Joe, I'm really sorry that VS2008 isn't supported. If you can, open a new feature request on the codeplex site & up vote it. If enough people want it, perhaps we can do something about it. thx.
From day 1 we wanted to make this a community driven project, the current plan is release it, add a bunch of features for 1.1 & 2.0 and see where it goes. Maybe it'll fizzle out, maybe it'll take off & then the big cheeses want to put it in the box (this will require giving CPR to the legal dept 1st).
It's not clear that being "in the box" is necessary is a great thing as it'll reduce our ability to do rapid releases (we had our Alpha in Jan & RTM'd in August).
vivek - Note that if you have a large source base (eg 100+ MBs) such as Enthought or ActiveState distro, it'll take about 10-15 mins for the database to be generated. Hang in there...
poena.dare - regarding Guido: He actually likes us!
We were at PyCon and he stopped by our poster session, asked a whole bunch of questions, was very engaging & then went and tweeted about PTVS. I should frame that tweet...
AC - absolutely, one of our aims was to provide a zero cost version. If you install the Integrated Shell + PTVS, you're in business. Just add a Python interpreter of your choice & you're set.
AC - your point is well taken. With a language like Python your need for a full blown IDE is reduced. I've found that using an IDE really comes down to whether the learning curve is worth it or not... there are cases like navigating a large new project, graphical debugging, completion, mixed mode or multi-lingual debugging, etc can benefit from IDE support. Is it absolutely necessary? No at all. As mentioned in another thread, even inside MS some ppl live inside VS 24X7, some just use it for the debugger & use vi/emacs otherwise... to each their won.
wrt creating a thick layer between you & your code, we've tried to avoid some of that. PTVS doesnt mess w your application directory structure, the editor stays out of your way (there's even a vi add-in!), etc. check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoGsSlrxKk
Note that cross-plat minimal IDE/REPL's like ipython.org now have syntax highlighting, completion, inline graphics, etc. as well. If don't want a full blown IDE but still a Python REPL on steroids, give ipython a shot. It has impressive interactive parallel computing features as well.
AC, siride is correct that it would be a massive undertaking with a dubious payoff.
However, imho having a VS that can let you target Linux & MacOS using your compiler/libs/runtime of choice isn't too far fetched.
I can confess that while at Sun, some devs used VC++ for productivity reasons & then recompiled using the highly optimizing (but much slower) sparc compilers...
>This is just a cheap attempt to steal potential Android developers
Of all the things PTVS has been accused of, this is a first:).
> The only way you guys can return to being the platform of choice is to have the biggest app store.
I personally agree with you 100%. There's been lots of rumors of a Win8 AppStore, tho even we don't get much info. Waiting till the BUILD conference to hear more. Would i like to see hobbyists and serious devs make $ on the Win8 AppStore with Python? You bet. You shouldn't even have to use PTVS... sadly, we're not an approved language (keeping fingers crossed).
AC - PyCharm is an awesome Python IDE. big thumbs up from us. If you require a cross-plat IDE, it's a great choice.
Regarding responding to stuff quickly - I can't speak for other projects, but that's been one of our goals. You can easily check by looking at our bugs & discussion pages & replies (note that we are a small team & don't have support staff). We usually respond within a day or two, usually much less:
stoicfaux - It really depends. Inside MS we have ppl who live & die by their IDE and those who rarely use VS and some that use it primarily only when debugging. You should use whatever you like & makes you productive.
As far as the IDE not being able to do completion, renaming, etc. check out these short videos that cover those topics:
AC - those are all good questions. Let me ask you one:
Would you want VS to:
1. Run natively on Linux or
2. Run on Windows but easily support gcc, etc & cross compile to Linux
?
#1 is extremely difficult & costly. #2 is technically possible, but I have no idea what the interest level would be. Naturally it would only appeal to those who like using IDE's as opposed to editor+shell.
If a cross-compiling, MacOS / Linux targeting VS (with the compiler/libs of your choice) is something people may be interested in, I can certainly take that msg back to relevant teams.
AC - thanks for the heads up. I can assure you that I've never talked to or met those guys. I guess I better do that (you'd think we'd be a bit more coordinated than that...). This project was pretty much organic & self-started in the Technical Computing Group (the team that does HPC, Cluster Computing, etc stuff).
rann - you are correct. This briefly saw the light of day as part of IronPython Tools, but was never really RTM'd. PTVS is a drastically changed/improved version that adds profiling, MPI & Cluster Debugging, multiple interpreter support, etc.
I just checked ironpython.codeplex.com - it looks like it's been downloaded about 650K times. The usage we've seen has been primarily by folks who require a good impedance match with.Net & a lot of embedded scripting eg Rhino3D drawing package. But of course compared to CPython the usage is extremely small.
