-related article the result would probably be :
---
Cheers
AndyM
I'm not sure, but I think this might be the first time I've seen him refered to be his real name alone.
I work late nights/graveyard shift. I never have any trouble getting into anything. :) Also a lot easier to maintain machines this way. No whiny users, only hardcore folks with a strong cluefield, on the average.
LOL!!! Slashdot is pro-Red Hat?!?! Someone encountering this online
'Jerry Springer Show' might conclude that SlashDot is a clever M$ AstroTurf
campaign to discredit Linux by spreading propaganda against the one business
entity that has done the most to promote Linux as a commercially usable system.
I agree 100%, gnome will be the standard desktop soon, and not because I like redhat either, I hate them with a passion in fact. And even when the free qt is released I still won't support it or KDE because it just plain sucks.
Anonymous Coward asked:
Since when has there EVER been a standard desktop on UNIX?
Since May 20, 1998. That was the day the Unix98 standard was relesed. In the workstation portion of the standard, it identifies CDE, running on Motif and the X Window System as the standard Unix desktop.
Personally, I refuse to accept CDE as my desktop, and I would like to see healthy Free alternatives (such as GNOME, GNUStep and KDE) both competing and collaborating as a choice of desktop environments. None of them can be the standard, because the Open Group sets the standard, and they will never accept any of them.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
It ought to be illegal to post stories containing 2 or more of the following on the front page of
1) Linux vs. Bill
2) Opensource vs. CLosed Source
3) KDE & Gnome
4) Interview with [linux/rms/esr/etc]
Oh well, I'll read it later I guess.
There are more important things to worry about than KDE/Gnome. I don't fret myself over it. I use both of them interchangeably.
Think happy thoughts! Happy happy Happy HAppY HAPPY HAPPY GODDAMMIT I'M HAPPY! HAHAHAHAHAHA! (strokes fluffy white cat named "Precious" and pushes evil buttons).
--- Journals are boring; Go to my web page instead
RMS deserves a lot of credit for starting this movement. He also deserves a lot of ridcule for trying to exert exclusive control over it. Get over it, RMS, the movement is bigger than just you now, and if you aren't big enough to accept the fact that this means there will be some people in it that you don't like, then up yours. Welcome to the real world, where you can't control what everybody says and thinks, and where people don't want to fund software with a FSF tax. Why trade one unfair software tax for another? You shouldn't have to pay for what don't use - it's true for Microsoft and its true for the FSF also.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
The article?s pretty good, but the site?s in some serious need of demoronizing, ?cause it?s got screwed up apostorphes (?).
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Unfortunately, this has to be said abou the GPL.
One thing the Linux community stands for is FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
However, with the GPL, we have no choice whatsoever -- use ten lines of GPL code in our program and we have to make it GPL. Linking such a program to a non-GPL library and you cannot redistribute the result (unless you own the rights to the GPL code mentioned).
Its worth discussing this, since we may end one 'lack of choice' only to be trapped by another one
p.s. Take this a Devil's advocate statement, since I myself support GNU/Linux, but openly support the idea of more than one free software license.
John_Chalisque
The KDE people need to draft some ammendments, call these the 'KDE Qt/GPL software ammendments' or somehting similar, and then allow people to
say (This program may be distributed under the GPL, they following may also be applied by whoever distributes the program... (quote KDE stuff)).
Think about this a little, and bear in mind
that the GPL only disallows additional restrictions, not additional permissions
John_Chalisque
it. You don't like
the Qt license, then go Gnome and revel in your supposed
superiority over the rest of us.
Right now, I'm thankful I have a
decent, STABLE system like KDE (unlike the bug-ridden
crashfest known as Gnome...say, what functions failed to resolve
in libgtk today?). You don't mind a constantly crashing desktop?
Have fun.
I don't have a
problem that Gnome exists, unlike you Gnome fanatics
Make your mind up.
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
...complain about KDE fudsters and then try to spread fear by saying KDE is going commercial?
I won't even try to dissect the dozen lies or attempts at searing there are in this utterly worthles post, but I will say this: The page he says smears RMS is an interview. With him.
...complain about KDE fudsters and then try to spread fear by saying KDE is going commercial?
On other notes: "Qt has not delievered (whatever)" Qt is not a company, TT is.
TT has promised that Qt 2.0 will be released under a open source license. Qt 2.0 has not yet been released (it is available as a beta, though), so where is the lie in that?
Finally: the chance of KDE going commercial is less than the chance of the FSF going commercial.
At least the FSF owns copyright of its software, while KDE's belongs to each of the hundreds of contributor.
Download the beta and read the README.
As for KDE's switching to Artistic, several pieces already have, didn't you look?
Is assignment of copyright to the FSF demanded for
GNOME code?
I would be very surprised since there is at least one piece of it that asks for copyright assignment to someone else (libart)
Anyone get the starting music of Star Wars anywhere? That's the music to go with the story...
Free Software: the software by the people, of the people and for the people. Develop! Share! Enhance! Enjoy!
This article was the first time that I had read that RMS had developed a disability that made it painful to type. I know that a condition that prevented me from typing on my computer would drive me crazy. This makes me want to look into getting some sort of ergonomic keyboard.
Anyone know what he uses now? Voice recognition software?
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
It really suites the mainstream journalists and closed source funded media to emphasize Gnome over KDE. The reasons are quite simple.
1 : KDE works already and a system with KDE preloaded is a credible contender on the desktop.
