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The Unofficial Guide to Lego Mindstorms
Clifton Tipon wrote in to tell us that O'Reilly has a book on Lego Mindstorms for all you robot junkies out there. They're definitely covering the spectrum over there.
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Gosh, I guess I never thought I needed a book to teach me anything about sex. I mean if there's anything that is self-documenting, sex has got to be it. :-)
Babar
Sure there are. And they are great too. If anyone can tell you how Windows *does* work, it's O'Reilly. Check out http://windows.oreilly.com for their series on Windows and Windows NT. Especially the one on Event Logging. Now *that's* a funny book :-)
[John]
Shit better not happen!
But fortunately, none about awful M$ crap.
Hint: if you want to survive the stuff boiling at Microsoft Research, look beyond C, C++, Java, perl, python, etc.
When Steve Wozniak showed his employer (Hewlett Packard, I think) his prototype for the Apple II, they said something along these lines- "What are people going to do with a computer?" Sheesh! Look at the world now! I can't believe the number of people who responded to the story about the images recorded from a cat's brain (two weeks ago) in the same way. People were saying, "Great! So now we'll get to see pics of balls of yarn and catfood bowls." sjohnson|AT|smart.net
Actually, I see them as more than a curiosity. The sets provide an excellent platform with the basic materials needed to learn a lot about robotics, and even programming, and develop test models for robot designs. They can be put together and changed quickly and fairly inexpensively. Once a person developes and programs a good design they might be able to translate it to a more rigid design that can handle temperature extremes, chemical spills etc. The most important aspects to this are learning and development. They provide an interesting platform for kids and adults to learn about and further develop the field of robotics. Many fields of science and engineering benefit from the work of amateurs and hobbyists. Lego has provided a fun system that helps to open up the world of robotics to many who otherwise wouldn't be able to explore it.
Tell me about it. Everything is way better now than it was back then. Even the fairly tame stuff is pretty cool. And it's not jsut computers and electronic stuff. I mean, don't you wish you'd had access to Stomp Rockets? And on and on...
Babar
>:) Jeez, when I was in my final year of CS, I >had a hard enough time configuring a NN for even >basic recognition tasks!!! You really think >there are minors out there who are writing >cutting edge AI algorithms? Hmmm..... Believe it or not, but at 16 I was delving into nueral nets and such, so yeah I'm sure there are plenty of minors out there delving into this stuff..
What you need is a Lego Mindstorms robot capable of assembling a clone of itself. Use one kit to build the first robot, and then automagically build six more using what you have on hand. Drop them all off in a Toys R Us late at night, and let them liberate and assemble their buddies. If the toy store is a rockin...
Build a driver bot, and have them hijack a truck to Legoland. Once they get there, its all over. The resulting army will help you take over the world. You will rule with your army of Legobots from a hollowed out volcano with giant video screens. Of course you could build a Mindstorms football team instead...
Holding, bot number 100101, ten brick penalty, repeat second down.
-BW
I work for a company that does laboratory automation. Most of our equipment, including our robotic arm, is designed only to move small sample plates that weigh a few ounces. I think that perhaps your definition of a useful robot is a little too narrow.
Here's a link to one of our robots: ORCA Robotic Arm
We send some of our smaller projects out to local universities for use as senior projects, and some of those teams have used Mindstorms as a tool for building prototypes. My alma mater, Rose-Hulman, is actually using Mindstorms as a part of their Mechatronics course.
Hmm, I see, on their list of recent and upcoming titles:
:)
The Fearless Shopper (arguably an aspect of finance/economics)
Adventure of Food (diets of other cultures)
Several books on cancer, leukemia, psychological disorders (significant aspects of hygeine)
Testosterone Planet (hehehe..sex...hehehe)
..as well as several travel books. They ARE diversifying. And they've been for a while: look at their full product index sometime. Sure, we can't live by O'Reilly's words yet. Give it a few more months.
-Chris
1. Do they come with temperature, motion, pressure or any similar sensor packages?
The Robotics Invention System comes with two touch sensors and one light sensor. You can buy rotation and temperature sensors from LEGO. Beyond that, you'll have to build your own. (I have a chapter about this, including instructions for a Hall effect sensor.)
2. Does the ora book give a pinout on the connectors so custom electronics can be added?
No. Nobody's tried to open up the box to attach stuff directly to the circuitboard, as far as I know. The closest information I know about is at Kekoa Proudfoot's site: http://graphics.stanford.edu/~kekoa/rcx/
3. Are there motor specifications so that motors can be removed/ redesigned/ remounted?
There's some motor information at Dave Baum's site: http://www.enteract.com/~dbaum/lego/motors.html
The Mindstorms book has quite a bit on Visual Basic.
