aimed at me i suspect
Yeah i run things not 100 percent required
Just not anything that needs a constant web connection - i work in a company that has a fair use internet policy i helped write - personal use is accepted within guidelines - which are being ignored and will result in this being removed.
Dont dare called me a hypocrite when you DONT HAVE THE BALLS TO POST UNDER A USER NAME
And re read my post moron i was talking about PRODUCTION SERVERS which is what this guy is in the shit about.
im guessing that this is aimed at my earlier comment
dont trivialise the realities we work in - get a job in a corporate MIS dept and then tell me your opinion - spend a few years fixing pointless fuck ups caused by users who wanted that game, reparing viruses that they were warned about.
More still YOU prove to me that an attachment called naked wife is in ANY WAY work related. When a user is warned NOT to do something and then does it anyway and costs the organisation money it called carelessness and unwillingness to follow instructions and it has consequences - you dont ever get the choice of rules you follow - you cant say i will follow that one about not stealing money but i will look at this porno picture.
This is from someone who spent 36 hours at his desk rebuilding servers because people could not be fucked reading warning emails about the melissa virus - cost to us - only a few million bucks.
So yeah we sack you for opening shit you have been told not to - and as someone who has to fix the mess i could give a fuck what you did in the past - nothing gives you a free pass to ignore what you are told - thats called EMPLOYMENT
Yous installed Seti@Home on any of MY servers i would take great pleasure in slowly cutting off your balls with a plastic knife.
I can guarantee you one thing - you would never ever work in any position of trust in any IT capacity for any major bank ever again - thats the sad think - how easy people piss their careers up a wall.
Those of you who are in school or not employed in a corporate role should pay attention to this message that is being given - not just by me - when you work for any employer (and a University is an employer - if you get paid to do it then you are employed) you have a duty of trust - a large amount of power is being placed in your hands - power over confidential information and files - user accounts - financial records and much more.
This trust exists as your employer expects you NOT to make changes to his mission critical systems without following proper procedures and permissions - most organisations call it change control.
Even if you are employed as a SysAdmin you dont automatically inherit the right to do what you see fit - you are expected to behave within the guidelines the organisation expects you to work in and not act outside of them.
Thats whats wrong here - the person in question may have done this in the best of intentions - he may not have caused damage BUT he was trusted not to do this sort of thing (and believe me he would have been) and he did it - end of story - fired - learn a lesson.
Does he deserve to go to Jail - IMHO no
Does he deserve a fine - IMHO not that much
But he commited the act in a State which has laws and they believe he broke those laws by his actions.
This is what we call consequences.
What he did was what we call unproffesional
the rest is a matter of perspective - unfortunatley the state and the university have a different perspective to him.
I have said before i have a policy of dismissing any of my Admin Staff who install unapproved software on systems regardless of reason. Someone emailed me and called me an asshole.
Well the fact is i have never sacked anyone because none of my staff have ever betrayed the trust i have in them - i work in a banking environment and this sort of behaviour just would not happen - the reason is they are all proffesionals.
Dan - good point but thats a bit different to system admin and network integrity
However i would clarify that i dont believe he deserves Jail for this - he lost his job and thats a bad enough punishment as it isnt that hard for prospective employers to figure out. Maybe if the software caused damage then their should be a charge for that - that would be between him and his former employer.
My comment was aimed at the 'he can do whatever he wants' types - he cant.
seriously - call someone you know and trust and ask them to remove it OR call your boss and admit it but be nice and ask him to remove it. This is much smarter than letting them find it.
Of course there is NO business reason why this is here but whats he going to do fire you ? most companies wont take legal action without a good reason.
his employment contracts would spell this out and give him a document to sign stating that he understood the security policy - this is legally construed as a warning and no further is neccesary unless specified in the policy (and i bet its not)
In the real world of employment in MIS we dont send warning letters to mom - we just sack you and if we have to we sue you.
We require all users to sign a legal statement to the effect that they are aware that the installation of non company approved software or applications is strictly forbidden and the penalties include but are not limited to instant dismissal, recovery of costs to rectify, legal costs, legal action and or criminal charges.
All staff MUST sign this before they are given access to the network environment and it is updated as things change and staff informed.
The fact is these systems are the property of the company you work for NOT your personal property and thus you have no legal right if you install something you are not supposed to.
I have rebuilt countless PC's - 'i just had to install X game or X program', i constantly have my staff rebuidling notebooks (mainly to remove porn dialers or trojans downloaded from the internet), i have to run a complex mail firewall to keep out VBS viruses, trojans, porn and other crap, yet you think this is not a problem ?