2 : Gnome verbally promises to be better than KDE and everything else.
3 : The Gnome Design is _not_ so spectacularly superior as to render KDE obsolete. In fact once you get past the stability and License issues. Gnome vs KDE becomes a simple matter of taste. No major objective superiority just "Well I like the Gnome theme manager or I prefer the KDE PPP Dialer".
4 : Gnome is Alpha ( BETA is when the whole thing is frozen and only bugfixes are going into CVS ) Therefore any Semi clued person who tries to install it today will suffer for it and possibly hate the system.
All these things taken together mean that Linux is an unfulfilled promise, just like Windows "Look how long we have been waiting for a desktop".
They mean that the well hyped "way of the future" will be a massive letdown. Gnome is impressive on it's own. To someone who already has a Working KDE installation it's just an alternative with no clear advantages.
Most important, it lets the apparent feud within the community flourish.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
That was a great article. Yes, nothing new, but I sent it off to several that had never installed Linux who thought is was a good read, and inspiring.
pronoblem
Shut up, Jirka. :)
Btw, panel crashed my X at least 2 times. And rename that damn thing gpanel, please.
-N.
Time to add my fuel to the fire.
Linux is great, it runs fast even on old hardware. Efficency and low overhead are 2 thing that characterize linux during. Let's put linux on a slightly older machine, like this:
Pentium 150
32MB Ram
2MB VRAM
2GB Hard Drive.
This computer will get the job done, and be nice and responsive. Now, lets load gnome onto it. But we know that X in general is a memory hog, so let's bump the ram up to 128MB which should be plenty. Let's also run it as a decent resolution, for this we need a better video card, let's go with an older 4MB card; say a Number Nine GXE64 Pro. Not a bad little card. Ok, now linux runs great. Start gnome... HOLY F**K*NG S**T, I can actually see it drawing the menus on the screen for gnome panel. AAARRRGGGHHH, I just tried to resize the gmc window. It should start responding again in 5 seconds or so.
Gnome is the most inefficent desktop environment I've ever used, Lose95/98/NT are WWAAAYYY faster on this hardware. M$ forces hardware upgrades by bogging down your machine. Gnome does the same, but to a more insulting degree. I'm not going to upgrade just so I can have GTK+ Themes. I guess this is what happens when all the programers testing gnome on their octuple processor 8000 gigahertz workstations with 4 terabytes of ram dont' test it on older hardware.
Linux make a great server, because it can use hardware considered out of date by NT people. Linux may be free, but if you want a workstation it's going to cost you a testicle in hardware upgrade fees.
While not the fastest thing around, KDE is at least responsive, functional, and productive. I've used it since the 1.0beta1 days on the above hardware. It's very productive for programming, graphics manipulation, and data processing & vizualization. Gnome loses lots of points and people because they can't afford to upgrade to be productive on it. In that regards Gnome is NOT free for most people. In fact it's even for expensive than Window 9* or NT. I'll upgrade someday, after I finish school, get a job, sell my first 2 children. Then I'll try gnome again, until then I'll use something free and productive.
Andrew
"You never know when some crazed rodent with cold feet might be running loose in your pants."
-Calvin
It is bad, since they either by accident, by stupidity or on purpose did not base their work on pure GPL foundation. Now they are in trouble because of that. Well, GPL is best, pure copyrighted software is acceptable under certain circumstances, but playing the kind of games QT, BSD, KDE and others is bad. Let's be honest. There is enough of one Bill Gates as a master liar for the industry.
Vassili Leonov
Has the site been slashdotted already?
I'm going to start reading old news only. I can never get into a site just announced.
*whimper*
...suckling from the sweet amnion of life...
Some of you keep saying that the article is either old...or that you liked the article but it's nothing new. I for one liked the article...and it's all new information for me.
Linux, and other participating projects in the free code movement are all new to me. This is a very interesting article to found out what my new experimental operating system is all about. It's nice to know a projects roots. Whereas with something like MS-Win95's history isn't taken. Probably that has to do with the fact that it was bought, but you never know.
Great article...thanks for the heads up.
I belive that this one's already been posted, way back in Dec. I know I looked for my fathers copy of Technology Review when I visited at Christmas, and read the article. See the previous posting. --A
It sounds as if they talked about you. I mean, you really seam mad about this. Don't take things like this so personally.
By the way, this article is over a month old.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
I am a student at Penn State and we are exmining this story in an ethics in technology in class on Thursday afternoon. The issue is whether Bill Gates is ethical in his business practices, given the state of the Freeware movement. Please note, many of the students in this class didn't know before this article that there was another operating system available for PCs. Tehy have only seen Macs and WinNT.
I'll post some notes about our discussion of this topic after class Thursday.
Thanks Slashdot!
Very well written, and serves the eternal function of attracting Doze users over.
>The notion of a small band of unpaid part-timers >challenging one of the world's most
>dominant corporations may seem absurd...
"That's the way UH HUH UH HUH I like it UH HUH UH HUH!"
I have to say, even coming from MIT, that unless you were a CS major, Linux wasn't that prevalent. However, after reading the article in Tech Review, I think I'm going to set up an inexpensive laptop running Linux just to play around with. I certainly learned more about Linux from that article, than I did in 4 year at MIT. I'm keeping that issue! (Plus my wedding picture is in it too :)
KDE -- here, awesome and free -- is my best choice
especially when I have nothing close to compare.
After using -and loving- KDE, I don't really care
when or if GNOME is available. Probly will try it tho.