O'Reilly writes plenty on Microsoft. But they seem to be pretty objective about it, with titles like "Outlook Annoyances".
There are tons and tons of European soccer lego-based bots. I can't find any links off of the top of my head, but my favorite one had an entire assembly of arms and motors to drive them. The purpose? To do a victory dance. None other. Crazy Europeans, heh? :)
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
"The Unofficial Guide to ..." was a series of MS Windows books edited (sometimes written) for Addison Wesley by Woody Leonhard. He's since edited (and sometimes written) the "Annoyances" series of MS Windows books for O'Reilly. (Both series recommended.)
Coincidence?
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
At the risk of showing my age, the only other options were Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets and Mr. PotatoHead. Legos were a big step up. As a kid, I missed out on all the cool new stuff.
Well maybe I am just daydreaming but I thought that robotics and related classes took quite a bit of foreground knowledge in electronics, math, science, material analysis, etc. Usually this would mean a group of grad students at MIT or something. I really am quite skeptical about informal knowledge because there is no way to ask questions or get feedback on anything that is there. You cannot for example take knowledge from medical books or law books and then put on your resume that you are a competent doctor or lawyer; or at least I wouldn't. One of the stumbling blocks is where to get all these electronic goodies. In the place where I live, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA the radio shack places seem to be places that sell cheesy merchandice and premade hardware. I have seen little that indicates any parts (unless you cannibalize something) that could be made to work for a robot on such a low level.
I very much doubt that that would happen since the above post dosn't really mention linux as it's subject matter. A person using windows could be argued to be worse In terms of having easier access to the mentioned technology from lego to construct the device. In all probability this is perhaps something that military has considered. I just think that spending $5,000,000 on legos might tip them off.
"Did you have time to design neural networks when you were a kid?" :). Or are you saying at 16 I should have been publishing the seminal works on AI? :)
:) I guess what I'm saying is there's a fine line between spoon fed and encouraging an interest in learning for it's own sake. The ORA book can only be a positive step in this direction - sort of a next step bible, by the sounds of things.
:) Jeez, when I was in my final year of CS, I had a hard enough time configuring a NN for even basic recognition tasks!!! You really think there are minors out there who are writing cutting edge AI algorithms? Hmmm.....
:)
Nope. But then, when I was a kid, I'm fairly sure even Minsky himself was only just out of short trousers, far less getting into neurotransmitters & NN topologies
"This is exactly like the calculator argument... Sure, having calculators readily available means that kids nowadays can't calculate anything [...] But it also means they can move on more quickly to stuff like Calculus".
And still have no clue about what the numbers mean! Would you prefer to run before you could walk?
"...difficult for everyone out of "fairness" for the "old guard". I for one am happy to see that today, it is as easy building a robot as building Lego sets."
I wasn't talking about "fairness". But when a kid gets used to having it easy all the time because the knowledge base required is too low, it gets dangerous for their future development. Like how will they deal with any problems that crop up? If you already understand the nature of the beast, you're already halfway there to finding a solution. It just worries me that as soon as the learning curve is no longer spoon fed, kids with their ever decreasing attention spans will just walk away. That said, you make the entry level too hard and no kid will even get the box open!
"Like designing more complex AI, for instance."
To answer your question on OSS: what do you mean, an "equivalent" to Mindstorms? Lego Mindstorms are Open Source, because they give you the "code" (plans) and they're free, so you can expand on them!
I mean something along the lines of circuit diagrams (even kits) to build your own of this type stuff, plus the low level software to make it go - "luge" has already posted some of this - Thanks! . The only thing that keeps me away from the Lego stuff was that when I last played with it, it wasn't anywhere near robust enough & you couldn't easily attach it to anything other than Lego. I'm not an Electrical Engineer but I've waved a soldering iron about before & usually don't blow anything up / cause injury / destabilise minor political enclaves!
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
--
Yup.
Yes, this is technically an excellent set. It has a large number of, and wide variety of, parts. Even if you have no Lego Technics parts at all, this set serves as an excellent starter, equipping you with at least a pair of everything you might need to build a machine.
And best of all, there are plenty of Linux-related resources at http://www.crynwr.com/lego-robotics/
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Well one problem is that you can't anything really interesting with Mindstorms anyway. Can you create something that could map out a terain of a room on demand. Cary a load and move out of the way? Can it sense depth? If this cannot be done with what lego has provided in the box it is largely useless. Since most people have no knowledge about constructing, building, and maintaining.