My company does sack staff for this - we sacked 10 staff for the naked_wife virus alone - Misuse of company systems is misuse - there is no GPL or free speech justification.
(this does not apply to internet usage - we still have a fair use policy on that for personal usage - but judging by the usage report im looking at now that will change as well - yes appears playboy.com is now a work related site)
Think about this - SOMEONE has to remove the software and fix any damage you caused. Break the rules - pay the price. Maybe the price is a bit harsh (and do any of you seriously think he will go to jail for 15 years ? come on grow up)
This is the same as the Killustrator debate - you cant just ignore the rules just because you dont care about them or think that you live in some magical world where they dont apply to you - society lives by rules - no rules no society.
Legally this is incitement to commit a federal offence under US law - not to mention fucking stupid - this is a community for comment not a hax0r group - encouraging people to mailbomb companies is not only stupid its irresponsible and donwright moronic. Constructive comment is one thing - this is another
I for one dont want people to equite/. with hacked or mailbombed - if that were to become the case then say goodbye to this forum folks.
They knew it and they wanted it - what better way to get people to notice your product and use it - you can bet that their installed base just went up by at least a factor of 10 yesterday - this is a setup as they KNEW the name would get them this sort of shit.
It doesnt matter if there are over 15 million illustrator pages or products. The Adobe Trademark applies to anything which can be deemed an unnaceptable use of THEIR trademark - that is you can have a company which sells illustrator bubblegum but you can't sell illustrator software - they own the trademark for that name in that application.
they all make money off of GPL licenced software (and some of them even make a profit)
This is a redundant argument and would not last 10 minutes in a law court - just because you dont make money DOES NOT mean you can ignore copyright, trademark, fair use and other laws (laws you know them - thought some of you think they dont apply)
This discussion has gone on long enough dont you think ?
You know i am forced to agree somewhat but this does not mean microsoft as a company are 'rather' that they see some business opportunity in it. The problem that i see (and the thing that saddens me the most) is that the OSS movement is constantly being riven apart by holy wars and flame battles over the smallest issue. Linux has an incredible future as an OS - it can change many things but that does not mean that MS has to die and that bll gates is satan - get over this hurdle and we can change the world - if only we stop worrying about the competition.
Does your momma know you use language like that ?
Now run on back to your chat session and tell all the L337 HaX0rz you know how you azzraped us all with your lightning fast wit.
one thing. Next time have the guts to use a name when you post this sort of unmitigated shit.
Anyone else out here who does this stuff for a living a bit put off by this book ?
This industry is full of underqualified people already with huge egos and little practical skill.
Im in australia and we seem to be slowly passing the 'i have an MCSE that daddy paid for so im more L337 than you' phase and experience and skills are becoming important again.
There was a time when 5 years solid experience as a Network Admin or Server Specialist didnt count for as much as the loser who had 3 months experience but a nice shiny MSCE he paid cash for.
What do you think ? does the world need more under qualified consultants with paper quals and no real experience ?
BTW i could tell you some horror stories, like the kid with a 4 year honors degree in InfoTech who claimed to have experience in MS networks and an MCP in Win95 whon upon being told he would be working on an NT Domain Rebuild Project asked 'Whats a domain ?' (i AM serious - he didnt know and he PROVED it)
Comments - come on what do we say ?
IMHO if you think microsoft is scared by open source software then you have gone open source in the head - they could not really give a shit about it - their power is in the corporate desktop marketplace and large environments - they are entrenched and as someone who works in them i can tell you they will NEVER EVER become linux users in the main - sure they use it for Web Serving, Datanases, SAA Pooling and other apps but NEVER on a desktop - its not stable or strong enough for the average half wit (pity as i kinda like it a lot)
good point but then i suspect adobe could claim some or all of the following
1. a similar product to their product with similar functions
2. has a similiar interface to thier product
3. Is obviously designed as a freeware / low cost competitor to an existing product thus damaging and undermining their business and product line
4. Damaging to their existing copyright and causing confusion in the marketplace
5. Also under the GPL they can go thru the code and check that no where is there any evidence of code resue or copy
6. From memory the fact that it is a non profit or for profit company makes no difference when it comes to copyright and trademark violation
and many others im sure
(there is, i think, something about the feel and intent of the product - the way it works and looks but i cannot remember)
The point i think that needs to be made is that obviously the university cannot afford to pay lawyers in defence of the product and i have said before i suspect that the product was named this (in light of the 'what are they going to do, sue me' comment posted earlier) to attract controvesy and attention and build its profile and user base.
How many of you knew about this product yesterday ?