AC - brim4brim is correct. The plug-in itself is OSS, but our little group has zero influence on the other parts of VS. Well, who knows, if this becomes a wild success, maybe the rest of VS will follow & open source itself (LOL). So technically you're correct that the entire thing isnt OSS. But people are free to whatever they want with, customize, do a Ruby plug-in. We know of at least two companies that are copying the code to do some TBA products.
At the very least it's out in the wild now & if someday MS cancels us, the community can continue to use/improve it.
ByOhTek - If auto-complete, intellisense, etc are important to you, you should definitely check out PTVS. It's one of its strong points I'd say. Here's short video overview of the Editing experience:
Specifically wrt your point re Python + C++, we're doing some work in the next version to make multi-lingual projects even better (especially in the area mixed mode debugging). If this is important to folks, please upvote the feature on pytools.codeplex.com. Thanks.
bigsexyjoe, that's a good question. It's not "MS" that's wants feedback. It's the 3 ppl that work on the project that want feedback. 99.99% of MS doesnt even know we exist:)
Yes, we can go to an MS forum & get nice pats on the back, but we figured you guys will give us some honest feedback we can't get anywhere else.
jesfetzik is correct. You can install it into normal VS, or the "Integrated Shell" which essentially turns this into a "Python VS Express"... but also note that if you're a student, startup, etc you can pretty get the full versions for free.
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Joe, I'm really sorry that VS2008 isn't supported. If you can, open a new feature request on the codeplex site & up vote it. If enough people want it, perhaps we can do something about it. thx.
That's a great question. Answer: we don't know.
From day 1 we wanted to make this a community driven project, the current plan is release it, add a bunch of features for 1.1 & 2.0 and see where it goes. Maybe it'll fizzle out, maybe it'll take off & then the big cheeses want to put it in the box (this will require giving CPR to the legal dept 1st).
It's not clear that being "in the box" is necessary is a great thing as it'll reduce our ability to do rapid releases (we had our Alpha in Jan & RTM'd in August).
Short answer: community decides.
vivek - Note that if you have a large source base (eg 100+ MBs) such as Enthought or ActiveState distro, it'll take about 10-15 mins for the database to be generated. Hang in there...
1. :)
2. List of things we don't have:
Marketing rep; Doc person (you can probably tell by looking at our site!); Release manager; PR person; I18N support; Product Manager;
PS Thanks - if this is successful, hopefully mgmt will support more of these types of projects.
poena.dare - regarding Guido: He actually likes us!
We were at PyCon and he stopped by our poster session, asked a whole bunch of questions, was very engaging & then went and tweeted about PTVS. I should frame that tweet...
AC - absolutely, one of our aims was to provide a zero cost version. If you install the Integrated Shell + PTVS, you're in business. Just add a Python interpreter of your choice & you're set.
AC - your point is well taken. With a language like Python your need for a full blown IDE is reduced. I've found that using an IDE really comes down to whether the learning curve is worth it or not... there are cases like navigating a large new project, graphical debugging, completion, mixed mode or multi-lingual debugging, etc can benefit from IDE support. Is it absolutely necessary? No at all. As mentioned in another thread, even inside MS some ppl live inside VS 24X7, some just use it for the debugger & use vi/emacs otherwise... to each their won.
wrt creating a thick layer between you & your code, we've tried to avoid some of that. PTVS doesnt mess w your application directory structure, the editor stays out of your way (there's even a vi add-in!), etc. check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoGsSlrxKk
Note that cross-plat minimal IDE/REPL's like ipython.org now have syntax highlighting, completion, inline graphics, etc. as well. If don't want a full blown IDE but still a Python REPL on steroids, give ipython a shot. It has impressive interactive parallel computing features as well.
AC, siride is correct that it would be a massive undertaking with a dubious payoff.
However, imho having a VS that can let you target Linux & MacOS using your compiler/libs/runtime of choice isn't too far fetched.
I can confess that while at Sun, some devs used VC++ for productivity reasons & then recompiled using the highly optimizing (but much slower) sparc compilers...
>This is just a cheap attempt to steal potential Android developers
Of all the things PTVS has been accused of, this is a first :).
> The only way you guys can return to being the platform of choice is to have the biggest app store.
I personally agree with you 100%. There's been lots of rumors of a Win8 AppStore, tho even we don't get much info. Waiting till the BUILD conference to hear more. Would i like to see hobbyists and serious devs make $ on the Win8 AppStore with Python? You bet. You shouldn't even have to use PTVS... sadly, we're not an approved language (keeping fingers crossed).