The AI argument is almost impossible. I have never even seen anything (well except the doctor eliza type things) that do anything really cool. Most of AI is based on complex very difficult to understand principles that almost no one can understand without the use of at least 4 years of post calculus math anyway. If it's so easy why hasn't anyone produced an opensourced AI program for communication. The day I can have a scintiliating discussion on Voltaire, Dickens, and the Existential nature of man with my computer I will believe.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
And I'm writing this from NT now. I have got linux (SUSE6.1 if anyone cares) but I don't seem to use it apart from for university projects.
And I'm writing this from NT now.
I have got linux (SUSE6.1 if anyone cares) but I don't seem to use it apart from for university projects.
damn ... you are lucky I hust checked out the link at CPS196. There's some pretty interesting stuff here. If anyone else is looking for an interesting read and problems then read on, especially the different design and code examples there's even the reading list :)
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
I've got both on order at amazon.../ o/qid=940377031/sr=8-2/002-1147117-22058 04
(Dave Baum's Definitive Guide to LEGO Mindstorms) - of NQC fame.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893115097
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
If you can't get it from Amazon or the normal sources (which, as far as I can tell, all list November as the issue date) order it direct from O'Reilly- they've got it in stock. I just filed mine.
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Ha.
On a more serious note, I've always been very happy with O'Reilly's offerings (Perl Cookbook, Learning Perl, some of the SQL books,etc). I'm always looking for new and expensive toys to never play with, looks like I've found a winner.
Is there a port to BeOS for the IDE (if not, anyone interested?)? And does anyone have the addy for the mailing list? And finally, anyone thought of having a Mindstorms type "convention" (maybe hook up at a Linux conference)? Personally, I'd like to figure out a way to make a Mindstorms based "robot combat" tournament. Probably not what Lego had in mind, but hey.
Have a damn nice day.
I worked for nearly a year doing tech support for LEGO Mindstorms, and I can tell you about some really weird ones. However, my favorite was the one my manager built. It would, when the top panel was pressed, use a light sensor to follow a black line of tape to the refrigerator. It would open the door (it was a small refrigerator), reach in, and if a beer was in the right place, snag one, then follow the black tape back to him. While he still needed to get up every other beer to put one in the right place, it's still a fun idea.
MODERATOR(S) - LOOK, THIS POST SHOULD BE TAGGED AS FUNNY!!
I'm not surprised such a book is coming out. I think even Lego must be surprised at the range of applications people are thinking up for these babies. Lego Mindstorms is the sole reason why I have gotten back into Lego after many joyless years of Legoless life... It's every geek child's wet dream. It's an adult geek's wet dream. From digital cameras to scanners to Enigma machines (I'm working on that one), the possibilities are just endless. I'm glad to see some serious literature being put out on the subject.
Could someone please review this book on Slashdot?
P.S.: For fans of Star Wars and Lego Mindstorms... It's been announced that Lego will put out a AT-AT Mindstorms kit. Am I the only one drooling at this? My childhood Lego fantasy was to have a AT-AT Lego model... I spent hours trying to build one. And now... I'll have one, and it'll be controlled through my computer... *happy sigh*
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
Some possible new O'Reilly Slogans:
"If their is no O'Reilly book on the subject, it isn't worth knowing."
"Everything I ever needed to know, I learned from O'Reilly books."
:P
You have to hand it to O'Reilly. They do a great job of keeping on top of the newest topics and produce great books on them. And with all of the books they have put out on various Free Software, they have proven themselves to be our ally.
(Will someone do a review on this book?)
Kudos to O'Reilly!
This sig is false.
Judging from O'Reilly's previous books, I feel it is safe to say that this book will be extremely helpful. I love Eggos!! This book will no doubt contain scrumptious recipes for these instant delights!
So is this lego mindstorm stuff any good? It's horribly tempting to get some and have a play, but it's a bit too expensive to just buy on a whim.
Sig is taking a break!
--
Jonathan has been quite active on the lego user group mailing lists, and he definitely knows his stuff- I'll be ordering the book soon. In the meantime, for those of you who aren't quite ready to buy the book, he has published an excellent list of online resources for Mindstorms. It is quite thorough, and a great place to start if you are thinking about buying a set and wondering what you can find online.
~luge(who is mentioned down there in ch. 10)
IAAL,BIANLY
Isn't this more of a curiousity thing than something useful. Legos cannot do anything more than act as a semi-regid structure. They cannot take extremes of heat, chemical spills or pressures. You really couldn't use these robots for anything except to boost your robot building ego.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
This is too cool! I attribute my aptitude for technical jobs to an early addiction to Legos. It is cool to see that other adults do not underestimate the educational value of toys. After all, the Internet is the biggest Lego set ever made :)
Hey, we're handing it to the next generation of geeks on a plate, here!!! :) my own Turtle from parts bought from RS Supplies. Then wrote a LOGO - like language (interpreted) & editor for my Commodore 64 to run it, complete with hand assembled machine code (anybody remember DATA 255,0,123,55... statements - heheh!).