How Many just downloaded and or installed it after seeing this article ?
How many new users does that mean for K Office ?
He cant just say its a parody he has to prove it and i suspect he cant as i suspect this product works an awful lot like illustrator as i also suspect it was reverse engineered from it - therefore he has no legs for a parody claim.
They havent actually served papers - only sent a threat letter - if the product DOES NOT infringe on copyright (and as the author works for a University he should be able to find someone to give him a free legal opinion on it) then he has nothing to fear.
Actually i would do nothing until they receive official communication from Adobe's in house counsel - large companies DO NOT function like this - they mostly handle this stuff in house and would send a letter first BEFORE paying a lawyer to do this.
Dont pay them a cent - the wording of this letter looks odd - they have no legal grounding to demand destruction of the package unless they provide proof of copyright infringement in actual code - they can not ask for lists of users - this is protected information under trade practices law - in fact all they could do would be ask them to stop using the name or change the name to avoid further action.
A reputable law firm would also NEVER start our asking for money for costs in first letter - this would not be done as it smacks of confronation and i could see it making the average company angry from the start out.
These guys are trolls looking for some easy cash - DONT pay them a cent - get your Legal Advisor (and i am sure you have or know one or can find one) to contact Adobe or Adobe GMBH directly.
Adobe Systems GmbH
Ohmstraße 1
D-85716
Unterschleißheim
Deutschland
Tel: +49 89 31 70 50
Fax: +49 89 31 70 57 05
Now can we all stop working ourselves into a lather here OK
hmmm well in that case lets all hate them then - cant make money out of a business can you now ? (geez Redhat and SUN must be enemy number one then ?)
Note to World - Not everyone thinks linux is the second coming (i know its scary but its true i promise:0 )
Adobe are just trying to protect their trademarks in most cases - in this case i suspect they have no idea who these "lawyers" are - i suspect they are ambulance chasers
Slashdot Mirror
aimed at me i suspect
Yeah i run things not 100 percent required
Just not anything that needs a constant web connection - i work in a company that has a fair use internet policy i helped write - personal use is accepted within guidelines - which are being ignored and will result in this being removed.
Dont dare called me a hypocrite when you DONT HAVE THE BALLS TO POST UNDER A USER NAME
And re read my post moron i was talking about PRODUCTION SERVERS which is what this guy is in the shit about.
whos a troll then ?
im guessing that this is aimed at my earlier comment
dont trivialise the realities we work in - get a job in a corporate MIS dept and then tell me your opinion - spend a few years fixing pointless fuck ups caused by users who wanted that game, reparing viruses that they were warned about.
More still YOU prove to me that an attachment called naked wife is in ANY WAY work related. When a user is warned NOT to do something and then does it anyway and costs the organisation money it called carelessness and unwillingness to follow instructions and it has consequences - you dont ever get the choice of rules you follow - you cant say i will follow that one about not stealing money but i will look at this porno picture.
This is from someone who spent 36 hours at his desk rebuilding servers because people could not be fucked reading warning emails about the melissa virus - cost to us - only a few million bucks.
So yeah we sack you for opening shit you have been told not to - and as someone who has to fix the mess i could give a fuck what you did in the past - nothing gives you a free pass to ignore what you are told - thats called EMPLOYMENT
MIS manager in banking enviromnment
Yous installed Seti@Home on any of MY servers i would take great pleasure in slowly cutting off your balls with a plastic knife.
I can guarantee you one thing - you would never ever work in any position of trust in any IT capacity for any major bank ever again - thats the sad think - how easy people piss their careers up a wall.
singwitch is right - the troll is YOU
Those of you who are in school or not employed in a corporate role should pay attention to this message that is being given - not just by me - when you work for any employer (and a University is an employer - if you get paid to do it then you are employed) you have a duty of trust - a large amount of power is being placed in your hands - power over confidential information and files - user accounts - financial records and much more.
This trust exists as your employer expects you NOT to make changes to his mission critical systems without following proper procedures and permissions - most organisations call it change control.
Even if you are employed as a SysAdmin you dont automatically inherit the right to do what you see fit - you are expected to behave within the guidelines the organisation expects you to work in and not act outside of them.
Thats whats wrong here - the person in question may have done this in the best of intentions - he may not have caused damage BUT he was trusted not to do this sort of thing (and believe me he would have been) and he did it - end of story - fired - learn a lesson.
Does he deserve to go to Jail - IMHO no
Does he deserve a fine - IMHO not that much
But he commited the act in a State which has laws and they believe he broke those laws by his actions.
This is what we call consequences.