AC - PyCharm is an awesome Python IDE. big thumbs up from us. If you require a cross-plat IDE, it's a great choice.
Regarding responding to stuff quickly - I can't speak for other projects, but that's been one of our goals. You can easily check by looking at our bugs & discussion pages & replies (note that we are a small team & don't have support staff). We usually respond within a day or two, usually much less:
http://pytools.codeplex.com/discussions
http://pytools.codeplex.com/workitem/list/basic
stoicfaux - It really depends. Inside MS we have ppl who live & die by their IDE and those who rarely use VS and some that use it primarily only when debugging. You should use whatever you like & makes you productive.
As far as the IDE not being able to do completion, renaming, etc. check out these short videos that cover those topics:
Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoGsSlrxKk
Refactor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HBb4995noE
AC - those are all good questions. Let me ask you one:
Would you want VS to:
1. Run natively on Linux or
2. Run on Windows but easily support gcc, etc & cross compile to Linux
?
#1 is extremely difficult & costly. #2 is technically possible, but I have no idea what the interest level would be. Naturally it would only appeal to those who like using IDE's as opposed to editor+shell.
If a cross-compiling, MacOS / Linux targeting VS (with the compiler/libs of your choice) is something people may be interested in, I can certainly take that msg back to relevant teams.
AC - thanks for the heads up. I can assure you that I've never talked to or met those guys. I guess I better do that (you'd think we'd be a bit more coordinated than that...). This project was pretty much organic & self-started in the Technical Computing Group (the team that does HPC, Cluster Computing, etc stuff).
MM - you're right... f'd up. English as a 2nd language... too much of a /. noob to see if it's fixable.
Actually that's a hilarious idea. Mind if i steal it for our group's T-shirt?
rann - you are correct. This briefly saw the light of day as part of IronPython Tools, but was never really RTM'd. PTVS is a drastically changed/improved version that adds profiling, MPI & Cluster Debugging, multiple interpreter support, etc.
re your wish list: I hear you :)
Re IronPython & F#:
I just checked ironpython.codeplex.com - it looks like it's been downloaded about 650K times. The usage we've seen has been primarily by folks who require a good impedance match with .Net & a lot of embedded scripting eg Rhino3D drawing package. But of course compared to CPython the usage is extremely small.
re F# - it's actually used by a lot of Quants... and it just made it into the top 20 "TIOBE" language popularity index (not exactly scientific...). Either way, F# really is an awesome language. Many of the cooler features of C# started out in F#. One of my favorites, Units of Measure: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/andrewkennedy/archive/2008/08/29/units-of-measure-in-f-part-one-introducing-units.aspx
Well, I thought it was funny :).
Kervin is correct: you can use the "Integrated Shell" with PTVS plugged into it. This basically gives you a "VS Python Express".
Note that if you're a student or startup you can get most VS stuff for free (see the installation page).
AC - brim4brim is correct. The plug-in itself is OSS, but our little group has zero influence on the other parts of VS. Well, who knows, if this becomes a wild success, maybe the rest of VS will follow & open source itself (LOL). So technically you're correct that the entire thing isnt OSS. But people are free to whatever they want with, customize, do a Ruby plug-in. We know of at least two companies that are copying the code to do some TBA products.
At the very least it's out in the wild now & if someday MS cancels us, the community can continue to use/improve it.
ByOhTek - If auto-complete, intellisense, etc are important to you, you should definitely check out PTVS. It's one of its strong points I'd say. Here's short video overview of the Editing experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoGsSlrxKk
PyCharm is an awesome Python IDE. If you need a cross plat IDE, PyCharm, PyDev, Wingware, IPython, etc are all pretty good.
PTVS is a Windows only solution, tho it's not that hard to avoid accidentally becoming platform dependent.
When i was working at Sun, we sometimes used VC++ & keeping things cross-plat was pretty easy. With Python it's even easier.
Thanks AC.
Specifically wrt your point re Python + C++, we're doing some work in the next version to make multi-lingual projects even better (especially in the area mixed mode debugging). If this is important to folks, please upvote the feature on pytools.codeplex.com. Thanks.
bigsexyjoe, that's a good question. It's not "MS" that's wants feedback. It's the 3 ppl that work on the project that want feedback. 99.99% of MS doesnt even know we exist :)
Yes, we can go to an MS forum & get nice pats on the back, but we figured you guys will give us some honest feedback we can't get anywhere else.
jesfetzik is correct. You can install it into normal VS, or the "Integrated Shell" which essentially turns this into a "Python VS Express"... but also note that if you're a student, startup, etc you can pretty get the full versions for free.