When I was 16, I designed, built & tested (it worked, too!
That said, back in those days, you could buy the C64 Programmers' Reference Guide quite cheaply; it had almost a complete breakdown of the internals of the machine, way before OSS was even thought of.
I wish I could get something like that going on my PC these days; all analogue/digital expansion cards to plug non-standard H/W seem to cost a fortune these days (last I checked UK £100+).
Still, if this Mindstorm kit can give our up and coming under-geeks a head start and that all - important "how does it work" bug, the future of geekdom seems assured!
Anybody know of an OSS equivalent of the Mindstorm stuff?
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
Yews, we all build a huge super race of LEGO Mindstorms super robots and storm Microsofts HQ! Now does that o'reilly book explain how to mount 30mm cannons on a robot?
Several days after I bought a widescreen tv, a story appeared on /.
A few days ago I bought the Droid Construction Kit, and this is the best news I could have.
Tim O'reilly, I love you. I want to have your droids.
The kit itself, however, can easily be programmed with NQC, and that runs fine under Linux.
Take it like bying a new PC: it might come with Windows, but you just have to reformat and partition. I mean, why wouldn't Lego package their product for Windows? The majority of users have Windows, and they're selling a toy, not a piece of software. Boycotting Mindstorms for this reason is plain silly. And you're the one missing on the fun.
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
Since I saw this yesterday I've been arguing with myself over this one. It looks too damn cool, but I have a nasty habit of buying expensive toys and letting them rot in the closet.
Give me some incentive! Any personal expriences with these? Anything that scares cats is a plus!
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
The animal on the cover of The Unofficial Guide to Lego Mindstorms is a giant mecha-rabbit. Mechanized rabbits were popularized in anime, and frequently terrorize Neo-Tokyo. They stand between 100 and 250 feet, and carry a wide variety of armaments.
I wonder if I could con work into purchasing a few of these kits so we could do our proof of concept demonstration models. Just think: build it, code it, and re-use it for the next POC demonstration. Plus now that O'Reilly produces a book it might be possible to claim it as a "tool" not a just a "toy".
This would actually mean that controls systems became thought out etc...
Some questions for you lego heads out there:
1. Do they come with temperature, motion, pressure or any similar sensor packages?
2. Does the ora book give a pinout on the connectors so custom electronics can be added?
3. Are there motor specifications so that motors can be removed/ redesigned/ remounted?
Any thoughts?
You say you want a revolution?
I was stoked about getting one of these sets until I really looked at it (I too was going to make a lego AT-AT.). I thought I would need about 6 motors, (4 legs, 2 head) but the brick only has 3 motor outputs. If this book can tell me how to get more outputs (i.e. multiple bricks) it will be worth it. (Of course building my own board might be cool too.)
how did you become so knowledable in the field of mecha-rabbits? I tried to major in that but my college didnt offer that program. -nick
"Dummies in a nutshell", or " O'Reilly books for dummies" ? :-)
"If their is no O'Reilly book on the subject, it isn't worth knowing."
"Everything I ever needed to know, I learned from O'Reilly books."
As far as I can remember, O'Reilly has:
It's all so clear now!
... and so that I can be /.ed:
A picture of 5 Mindstorms, which use reinforcement learning to learn to push trailers around a floor without jackknifing. I actually have access to 7, so if anyone has any suggestions on what to do with all of them...
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
obviously no books on how to take humor.
Check out Michael Gasperi's page. It is far and away the most extensive discussion of sensor construction, and includes a long list of sensors that he and others have built.
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
Fetchez la vache!
I know it's been mentioned before, long ago, but while on the subject of the depth and breadth of the O'Reilly library, here's another one that's sure to be useful to most of us.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
You need a book?!?!?!
No books about hygeine.
well, when you never see the outside world anyway ;-)
No books about dieting.
You're right, but if you drink enough coffee (as any geek trying to meet a deadline is GOING to, like it or not), you'll be twitching so much you won't have a chance to gain weight!
No books about exercise.
About what?
No books about finance or economics.
Sigh. This is true. That's why we eventually turn to free software. a) we can't afford software AND hardware, and b) we can't tell if we're being ripped off by a commercial publisher or not . . . so we go free and know no one is screwing us worse than ourselves ;-)
Bad things often happen to good people,
It is up to them to see that they remain good.