What he did was what we call unproffesional
the rest is a matter of perspective - unfortunatley the state and the university have a different perspective to him.
I have said before i have a policy of dismissing any of my Admin Staff who install unapproved software on systems regardless of reason. Someone emailed me and called me an asshole.
Well the fact is i have never sacked anyone because none of my staff have ever betrayed the trust i have in them - i work in a banking environment and this sort of behaviour just would not happen - the reason is they are all proffesionals.
The conclusions from this should be obvious
Dan - good point but thats a bit different to system admin and network integrity
However i would clarify that i dont believe he deserves Jail for this - he lost his job and thats a bad enough punishment as it isnt that hard for prospective employers to figure out. Maybe if the software caused damage then their should be a charge for that - that would be between him and his former employer.
My comment was aimed at the 'he can do whatever he wants' types - he cant.
pray
seriously - call someone you know and trust and ask them to remove it OR call your boss and admit it but be nice and ask him to remove it. This is much smarter than letting them find it.
Of course there is NO business reason why this is here but whats he going to do fire you ? most companies wont take legal action without a good reason.
OH if this HAS caused damage you are screwed.
Agreed totally
i would have sacked him - that simple - then again i dont hire sysadmins with god complexes so maybe i wouldnt have hired him.
as an MIS manager its this simple - my environment, my rules, my way, the highway - your choice.
his employment contracts would spell this out and give him a document to sign stating that he understood the security policy - this is legally construed as a warning and no further is neccesary unless specified in the policy (and i bet its not)
In the real world of employment in MIS we dont send warning letters to mom - we just sack you and if we have to we sue you.
And that is the point of the whole story
We require all users to sign a legal statement to the effect that they are aware that the installation of non company approved software or applications is strictly forbidden and the penalties include but are not limited to instant dismissal, recovery of costs to rectify, legal costs, legal action and or criminal charges.
All staff MUST sign this before they are given access to the network environment and it is updated as things change and staff informed.
The fact is these systems are the property of the company you work for NOT your personal property and thus you have no legal right if you install something you are not supposed to.
I have rebuilt countless PC's - 'i just had to install X game or X program', i constantly have my staff rebuidling notebooks (mainly to remove porn dialers or trojans downloaded from the internet), i have to run a complex mail firewall to keep out VBS viruses, trojans, porn and other crap, yet you think this is not a problem ?
My company does sack staff for this - we sacked 10 staff for the naked_wife virus alone - Misuse of company systems is misuse - there is no GPL or free speech justification.
(this does not apply to internet usage - we still have a fair use policy on that for personal usage - but judging by the usage report im looking at now that will change as well - yes appears playboy.com is now a work related site)
Think about this - SOMEONE has to remove the software and fix any damage you caused. Break the rules - pay the price. Maybe the price is a bit harsh (and do any of you seriously think he will go to jail for 15 years ? come on grow up)
This is the same as the Killustrator debate - you cant just ignore the rules just because you dont care about them or think that you live in some magical world where they dont apply to you - society lives by rules - no rules no society.
Legally this is incitement to commit a federal offence under US law - not to mention fucking stupid - this is a community for comment not a hax0r group - encouraging people to mailbomb companies is not only stupid its irresponsible and donwright moronic. Constructive comment is one thing - this is another
/. with hacked or mailbombed - if that were to become the case then say goodbye to this forum folks.
I for one dont want people to equite
They knew it and they wanted it - what better way to get people to notice your product and use it - you can bet that their installed base just went up by at least a factor of 10 yesterday - this is a setup as they KNEW the name would get them this sort of shit.
Pointing out the obvious
It doesnt matter if there are over 15 million illustrator pages or products. The Adobe Trademark applies to anything which can be deemed an unnaceptable use of THEIR trademark - that is you can have a company which sells illustrator bubblegum but you can't sell illustrator software - they own the trademark for that name in that application.
Try reading some trademark law
Which doesn't apply in this case so there fore is a redundant comment
Ok then explain the following
Corel Linux
Redhat
VmWare
SUN
they all make money off of GPL licenced software (and some of them even make a profit)
This is a redundant argument and would not last 10 minutes in a law court - just because you dont make money DOES NOT mean you can ignore copyright, trademark, fair use and other laws (laws you know them - thought some of you think they dont apply)
This discussion has gone on long enough dont you think ?
You know i am forced to agree somewhat but this does not mean microsoft as a company are 'rather' that they see some business opportunity in it. The problem that i see (and the thing that saddens me the most) is that the OSS movement is constantly being riven apart by holy wars and flame battles over the smallest issue. Linux has an incredible future as an OS - it can change many things but that does not mean that MS has to die and that bll gates is satan - get over this hurdle and we can change the world - if only we stop worrying about the competition.
This isnt a jihad its an OS
HMMMM
Does your momma know you use language like that ?
Now run on back to your chat session and tell all the L337 HaX0rz you know how you azzraped us all with your lightning fast wit.
one thing. Next time have the guts to use a name when you post this sort of unmitigated shit.
Anyone else out here who does this stuff for a living a bit put off by this book ?
This industry is full of underqualified people already with huge egos and little practical skill.
Im in australia and we seem to be slowly passing the 'i have an MCSE that daddy paid for so im more L337 than you' phase and experience and skills are becoming important again.
There was a time when 5 years solid experience as a Network Admin or Server Specialist didnt count for as much as the loser who had 3 months experience but a nice shiny MSCE he paid cash for.
What do you think ? does the world need more under qualified consultants with paper quals and no real experience ?
BTW i could tell you some horror stories, like the kid with a 4 year honors degree in InfoTech who claimed to have experience in MS networks and an MCP in Win95 whon upon being told he would be working on an NT Domain Rebuild Project asked 'Whats a domain ?' (i AM serious - he didnt know and he PROVED it)
Comments - come on what do we say ?
yup creative intelligent and well reasoned comment from the smart zone
you so l337 you scare me
IMHO if you think microsoft is scared by open source software then you have gone open source in the head - they could not really give a shit about it - their power is in the corporate desktop marketplace and large environments - they are entrenched and as someone who works in them i can tell you they will NEVER EVER become linux users in the main - sure they use it for Web Serving, Datanases, SAA Pooling and other apps but NEVER on a desktop - its not stable or strong enough for the average half wit (pity as i kinda like it a lot)
good point but then i suspect adobe could claim some or all of the following
1. a similar product to their product with similar functions
2. has a similiar interface to thier product
3. Is obviously designed as a freeware / low cost competitor to an existing product thus damaging and undermining their business and product line
4. Damaging to their existing copyright and causing confusion in the marketplace
5. Also under the GPL they can go thru the code and check that no where is there any evidence of code resue or copy
6. From memory the fact that it is a non profit or for profit company makes no difference when it comes to copyright and trademark violation
and many others im sure
(there is, i think, something about the feel and intent of the product - the way it works and looks but i cannot remember)
The point i think that needs to be made is that obviously the university cannot afford to pay lawyers in defence of the product and i have said before i suspect that the product was named this (in light of the 'what are they going to do, sue me' comment posted earlier) to attract controvesy and attention and build its profile and user base.
How many of you knew about this product yesterday ?
How Many just downloaded and or installed it after seeing this article ?
How many new users does that mean for K Office ?
Get the point ?
I rest
He cant just say its a parody he has to prove it and i suspect he cant as i suspect this product works an awful lot like illustrator as i also suspect it was reverse engineered from it - therefore he has no legs for a parody claim.
They havent actually served papers - only sent a threat letter - if the product DOES NOT infringe on copyright (and as the author works for a University he should be able to find someone to give him a free legal opinion on it) then he has nothing to fear.
Actually i would do nothing until they receive official communication from Adobe's in house counsel - large companies DO NOT function like this - they mostly handle this stuff in house and would send a letter first BEFORE paying a lawyer to do this.
Dont pay them a cent - the wording of this letter looks odd - they have no legal grounding to demand destruction of the package unless they provide proof of copyright infringement in actual code - they can not ask for lists of users - this is protected information under trade practices law - in fact all they could do would be ask them to stop using the name or change the name to avoid further action.
A reputable law firm would also NEVER start our asking for money for costs in first letter - this would not be done as it smacks of confronation and i could see it making the average company angry from the start out.
These guys are trolls looking for some easy cash - DONT pay them a cent - get your Legal Advisor (and i am sure you have or know one or can find one) to contact Adobe or Adobe GMBH directly.
Adobe Systems GmbH
Ohmstraße 1
D-85716
Unterschleißheim
Deutschland
Tel: +49 89 31 70 50
Fax: +49 89 31 70 57 05
Now can we all stop working ourselves into a lather here OK
hmmm well in that case lets all hate them then - cant make money out of a business can you now ? (geez Redhat and SUN must be enemy number one then ?)
:0 )
Note to World - Not everyone thinks linux is the second coming (i know its scary but its true i promise
Adobe are just trying to protect their trademarks in most cases - in this case i suspect they have no idea who these "lawyers" are - i suspect they are ambulance chasers